-Constantly fouling vertical cylinder plug (black)
-Runs particularly poor at high speed (misfire, popping) -- Improves short term with a new plug
-Backfires through pipes upon shut down (bang-flame) not sure that is technically referred to as a backfire..)
- Black exhaust smoke from the offending cylinder pipe.
Thank you...
The valves would have to be so tight that it affected compression. How long since the last adjustment?
Can you do a compression or leakdown test?
Sounds more like a carburetor issue to me.
Gotta agree with DP.
I replied to your other thread. A valve adjustment is a good baseline however to even everything out before a carb tune. How long ago is a good question.
Could be too lean up high and too rich down low. With your mods your carbs need a tune.
What set up you got internally on your FCRs? (floats/clips/jets/air screws)
Are your filters dirty?
How long has this been going on?
since fiddling with the carbs?
since changing to flat slides?
since new exhaust?
out of the blue?
"What set up you got internally on your FCRs? (floats/clips/jets/air screws)"
Fuel mix screw: 3/4 turn
Slow air 1 - 1 1/2 turns
Float ht 9 mm
Main jet 155
Main air jet 200
Slow jet 60
Needle EMT
Needle clip 3rd pos.
"Are your filters dirty?"
Filters are clean.
"How long has this been going on?
since fiddling with the carbs?
since changing to flat slides?
since new exhaust?
out of the blue?"
Pretty much out of the blue. But here's something I just realized;
I noticed the engine running rough and misfiring a bit out of nowhere a few weeks ago. Traced the problem to a loose fitting spark plug cap. I replaced the entire wire and cap with cheap AutoZone 7mm wire and a generic cap. The cap only fits my plug with the metal "head" that you normally unscrew and remove left intact. Could this cheap auto parts store wire possibly be the cause? I can't see imagine why or how it could...
Koko: the Dyno was just a power run, nothing more. If I scanned and posted the results would that help you help me in any way?
Its worth a look at that dyno run. If there is an a/f trace on it even better.
Your special exhaust may be asymetric enough to affect fuel requirements for each carb.
Definately could be an ignition issue with one cylinder. Cables, plug, etc.
One cylinder may have valves out of spec.
What are the two plugs colors?
Quote from: koko64 on October 19, 2013, 09:34:23 AM
Its worth a look at that dyno run. If there is an a/f trace on it even better.
Your special exhaust may be asymetric enough to affect fuel requirements for each carb.
Definately could be an ignition issue with one cylinder. Cables, plug, etc.
One cylinder may have valves out of spec.
What are the two plugs colors?
Offending cylinder: black, burned looking plug. Other plug is light gray.
ah, there is an A/F read out...is this legible if you zoom in or do I need to properly scan it?
(http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g234/247prophet/dynorun_zpsf9d7c7a0.png~original)
Got the pic ok now. Yep. Go to 160 main jets for sure. It's too lean at WOT where the peak power should be.
Now to sort that fouled plug issue. I would change plugs and check all ignition wiring again. I would prefer to run the same plug wires on each cylinder. Is the fouled plug wet or dry?
Interesting to hear from members who have these types of exhaust and if they needed different slow jets for each cylinder. I 've never dealt with those pipes.
I would check carb synch and ensure your valve adjustments are ok.
Which plugs are you running? If you have resistor plus and resistor wire, you will have issues IIRC, almost all modern autos use resistor wire.
Quote from: Dirty Duc on October 19, 2013, 12:53:48 PM
Which plugs are you running? If you have resistor plus and resistor wire, you will have issues IIRC, almost all modern autos use resistor wire.
I am using R plugs, the Champion RAHC (cross reference to NGK DCPR8E). Using the cheaper Champions bc of how fast I go through them. I am def becoming more suspicious of my wire, just ordered a pair of NGK CR5's.
Fantastic deal on em' right here btw...http://www.summerlandautosports.com/shop/item.aspx?itemid=2483 (http://www.summerlandautosports.com/shop/item.aspx?itemid=2483)
So I took my bike into the shop for a valve adjustment prior to my Mexico ride (both cylinders need it). I had not yet installed the main jets. Got a call yesterday from them, they say the vertical coil is causing an intermittent misfire. (I had told them about the fouled vertical plug and asked them to investigate). I brought them replacements Chris Kelley had sent me (thanks Chris!!!) and asked them to also perform another dyno run, this time with the new coils, and attempt to improve the HP. (they are being extremely stubborn about this for some reason) I pointed out how the A/F numbers from the previous run looked way too lean at WOT according to multiple experienced techs, and his response seemed to make sense...paraphrasing here;
"Where the measurement is taken will affect the A/F read out. In your case, it was taken at the end of the exhaust, this is why it appeared lean. Only the tech performing the dyno run should speak to the results, as only the tech knows where the measurement was taken"
- Is it common for a coil to act up intermittently, and only cause a misfire at a certain RPM range? :-\
I would still like to get more top end from this motor, but they seem to feel the jetting is fine. So it looks like I'll just pay them for the valve adjustment and have a go at it myself. I'm curious about the old coils, going to send them back to Chris and see if he's interested in testing them.
Quote from: Buck Naked on November 14, 2013, 01:18:03 PM
"Where the measurement is taken will affect the A/F read out. In your case, it was taken at the end of the exhaust, this is why it appeared lean. Only the tech performing the dyno run should speak to the results, as only the tech knows where the measurement was taken"
First, did they say what kind of dyno and measuring they are using?
If they are using a wideband O2, unless you have an exhaust leak, I call shenanigans for several reasons.
1: If they were getting reversion from the outside air, they wouldn't have been able to tune it reliably at all.
2: If the numbers are consistently off for a given distance from the exhaust valve, how does the tech know how much to "fudge" the numbers to get a "good" AFR? Did they measure your exhaust (not somebody else's that kind of looked like it).
3: Again I cite Brad Black (although I paraphrase), "Customers like the response from a Duc that is tuned a little richer on the dyno then common wisdom would suggest." (no FHE on this here, but if the trace on that dyno sheet is at all representative, you should have a "flat" spot between 6500 and 7500 rpm... and looking at the trace a little closer, I shouldn't be surprised it feels slow. 14.5 is a good part throttle cruise AFR, not a good WOT power AFR)
4: If your coil was intermittently malfunctioning (which I'll leave on the table for more experienced people to talk about) then the AFR trace should have shown some obnoxious fluctuation (unless they turned up the automatic smoothing too high, see point 2)
The point of a dyno is to get relatively scientific numbers so you can usefully change things to make it better. If you can't show the customer scientific numbers, then you probably don't know what you are doing, and I wouldn't trust you to tune my lawnmower. And that is why I prefer to break and "fix" my own toys.
Quote from: Dirty Duc on November 14, 2013, 04:02:14 PM
First, did they say what kind of dyno and measuring they are using?
If they are using a wideband O2, unless you have an exhaust leak, I call shenanigans for several reasons.
1: If they were getting reversion from the outside air, they wouldn't have been able to tune it reliably at all.
2: If the numbers are consistently off for a given distance from the exhaust valve, how does the tech know how much to "fudge" the numbers to get a "good" AFR? Did they measure your exhaust (not somebody else's that kind of looked like it).
3: Again I cite Brad Black (although I paraphrase), "Customers like the response from a Duc that is tuned a little richer on the dyno then common wisdom would suggest." (no FHE on this here, but if the trace on that dyno sheet is at all representative, you should have a "flat" spot between 6500 and 7500 rpm... and looking at the trace a little closer, I shouldn't be surprised it feels slow. 14.5 is a good part throttle cruise AFR, not a good WOT power AFR)
4: If your coil was intermittently malfunctioning (which I'll leave on the table for more experienced people to talk about) then the AFR trace should have shown some obnoxious fluctuation (unless they turned up the automatic smoothing too high, see point 2)
The point of a dyno is to get relatively scientific numbers so you can usefully change things to make it better. If you can't show the customer scientific numbers, then you probably don't know what you are doing, and I wouldn't trust you to tune my lawnmower. And that is why I prefer to break and "fix" my own toys.
I'm going to 'distill' these comments to...
[cough]bullshit[cough] ;)
if they're getting a lean reading due to the sample tube location they need to do something about the sample tube. introducing error into an experiment is not what you generally set out to do.
i'd still be running 165 or so anyway. and smaller pilots.
+4 on all that. Really does sound like ass covering.
If those guys cant give you a true reading, they should have told you when they saw the mods. They still took your money though!
Just put the bigger main jets in. Too rich might cost five bucks in plugs, but too lean could cost you alot more (and as Lt Snyder says," you'll hate life"). Its the easiest jet to change and if you dont like it you can change back easily.
Enough said about "where the measurement is taken", Nate summed it up best. As far as coil failure goes sounds like you might just have a weak coil. Different load will require stronger spark. Easy to pick up with a scope. Run engine. Pull plug wire and continually increase gap between plug and wire until you read maximum voltage, a new stock coil will put out between 19 and 20K volts. I never see scopes used in motorcycle shops though.
Quote from: Dirty Duc on November 14, 2013, 04:02:14 PMIf the numbers are consistently off for a given distance from the exhaust valve, how does the tech know how much to "fudge" the numbers to get a "good" AFR? Did they measure your exhaust (not somebody else's that kind of looked like it).
YES, That's the first doubt that crossed my mind.
Quote from: koko64 on November 14, 2013, 06:31:54 PM
+4 on all that. Really does sound like ass covering.
If those guys cant give you a true reading, they should have told you when they saw the mods. They still took your money though!
To be fair, I can only say these guys are potentially incompetent but not crooks. They haven't charged me a cent for the dyno time or "tuning". Now, I can see where this exhaust may make getting an accurate reading difficult, it has an "S" bend from one cylinder where it enters the can. But I guess that dude didn't wanna admit that, hence the bullsh**ing. I'm not averse to putting the jets in myself, but I wanted them to, since they have the dyno and could tune it. But I guess they can't tune it, lol.
Quote from: howie on November 14, 2013, 10:08:32 PM
Enough said about "where the measurement is taken", Nate summed it up best. As far as coil failure goes sounds like you might just have a weak coil.
That's another thing I asked, why wasn't that discovered the last time they had the bike?
To clarify, they've had my bike on the dyno twice now and have not "tuned" or changed any of my settings. It's beginning to look like they don't properly know how to! [Dolph] [laugh]
Thanks ya'all. :)
Ok guys I could use some fast input because things just stopped being funny.
These guys called again. Said that the vert cylinder is still carboning up despite the replaced coil. I'm not surprised at that bc I didn't think there was anything wrong with the coil (although they're still insisting the coil was bad. Whatever)
Now they need my permission to check if the timing is off, as this is they're next hypothesis as to why the cylinder is carboning up.
???
I'm into it for $400 at this point...$250 for the valve adjust plus $150 in "diagnostics" aka them trying to figure out WTF is wrong.
Questions: if my timing is off, wouldn't the bike run like absolute shit, then proceed to wreak havoc on the valves and pistons, rather than run good for 100 miles, foul up a plug, run good for 100 miles, repeat, etc?
Quote from: koko64 on October 18, 2013, 03:21:02 PM
Gotta agree with DP.
I replied to your other thread. A valve adjustment is a good baseline however to even everything out before a carb tune. How long ago is a good question.
Could be too lean up high and too rich down low. With your mods your carbs need a tune.
This. I'm far from a carby guru, but this sounds like the most reasonable explanation.
Assuming they are talking about ignition timing and not valve timing (you are talking about valve timing):
I don't know what you are running for ignition control, but IIRC the timing is essentially fixed for the early two valves. Either way, I don't believe there is a way to separate the two cylinders (either both would be bad or both would be good).
Didnt know you haven't paid yet or that they still have the bike, so fair enough I take that back (at present). So they did the valve adjustment?
Do these guys usually work on Ducatis? I would think about that re the valve adjustment. It would also be best for someone who knows carbs and FCRs to tune them. Some dirtbike shops may be very familiar with FCRs which gives options.
Its at a Ducati dealership/service dept.
They are currently suggesting the carbon build up could be being caused by incorrect VALVE timing.
This is what has me all FUBAR at the moment.
Ok then, the valves are done.
The valve timing being out means not enough to blow up your motor and the timing dots line up from the factory, so stock oem. They can be out from spec and one cylinder from the other. Brad dialed the timing on my bike and speeddog just did his and they run smoother. You can set them to spec or advance them like Brad which improves response and got me 2 hp. Maybe it may help a little with your groovy exhaust to even things up. Edit: Actually, your exhaust may also, in theory, require different cam timing on each cylinder to accommodate the asymmetric design. Imagine the time and money doing that on the dyno!. If they want to dial in the cams I would have them advanced ala Brad.
It depends how much you want to spend. Edit :Get a price on that, checking and adjusting.
I think your funky exhaust means you need a different setting on the slow fuel circuit on the offending cylinder. I cant remember if your carbs are synched either.
Me, I'd fit bigger main jets and open the slow air jet screw a quarter turn on the fouling cylinder and try that.
Apparently I have other concerns aside from the carbs needing to be properly tuned. Just as soon as the bike is back in my possession, I will be swapping out the jets and adjusting the slow air screw. But in the meantime, the shop has determined the cause of my vert plug fouling to be a worn valve guide. So I'm looking at a new valve guides plus having the seats cut.
I'm not too happy with myself for not noticing this when I was in the best possible position to have it taken care of...out of the engine and in my hands. [bang]
So....can anyone tell me if these 2 different heads would swap into my '96 engine? seems a better way to go than paying for valve guides and seating...man this is soooo fu**d :(. One claims is from a 93-95 Elefant the other vintage 98...
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1998-era-Ducati-900-Monster-30120181CA-vertical-cylinder-head-with-guides-NEW-/161131495496?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item25842f8048&vxp=mtr (http://www.ebay.com/itm/1998-era-Ducati-900-Monster-30120181CA-vertical-cylinder-head-with-guides-NEW-/161131495496?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item25842f8048&vxp=mtr)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1993-1995-Ducati-900-Elefant-30120431A-horizontal-cylinder-head-with-guides-NEW-/171153727088?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item27d98e9e70&vxp=mtr (http://www.ebay.com/itm/1993-1995-Ducati-900-Elefant-30120431A-horizontal-cylinder-head-with-guides-NEW-/171153727088?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item27d98e9e70&vxp=mtr)
I do think they are telling me the truth btw...
with some of the symptoms running through my brain (smoke from vert.cylinder exhaust, random poor running issues, occasional hard start, backfire...meh. I really should have gone over that motor much better.
Both of those heads are stamped with a W which signifies smaller valves.
I believe the 96 heads on your motor should be stamped V which signifies larger valves.
You don't want to mix and match.
FWIW I don't think the bad guides are the root cause of your issues.
Quote from: ducpainter on November 15, 2013, 11:10:04 AM
Both of those heads are stamped with a W which signifies smaller valves.
I believe the 96 heads on your motor should be stamped V which signifies larger valves.
You don't want to mix and match.
FWIW I don't think the bad guides are the root cause of your issues.
Perhaps not...but this plug fouling came from nowhere. That tells me maybe it *isn't* the carbs, since it was running fine for awhile, albeit low on power. And now I can rule out wires and coils. So, that all adds up to: ???
Quote from: Buck Naked on November 15, 2013, 11:17:28 AM
Perhaps not...but this plug fouling came from nowhere. That tells me maybe it *isn't* the carbs, since it was running fine for awhile, albeit low on power. And now I can rule out wires and coils. So, that all adds up to: ???
Has the shop done a leakdown or compression test?
Quote from: ducpainter on November 15, 2013, 11:35:07 AM
Has the shop done a leakdown or compression test?
Yes, leakdown. I don't have the results here with me. I'll be talking to them more soon.
Was this test just performed or had they done it earlier in the diagnosis process?
Quote from: ducpainter on November 15, 2013, 12:04:17 PM
Was this test just performed or had they done it earlier in the diagnosis process?
They did
not do it earlier in the process. That's one of the things I was upset about when I paid them a visit, Was being billed diagnostic time to chase down a supposedly bad coil (replacing of which didn't solve my problem - so I doubt my coil was *really* an issue) Then being sold a valve job... then being billed to check cam timing (timing was just FINE btw)....and THEN being told about my valve guide issue.
Typing all this out...I find myself getting pissed off again, lol. But we came to an agreement that I feel is pretty fair....so I'll bite my tongue for now....and we shall see what happens next.
BN, you seem like a pretty handy guy. Why didn't you check out this stuff yourself? Time constraints?
Plugs dry sooty or wet oily? Dry sooty is fuel, wet oily is oil from valve guides. Any measurements?
I think you're in that situation lots of people find themselves in, where they don't know enough to call bullshit or to do it themselves, but you're not getting anywhere either.
when we can teleport, this situation will be greatly reduced. but until then, you're kind of stuck unless you take it back and fix it yourself.
BNs in a tight spot alright.
They've made a number of incorrect assessments on the way to the latest conclusion,. Not confidence inspiring. From Howie's point they missed the plug reading it seems. Maybe the top guy looked at the job in the end?
BN, anyone else within an hour ( or two or three) you could truck the bike to? It might be worth it for peace of mind.
Quote from: memper on November 15, 2013, 05:37:57 PM
BN, you seem like a pretty handy guy. Why didn't you check out this stuff yourself? Time constraints?
Thanks but I'm not. I was able to put it back together and it ran. I didn't want to send off the heads to have the seats cut and I didn't want to buy new pistons or rings. I wanted to believe everything was ok before I put it back together. I was lazy, cheap and pretty stupid. I do wish I hadn't brought it in though...because at this point I could have disassembled it again and just installed brand new heads, and not be helpless and wondering if I'm being royally make the beast with two backsed. And it would *still* be cheaper and I'd be way less pissed off.
I brought it in because I thought a proper valve adjustment would sort it out. I couldn't imagine why the carbs would be picking on only one cylinder. I thought it would be 3 days and $250.
Quote from: koko64 on November 15, 2013, 08:16:57 PM
BNs in a tight spot alright.
They've made a number of incorrect assessments on the way to the latest conclusion,. Not confidence inspiring. From Howie's point they missed the plug reading it seems. Maybe the top guy looked at the job in the end?
BN, anyone else within an hour ( or two or three) you could truck the bike to? It might be worth it for peace of mind.
Thanks Koko. You posted right when I did. I'm going to sleep, I partook in several glasses of whisky tonight. I might have a better idea of how to approach this tomorrow.
Hope the morning brings fresh perspective.
Dont be hard on yourself, you were correct to get the valves checked, its the "baseline" thing to do on a used Ducati. Like Brad said, wish we were closer to come round with tools and beers to help a mate out.
The shop appears to have taken the scenic route to this conclusion and thats not your fault either.
If speeddog, Duckstew or someone else trustworthy is within a few hours, I would put the bike in a pick up, grab some beers and make an appointment for an assessment of the bike. It's worth it for a straight answer. Make a day of it. Drop the bike off early then go out for the day with your lady for example.
I have Brad and three other guys I trust within an hour if I'm stuck on a job, but I understand not everyone has that luxury. I used to live in the country, so I understand the issue of distance.
Be sure of this, the bad running at higher revs is indicative of a lean condition that needs to be resolved and that fouled plug is a seperate issue with a seperate cause, be it oil or fuel fouling, or an intermitant ignition fault. The leakdown test should have been definative on that, but there's alot of water under the bridge on diagnosis that would sap my confidence.
We'll see ya tomorrow.
So I'm thinking...I can get my bike back from these people and negotiate a modest sum of $$ lost...
I'm considering packaging just the heads and sending them off to someone to be rebuilt. Which is what I should have done in the first place. What kind of high performance work could I have done on the heads if I want to stick with my OEM pistons? Does something like the MBP treatment require an overbore?
'tanks again ya'll.
If you do head work you'd see the best gains by at least dropping in a set of high comp pistons.
That will create other considerations such as high octane fuel availability, or possibly an ignitech unit to retard the timing enough to avoid pinging, or both.
Koko and Brad can advise you better.
Quote from: ducpainter on November 17, 2013, 09:24:27 AM
If you do head work you'd see the best gains by at least dropping in a set of high comp pistons.
That will create other considerations such as high octane fuel availability, or possibly an ignitech unit to retard the timing enough to avoid pinging, or both.
Koko and Brad can advise you better.
I've always wondered, do the std bore high comps literally "drop in"?
Does anyone run high comps with std timing, using only high octane fuel?
The reason I didn't do high comps before was because of all these concerns. I want to stick with what my mechanical skill set allows: following basic instructions and turning wrenches.
Cheapest and easiest way out is getting the heads repaired only. You can keep the oem pistons and use cheap fuel. The barrels stay put and a buddy holds them in place when removing the heads.
I think leave it stock or go for the kind of package DP mentioned (and I pmed you about). The compression change raises issues with fuel and ignition, but you get a different bike, very torquey. It will never be a high hp bike with sohc and two valve heads.
If you are low on bucks at present you can keep it simple and keep fuel costs down.
I cant see the pictures for some reason.
As Howie asked, was the plug wet and oily or dry and sooty?
Quote from: Buck Naked on November 17, 2013, 12:25:33 PM
Got your PM, cheers Tony. [beer]
Oh and I found one of my plugs. This is what I was dealing with within a few miles of putting in a new one. Any thoughts?
(https://mail-attachment.googleusercontent.com/attachment/u/0/?ui=2&ik=5a35b8986b&view=att&th=14267b915762d2f6&attid=0.1&disp=inline&realattid=1451983805280681984-1&safe=1&zw&saduie=AG9B_P9zDnHWXtMVicLQDR8EruDn&sadet=1384719691875&sads=WAapKB09Tmr8PKxMwZrpan0mgqE&sadssc=1)
(https://mail-attachment.googleusercontent.com/attachment/u/0/?ui=2&ik=5a35b8986b&view=att&th=14267b85a9ad3aab&attid=0.1&disp=inline&realattid=1451983754917576704-1&safe=1&zw&saduie=AG9B_P9zDnHWXtMVicLQDR8EruDn&sadet=1384719905826&sads=c2zxKJb4No83ZbO8gzw-U3fC9rc)
(https://mail-attachment.googleusercontent.com/attachment/u/0/?ui=2&ik=5a35b8986b&view=att&th=14267b75fbac64d1&attid=0.1&disp=inline&realattid=1451983685262770176-1&safe=1&zw&saduie=AG9B_P9zDnHWXtMVicLQDR8EruDn&sadet=1384719938964&sads=VzA0H049RfLzvDZzJ_ZHHU8sBuY)
You can't use a secure http addy to display a pic. It has to be a public addy.
To be honest I can't tell. :/. But it looks like oil.
Ok, let's try again...
(http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g234/247prophet/plug1_zpse537ed18.jpg~original)
(http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g234/247prophet/plug2_zps0dc3dd5f.jpg~original)
(http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g234/247prophet/plug3_zpsffd2d49a.jpg~original)
???
Im looking on my cell phone.
Brad, Howie, speeddog you near a PC/laptop?
Looks like an oil glaze burnt on around the upper porcelain and wet oil deposits on cooler parts of the plug. The electrodes look oil stained. The mixture may have been lean and hot enough at higher revs/large throttle openings to glaze the oil rather than leave it wet. It just doesnt have that rich, dark, "velvety" texture of too much fuel. Cant see into the plug base for the mixture trace there. The light is different in each photo, one looks richer, one ok and one lean midway down the porcelain. When I use an led flashlight it has that effect.
What do you think?
Hard to tell from pics, those are good pics though.
Those plugs are very new.
Tough to tell due to that as well.
Im looking at them from a long way away, so I need your opinion guys. ;D
I'm seeing what looks like a grey pubic hair hanging off the end of the plug in the third photo!
Seriously tho Koko - I think your diagnosis is spot on - looks like burned oil on the end of the porcelain to me. There does appear to be a grey "velvety" texture to the bottom part under the oil glaze.
Some oil some glaze. IMO, the glaze probably from partial misfire under load. Like Speeddog said, hard to tell for sure in spite of the excellent photos. To get a glaze like that I think the ignition has to be pretty good. Was that "grey pubic hair" on the plug when it came out.
I would want to see what a set of new plugs does first before breaking the bank.
The grey pubic hair is from carrying the plug in my (apparently grey pube filled) pocket.
That was a brand new plug, taken out after about a 5 mile blast down the hwy and a 6 mile return trip through stop and go traffic. Around 10 miles total on the plug. Then it sat in my car's ashtray for about a week and my pocket for a few minutes.
I know it's pretty much moot at this point, was just curious what the experts thought of it, if anything. This is what happens, the bike runs great for about ten miles or so, then this.
I would like to see the carbs tuned and jetted correctly. You know what Im going to say about that. A too big slow jet can foul plugs and cause misfiring on the slow part of the journey. Too lean main jets can give the other misfiring, backfiring , flames out pipe symptoms at the faster part of your journey. How you are riding when the symptoms occur matters. A carb tuner for that job. Strange jetting high and low for pods could give you symptoms like you have. You can get strange plug patterns. Globs of oil "washed" off the bore, etc can happen. An experienced carb guy with the bike in his hands will figure this out. If you can get the bike to someone like that. If not I can give you a base setting and you would have to buy some jets (inluding the 165s Brad suggested).
A question, how easily does the bike start? Need the accelerator pump to prime it?
There may be a case of an ignition component fail after riding awhile when it heats up (on the end of the journey?). I wonder what a test of ignition pickups, etc would reveal?.
Howie could walk you through that. The coils are strong though, as howie pointed out. Did the shop do that stuff?
As howie pointed out no expensive headwork until correct jetting is established and an ignition fault is ruled out.
Quote from: koko64 on November 18, 2013, 10:25:09 AM
I would like to see the carbs tuned and jetted correctly. You know what Im going to say about that. A too big slow jet can foul plugs and cause misfiring on the slow part of the journey. Too lean main jets can give the other misfiring, backfiring , flames out pipe symptoms at the faster part of your journey. How you are riding when the symptoms occur matters. A carb tuner for that job. Strange jetting high and low for pods could give you symptoms like you have. You can get strange plug patterns. Globs of oil "washed" off the bore, etc can happen. An experienced carb guy with the bike in his hands will figure this out. If you can get the bike to someone like that. If not I can give you a base setting and you would have to buy some jets (inluding the 165s Brad suggested).
A question, how easily does the bike start? Need the accelerator pump to prime it?
There may be a case of an ignition component fail after riding awhile when it heats up (on the end of the journey?). I wonder what a test of ignition pickups, etc would reveal?.
Howie could walk you through that. The coils are strong though, as howie pointed out. Did the shop do that stuff?
As howie pointed out no expensive headwork until correct jetting is established and an ignition fault is ruled out.
[thumbsup] Heat from lean can cause the glazing.
I've decided to disregard everything from the Dealership tests except the dyno run (which I viewed the printout). Just too confusing.
With an overview of the symptoms, leaving out ignition for the moment. If the bike starts witout a/pump priming then jetting changes are required at both ends of the range. If the idle micture screws can be turned all the way in and the bike still runs, or idles faster, then this confirms too big slow fuel jets.
This could explain the uneven plug color patterns.
If I couldn't find a carb tuner I would buy a bunch of jets from sudco or Powerbarn as they are cheap as chips up there. With pods and a flip up tank it aint gonna get easier.
I pmed BN re jets to possibly buy if he has to do it.
Quote from: koko64 on November 18, 2013, 11:25:39 AM
I've decided to disregard everything from the Dealership tests except the dyno run (which I viewed the printout). Just too confusing.
With an overview of the symptoms, leaving out ignition for the moment. If the bike starts witout a/pump priming then jetting changes are required at both ends of the range. If the idle micture screws can be turned all the way in and the bike still runs, or idles faster, then this confirms too big slow fuel jets.
This could explain the uneven plug color patterns.
If I couldn't find a carb tuner I would buy a bunch of jets from sudco or Powerbarn as they are cheap as chips up there. With pods and a flip up tank it aint gonna get easier.
I pmed BN re jets to possibly buy if he has to do it.
[thumbsup] already have the 162 and 165's.
When you get the bike back, after throwing in the main jets, do this little test.
With the bike warmed up and idling, screw the idle mixture screws in all the way seating them gently. If the bike still runs, or the idle picks up speed, your slow fuel jets are too big. If it falters or cuts out they are in the ballpark at least.
If they are too big, I would get some 52s and 55s to try.
Going back to the original query;
Bent valve(s) could possibly cause these symptoms?
thanks...
you have lint on your electrode. that's your problem.
Quote from: Buck Naked on November 17, 2013, 04:26:26 PM
To be honest I can't tell. :/. But it looks like oil.
Ok, let's try again...
(http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g234/247prophet/plug1_zpse537ed18.jpg~original)
(http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g234/247prophet/plug2_zps0dc3dd5f.jpg~original)
(http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g234/247prophet/plug3_zpsffd2d49a.jpg~original)
???
Everyone else thinks it's pubic hair.
Quote from: Buck Naked on November 20, 2013, 09:54:50 AM
Everyone else thinks it's pubic hair.
must be very light complected... lol
Quote from: Buck Naked on November 20, 2013, 09:42:04 AM
Going back to the original query;
Bent valve(s) could possibly cause these symptoms?
thanks...
if it had a bent valve it wouldn't idle.
sounds like it just needs to be tuned to me. but a leak down test will confirm any sealing issues.
Sorry if it seems like I'm ignoring all of your very helpful suggestions and advice but at this point I've been at the mercy of the dealer, they have both heads off my bike. I need to tread carefully with them unfortunately, frustrating as it is. I can't go back in time and undo bringing it there.
I'm now being told my engine has signs of ridiculously high miles and valves are slightly bent, espec in the vert cylinder.
Everyone here seems to agree the bike just needs to be tuned, and yes it certainly would seem so.
I'm doing my best to take the never ending BS I'm getting from these people and process it into something that actually makes sense, hence why I keep asking redundant questions instead of just TUNING MY DAMN BIKE, which is probably what it needs.
The latest brilliant diagnosis is that "my engine is worn out". That worn valves are making it impossible to carburete correctly therefore I need to have my valves replaced.
Like I said they have my bike in pieces...I never authorized them to do so, but they have me over a barrel. All I can do is try to hustle them into giving me the bike back or miraculously fixing it. The poor service manager is promising not to charge me for all the misdiagostics. I guess we'll see.
But yeah, that's the latest news. I still don't have the bike back and now both heads are removed. Might be almost time for a lawyer.
Tell them to put it back to the state it was when you brought it in...running...not leaking oil...
and get it out of there.
You never authorized any disassembly, and they can't charge you for it or reassembly.
Pay the $250 you spoke of earlier and cut your losses.
BTW...you never posted the results of the leak down test they performed.
Quote from: ducpainter on November 20, 2013, 02:36:52 PM
Tell them to put it back to the state it was when you brought it in...running...not leaking oil...
and get it out of there.
You never authorized any disassembly, and they can't charge you for it or reassembly.
Pay the $250 you spoke of earlier and cut your losses.
BTW...you never posted the results of the leak down test they performed.
I don't have the results. Just got off the phone with the GM. I'll resume this tomorrow after a few [shot]
Quote from: ducpainter on November 20, 2013, 02:36:52 PM
Tell them to put it back to the state it was when you brought it in...running...not leaking oil...
and get it out of there.
You never authorized any disassembly, and they can't charge you for it or reassembly.
Pay the $250 you spoke of earlier and cut your losses.
BTW...you never posted the results of the leak down test they performed.
I'm not sure if I would want to give them the opportunity to make things worse. I would consider showing up with a truck, some friends and assorted containers for the parts and get the bike out of there. Offer them the $250 by certified check or credit card. Do consult a lawyer before following my advice.
good luck!
Brad is correct of course...my bike wouldn't idle or run w/ a bent valve. (my fault...darn long glove fingers)
My mech found me a used valve for $20-30 fyi.
Brad..Howie...Tony...Nate...everyone...
How "true" are the exhaust valves? as in, would you consider 1mm (one) to be severely "bent"? Is there any tolerance whatsoever? In your opinion would a bike start, run, and idle?
"the intake valves were seated well enough, which is why the leakdown test was inconclusive. However your vert exhaust valve is bent by 1mm and we consider that severe." - The technician.
Had a VERY fun convo with the owner of the dealership today. I'm feeling good.
A 1mm bend in an exhaust valve is severe.
As Brad said, it wouldn't idle with a bent valve, and would be very difficult to start.
That statement about the leakdown is a bit odd, as a conventional leakdown test will find issues with intake and exhaust valves, and ring seal.
No details on the leakdown?
[cough]bullshit[cough]
http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/116_0406_cylinder_leakdown_tester/ (http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/116_0406_cylinder_leakdown_tester/)
The second page has the good info.
A properly performed leak down test will detect a bent valve...and would indicate which valve...period. I don't think they did one.
A simple compression test would indicate that cylinder sorely lacking compression...period. The exact issue would not be able to be determined without a teardown. I don't think they did one of those either.
If they had done either of these tests they would have come right out and told you the motor had a problem based on the results of the test.
How did your valves go from 'worn' to 'bent'?
Something is very wrong here.
I wouldn't worry about the cough. seems pretty obvious to me.
really, 1mm is way bent. it tightens closing clearance and opens opening clearance a huge amount too.
Quote from: brad black on November 21, 2013, 01:46:27 PM
I wouldn't worry about the cough. seems pretty obvious to me.
really, 1mm is way bent. it tightens closing clearance and opens opening clearance a huge amount too.
I was told that the valve clearances were checked, and adjusted accordingly. If I'm understanding you correctly Brad, this would be impossible with a valve that is bent 1mm?
The full quote from the email;
"We are proposing that for economical reasons we repair only what is actually broken. Please be aware that the engine has clear signs of wear, with characteristics of a very high mileage motor. What we mean by this is in addition to your broken parts, you have other items in the bike that could be addressed or may need to be addressed eventually in the future. These parts include: piston rings, light scoring on pistons and cylinder walls, wear on con-rod bearings and piston wrist pin bush. These items are within the tolerances that Ducati describes in the service manuals, however they are towards the end of the tolerance range for permissible operating values. While this items do not need replaced currently, they will affect overall performance of the vehicle either way unless completely replaced. To replace all of these parts is obviously a significant cost and one I assume is something you do not want to undertake at this time.momentary pause; a good friend, who was a technician at Cascade Porsche/Audi for ten years, owned World Imports in Kent, OH and has rebuilt dozens of British bikes helped me examine the engine while it was on the bench and is absolutely incenced at this statement. He raved about the condition of the engine and called the above statement "stand operating bullshit" /PAUSE "In regards to the damaged components that are part of what is creating your issues, please review our recommendations as well as the standard procedure in which we perform these tests and actions below. We think this is the most economical way get your bike to the point where it is more efficient and running better than it was when you brought it in. To be clear, this will not be the highest horsepower monster we ever have had, because even in repairing the damage components, the motor still has significant 'wear and tear' as we mentioned above. This is by no means an issue, as that is not your concern, but it is something that we still want to be very upfront and transparent about.
We have found the exhaust valves in both cylinders to be bent and leaking cylinder pressure. In addition, both intake valves are recessed on the valve face and we recommend replacement. The Intakes are seated well enough, giving reason as to why a leak down test did not show blatant valve issues immediately. The vertical cylinder exhaust valve is more bent than the horizontal thus causing fueling and spark plug issues you were experiencing in tandem with your weak coil. Lack of compression and blow back past the valves causes fueling issues in carbs (which are functioning properly). To clarify, a bike can run with valve bent up to 1mm off its seat. Your vertical exhaust valve is bent about 1mm and Stan considers this severely bent.
The diagnostic procedure for these running issues are as follows:
1) Check valve clearances/ cam timing-if valve clearances are good, then move on to further diagnostic. If valves are tight, it will cause running/fueling problems.
2) Inspect Carbs for defects-as mentioned above, issues with valves can cause carb issues and thus why we start with the valve inspection.
3) Leak down test although not always conclusive.
4) Check ignition system
5) Disassembly head(s) to visually inspect for bent or burned valves and damage in the rings, bore and pistons."Guys, thanks again. The posterity of the info in this thread is going to help a lot of people from here on out. I have a suspicion that they are trying to cover their asses with all this talk about how awful my motor looks. I brought them a bike that started well, idled well, and accelerated well. My issues with the power were minor, what I was seeking help with was the fouling vert plug. I'm concerned that they turned my bike into a basket case.
But I'm not sweating things too much *yet*. This forum has given me all the tools I need to proceed. In 37 years very few people have gotten the better of me, and I don't plan on letting it happen now.
hello bucket load of bullshit.
sorry, but that kind of stuff gets to me.
so the engine is in bits? have they removed the rods to give you their assessment of the big end bearings?
I don't really understand how it got to this point.
a leak down test is conclusive. air leaks from the crankcase breather, muffler or carb inlet. simple. you can hear and feel even low leak down. if it had bent valves it would have had a lot of leakdown.
did they give you a measurement on ring end gap?
Quote from: brad black on November 22, 2013, 01:09:39 AM
hello bucket load of bullshit.
sorry, but that kind of stuff gets to me.
so the engine is in bits? have they removed the rods to give you their assessment of the big end bearings?
I don't really understand how it got to this point.
a leak down test is conclusive. air leaks from the crankcase breather, muffler or carb inlet. simple. you can hear and feel even low leak down. if it had bent valves it would have had a lot of leakdown.
did they give you a measurement on ring end gap?
The big end bearing *is* the con rod bearing, yes? How can that be assessed without pulling the engine and opening it up...because AFAIK these asshats only removed the heads.
Yes, the big end is the connecting rod and the cases would need to be split to assess.
The wrist pin is the small end and would require the piston to be removed from the rod to assess.
They're making shit up.
I wonder if the valves are bent now? Get that bike out of there.
Yeah, sorry to see the situation's turned to shit.
I can see you visiting with a pickup full of hardarse mates and taking your bike back.
Once the bike is in your hands you can name and shame these people.
I have a couple buds ready to clock out and show up when I need to. On my way there now with notes and I'm gonna be nice n' calm. They could have picked a wayyyyy easier target than me.
Thanks to all of you I'm getting my bike back today and paying $0. The heads are removed but the engine is in the frame. On my way to rent a Uhaul now.
So...I'm gonna ship these heads off like I should have done from the beginning. Anyone here interested?
THANK YOU ALL SO MUCH!!! :D
Hmmm 944 kit
944 [evil]
JM
meh to 944... if the cylinders still have their nikasil, keeping stock compression means less fussy riding overall...
... me and my old age. :P
Dont listen to that 'ol fart (actually I think I'm older) [laugh].
If the bores are good, but rings end up needing replacing, just get some JE hi comps, heavy duty studs and an Ignitech. Hell, chuck in a light flywheel and have some fun. "Old Chris" has the studs, flywheel and pistons at good prices. ;D
Ship the motor to one our own and you'll be right. [thumbsup]
I did read that the 944 tends to have issues with detonation.
JM
Glad that worked out to your benefit.
Moral of the story that I can glean: keep your bike at home. Buy the necessary tools if you don't have them already. Ask questions here and do your own work.
to check if the valves are sealing, turn the head upside down and fill the chamber with petrol. if the valves are leaking it will run out of the ports.
Quote from: brad black on November 24, 2013, 02:19:02 PM
to check if the valves are sealing, turn the head upside down and fill the chamber with petrol. if the valves are leaking it will run out of the ports.
There was no need. All 4 valves were visibly bent and I could see daylight through where both exhaust valves were (not) seated. How it could have been RIDDEN 30 miles to the dealership in that condition is something I'll never know. [roll]
Quote from: Buck Naked on November 27, 2013, 05:29:08 AM
There was no need. All 4 valves were visibly bent and I could see daylight through where both exhaust valves were (not) seated. How it could have been RIDDEN 30 miles to the dealership in that condition is something I'll never know. [roll]
Does this dealer remove the belts when checking/adjusting valves?
Pretty easy to figure out what happened.
Quote from: ducpainter on November 27, 2013, 10:42:28 AM
Pretty easy to figure out what happened.
They damaged them doing the valve adjust, then tried to cover their asses by screwing me?
I can't prove it, and the shop has not given you leak down or compression test results which were done before the adjust, if my recollection of the timeline is correct.
I believe the tech put the belts back on out of time and bent them.
I think at this point it's best to just move on like you're doing and fix your bike.
You have a good bottom end in that other motor, and if the guides were not cracked you can sell the heads and cylinders separately or as a basket case motor.
Quote from: ducpainter on November 27, 2013, 10:59:03 AM
<snip>
I think at this point it's best to just move on like you're doing and fix your bike.
Not sure that I agree with you. That wouldn't be fair to anyone else that's already been harmed by them, and those that will continue to be.
Quote from: Buck Naked on November 27, 2013, 12:37:01 PM
Not sure that I agree with you. That wouldn't be fair to anyone else that's already been harmed by them, and those that will continue to be.
You can't prove anything.
If you could then I'd agree with you.
They went down multiple paths to troubleshoot the symptom (fouling vert plug), beginning with a base dyno run on to testing the coils, then testing the cam timing (excuse being that the woodruff key; "looked like it had been messed with). Then they checked and adjusted the valve clearances. All to end up with a motor with valves so bent it wouldn't idle let alone move, let alone have valves that could be within a mile of the correct tolerance. they would have to claim they performed the above tests without ever trying to start the bike, admit they don't know how to adjust valves, and performed the dyno run while the bike wasn't running. LOL, wow these guys suck
Did you pay them?
Quote from: Buck Naked on November 27, 2013, 12:37:01 PM
Not sure that I agree with you. That wouldn't be fair to anyone else that's already been harmed by them, and those that will continue to be.
I tend to agree with DP on this one. And I got all mad on your behalf from a distance once I recalled the "belts off" valve adjust technique and added it to the bent valve.
The problem is return on investment for your time.
They have insurance for this, insurance companies have lawyers to make claimants lives miserable, and the best case scenario you can hope for is somewhere around KBB trade-in value in compensation (as of today = $1710 for a 99 750 Monster) and a salvage title for your bike. From those proceeds you have to pay your lawyer, or take the time off from work to fight it yourself.
I'd guess maybe 300 hours of aggravation, plus you have to go through this thread and make sure you don't contradict anything you say in court and hope the wayback machine hasn't archived anything you edit. Plus you can't talk about it anymore in public (including this forum).
Your other option is to go all vindictive and give the a shitty rating anywhere you can find. Then your blood pressure will get all high as you raise up a bunch of righteous indignation, and you'll end up with them suing you for defamation when you accidentally say something that somebody takes offense to while you have a heart attack.
In my book it is easier (and cost effective) to say make the beast with two backs 'em and move on than it is to fight over their incompetence.
It sucks, but so does life. It'll cost you less to get a Clymers than to fight them, and then it'll never happen to you again because you'll have a competent mechanic working on your bike.
Or you could get the hottest chick you know to go and drop off a pan of brownies that you had baked the night before containing copious amounts of chocolate ex lax.
Quote from: memper on November 28, 2013, 08:20:32 PM
Or you could get the hottest chick you know to go and drop off a pan of brownies that you had baked the night before containing copious amounts of chocolate ex lax.
Ha!
I'll take the opposite view.
You don't need to prove they caused the damage by showing a video of them screwing up the belt job.
You can prove it by testimony that you drove the bike into their shop and it was running fine and when you picked it up, it was not and that the damage caused is exactly what one would expect by the work they did.
What are the limits on small claims in your county? Sue them in small claims. Bring a friend who saw you ride the bike in that day. Bring in a diagram of the valve train and belt to show the judge.
It is winnable.
They may try to remove it to regular court, but that's up to the judge in most places to allow it.
It's very simple logic:
1. I rode the bike into the shop. IT was running fine but needed scheduled maintenance.
2. They worked on the bike
3. Now there is damage that would have prevented me from riding the bike altogether.
res ipsa loquitor, they did it.
Also research any Consumer agencies your state has. California has the Bureau of Automotive Repair (BAR) which all automobile repair shops must register with. Better bike shops do, too. From what I've seen the BAR would side with you and sanction the business.
Ultimately, talking to the business needs to be a calm and friendly activity. Any time someone gets riled up, everyone goes on the defensive (and by defensive could mean offensive) and nothing gets resolved. There have been a couple times I've moved to the tire machine to pick up the 3 foot tire iron... Some folks don't like being told no.
:P
Ducatiz, I'm thinking an expert witness willing to testify that the bike would not have been able to be ridden in with bent valves and answer questions would be helpful, no?
Quote from: howie on November 29, 2013, 03:50:24 PM
Ducatiz, I'm thinking an expert witness willing to testify that the bike would not have been able to be ridden in with bent valves and answer questions would be helpful, no?
Doesn't BN have a buddy that's some former Audi tech? That should be sufficient. Valves are valves.
Quote from: memper on November 29, 2013, 07:30:22 PM
Doesn't BN have a buddy that's some former Audi tech? That should be sufficient. Valves are valves.
Yes and yes.
What's funny about that comment is on Thanksgiving I'm telling this story to my brother-in-law who's a shade tree mechanic, and he interrupts me when I get to the; "bent valves" to say; "whut?? Desmo valves still work when they're bent??"
Quote from: howie on November 29, 2013, 03:50:24 PM
Ducatiz, I'm thinking an expert witness willing to testify that the bike would not have been able to be ridden in with bent valves and answer questions would be helpful, no?
Small claims generally doesn't allow expert witnesses as it's expedited and plaintiffs are usually not represented by counsel.
My point is that it would be very hard for a judge to hear that he drove the bike in, running ok and only needing sched maintenance, and when he picked it up it had bent valves preventing it from even starting.
Quote from: ducatiz on November 30, 2013, 06:47:56 AM
Small claims generally doesn't allow expert witnesses as it's expedited and plaintiffs are usually not represented by counsel.
My point is that it would be very hard for a judge to hear that he drove the bike in, running ok and only needing sched maintenance, and when he picked it up it had bent valves preventing it from even starting.
well, the prob with that is they claimed the bike could/would run. I picked it up with the top end dismantled and in boxes. But the shape these valves are in, no way this engine would run as is. Picking it up as is was the only way I could have the bike back without owing them anything.
Last email from the owner after I suggested what his tech may have done:
"We were trying to explain the condition to you in regards to the head while it was here. However, without a doubt, you are mistaken on the fact that **** put the belts back on out of time, because we never took them off until we pulled your entire head apart. As we talked about before, we did the valve adjustment and checked your timing. We didn't change the timing, re-time, or modify the timing in any way. He checked that the timing was correct to the factory specifications while doing the valve adjustment. This can all be done with the belts on, they only need to be removed to pursue further actions. It is for that reason I can say without a doubt that we never adjusted or changed the belt timing because they were never off of the bike until you authorized us to go ahead and tear down the heads.
Your leakdown was 10% on each head for your reference."And no, I did *not* ever authorize them to tear apart the heads. This guy keeps inserting that in every email. If I had, there's no way he would have agreed so quickly to let me have the bike back after they billed ten hours of labor.
Ugh.
Probably won't fly in small claims.
It's very complex.
He's trying to put words into your mouth, you have to reply each time and say you did not authorize the tear down.
A bike with 4 'bent' valves would most likely have far more than 10% leak down.
I still say to put it behind you and move forward...it's a no win situation IMO.
Meh, I'm starting to agree with DP and Memper. Those crooks didn't get a penny from me, and all the $$ I'm spending is making my bike way better than it was before. Plus I'll be exposing those scumbags soon enough and they'll feel the blowback. I'll still be the winner in the end.
OK, no expert witnesses, shoulda known that even though I'm not a lawyer.
Some other ideas:
Find out small claims court fees, rules and procedure in your location. Spend some time in the "peanut Gallery" observing what goes on.
Keep the email war going and try to put words into their mouths. What did you actually authorize? Beyond basic diagnosis mechanically they should not have gone beyond leak down and valve clearance check.
Now you should be able to choose whether or not to proceed with a claim. Keep in mind they may prefer to settle out of court.
If you choose not to proceed you can take the high road and follow Nate's advice or the more fun road and follow Memper's advice.
Quote from: howie on November 30, 2013, 11:44:03 AM
OK, no expert witnesses, shoulda known that even though I'm not a lawyer.
Some other ideas:
Find out small claims court fees, rules and procedure in your location. Spend some time in the "peanut Gallery" observing what goes on.
Keep the email war going and try to put words into their mouths. What did you actually authorize? Beyond basic diagnosis mechanically they should not have gone beyond leak down and valve clearance check.
Many states require work authorization to be in writing, FYI.
If ther was no work auth in writing, then no auth.
But if you never paid..... then they know they make the beast with two backsed up hard.
I mean...
If you brought it in with bent valves and they had to tear it down to figure it out...
Then..
They did work and aren't at fault... Why wouldn't they demand payment?
Sounds to me like they are praying you accept the no-charge grenade of your engine and go away.
A small claims filing isn't terribly complicated in OH. I still may go that route, good chance they would settle. More important to me than anything is that they end up with egg on their faces for future potential customers to see.
I almost feel bad for the dumbass tech. It's the lying little turd "service manager" I'd like to bring down a few pegs.
If you go the legal route, consider the worst possible outcome (for you). Then decide if its worth it with the potential of that happening.