Lots of KTM content here and really no Duc content so sorry about that.
But, if you're like me, you like seeing the insides of engines no matter who made them.
A few years ago I bought a low mile low hr (750 miles, about 30 hrs) 2010 KTM 450 EXC Champions Edition. Basically a 450 dirt bike with stuff to make it street legal.
I immediately converted it into a supermoto and have been riding it that way ever since. Im now up to 3850 miles and 107 hrs.
If I wasn't power hungry I would have left it alone. It runs fine and since it never sees dirt/dust/trails I can stretch the maintenance quite a bit. I think KTM wants you to put another piston in it somewhere in the 100-120 hr time frame. I've seen pistons that were trashed at that hr level and, as you'll see in the pics, mine is just starting to scuff a little.
What drove this is a growing love of trackdays.
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y25/900rider/450exc/_DSC6993-ZF-2100-86027-1-001_zpsa1tgb7sg.jpg) (http://s2.photobucket.com/user/900rider/media/450exc/_DSC6993-ZF-2100-86027-1-001_zpsa1tgb7sg.jpg.html)
I like riding this bike there but I think it needs a little more power. It's currently 35 or 40ish. I'm doing a Thumper Racing big bore kit.
I tried to get the KTM 570 kit which turns a 530 into a 570. A 530 crank would make my 450 accept that kit but it's not available world wide any more. I called Thumper and they spent 30-40 minutes on the phone answering questions. After talking with them I settled on a 520 kit which uses the existing short throw 450 crank. It should be a rev monster.
Their combo-
520 kit
overbore the carb from 39-41 (its a flatslide too boot!)
use the cam from a 2012+ 500exc
They're getting 60HP with this setup. In a 265 pound bike that should be pretty fun.
While I was out there working on removing the cylinder (goes back to Thumper Racing) I decided to fix a nagging problem I've had for years. The electric starter will turn the bike over but most times not fast enough to active the CDI and light it up. I end up having to use the kick starter. I'm lazy and that's annoying so I found the fix on Advrider. There's a clutch that can be tightened. . .
Having a lift makes all the difference. It's really nice to raise or lower things to the level that's comfortable. Pulling the carb on these bikes kind of sucked until I learned you could unbolt the bottom of the subframe and hinge the whole thing up. That pulls the airbox boot off the carb and gives plenty of room to disconnect everything and pull it off the head.
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y25/900rider/450exc/IMG_20160821_143738_zpsakrxd0at.jpg) (http://s2.photobucket.com/user/900rider/media/450exc/IMG_20160821_143738_zpsakrxd0at.jpg.html)
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y25/900rider/450exc/IMG_20160917_142351_zpstdxe0lm0.jpg) (http://s2.photobucket.com/user/900rider/media/450exc/IMG_20160917_142351_zpstdxe0lm0.jpg.html)
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y25/900rider/450exc/IMG_20160917_142411_zpsgvratytt.jpg) (http://s2.photobucket.com/user/900rider/media/450exc/IMG_20160917_142411_zpsgvratytt.jpg.html)
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y25/900rider/450exc/IMG_20160917_143101_zpsavgtdfld.jpg) (http://s2.photobucket.com/user/900rider/media/450exc/IMG_20160917_143101_zpsavgtdfld.jpg.html)
The right side cover is easy to remove. Pull the clutch cover, and remove all the side cover bolts as well as the hose on the water pump. This clutch gear lives behind the clutch basket so that's gotta go as well. Pull the pressure plate and disc pack. Bend the tabs up on the security plate and remove the hub nut with an impact gun. Pull the hub and basket and there she is.
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y25/900rider/450exc/IMG_20160917_155604_zpskqjiqwjn.jpg) (http://s2.photobucket.com/user/900rider/media/450exc/IMG_20160917_155604_zpskqjiqwjn.jpg.html)
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y25/900rider/450exc/IMG_20160917_155613_zpsn8virdel.jpg) (http://s2.photobucket.com/user/900rider/media/450exc/IMG_20160917_155613_zpsn8virdel.jpg.html)
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y25/900rider/450exc/IMG_20160917_161012_zpsyabytjxm.jpg) (http://s2.photobucket.com/user/900rider/media/450exc/IMG_20160917_161012_zpsyabytjxm.jpg.html)
I have no idea how this ended up grouped with all the rest of these pictures but here's one of my cats fatting out on the window sill
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y25/900rider/450exc/IMG_20160918_102600_zpsjadmefve.jpg) (http://s2.photobucket.com/user/900rider/media/450exc/IMG_20160918_102600_zpsjadmefve.jpg.html)
So here's the right side all buttoned back up. Note that one of the side cover bolts is dual purpose. To hold the side cover on there is a fat washer that sits between the bolt and the cover. If you remove this washer and reinstall the bolt with the engine at TDC it will engage a groove or divot in the crank shaft and serves to keep the engine locked at TDC. Smart.
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y25/900rider/450exc/IMG_20160918_134848_zpsyah0wkqw.jpg) (http://s2.photobucket.com/user/900rider/media/450exc/IMG_20160918_134848_zpsyah0wkqw.jpg.html)
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y25/900rider/450exc/IMG_20160918_141513_zpsgabh87ar.jpg) (http://s2.photobucket.com/user/900rider/media/450exc/IMG_20160918_141513_zpsgabh87ar.jpg.html)
I already had the valve cover off and as you can see there's a dot on the cam gear and a mark on the head casting that when lined up tell you you're at TDC. Getting there is a pregnant dog. I used the kick lever to roll things over (spark plug removed. . .) and if you go a hair too far it falls off the cam lobe and moves like 90 degrees too much. I got it with trial, error, cursing and praying. It fell into place just before I resorted to sacrificing a chicken. I hurried up and locked the crank in place with that bolt.
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y25/900rider/450exc/IMG_20160918_141528_zpscpthpnd4.jpg) (http://s2.photobucket.com/user/900rider/media/450exc/IMG_20160918_141528_zpscpthpnd4.jpg.html)
After this I pulled the cam chain tensioner. I did not have a 21mm socket or wrench in my collection and the english versions didn't fit well enough to make me comfortable. What to do? I turned to my trusty KTM tool kit. Son of a pregnant dog it had the wrench I needed! It's a double ended wrench that actually fits 4 sizes of fastener. Smart. And it worked like a charm.
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y25/900rider/450exc/IMG_20160918_142652_zpsxkt0eymm.jpg) (http://s2.photobucket.com/user/900rider/media/450exc/IMG_20160918_142652_zpsxkt0eymm.jpg.html)
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y25/900rider/450exc/IMG_20160918_142659_zpsem9gasdw.jpg) (http://s2.photobucket.com/user/900rider/media/450exc/IMG_20160918_142659_zpsem9gasdw.jpg.html)
The only thing holding the cam in place is a retaining plate bolted from the opposite side of the head casting. After that's out the cam wiggles out a bit and drops down after the journal is clear of the bearing. That gives enough slack to pull the chain off it. I zip tied that so it didn't get dropped down into the case.
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y25/900rider/450exc/IMG_20160918_142716_zpscw2drrsf.jpg) (http://s2.photobucket.com/user/900rider/media/450exc/IMG_20160918_142716_zpscw2drrsf.jpg.html)
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y25/900rider/450exc/IMG_20160918_143101_zpsffc6qrz4.jpg) (http://s2.photobucket.com/user/900rider/media/450exc/IMG_20160918_143101_zpsffc6qrz4.jpg.html)
Here's the cam. Note the cool little decompression device on there. Spring loaded so that the exhaust valves are held open a bit. Once the engine hits a few hundred rpm (500? not sure) the spring is overcome and the rockers follow the actual cam profile. I think the compression stock on this engine is 12.5:1
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y25/900rider/450exc/IMG_20160918_143302_zpsbzmv1kqf.jpg) (http://s2.photobucket.com/user/900rider/media/450exc/IMG_20160918_143302_zpsbzmv1kqf.jpg.html)
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y25/900rider/450exc/IMG_20160918_143317_zpsfcpr0r8s.jpg) (http://s2.photobucket.com/user/900rider/media/450exc/IMG_20160918_143317_zpsfcpr0r8s.jpg.html)
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y25/900rider/450exc/IMG_20160918_143319_zpsvhk9yjii.jpg) (http://s2.photobucket.com/user/900rider/media/450exc/IMG_20160918_143319_zpsvhk9yjii.jpg.html)
The underside of the head and cylinder. More carbon that I would have thought but not all that bad. Zero wear on the cylinder. Factory cross hatch is alive and well as it should be.
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y25/900rider/450exc/IMG_20160918_145312_zps9anxsiib.jpg) (http://s2.photobucket.com/user/900rider/media/450exc/IMG_20160918_145312_zps9anxsiib.jpg.html)
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y25/900rider/450exc/IMG_20160918_145618_zpsz8iljyz8.jpg) (http://s2.photobucket.com/user/900rider/media/450exc/IMG_20160918_145618_zpsz8iljyz8.jpg.html)
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y25/900rider/450exc/IMG_20160918_145632_zps4pxkam3k.jpg) (http://s2.photobucket.com/user/900rider/media/450exc/IMG_20160918_145632_zps4pxkam3k.jpg.html)
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y25/900rider/450exc/IMG_20160918_145649_zps5i50yim4.jpg) (http://s2.photobucket.com/user/900rider/media/450exc/IMG_20160918_145649_zps5i50yim4.jpg.html)
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y25/900rider/450exc/IMG_20160918_145259_zpsg7v64qb6.jpg) (http://s2.photobucket.com/user/900rider/media/450exc/IMG_20160918_145259_zpsg7v64qb6.jpg.html)
More carbon that I would have thought on the piston. What I find strange is that it's all on the right side between the intake and exhaust valve. Any idea what that's about? I got nothing. The skirt is coated on the piston and some that ive seen at 100 hours have the coating worn away totally and have heavy wear marks. Mine looks pretty good I think. There is only a hint of scoring starting. If I had to guess, I think this piston could do another 70-100 hours if kept on the street an maintained the way I have been.
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y25/900rider/450exc/IMG_20160918_145721_zps2sytjqck.jpg) (http://s2.photobucket.com/user/900rider/media/450exc/IMG_20160918_145721_zps2sytjqck.jpg.html)
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y25/900rider/450exc/IMG_20160918_145739_zpsun2k5p8d.jpg) (http://s2.photobucket.com/user/900rider/media/450exc/IMG_20160918_145739_zpsun2k5p8d.jpg.html)
I only took this so I remembered which way the wrist pin clip went. I guess it matters and if it's put in backwards it can work its way out.
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y25/900rider/450exc/IMG_20160918_145937_zpsd7hr21xl.jpg) (http://s2.photobucket.com/user/900rider/media/450exc/IMG_20160918_145937_zpsd7hr21xl.jpg.html)
I'm not sure if this piston is cast or forged. It's very high quality for a factory job. KTM claims their bikes are "Ready to race" right off the showroom floor and I believe it.
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y25/900rider/450exc/IMG_20160918_151004_zpscc2izjfn.jpg) (http://s2.photobucket.com/user/900rider/media/450exc/IMG_20160918_151004_zpscc2izjfn.jpg.html)
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y25/900rider/450exc/IMG_20160918_151059_zpsuybn14u3.jpg) (http://s2.photobucket.com/user/900rider/media/450exc/IMG_20160918_151059_zpsuybn14u3.jpg.html)
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y25/900rider/450exc/IMG_20160918_151109_zpsjg7zl3u5.jpg) (http://s2.photobucket.com/user/900rider/media/450exc/IMG_20160918_151109_zpsjg7zl3u5.jpg.html)
A shot of how the bike sits now. The carb and cylinder are ready to go off to Thumper. Once I have everything here I think I can have it running after a solid afternoon of wrenching. Stay tuned. . .
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y25/900rider/450exc/IMG_20160918_151450_zpsymixxcko.jpg) (http://s2.photobucket.com/user/900rider/media/450exc/IMG_20160918_151450_zpsymixxcko.jpg.html)
Looks like a fun project. $775 doesn't seem to bad for 50% more power.
I've been shopping for a dual sport. I'd like to pick up some off-pavement skills and fall a few times to go get over that fear. :-) I've pretty much settled on a WR250R, but I keep coming across KTMs on ADVrider that look interesting. But it sounds like maybe KTMs are a bit too race-bred for me, if they're wanting a new piston every 100 hours.
Quote from: blalor on September 18, 2016, 03:10:16 PM
Looks like a fun project. $775 doesn't seem to bad for 50% more power.
I've been shopping for a dual sport. I'd like to pick up some off-pavement skills and fall a few times to go get over that fear. :-) I've pretty much settled on a WR250R, but I keep coming across KTMs on ADVrider that look interesting. But it sounds like maybe KTMs are a bit too race-bred for me, if they're wanting a new piston every 100 hours.
I'm sure the WR is great. KTM is a great option too. As with anything it's all in the use and maintenance. If you can't keep your air filter clean on a regular basis then engine life suffers no matter who makes the bike. You can only ride dusty trails and submerge the bike in streams so many times before you move into the aggressive user category.
The boot between my air filter and carb was absolutely spotless. That's probably why the piston looked so good. 100% street helps in that regard.
I wouldn't shy away from KTM. Stick with a 2011+ bike (exc if you want street legality) and you will already have all the upgraded parts right from the factory (oil system stuff)
Do you have a dealer near you?
Well, I'm never getting my bottle opener now. [evil]
[laugh]
Cool project.
Looks like fun. [thumbsup]
Stop beating on your thumb.
Quote from: DesmoDiva on September 18, 2016, 03:33:20 PM
Looks like fun. [thumbsup]
Stop beating on your thumb.
I wondered if that would get noticed. I was reaching for something and my thumb glanced of a piece of metal. That was the result!
Quote from: Monsterlover on September 18, 2016, 03:18:00 PM
If you can't keep your air filter clean on a regular basis then engine life suffers no matter who makes the bike. You can only ride dusty trails and submerge the bike in streams so many times before you move into the aggressive user category.
Ah, interesting. Basically FOD.
Quote from: Monsterlover on September 18, 2016, 03:18:00 PM
I wouldn't shy away from KTM. Stick with a 2011+ bike (exc if you want street legality) and you will already have all the upgraded parts right from the factory (oil system stuff)
Do you have a dealer near you?
Not too far away, it appears. I'm looking for something used and cheap, tho; I'm hoping to find a not-too-rough WR for around $3k. A DRZ400 is also a good (and cheaper) candidate.
Either of those will roll on dirt [thumbsup]
The more I see of their stuff, the more I'm impressed.
Make sure you take care of where the cam chain is if you need to turn the crank.
Nice thread!
Ktm's are good to go in my book too, put together well and not over complicated.
I would be surprised if the HP was not a tad higher stock, I just had a 07 husqvarna 450smr on my dyno and it came in right around 45 hp, yours should have been similar.
The piston looks like a Pistal or mahle both very good products. Looking forward to see how it comes out.
You and me both!
[popcorn]
Quote from: blalor on September 18, 2016, 03:10:16 PM
Looks like a fun project. $775 doesn't seem to bad for 50% more power.
I've been shopping for a dual sport. I'd like to pick up some off-pavement skills and fall a few times to go get over that fear. :-) I've pretty much settled on a WR250R, but I keep coming across KTMs on ADVrider that look interesting. But it sounds like maybe KTMs are a bit too race-bred for me, if they're wanting a new piston every 100 hours.
Note that it's a little more than $775 with the cam ($215ish) and the carb work ($200)
I got the carb and cylinder sent off to them a couple days ago....
Quote from: Monsterlover on September 21, 2016, 08:28:32 PM
Note that it's a little more than $775 with the cam ($215ish) and the carb work ($200)
I got the carb and cylinder sent off to them a couple days ago....
So $1190 plus labor at $0.25/hr.
More like $1190 plus cherry coke and various snacks.
I set the bar loooooww
Quote from: Monsterlover on September 22, 2016, 03:01:21 AM
More like $1190 plus cherry coke and various snacks.
I set the bar loooooww
I've seen you eat. $.25/hr doesn't cover your snacks.
[laugh]
Can't argue there.
Subscribed! my '05 450 smr could use a few more ponies at the track. This has got me thinking.
Going to dyno tune it afterwards?
Quote from: koko64 on September 27, 2016, 04:05:26 AM
Going to dyno tune it afterwards?
Depends on how it runs. They have a proven combo that I'm following so as long as it's pretty close I'll live with it.
So Thumper Racing (TR from now on) got my box of parts this past Monday.
I got a box back from them today. It shipped Wednesday and I asked them to ship it UPS Orange so I had it Friday and would be able to start reassembly this weekend.
Top. Notch. Operation.
I'll get pics later but the piston is a forged Carillo jobber with some trick (anti heat?) bronze coating on the crown and a black (anti friction?) coating on the skirts. It's a beauty. Came with rings, a wrist pin and retaining clips.
The cylinder I got back came from someone else's bike, which I knew would be the case. It's clean, free of any damage that I could see (from machining I mean) and generally looks good. The hone cross hatch looks great and they have acid etched their logo on the left side of the head. This also came with new base and head gaskets.
The carb had a shot slide gasket so they put in a new one for me. I got my old jets and misc parts back in a bag. they bored the carb from 39-41mm and did a good job of it. The bore is pretty smooth and the slide moves completely free when you twist the throttle open.
Also included are detailed instructions on how to clean the cylinder, check piston to wall clearance as well as ring gap and how they want the engine broken in. I have about 5 hours of steps to get from initial startup to "ok, beat it like Michael Jackson."
One thought that did occur to me is that by increasing the diameter of the piston and cylinder the intake valves would be a little more unshrouded. The air should be better able to develop a flow cone around the valve, though how much difference this will really make is unmeasurable in my situation.
I'll take what I can get.
I just wanna go fast.
Oh make the beast with two backs yeaah! [popcorn] [evil]
I got rid of liter bike to get this 450.
The 450 is faster on the tracks and streets I frequent.
Passing 600's and 1000's on the outside is just satisfying as hell.
Quote from: Monsterlover on September 30, 2016, 04:17:31 PM
(snip)
I'll take what I can get.
I just wanna go fast.
I've seen you go around blind corners in shadowy forests at unsafe speeds. You are already enough.
Pics now. Video with engine noise when you get it complete.
10-4 good buddy!
I'm uploading more pics now and will try to get them up tonight. I have it almost back together.
What's holding me up is I'm pretty sure the cam chain tensioner is toast.
I came up with a super redneck method of grinding piston rings to set the gap. I'm sure you'll all love it ;D
So I ordered a Dirt Tricks cam chain tensioner after some research and a post on ADVrider.
I did, indeed make the beast with two backs up the rings. Gap was a hair too much. Of course I had the head back on it so in addition to new rings I ordered in another head and base gasket.
I also ordered a ring filer for this go around. . .
Just how big a hair too much?
I'm gonna say put the rings and gaskets in the spares box and run it.
Quote from: Speeddog on October 14, 2016, 03:27:21 PM
Just how big a hair too much?
I'm gonna say put the rings and gaskets in the spares box and run it.
Well, I think I was supposed to be at .02 on the top ring and came in at .024. I know I put that one in correctly (letter marked on the "up" side) but I wasn't sure about the oil rings so I sent off an email.
The rings can go either way but he mentioned not to file them and to fit them as they are. Well, the sheet said .015 min and I didn't have that so I went to work.
A little too well I think. . . one came in at .02 and the other was like .026. I put it together anyway but probably shouldn't have. They mentioned it would run but might burn oil. I can't handle oil usage (drives me nuts if it's excessive) so I ordered parts.
And here we are ;D
Run it.
Ring end gap is to ensure they don't expand too much and hit, and possibly break.
Any ring end gap allows combustion gasses through, otherwise oil would last forever. I don't think the extra 10 grand will make a real difference.
I'll be curious to see what Eric thinks. I'm sure he's put one or two together in his day.
I'm on the fence.
Quote from: Monsterlover on October 14, 2016, 03:44:34 PM
I'll be curious to see what Eric thinks. I'm sure he's put one or two together in his day.
I'm on the fence.
He'll add to the confusion...he always does when I ask him a question. [laugh]
[laugh]
Shoot him a message, would you? I'm at a stop light
Post here?
I texted him to check here.
Thanks.
I suppose I could always run it then rering it if there's an issue.
I was all ready to do it this weekend but now you have me thinking about how nice it would be to just finish the reassembly and break it in ;D
My thinking is that since there is always a ring end gap, if it's a little big, it's no biggie. I mean I'm sure there's a calculation to figure how much more pressure you'd lose.
I'm not gonna worry about it.
I already have two votes to run it. I'm curious what Eric thinks.
You and speed dog know what's up as well so I'm pretty much deferring to the group.
Quote from: Monsterlover on October 14, 2016, 05:18:07 PM
I already have two votes to run it. I'm curious what Eric thinks.
You and speed dog know what's up as well so I'm pretty much deferring to the group.
I'll give him a buzz tomorrow and ask him to post up.
he'll likely do that anyway when he's having his coffee at the shop.
I won't be in the garage till Sunday anyhow. That works [thumbsup]
A few questions first as I am not looking at the parts.
Who makes the piston? wiseco,KTM ?
what does the piston kit (different from piston manufacturer) say to run it at?
usually you run the gaps so many .001 per inch of bore. Fore instance a wiseco forged piston will use different formulas depending on if it is a street motor, track motor or race motor. They run them looser as the pressures get higher so for a ring the snot out of it bike you usually run the track formula. Each piston and motor manufacturer will have different ideas on how much to run.
What is the piston?
what is the piston size ( measured in inch or mm)?
Getting away with a +.001" or +.002" should be no problem running one with much more will lead to more blowby. You state .02 is that inches? if so it sounds loose for a top ring what is the KTM spec?
post up what the ring spec's the piston kit seller wants.
top
middle
oil expander rings (1 piece or two?)
Quote from: clubhousemotorsports on October 15, 2016, 06:50:47 AM
A few questions first as I am not looking at the parts.
Who makes the piston? wiseco,KTM ?
what does the piston kit (different from piston manufacturer) say to run it at?
usually you run the gaps so many .001 per inch of bore. Fore instance a wiseco forged piston will use different formulas depending on if it is a street motor, track motor or race motor. They run them looser as the pressures get higher so for a ring the snot out of it bike you usually run the track formula. Each piston and motor manufacturer will have different ideas on how much to run.
What is the piston?
what is the piston size ( measured in inch or mm)?
Getting away with a +.001" or +.002" should be no problem running one with much more will lead to more blowby. You state .02 is that inches? if so it sounds loose for a top ring what is the KTM spec?
post up what the ring spec's the piston kit seller wants.
top
middle
oil expander rings (1 piece or two?)
Piston is Carrillo
Their chart is as follows-
Street/high performance
Top ring bore x .0045
Oil ring min .015 do not file
Drag race / road race
Top ring bore x .005
Oil ring same as above
Nitrous/turbo/blower
Top ring bore x .0055
Oil ring same as above
The sheet from Thumper Racing-
Top ring bore x .0045
Oil rings - Verify there is at least .005 of ring end gap per inch of bore
Bore is 4.015 (all the numbers are inches. 4.015mm would be an awfully small piston)
So according to TR's sheet (and Carrillo's street/high perf category) the top ring should be .018" gap
Oil ring should be .02". I believe I measured .013" then filed way to much. One oil ring was .02 the other was like .026. These are one top and bottom oil ring plus the expander between the two.
I did not use a ring grinder the first time around but I did buy one so that's on hand if I need it.
Think I should redo it?
Top ring was .023" or so.
There is still some question on whether the 2nd ring is in upside down?
There are only the top ring and the oil rings. The top ring is for sure correct and TR told me the oil rings can go either way.
Based on what you posted I would be shocked if those are not wiseco rings. Manufacturers often do not make all the parts but just the forging not rings or pins.
I would get a new pack and size them properly, being a 2-ring piston you will have more blowby anyway I would not want to start out with worn out rings.
Was there a part number on the ring set packaging? I may have some wiseco spares around from sets that were also out of spec. This is obviously why we check on every build.
I could look for a part number but I've already got replacement rings on hand as well as base and head gaskets.
I'll get going on it.
Quote from: Monsterlover on October 16, 2016, 05:09:25 PM
I could look for a part number but I've already got replacement rings on hand as well as base and head gaskets.
I'll get going on it.
Do you have a bucket of Margaritas to ensure success?
I guess I should post some more pics before I get behind on it.
Unboxing the kit-
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y25/900rider/450exc%20big%20bore%20reassembly/IMG_20161001_125655_zps7stnyuym.jpg) (http://s2.photobucket.com/user/900rider/media/450exc%20big%20bore%20reassembly/IMG_20161001_125655_zps7stnyuym.jpg.html)
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y25/900rider/450exc%20big%20bore%20reassembly/IMG_20161001_125723_zpszxse3kgj.jpg) (http://s2.photobucket.com/user/900rider/media/450exc%20big%20bore%20reassembly/IMG_20161001_125723_zpszxse3kgj.jpg.html)
The piston-
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y25/900rider/450exc%20big%20bore%20reassembly/IMG_20161001_125821_zpsyw1pnelv.jpg) (http://s2.photobucket.com/user/900rider/media/450exc%20big%20bore%20reassembly/IMG_20161001_125821_zpsyw1pnelv.jpg.html)
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y25/900rider/450exc%20big%20bore%20reassembly/IMG_20161001_125833_zpsrwukt1cp.jpg) (http://s2.photobucket.com/user/900rider/media/450exc%20big%20bore%20reassembly/IMG_20161001_125833_zpsrwukt1cp.jpg.html)
-
(http://s2.photobucket.com/user/900rider/media/450exc%20big%20bore%20reassembly/IMG_20161001_125900_zpsqwnwxhv3.jpg%5B/img)
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y25/900rider/450exc%20big%20bore%20reassembly/IMG_20161001_125900_zpsqwnwxhv3.jpg) (http://s2.photobucket.com/user/900rider/media/450exc%20big%20bore%20reassembly/IMG_20161001_125900_zpsqwnwxhv3.jpg.html)
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y25/900rider/450exc%20big%20bore%20reassembly/IMG_20161001_125906_zpswnutwgxs.jpg) (http://s2.photobucket.com/user/900rider/media/450exc%20big%20bore%20reassembly/IMG_20161001_125906_zpswnutwgxs.jpg.html)
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y25/900rider/450exc%20big%20bore%20reassembly/IMG_20161001_125916_zps110n2coh.jpg) (http://s2.photobucket.com/user/900rider/media/450exc%20big%20bore%20reassembly/IMG_20161001_125916_zps110n2coh.jpg.html)
Quote from: ducpainter on October 16, 2016, 05:13:51 PM
Do you have a bucket of Margaritas to ensure success?
Maaaybe
I've seen similar coatings on piston skirts before, but what's that baby shit brown stuff on the piston crowns?
The cylinder. The logo is, I'm assuming, acid etched.
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y25/900rider/450exc%20big%20bore%20reassembly/IMG_20161001_130525_zpsqe1bqlcp.jpg) (http://s2.photobucket.com/user/900rider/media/450exc%20big%20bore%20reassembly/IMG_20161001_130525_zpsqe1bqlcp.jpg.html)
My redneck ring grinder. Don't laugh, it worked really well. Gaps were dead square.
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y25/900rider/450exc%20big%20bore%20reassembly/IMG_20161001_161933_zpsegp7vemp.jpg) (http://s2.photobucket.com/user/900rider/media/450exc%20big%20bore%20reassembly/IMG_20161001_161933_zpsegp7vemp.jpg.html)
Ring pliers help but aren't absolutely necessary. I had them left over from a previous build.
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y25/900rider/450exc%20big%20bore%20reassembly/IMG_20161001_163347_zps8tuw7c1m.jpg) (http://s2.photobucket.com/user/900rider/media/450exc%20big%20bore%20reassembly/IMG_20161001_163347_zps8tuw7c1m.jpg.html)
There's really no wasted space down in there. Note the oil squirters.
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y25/900rider/450exc%20big%20bore%20reassembly/IMG_20161001_171018_zps9yjongen.jpg) (http://s2.photobucket.com/user/900rider/media/450exc%20big%20bore%20reassembly/IMG_20161001_171018_zps9yjongen.jpg.html)
I installed one of the wrist pin clips (left side) and slipped the pin through the roof with the piston and cylinder together. Then installed the right side clip.
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y25/900rider/450exc%20big%20bore%20reassembly/IMG_20161001_171700_zpsexujrrif.jpg) (http://s2.photobucket.com/user/900rider/media/450exc%20big%20bore%20reassembly/IMG_20161001_171700_zpsexujrrif.jpg.html)
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y25/900rider/450exc%20big%20bore%20reassembly/IMG_20161001_172145_zpsd5rjybd3.jpg) (http://s2.photobucket.com/user/900rider/media/450exc%20big%20bore%20reassembly/IMG_20161001_172145_zpsd5rjybd3.jpg.html)
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y25/900rider/450exc%20big%20bore%20reassembly/IMG_20161001_173445_zpsyosaw7kh.jpg) (http://s2.photobucket.com/user/900rider/media/450exc%20big%20bore%20reassembly/IMG_20161001_173445_zpsyosaw7kh.jpg.html)
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y25/900rider/450exc%20big%20bore%20reassembly/IMG_20161001_181214_zpswrbhpjdy.jpg) (http://s2.photobucket.com/user/900rider/media/450exc%20big%20bore%20reassembly/IMG_20161001_181214_zpswrbhpjdy.jpg.html)
So now I'll pull the head and cylinder back of, shit can the rings, refit new rings and squish it all back together and hope it holds together for another hundred, or more, hours of fun.
100 may not seem like much but it's a race engine. 10,000rpm rev limit and it sees it, believe me. It always catches me by surprise because the engine continues to make more power and then it starts coughing as the limiter kicks in.
11.9:1 compression ratio too. I'm not sure that changes by moving to a larger piston.
Quote from: ducpainter on October 16, 2016, 05:18:49 PM
I've seen similar coatings on piston skirts before, but what's that baby shit brown stuff on the piston crowns?
I think it helps keep heat from conducting through the crown, which helps make power.
Quote from: Monsterlover on October 16, 2016, 05:25:58 PM
I think it helps keep heat from conducting through the crown, which helps make power.
Is it a ceramic...silicone...have to kill you if I tell you?
No idea but ceramic sounds on point.
That's a very nice piston.
Pin oilers, good stuff.
I hadn't grasped the fact that there was no second ring.
I agree with the Vet, redo it.
Yep, truly a racing arrangement. You got a motor timer on the bike?
Quote from: koko64 on October 16, 2016, 11:49:15 PM
Yep, truly a racing arrangement. You got a motor timer on the bike?
A what?
The little clock that counts the hours of work the motor does. You can activate it manually or hook it up to the ignition depending which one you get. They're quite fashionable ;D.
Quote from: Monsterlover on October 17, 2016, 05:17:45 AM
A what?
If English was his first language...
he'd call it an engine hour meter. ;D
Definitely not the Queens English ;D. Yep one of those, or as my oem Superleggera manual would have stated " The chrono of the engine time". :D
[laugh]
Yes it has a timer built into the speedo.
Currently at 107
Cool. So you reset it after each rebuild?
Quote from: koko64 on October 17, 2016, 05:46:36 AM
Cool. So you reset it after each rebuild?
I'm not sure. I don't believe it can be reset, much like the odometer.
I wonder if the dealer can reset it?
Quote from: koko64 on October 18, 2016, 01:30:41 AM
I wonder if the dealer can reset it?
Why would you want to reset it though? I just did a piston and a couple gaskets.
I could see the logic if I did every bearing and seal. As it sits the bike has 107hrs but the piston is really the only thing with zero ;)
As long as you keep track of time I guess. ;) Ten hours could go quick when you're having fun.
I think Einstein said exactly that ;D
(http://hellonwheels.com.au/bmxshop/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/alive.jpg)
Video...
sound clip? [evil]
Quote from: ducpainter on October 22, 2016, 11:13:08 AM
Video...
sound clip? [evil]
Both are planned.
I have to idle till the radiators are too hot to touch twice with a complete cool down between (cooling now)
Then ride for 3 hrs using half throttle or less, then 2 more hours with 3/4 throttle or less.
Change oil and filter.
Fully broken in after that.
The ring grinder helped though I found it a little awkward to use. I'm glad i got it though.
The bike sounds noticeably different. The frequency is lower and the raspy pop at the top of the exhaust pulse seems to be gone.
Some of that may be from running with no air filter, some may be from the replaced slide gasket in the carb. The old one was toast and I don't know how that affects things like sound and performance. Though, anytime anything leaks in a carb it's no good.
I'm planning to ride tomorrow as it's supposed to hit 60°
I am very encouraged.
It always amazes me how different recommended break in procedures can be.
Quote from: ducpainter on October 22, 2016, 12:09:01 PM
It always amazes me how different recommended break in procedures can be.
What are you used to?
Depends what the bike will be used for, and how much has been 'rebuilt'.
If the bottom end hasn't been touched, all you need to do is seat rings, and that happens pretty quick. A couple of heat cycles and then plenty of throttle with moderate rpms.
I don't believe in partial throttle for ring seating.
I've always been a proponent of vary the load
Quote from: Monsterlover on October 22, 2016, 12:24:16 PM
I've always been a proponent of vary the load
I'd agree.
I know Eric uses multiple heat cycles, and then just runs it.
Maybe it doesn't matter. ;D
Quote from: ducpainter on October 22, 2016, 12:36:05 PM
I'd agree.
I know Eric uses multiple heat cycles, and then just runs it.
Maybe it doesn't matter. ;D
The only way to know for sure would be to build two identical bikes. Break one in one way and the other the other way.
Then use them in the same way all the time and see which one blows up first ;D
Who has time for that?!?
How much work time with hard use is expected from this top end kit?
Quote from: koko64 on October 22, 2016, 12:57:52 PM
How much work time with hard use is expected from this top end kit?
It's still a street bike, that I don't ride a whole lot, and as of now it's the only bike I ride on the track.
Should be a blast. Interesting to hear what the power increase feels like from the saddle.
So...
it's a track bike. ;D
I don't know how to make the video show directly here but here's a link. Spent some time heat cycling and looking for leaks.
I melted a breather hose on the exhaust which then allowed some oil to sputter out onto the seam between the cylinder and head. It looked so much like coolant I thought I had a bad seal on the head gasket.
I fixed the burned hose, routed it a little better and cleaned the head and cylinder. No leaks.
Gave it a test ride. I haven't really beaten it yet but throttle response is better, low end is much better. It revs like a mothermake the beast with two backser. There was a point in second or third where it sounded a lot like a two stroke as far as how fast it was building rpm.
More experimentation needed [evil]
https://youtu.be/dWJBFkAN8-8
Huh. Video did it on it's own. Cool.
Congrats. Nice work.
When do you get to really test it wide open? Track? Or backroads?
Quote from: 1.21GW on October 23, 2016, 11:14:07 AM
Congrats. Nice work.
When do you get to really test it wide open? Track? Or backroads?
Thanks!
Backroads. My season is basically at an end this year. I'd like to have it broken in before I put it up for the winter.
Track days will resume in may or June
Quote from: Monsterlover on October 23, 2016, 11:10:05 AM
Huh. Video did it on it's own. Cool.
Yeah, I'm not sure if we did an update of somekind or YouTube did, but all of my posted videos are now direct.
Quote from: kopfjäger on October 23, 2016, 11:46:27 AM
Yeah, I'm not sure if we did an update of somekind or YouTube did, but all of my posted videos are now direct.
http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=74546.0
You're welcome... :-*
Quote from: Monsterlover on October 23, 2016, 11:09:34 AM
I don't know how to make the video show directly here but here's a link. Spent some time heat cycling and looking for leaks.
I melted a breather hose on the exhaust which then allowed some oil to sputter out onto the seam between the cylinder and head. It looked so much like coolant I thought I had a bad seal on the head gasket.
I fixed the burned hose, routed it a little better and cleaned the head and cylinder. No leaks.
Gave it a test ride. I haven't really beaten it yet but throttle response is better, low end is much better. It revs like a mothermake the beast with two backser. There was a point in second or third where it sounded a lot like a two stroke as far as how fast it was building rpm.
More experimentation needed [evil]
https://youtu.be/dWJBFkAN8-8
Whoever the badass looking mofo is, he seems happy with the outcome. ;)
I don't know about badass but I am happy :D
I put it on the lift when I got back from the test ride and pulled off the skid plate to look for leaks etc. I found none so I let it cool.
I just went out to look at it and found a puddle of coolant under the bike.
So, I cleaned that all up and cleaned the bottom of the engine cases and let it run till the fan came on.
Nothing.
I am suspecting it was still in the process of venting excess coolant.
I'll check the level when it cools and keep an eye on things.
So far so good [thumbsup]
I can hear why you're happy, that exhaust note is cracking sharp even on the vid.
Quote from: Monsterlover on October 23, 2016, 03:45:19 PM
I don't know about badass but I am happy :D
I put it on the lift when I got back from the test ride and pulled off the skid plate to look for leaks etc. I found none so I let it cool.
I just went out to look at it and found a puddle of coolant under the bike.
So, I cleaned that all up and cleaned the bottom of the engine cases and let it run till the fan came on.
Nothing.
I am suspecting it was still in the process of venting excess coolant.
I'll check the level when it cools and keep an eye on things.
So far so good [thumbsup]
I just over filled the SBK...I need to empty the over flow bottle between the cylinders to get rid of the anti freeze. The people at Grattan can smell that a mile away. ;D
Quote from: koko64 on October 23, 2016, 03:56:16 PM
I can hear why you're happy, that exhaust note is cracking sharp even on the vid.
You know, that's just the stock can that I modified. The outlet is 25-30mm but hidden down inside is a restrictor that's maybe 14mm.
I cut that part out :D
It's not as good sounding at a proper akro can but it also didn't cost $350 to do.
Quote from: ducpainter on October 23, 2016, 04:06:54 PM
I just over filled the SBK...I need to empty the over flow bottle between the cylinders to get rid of the anti freeze. The people at Grattan can smell that a mile away. ;D
They let you out with regular coolant?
How's it goin'?
Quote from: koko64 on November 01, 2016, 09:47:13 PM
How's it goin'?
It's going [evil]
It pulls pretty hard way up into the high rpm range. It's definitely an improvement.
It's been puking coolant though. I let it sit after a ride and after it's cooler there will be a small puddle under the bike.
With each ride the puddle is smaller. The level is still good in the rad so I'm feeling like it's just getting rid of the extra.
I can't wait to hit the track next year.
So all that's left now are tires, brakes, suspension, maybe a slipper clutch....
It's only money, right? They print it everyday.
;D
[thumbsup]
Do you back it into tight turns or hang off? Reason I asked was related to the effect of a slipper clutch.
Quote from: koko64 on November 03, 2016, 05:33:52 AM
[thumbsup]
Do you back it into tight turns or hang off? Reason I asked was related to the effect of a slipper clutch.
I've had the back come around by accident on my 950 but that's it.
I don't love it when my tires stop sticking to the ground. The tracks I'm on I hang off. It's the faster way around.
I'm interested in the slipper only to cut down on the strain to the engine. Even then it's just interest. I'm pretty good at rev matching (I don't use the clutch for down shifts)
A slipper clutch should suit you then. When you have had one you miss it. Wouldn't mind one in my Gixxer.