Ducati Monster Forum

So every holiday there's a HUGE bicycle ride that goes from the MB SBUX to the top of Mandiville Canyon & back.  It usually attracts about 250- 300 cyclists & for the most part is more like a reunion than a training ride. 

This past Fri. as the riders were coming down Mandiville a local resdent & DOCTOR :o  decided to pass 2 cyclists & then brake-check them.  Both hit the car & my buddy Ron took the worst of it.90 stitches to close the cuts & re-attach his nose after he flew thru the rear window.  Doctor refused to help & was even trying to leave the scene but the other rider with the broken collarbone sat on his hood until the cops came.

Hopefully he'll do some serious jail time & loose his medical license.......... he has a history on run-ins with cyclists on that road which he lives on.  Arrainment is set for Aug. 1st & his bail was a lowly $30K.

Her's a linkhttp://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-bike9-2008jul09,0,6023414.story

 (http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-bike9-2008jul09,0,6023414.story)

THROW THE BOOK AT HIM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(

i read that this morning...

this is what stood out to me:


"People here are very, very angry at bicyclists and their disregard for the laws of the road," Rosen said...

i really wish they would've asked her what she meant by this.

if you notice there are tons of comments on this incident basically both sides can be summed up

cyclists- the car drivers are being reckless trying to kill a person and that is not good
car drivers- the cyclists deserve what they got bc he wasn't riding single file and cyclist disregard traffic laws so they should be taught a lesson and its good that they finally got hit by a car and almost died.

its amazing how immature "adults" are at times. basical you have a lot of people saying the cyclist should have been hit bc they weren't riding single file, bad words were said, and also because cyclists are being dangerous so they should get what is coming to them and also cyclist on road slow me down in a car so I should be allowed to run them off the road.

duh.. since when does "saying bad words" or "not riding single file" or "just being rude" justify RUNNING A 4000LB CAR into someone thus trying to KILL THEM?..

if that is the case then the next time someone is noisy in a restuarant i guess "its my right" to hit you over the head with a baseball bat till you are in a coma so that you are quiet, bc its the courteous thing to do..  see how stupid and immature that sounds?

that's because that is exactly what people are justifying when they say "well that cyclist deserved it".. wtf?  people are so stupid.  i only hope that people like this get lung cancer and die a slow and painful death so that they can learn how petty they are being by trying to kill someone because they "had to slow down" while driving home but instead want to "teach someone a lesson" by hitting them with a CAR.

for full disclosure i only wish lung cancer on people that i feel deserve no mercy at all, its probably one of the worst/painful and disheartening types of cancer you can see a loved one die from, i've seen a couple loved ones go this way and its absolutely terrible and saddening. 

that being said if you try to KILL OR SERIOUSLY INJURE someone because "they said bad words to you or called your mother a bad name" or "they didn't ride single file" or "hey they are being too slow on my way home" then I believe you deserve the worst type of death there is.

my rant is over, sorry about that.

*Technically*, he didn't run a 4k lb car into the bikes...they ran into him after he brake checked them.

Levity aside, it's a sad story and commentary on human decency.  There are some serious problems between the cycling community and everyone else it seems.  I'm annoyed and aggravated by the pelotons that act like they own the road, but I wouldn't wish them harm like this.  I know we have a few roadie enthusiasts amongst us, and one of my work buds is pretty avid, so I know they're not all bad. ;)  Gus, I hope your friends heal up ok.

I think the Doc was threatened by all the spandex.

seriously though, inappropriate.

where do you draw the line between exercising your right to ride your bicycle on city streets and "acting like you own the road"?

when, if you're riding in a group, you're not riding in a single-file line.  which happens all the time.

..certainly not an 'inflict bodily harm to teach a lesson' kind of infraction however.  as if anything ever is.

That's bs what the Dr did, at the same time, I am seeing a lot of people in my area getting pissed at this group every day.
My home town of Waterloo is the corporate head quarters of Trek.  Every day I see them breaking every traffic law I can list. 
I am not saying what the Dr did is ok, in any way. I'm just saying if this group wants to be treated equally on the road they need to follow the same rules.   Again I do not support what the Dr did.

Wow, I can't help it but think how car drivers and bicyclists see us motorcyclists when we take over the damn road....... [moto] [moto] which, let's face it, sometimes we do..........let the weekend rides begin  [drink].

Have a safe weekend everybody.

Lates.

All the cyclists I see are usually courteous enough to be riding along the side of the road in single file.  Never really had an issue with any.  So there must have been something up.  Regardless, the act of brake checking a cyclist is pretty shady.  I mean, it's a car vs a 10lb bike with a guy that's practically naked riding it.

I hope the guys recover well and a resolution is come to.  Maybe the county should invest making bike lanes in some popular cycling routes.  At my company we have about 6 people who have recently started biking to work and I'm sure many others have done the same. 

+1.

The main purpose of a road is for cars to travel.  I'm all for cyclists going out and getting their exercise and having fun doing these rides, but there 's definitely a good number of them who intentionally break the law and it's pretty damn annoying.

At least when a M/C breaks the law, he's usually speeding, not impeding traffic and pissing everyone off. 

However, the Dr.'s reaction is obviously completely inappropriate and I hope he gets some serious time (which I seriously doubt).

Thanks Nick [thumbsup]  Ron's feeling better but he's now the ugliest guy on the team ;D

Christian is a Steadycam operator & unfortunately will be out of work for a few months......

The problem as I see it is the same we face as motorcyclists....... a motorists see's a cyclist run a light, cut them off, or impede traffic & they get angry.  Unfortunately, they see all of us as the same person & end up taking out their anger on the next motorcyclist/cylist they see.........  I too see cyclists & motorcylits DAILY that gives us all a bad name..... I reserve my comments for those that endanger me & for the most part stay off my soap box.

A little courtesey from both sides is all that's really needed...... nobody OWNS the roads.... they are for everybody to SHARE....... until that happens, they'll be many more injured/ killed riders & angry motorists.

These two guys in this particular case are extremely curteous riders & Ron is a professional coach & rides around with his name & info on his jersey & shorts as well as his sponsors so he goes out of his way to maintain a good image in the community.  It does look bad however that he lost his cool & shouted at the driver after the first encounter & near miss...... still doesn't justify the brake check......

Matt....... had you ridden all the way to Pismo with us you's have a completely different outlook on Spandex.....Captain Luca Camel Toe [laugh]

1) it's illegal to ride bikes on sidewalks

2) bikes have every bit the right to be on "streets" as cars

but they DO have to follow vehicle codes/laws

now, if the conversation is about them running redlights or stopsigns or something, yeah, they're breaking the law... but if they're just going slower than the guy behind 'em in the joyvagen wants to go, that's still legal.

COURTESY would be to move to the far right single file, but there is no law mandating that (other than maybe "obstructing traffic").

I see the bikes cutting though trafic, runnng stop lights/signs every day and cutting off cars while they do this with their fancy Trek shirts on.  I have zero issue with bike going slow, that is their lot in life.

For me, this is crossing the line:

running stop signs/lights, riding in a traffic causing peloton anywhere other than a bike race, using a car lane in the presence of a bike line, picking and choosing which rules you follow and which you break for your conveience/rhythm/etc.


I don't know why you say "maybe" here.  A slower moving vehicle obstructing traffic is a traffic hazard and should be cited.



Funny you mention that as just Weds I was in the cage and caught in the middle of a Sportbike crew of ~50 headed to Hollywood Bike Night as they merged on to the freeway.  Accidents between them vs themselves, them vs cars, and cars vs cars were just *nearly* missed as they swarmed in and out of traffic on their way to the HOV lane.  It made really sit back and think the same thing you just mentioned.

Yep, 22400 CVC - Impede traffic.

If the bikes are such a problem, then the residents need to go to their City Council and insist that the local PD start citing the cyclists.

As far as the Dr.. He won't lose his license but hopefully they charged him with 245(a)(1) PC - Assault with a deadly weapon. The 30K bail sounds about right.

The Dr. pulled a stunt and it backfired.  Don't any of you try and tell me you've never stopped short on another car to scare them and "teach them a lesson."  Equating that move to wanting or planning to kill someone is a stretch.  Reckless yes, felony assault nah.  Besides how does a bike going 30-35mph not see and either a. stop or b. avoid a "4000 pound object" unless they were riding in an unsafe manner and/or pattern and couldn't do so without getting hit by another rider as well?

The whole lot of them - riders and Doctor - are morons and defending either is equally moronic.   [bang]

And if I read one more whiney ass they're entitled BS post i'm going to vomit.  These guys are squids with pedals and spandex.  We have them here too.  They ride in groups with no regard for anyone around them or their own safety.  While that's all well and good when you get away with it, we all learned on the playground that the attitude of "I'm going to do this because no one would dare hit me" is a painful one to have once someone does hit us. 

Like with most Squids some lessons need to be learned the hard way.  Here's a surprise for all you pedal pushers = they're all out to kill you, ride like it and lose the attitude.

 [popcorn]

You sound like a nice open minded guy [thumbsup]

According to you I'm a pedal pushing spandex wearing moron who should lose the attitude or prepare to die...... nice...... [roll]

since you obviously can't follow a thought, read a paragraph or paraphrase me; we'll discuss your statement above.

If you ride that way yeah - you and the rest of the squids are playing with fire.  Why is it you feel you're enabled to ride anyway you want with no risk just because you're pushing your pedals as opposed to twisting your wrist?  Ride your bike that way and we'll be reading about your wreck in crash analysis.  Just do us a favor and don't blame the cagers or society for your failure to take appropriate precautions and riding like a Squid.

That's not hoping or wishing it on you - that's just the odds your dealt given your decision of riding behavior.  As I said ride like they're out to kill you, whether pushing pedals or twisting your wrist, because they are.  If you don't you may end up pushing petals instead.  I sincerely hope your simply attempting to bait me into an argument and not defending that riding mentality.  The odds are stacked against it.

As far as my openmindedness, If being closed minded means not following the herd denouncing someone despite reckless behavior then i'll wear that tag as a badge of honor.  I always call it like I see it. i'm not looking for your or anyone else's approval.

+1  [thumbsup]

The point I took from your post was you were sick of whiners in spandex who break the law...... that's an absurd statement to make about cyclists as a whole...... you know how many motorists think of motorcyclists that way.... probably as many or more than cyclists.  To me, an attitude like that won't get you far & is amazing coming from someone who rides a motorcycle & is subjected to similiar drivers on a daily basis.

Try stopping your Monster if a car pulled quicly in front of you....... I bet even that guy's old Infinity will stop much quicker & more controlled than your Monster regardless of the mods.  These guys were riding down a slight hill at the posted speed limit, they noticed the car & went single file as far to the right as possible & then after nearly getting hit by the driver & yelling at him, got brake checked & one went thru his window & the other went almost over the whole car..... gain these guys weren't racing weren't in a large group at that point of their ride & weren't breaking any laws......

I still ride my bicycle a fair amount & always make a point to be respectful of the rules of the road as well as my surrondings.  I'm not upset when I have a close call as I expect them...... many people just don't see me on my bike or my motorcycle... when they go out of their way to buzz me then I have a problem but again I let it go because to me I ridde both to have a good time, not to puick a fight [thumbsup]

I don't feel that anybody owes me anything on the bike or the motorcycle & I'm not looking for anything from you either....... you have every right to have a different opinion & I respect that....... I just don't like blanket statements coming ffrom someone that doesn't ride a bicycle in a big city like I do & encounter what I do when I ride it.

I do know we shrare similar tastes in motorcycles though ;)

I'm sick of spandexers that ride against traffic, run stop lights/signs cutting off cars and motorcyclist in the process.  Then having the nerve to give the person they almost hit due to their disregard of the law a dirty look.  The majority of the bicyclists in my area that are commuting are all going to the same place.  And I have observed the majority of them all behaving in this manner.  There will always be on or two idiots wither they be in cars, cycles or pedal bikes.  When the majority of any group starts behaving this way there is an issue.  Plus it hurts the image of the very product that the company they are commuting to is selling.

Also the Dr is in no way in the right, what he did was wrong and no one, not me, not Cowboy supports his actions.   This thread has become a dialog to discuss how we as Motorcycles, which have similar issues with cars, feel about how our pedal compadres actions have fired up a large portion of the the community.

Ok, I'll tell you.  I've never stopped short on another car.  

Have you ever tried to stop a bicycle from 35 mph going downhill on a 2-lane road? Obviously not or you wouldn't have made such an ignorant statement as you did above.  Cars stop much faster than pushies, and since there's only one lane each way and on one side of that lane is a huge dropoff, it's pretty easy to see how they couldn't avoid it or stop in time.

Agreed [thumbsup]

Just don't lump me into the category of law breakers beacuse I choose to ride a bike & wer spandex ;D

So we're clear the points to be made were:

1. Pedal groups ride en mass with an aggressive entitlement attitude and flaunt traffic laws and safety routinely.
2."Like with most Squids some lessons need to be learned the hard way.  Here's a surprise for all you pedal pushers = they're all out to kill you, ride like it and lose the attitude."


I certainly do feel that way and the actions of the local clubs and YMCA packs here bear this out.  Many afternoons as I ride my Duc i come on these groups and I have to ride the yellow or cross it to get safely by even on the bike.  Cars just stack up behind them many deep until the group turns or traffic on the other side of the road presents an opportunity to pass desite the double yellow.  Doing it on a quiet country road is one thing doing it on busy city streets is another especially between 3 and 6pm.  As a rider, bike or pedal, it is the responsibility of the rider to adjust his/her ride to the conditions not the other way around.  I expect nothing more from them than is expected of me.


First stopping a car or motorcycle and stopping a 10-30lb bike are two different stories all together.  I will grant that it's possible the Doc gave them no way out (and yes Darryl I have riden a bike downhill and stopped it.  I've also high sided as a result of trying to stop too fast which was a good (and hard) lesson to learn before I got the Duc with regards to gear.)  Is it also possible that these guys failed some basic safe riding techniques we all use everyday?

Looking at this by applying the safe riding techniques and lessons we use to survive every day and count the number of mistakes just from what was in the article.  1.  they impeded traffic by riding slower and initially blocking traffic.  2.  they weren't aware of what was happening behind them (bikes have mirrors right?).  3.  they yelled obscenities at the car as he went by (road rage is dumb but picking a fight with someone in a "4000 pound weapon" is stupid).   I'll grant the possibility that the Doc could have swerved in a manner as to not give them any escape but can you say they rode in a manner as to provide themselves a way out?  slowed their pass to give the car room? changed lane position? better positioned themselves in relation to each other?  To say these guys were innocent victims is nuts. 

Did they deserve to get sent through a window? Nope.  Do they bear at least some responsibility for putting themselves in that position?  You bet your ass - just as I would if I had done the same on my Duc.


That's refreshing.  Wish more here would do the same when they ride with others.  I've never had or seen an issue with individual riders just pairs or groups which is why I specifically singled groups out in my post.  It's also good to read because honestly the hardest posts to see and the ones that stick in my head the longest are the crash posts.  The fewer of those the better IMO, which is why the point of my post was to "...ride like they're trying to kill you because they are..."


If you're on the road it's a 2 way street.  Those of us who have to deal with pedalers and groups have as much to say and our points are of equal value to the impact on traffic as you riders.  To think otherwise is nothing short of arrogance.  From your posts on the forum you seem to be a pretty good guy.  Could be the issue is an personal/emotional one so I won't press it. 

We share some other tastes as well but motorcycles and survival riding are certainly tops.

Pardon the long post.

Cheers.

We all wear spandex from time to time  ;D
And yes I have a Trek bike.

This is pretty much exactly how I feel about it - just encapsulated a whole lot better.

Hey, I have a novel idea: everybody relax and leave everybody else alone 

-R.

+1  [thumbsup]

+1.

You also never know who you are dealing with.

seems like cowboy is aadmitting to "trying to teach someone a lesson by stopping short in a car" interesting to know. how can someone say "i didn't mean to kill the person, i was only driving a 4000lb car stopping short and he was on a 15 lb bike i thought that stopping short at 30mph so that the person slams into my car would only just turn him into a prapalegic or put him in a vegative state but not kill him, its not like i was trying to kill the person by you know shooting them, because you can't purposefully kill someone with a car right?"

see this is why people need to start carrying handguns all the time, so that people will be more courteous to other people no matter what...

this situation could have been avoided if everyone had their own handgun (seems like the supreme court agrees with me).

because nobody can drive/run/cycle faster than a speeding bullet only superman can do that.

you are on a bicycle? no problem you can still get shot through the spandex so be polite,
you are in a car? no problem, bullets easily go through glass  so be more polite,
you are walking down the street? no problem, people will be polite because you can take them out if you want.

handguns the answer to the worlds problems...  [laugh]

then no more problems of entitelement, because drivers and cyclists would have to be worried about the other equally killing each from a distance where the car makes no difference.

"Abe Lincoln may have freed all men, but Sam Colt made them equal"

for those that may not have noticed, this posting is satire.

You should work for the New Yorker.

LOL.  It was all muddy for me but you're great satirical wit cleared it all up.  I'll be heading to the Trekkie store for some spandex and a $5000 bike straight away so I can achieve greater clarity and consciousness like you.   [bacon]

Stopping short was bad word choice on my part since we're being so specific.  Stopping short is a technique used by insurance scammers and is used to initiate a collusion.  Tapping the brakes is the technique I was referring to often used by drivers being tailgated.  It's intent is to cause a momentary sphincter clutch in the tailgating party but not meant to involve contact between the vehicles.  As far as the Doc's intent goes that would depend on whether he tapped the brakes or stopped short which is probably what the DA and PoPo are trying to determine at the accident site.

....yeah, yeah but you are forgrtting that its not easy to carry a handgun in your spandex...ask me how i know

plenty of room?

Now I know why the alarm went off when we walked into Ross [laugh]

I thought stopping short was George Costanza's father move, later copied by Kramer

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NlZvYcDLtYc

no problem, all in good humor. 

i do like the bacon icon though that was a good one by the mods to put on.

i know exactly what you were talking about with the slight slowing down and such.. only problem with that is like you said someone could "mean to only do that" but it totally backfires and ends up 10 times worse.. if so i still think you should be b&tch slapped majorly by the law as it was stupid to do it in the first place, sort of like playing with a gun and pointing it at someone only "meaning to scare them" and it goes off and shoots them in the head... sorry but no matter how much of an "accident'" something might be i want the person "b%tch slapped" by the law if it was something really stupid.

i like the new yorker comment (very good in light of the recent cover), how did you pick up that i was from that area?  (joking, well sorta)

well you can carry the gun in spandex much like when you see some security guard in really bad fitting suits with their guns "hidden in a shoulder holster" and you see a huge outline of a gun through the jacke.. oh yeah that is really "concealed"..

funny comments by all.  hey you have to have a bit of humor about even bad situations..

I never said he shouldn't own up for the accident or isn't responsible - he is.  I argued he shouldn't go down on more serious charges nor should anyone assume he was trying to kill someone without more facts -- Hell if the intent was to seriously harm he could have forced them off the cliff directly and left no witnesses  ;) 

Pointing a gun at someone and brake checking is quite a stretch though so you lose me there.  But following your line of thought if someone was pointing a gun in my face I sure as hell wouldn't tell them off and flip them the bird like those 2 did.

It's all good and let me apologize for even trespassing in your local forum.  One of the dangers I guess of surfing the site using the Unread button.

...i dont think any comments are to be considered unwelcomed no mater what the opinion they express, as long as they are civilized and respectfull of others opinions... ;D

keep it comin

The doc is having his trial this morning at 8:30.

Please post up what punishment they dole out for the doc.

As a bicyclist who has been hit by 3 cars and a bus (he actually tried to make a getaway), I'm curious to see what happens.

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-bikers12-2008dec12,0,147065.story (http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-bikers12-2008dec12,0,147065.story)

Good catch Derby [thumbsup]

guilty:

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2009/11/jury-reaches-verdict-in-cycling-case.html (http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2009/11/jury-reaches-verdict-in-cycling-case.html)

On all 7 counts [thumbsup]

Next up: sentencing.........

i was gonna post that but never got around to finding this thread  ;)

nice.

Why? It's not like you have anything keeping you busy  ;D

The guy didn't even look remorseful when they were taking him to jail from court.

i'm very happy that he is guilty with any luck he will lose his med license forever, and be put in jail for at least 3-5 years.  with any luck he dies in jail.

he completely deserves it, and thought he would get away with it because he is a rich Doctor.  He is such a loser, I truly hope that he lives out his last days in jail and misses vital things in his childrens and grandchildrens lives. 

with any luck he will also lose his house and possessions in a civil suit from the poeple he tried to kill with his car because they were slowing him down on the way to his house.   lest you say i'm being harsh, just think, would you let a guy off the hook if your daughter's face was put in the back of a car window just becuase they were riding a bicycle in the road?  didn't think so.   [clap] [clap] [clap] [clap] [laugh] [laugh] [laugh]

We have Black & white (regulatory) signs that say "slower vehicles must pull over to permit passing" That goes for everybody.

I keep hearing from the bicycle community "Share the road"

Well?...

Then there's this.

Mom Violence at Critical Mass (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7b-Yk9IAN4&feature=related#normal)

But also this.

Bicycles and Cars in "Road Wars" (News Report - Los Angeles) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eO9mhyTk3hY&feature=related#normal)

i agree everyone has to follow the laws, of course you have bad cyclists, but you have thousands of times more bad drivers. If you break then the law enforcment should write you up.

but you are not allowed to take the law into your own hands, if you do you should face the consequences and be put in jail, its not your job.  that is why we pay taxes for law enforcement, so that they do the job that was given to them.

so what you are saying is, you "should be allowed" to try to kill someone if they are inconveniencing you and breaking the law? 

that is like someone saying "i am allowed to hit you and your kid with my car because you crossed on a red light you are breaking the law and inconveniencing me you should be taught a lesson and severly hurt".  sorry but that is just horrible logic.  just because its "cool" to bash on cyclists doesn't make it right at all.  call the police if you see someone breaking the law that is what they are there for.

Around SLO they've been cracking down on bicyclists breaking street laws. Many of them breeze stop lights/signs and make random turns from any lane they feel like. I know it's probably not all of them, but I've never seen a bicyclist stop for a stop sign. They're trying to get bicyclists to obey traffic laws on campus by putting up additional signs next to all the stop signs with cartoon character references.  [roll]

In one area you argue that your bike is a vehicle and as such has a right to be on the road and then you follow it up with an argument that you're not liable or at fault if you're hit breaking the law?

If you're on the road you're liable for your actions.  If you run a red light, get hit and die - under the law it's your fault.  It doesn't matter whether you were in a car, on a motorcycle or riding a bike (hell in most states if you're jaywalking and get hit the driver isn't liable).  

I'd agree bikes have a place on the road but please stop the spandex armor argument where you get special protection or privilege because you pedal.  Rights have responsibilities AND consequences if not practiced with care.  That goes for all vehicles on the road.  As a motorcyclist this lesson should already be ingrained. 

Cheers.

That's pretty common on college campuses, unfortunately.

On Stanford campus I can typically distinguish bicyclists as undergrads vs grad students at a glance just by their behavior and whether they have a helmet.

no what i'm saying is that as a cyclist you have to obey the law, and if someone sees you breaking the law they should call the police to write you up.  But you are not allowed to ever take the law into your own hands and mete out justice as you view it to  "teach someone a lesson" by hitting them with a car.

if the police want to write up cycilsts for breaking the law they are allowed that is ok. 

what i put that hypothetical up is that most people will say the common arguement of "well if you do anything wrong then I AM ALLOWED AND ITS MY GOD GIVEN RIGHT TO teach you a lesson because you are on a bicycle and i say that because well everyone hates cyclists so i'm going to do it because its cool and everyone hates cyclists anyway, so i'll get off, etc." 

point is don't take the law into your own hands, that is not your job, if you do and you are not in law enforcement you deserve to be put in jail for life you are not judge jury and executioner, those are jobs for others.

(http://cdn.steampowered.com/v/gfx/apps/3710/header.jpg?t=1256836806)

"I am the law"!