On my 2005 Monster 620...So last time I bled my brakes I just hooked a clear hose up to the bleeder and put the other end in a bottle then pumped the brake lever until the reservoir was almost empty then filled the reservoir with new fluid and pumped it again till the color coming out of the hose looked like the new fluid not darker like the old fluid. Then I kept pumping and filling till no more bubbles were coming down the hose in to the bottle. Seemed to work fine and I've ridden it that way for a while with no issue but now I need to do my clutch and I'm having second thoughts about this method for the clutch. Should I be dumping the old fluid in the bottle out and filling the catch bottle with new fluid and submerging the hose in new fluid because of possible draw back up the hose? (I didnt see much being drawn back up as I was using a clear hose). Should I just buy a mity-vac and completely drain the fluid first? If my method is sound can I do the clutch the same way?
Quote from: Duck Off on September 07, 2013, 01:39:27 PM
On my 2005 Monster 620...So last time I bled my brakes I just hooked a clear hose up to the bleeder and put the other end in a bottle then pumped the brake lever until the reservoir was almost empty then filled the reservoir with new fluid and pumped it again till the color coming out of the hose looked like the new fluid not darker like the old fluid. Then I kept pumping and filling till no more bubbles were coming down the hose in to the bottle. Seemed to work fine and I've ridden it that way for a while with no issue but now I need to do my clutch and I'm having second thoughts about this method for the clutch. Should I be dumping the old fluid in the bottle out and filling the catch bottle with new fluid and submerging the hose in new fluid because of possible draw back up the hose? (I didnt see much being drawn back up as I was using a clear hose). Should I just buy a mity-vac and completely drain the fluid first? If my method is sound can I do the clutch the same way?
You can do it do it either way, pumping and filling until clear fluid comes out or getting the MV and doing a reverse bleed to fill or use it to draw from reservoir to catch bottle . . .
Yes you can do it the way you did the brakes , that's what I have done
I usually suck one reservoirs worth thru with the vacuum bleeder, then pump another through to flush the slave as best possible by pulling in the lever with the bleeder closed, opening the bleeder and then closing again then releasing the lever. that way you suck new fluid into the slave and push the increasingly diluted fluid out with each squeeze.
not sure if it works, but it feels like a good idea.
just be careful with the coffin res masters that you don't squirt fluid everywhere when you pull the lever in. that sucks.
Bled and flushed the clutch as well as I could (only once though) but still cant find neutral. I'm doing the zip-tie overnight technique tonight. Debating whether or not to just put on the Oberon and bleed and bleed and see if I can remedy this with a new clutch slave or possibly have the Ducati Dealership put the new clutch slave on (they charge $100 and quoted me 45min to install the Oberon Clutch Slave and bleed it). My concern after reading about all the people with APTC clutches that have had this same problem after putting on the Oberon Clutch Slave. Not sure I want to go through all bleeding only to end up taking it to the dealership in the end as opposed to just having them do it right. If I do it myself should I pull out the push rod wipe it down grease it and replace the O Rings? Or is that not really necessary. I would think it would be part of the routine maintenance every X number of miles if it was really required. I did partially pull out the push rod (about 5 inches) when I removed the clutch slave to powder coat the clutch cover. Wonder if the O ring slipped on it?
Quote from: Duck Off on September 08, 2013, 06:06:48 PM
Bled and flushed the clutch as well as I could (only once though) but still cant find neutral. I'm doing the zip-tie overnight technique tonight. Debating whether or not to just put on the Oberon and bleed and bleed and see if I can remedy this with a new clutch slave or possibly have the Ducati Dealership put the new clutch slave on (they charge $100 and quoted me 45min to install the Oberon Clutch Slave and bleed it). My concern after reading about all the people with APTC clutches that have had this same problem after putting on the Oberon Clutch Slave. Not sure I want to go through all bleeding only to end up taking it to the dealership in the end as opposed to just having them do it right. If I do it myself should I pull out the push rod wipe it down grease it and replace the O Rings? Or is that not really necessary. I would think it would be part of the routine maintenance every X number of miles if it was really required. I did partially pull out the push rod (about 5 inches) when I removed the clutch slave to powder coat the clutch cover. Wonder if the O ring slipped on it?
I have the Oberon and have no issues, either with the coffin or thr RCS master . . . I just loosened the 3 screws, placed teh Oberon, put line on slave, bled . . .
check the rod . . .
No oil leak anywhere so I'm not sure if the pushrod O rings are an issue but I guess it wouldnt hurt to take it out check it and clean it off while installing the Oberon.
Don't know if this will help but perhaps you can look into speedbleeders; JMTC.
Patience, padawan. I've done my clutch a couple of times. Takes a few days.
The ziptied lever trick can work wonders on pesky clutch hydraulics. I don't know if it really matters, but I usually try to rotate the bars to get the MC as high as possible. Those tiny bubbles need to rise up. Give the line a rap/vibration along its length to dislodge air bubbles that might be clinging to the interior.
If you recently changed brands/weight of engine oil, that could also make finding neutral difficult.
The little clutch pushrod O-rings on my M695 square off every year or two and I get a minor leak at the slave. I now keep spares on hand and just change them out when it's convenient.
BK
Realized today that finding 1st is also a problem and downshifting just drops straight down to 2nd no matter if you're in 3,4,5 or 6 (although I don't think in getting 6th either). I'm thinking of buying a harbor freight Mity-Vac and just doing it right. If I do go the M-vac route am I supposed to drain ALL the fluid with the Mity-Vac then fill the reservoir and bleed?
I want to point out that prior to this I had no issues with my clutch what-so-ever. Loved the APTC clutch. Super easy to shift up or down. Unlike some stories I've heard didnt matter if the bike was warm or cold shifted perfectly every time.
I don't think its the bleed you did , but pulling out the rod may have nicked something .
I have done the Duc and Gixxer many times like how you would bleed your brakes with no issues whatever ( did you try the zip tie ? )
Did the zip tie no change. Need to try rebleeding as I only bled it once. I also switched from Spectrol semi-synth 10w-40 to Amsoll full-synth 10w40 oil. Clutch feels a bit mushy and light so I'm gonna try another bleed and examine the push rod.
Quote from: Duck Off on September 09, 2013, 05:57:09 PM
Did the zip tie no change. Need to try rebleeding as I only bled it once. I also switched from Spectrol semi-synth 10w-40 to Amsoll full-synth 10w40 oil. Clutch feels a bit mushy and light so I'm gonna try another bleed and examine the push rod.
but you're using DOT4 in the clutch, right?
Quote from: Duck Off on September 09, 2013, 06:14:37 PM
Yes Sir
threw me off with the 10w40 comment
we have the same bike, I changed levers with OEM slave, had to take the 'whatchamacallit' screw all the way out to be able to shift . . . then replaced the slave with the Oberon . . . as long as the 'whatchamacallit' screw was out, I have no issues[if you look at pic from my bike you'll notice I have teh coffin master on clutch side] . . . RCS will be reinstalled when correct line gets here, my screwup
If I remember correctly you had your cover or covers off for powder coating.
Make sure your pushrod is not binding up on sealant/gasket/paint.
5th to 2nd sounds weird - does the shift lever move properly and freely? Mushy light lever (beyond normal mushy light for APTC) does sound like it needs a better bleed.
The ziptie thing takes overnight at least.
BK
Quote from: Darkmonster620 on September 09, 2013, 06:25:18 PM
threw me off with the 10w40 comment
we have the same bike, I changed levers with OEM slave, had to take the 'whatchamacallit' screw all the way out to be able to shift . . . then replaced the slave with the Oberon . . . as long as the 'whatchamacallit' screw was out, I have no issues[if you look at pic from my bike you'll notice I have teh coffin master on clutch side] . . . RCS will be reinstalled when correct line gets here, my screwup
What's the watchamacallit Screw?
I failed to mention that the brake fluid I used although proper Dot4 was opened last year when I bled my brakes and although it was sealed as tightly as I could by hand it has been sitting in my garage all winter and summer so I'm gonna refill and bleed with a new bottle of Dot4 in case any moisture has been absorbed by that previously opened bottle.
the screw that pushed the rod . . still can't remember the name ..... [bang]
you haven't taken the slave out, correct?
I have not but I was ready to swap out the slave tonight and just bleed it. The part I'm always unsure of using this method is should I be completely draining the fluid then adding new fluid or drain most then add new fluid on top before ever really going empty in the reservoir. I thought you never wanted to empty in the reservoir as you then suck air in to your lines.
I just pour in the new one and pump the old one out at the same time . . . try once one with the OEM slave if it fixes, then swap the slaves . .. I am sort of mind blocked at this time . .. sorry
the only time I had an issue was when I installed the adjustable lever
So I rented a mity-vac from Autozone then I sucked all the fluid out of the reservoir first. Then I drained most of the fuild from the OEM slave with the Mity-Vac. Then I followed the directions that came with the Oberon for install. Very easy and straight forward. It did say to fill the new Oberon clutch slave with fluid once it was mounted prior to transferring the banjo bolt/hose connection from the old to the new which I did. Now when I try and bleed the clutch I get nothing but air bubbles and my reservoir doesnt seem to drain at all. Whether I use the Poor Mans Bleed Technique or the Mity-Vac I get nothing but bubbles (loooks like boiling water in that hose). What's weird too is after a bunch of Mity-Vac suction (which causes a lot of bubbles that continue for a little while) if I re-tighten the bleeder nut assuming this would stop the bubbles I continue to get bubbles till they're done! I'm not completely putting a lot of torque on the bleeder bolt when tightening it but I could swear that in the past when I tightend even if there were bubbles I assumed they couldnt escape. But in the past I never used a Mity-Vac this only happens when I bleed with the Mity Vac. Arggghh... [bang] What Gives???
one more thing...There was a little "about 1 inch" metal rod that came with the new slave. I assumed this was the extension rod they refferred to in the directions for pre-2000 models (mine is 2005). So I did nothing with that. Was that in error?
So when I bleed using the Mity-Vac I get lots of bubbles but very little fluid. When I bleed using the "poor Mans" technique I get very little bubbles but more fluid. I'm confused... ???
If I'm reading this correctly, it sounds like you removed all the fluid from the system and now have to get rid of all the air? Not to be an ass, but you're putting way too much thought and effort into this, it really is a simple process.
I re-read your initial post and I think you're missing a step in the bleed sequence. What you should be doing is this: squeeze the lever, open the bleed, close the bleed, release the lever. Repeat until you get clean fluid out of the bleeder and no bubbles. If you have completely drained the system this will take some time and you'll likely have bubbles trapped up high in the master. Zip-tying the lever to the bar overnight is one way to get those, I've found that a little pressure on the lever and tapping the master with the handle of a screwdriver will also dislodge them, and you'll see them pop up in the reservoir. Don't let the reservoir get too low and just keep doing the four steps and you will get it bled. I can't speak for the Mity Vac as I've never used one or seen the need.
Agree with above post
A couple of things , banjo is tight ? new copper washers ?
So I bleed same as above but I pump pump pump, hold lever, open bleed screw ( lever retracts ) hold lever, tighten screw pump pump pump repeat ..
also you can bleed at the banjo to eliminate any air in the rezzy do as above but crack the banjo instead of the bleed screw
then do a normal bleed .........this is messy watch your paint ..lots of rags
Banjo might be tight .. I didn't torque to a spec just by hand. But I did finally get the might vac to start bleeding it. I wasn't using the rubber L shaped adapter (so your fluid doesn't have to go up and fight gravity. ) With that on I was able to bleed about 3 coffins through. Clutch feels good now and it shifts up just fine but down shifting is still messed up. Better than before but still not right. I seem to only be able to hit 2nd or 3rd when down shifting and I can feel its not all the way down in the shifter. Once I come to a complete stop I can get it down in to 1st and once I shut the engine off I can find neutral.
More bleeding?
Too much fluid? How high should it be in my reservoir? I got a small bubble in the sight glass but its pretty small.
Do I need to bleed the Master Cylinder? Seems like a messy pain with no bleeder valve. Not even sure how I'd go about this.
Overnight zip tie tonight.
Taking it in for the 12k service in 2days so I could have the dealer resolve it but I can pretty much count on it costing me an extra $100 on top of $800 for the 12k service so I'd rather do it myself.
hi mate,
sorry i can't help you with your problem just yet... i'm a bit confused as to what you did exactly..... the mityvacs can be a bit of an issue and personally i don't like them...
on the moto, i use a large syringe and reverse flush the system... it works real well as you evacuate the air in the syringe and line FIRST, and then push the fluid from the lowest point (slave) to the highest point (MC).... in this way, you are working with the natural tendency of the bubbles to rise and not fighting against it...
when the MC fills up with fluid and no bubbles emanate from the aperture, you are done [beer].
best of all, the 100cc syringe and line was like $5 on ebay. too easy.
I'm making a guide on timing belts at the moment, but i'll aim to post one about flushing and bleeding in that case....
sorry, i couldn't be more help to you now.
Quote from: wankski on September 13, 2013, 04:21:45 AM
hi mate,
sorry i can't help you with your problem just yet... i'm a bit confused as to what you did exactly..... the mityvacs can be a bit of an issue and personally i don't like them...
on the moto, i use a large syringe and reverse flush the system... it works real well as you evacuate the air in the syringe and line FIRST, and then push the fluid from the lowest point (slave) to the highest point (MC).... in this way, you are working with the natural tendency of the bubbles to rise and not fighting against it...
when the MC fills up with fluid and no bubbles emanate from the aperture, you are done [beer].
Thanks that would be great!!
best of all, the 100cc syringe and line was like $5 on ebay. too easy.
I'm making a guide on timing belts at the moment, but i'll aim to post one about flushing and bleeding in that case....
sorry, i couldn't be more help to you now.
To bleed the MC/Rezzy do the same as you would at the nipple
Pump pump pump , crack the banjo fluid will ouzz out ( very Messy ) lever will retract to bar hold close up banjo repeat 4x times
this bleeds the MC
then you have to bleed the line as normal
you should have zero bubbles in the MC , level should be 3/4 - 7/8 full
Well I figured out what the problem was. I just needed to ride it for a bit and take it through all the gears. I did that today and after about 15 minutes it started getting better and after a half hour it was even better. I started to think it had to do with the bike being warmed up but I rode it again later after it had completely cooled down and it just continued to get better until it was finally back to normal even at a cold start. My theory on what happend is this: I had drained all the oil when I removed the clutch and alt/sator covers for powder coating. I left the oil plug off and let it drip and drip for days and it sat like that with no clutch cover and no oil for over two weeks. I think that the clutch plates just needed to get properly bathed in warm oil and were just sticking together after sitting like that with no oil and no cover for so long. Before that long ride I was just taking it around the block for test rides and when it wouldnt shift properly I would bring it back home and assumed something was wrong with the clutch slave. So happy to have it all up and going again. Thanks to everyone for all your help. This forum rocks.
Quote from: Duck Off on September 13, 2013, 05:19:04 PM
Well I figured out what the problem was. I just needed to ride it for a bit and take it through all the gears. I did that today and after about 15 minutes it started getting better and after a half hour it was even better. I started to think it had to do with the bike being warmed up but I rode it again later after it had completely cooled down and it just continued to get better until it was finally back to normal even at a cold start. My theory on what happend is this: I had drained all the oil when I removed the clutch and alt/sator covers for powder coating. I left the oil plug off and let it drip and drip for days and it sat like that with no clutch cover and no oil for over two weeks. I think that the clutch plates just needed to get properly bathed in warm oil and were just sticking together after sitting like that with no oil and no cover for so long. Before that long ride I was just taking it around the block for test rides and when it wouldnt shift properly I would bring it back home and assumed something was wrong with the clutch slave. So happy to have it all up and going again. Thanks to everyone for all your help. This forum rocks.
Weird, mine sat almost 2 years with a almost 3 year old oil . . . and when I had my covers painted, it had no oil for about one month . . never had this issue . . .that was with the OEM slave, then I replaced the levers with adjustable ones . . .then I had issues . . .
Great to hear !!