So I tampered with a perfectly good running M750 engine that still had its original Threebond on the case halves. Installed a light flywheel, wet slipper clutch, Ca-Cycleworks coils and Pederzini V1.0 ICM's. Bike won't start, just cranks. (it's a nice sounding crank at least)
I'm betting I didn't set the bracket and pickups correctly. Possibly the air gap as well. Air gap is self explanatory but the bracket and its markings are voodoo to me. Of course I didn't sharpie its position beforehand, that would've been way too intelligent of me. I've tried swapping out the coils and ICM's for stock parts to no avail. CCW gaskets are on the way so I can bin this crappy Permatex. The Haynes manual is no help, it simply tells me to do what I already didn't, which is to mark the brackets position ahead of time.
Any help is vastly appreciated.
Took about 10 minutes to find this in a search...you should try it. :P I'll bill you. ;D
http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=66961.msg1237501#msg1237501
Quote from: ducpainter on February 28, 2018, 05:11:25 PM. :P I'll bill you. ;D
http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=66961.msg1237501#msg1237501
It's funny you mention that, I was about to PM you a proposal.
BTW 10 minutes for a mod with tens of thousands of posts would probably be an hour for anyone else. ;). Depending on how your search engine is coded.
Btw I dud attempt a search and found a couple leads, but photo bucket "cock blocked" me lol
DP, one more question. It seems I need to find TDC before I even begin to set the bracket. Noob question but what's the easiest way to do this? I remember something called the "straw trick" which would be inserting a straw into the vertical pistons spark plug hole and rotating the crank until the straw pokes out the furthest.
Again I'm sure this is covered in another thread but if it's also contained within this one for posterity, then this thread won't be a total waste and could help future lurkers.
N/m I got it... I'll post the link shirtless in an edited version of this post.
The trick with the DMF search engine is to be just specific enough.
We had a guy here that was a master at it.
derby was his screen name. That replaced the word derby on the DMF, if you don't have the net nanny turned off, because he could find any duplicate thread in seconds.
Quote from: ducpainter on March 01, 2018, 06:43:02 AM
The trick with the DMF search engine is to be just specific enough.
We had a guy here that was a master at it.
derby was his screen name. That replaced the word derby on the DMF, if you don't have the net nanny turned off, because he could find any duplicate thread in seconds.
I'm gen X so I grew up with a foot on each side of web technology. That typically makes are generation more tech savvy, because to even use the internet in the late 90s you had to know at least a little code. I do like how you can find specific phrases by confining them within quotes.
One mistake I made more than once was not searching from the main page.
I actually like to search from the forum where it will likely be posted. Eliminates a bunch of noise.
Going back in time to my FW install which was a huge pain in the D compared to the older single phase...
If I wanted to be positive I got that right.. After finding TD and putting the case cover back on, the left dot should align with the arrow on the inspection window, or at least close to it, amiright?
Oh and this post makes me feel much less ashamed;
Quote from: chris on March 20, 2014, 04:53:40 PM
I've only done like 4 or 5 carb'd flywheels, but that is absolutely a wrong assumption. There's way too much play with the plate's mounts to the engine case to get repeatability.
Whenever making any adjustments to the plate the pickups are on, you need to iteratively perform the above procedure until both pickups measure 0.027", rotating the engine back and forth.
You cannot adjust the front one then adjust the back one and call it done. You have to then re-check The very last time ever I have messed with one of these plates was a decade ago when I did the full 100hp recipe for a customer. I adjusted the timing 4 or 5 times trying to find the right balance of starting but able to still run. Ignitech saved my butt on that one.
Chris
I use the mark on the layshaft.
That's TDC for the horizontal cylinder.
Quote from: ducpainter on March 01, 2018, 08:27:12 AM
I use the mark on the layshaft.
That's TDC for the horizontal cylinder.
Not sure what you mean... The only thing visible through the inspection window is the leading edge of the FW.
Other side of the bike. Bottom pulley for the belts.
Quote from: ducpainter on March 01, 2018, 09:01:00 AM
Other side of the bike. Bottom pulley for the belts.
Ahhh... So rotate the valve train until the mark on the drive pulley aligns but be sure to rotate via the crank or rear wheel obviously, rather than move the pulleys independently.
Aside from the obvious nut backing out which I'm not concerned about, having used the Nichols jamb nuts and proper torque, could incorrect installation of the FW cause an engine to implode or just lead to a no start/ crappy idle/misfires etc?
I also need to make sure I have the wiring to the coils done right, which us a little more difficult since I snipped off the crappy ends and soldered on female quick connects on the narrow leads. The only part that's still original is the flag terminal, which I'm fairly positive goes on the wider of the 2 male ends.
No need for anyone to tell me I should've had a shop install the FW and set the timing, I already know. [bang]
Did you solder on the ignition boxes?
Quote from: ducpainter on March 01, 2018, 11:05:18 AM
Did you solder on the ignition boxes?
No but I have a professional quality crimp tool and I'm confident in the connections. So, flag type connector on the bigger male post and straight connector on the narrower of the 2, yes?
I also completely removed my flywheel to be absolutely sure the woodruff key lined up with the slot in the crankshaft. It does.
Except... I'm now waiting on a flat battery to recharge. :(
Ok so I easily found TDC except none of the dots on the FW are even close to the pickup centers. Shite.
Well now I've completed gone and make the beast with two backsed myself. During another rotation of the rear wheel, the center cog that rides on the crank drifted off. Now TDC according to the timing belts isn't TDC anymore. Wonderful.
Pictures...
Well I have bigger issues now - the FW dots didn't line up anywhere near the triggers would reach so I pulled it to double check my work then carefully rotated the engine via the rear wheel.. I wasn't careful enough because the cog that rides on the back of the crank, that turns the big gear which turns the horizontal belt walked off the shaft and I fubared my engine timing. I've removed the belts to confirm all the valves close properly, which they do, but I can't turn the crank a full 360 degrees without running into interference. Pretty sure the self inflicted wounds I've caused have turned this job from moderately easy to way over my head. Time to go to the local dealer and hope they're honest and reasonable.
Bit hard to follow, these events.
1. Ign bracket was mounted by chance or what?
2. Was correct p-u leads to correct ign box when starting?
3. Was belts mounted correctly mounted?
4. " I've removed the belts to confirm all the valves close properly, which they do, but I can't turn the crank a full 360 degrees without running into interference." What do interfer?
If all was correcly mounted, except ign bracket, all that would happend during starting efforts would be
no start because of bad ign timing.
Walk us through what you did from the start of this project.
Quote from: greenmonster on March 03, 2018, 10:25:43 AM
Bit hard to follow, these events.
1. Ign bracket was mounted by chance or what?
2. Was correct p-u leads to correct ign box when starting?
3. Was belts mounted correctly mounted?
4. " I've removed the belts to confirm all the valves close properly, which they do, but I can't turn the crank a full 360 degrees without running into interference." What do interfer?
If all was correcly mounted, except ign bracket, all that would happend during starting efforts would be
no start because of bad ign timing.
Walk us through what you did from the start of this project.
I wish I could post pics, but there's a small gear the rides at the very back of the crank literally up against the main bearing. This turns a larger cog which rotates the belts. That's the gear that I allowed to walk off its home. When I tried to put it back, I foolishly rotated the larger cog which turns to belts in order to get it back in. Afterwards, my primary timing belt cog went from lining up perfectly with the nub on the inner rubber belt cover and the dot on the cog to being off by 90 degrees or so... What I felt like was way too far off. At this point I removed the timing belts so I could carefully turn them by hand. The valve train spins freely a full 360 degrees before meeting heavy resistance, as do the pistons which will go a full revolution before meeting a wall of sorts. I believe this is piston to valve contact and don't trust myself enough to get it right.
As for the ignition p/u bracket - I found TDC (before I removed the belts) using a straw in the spark plug hole.. When the straw reached its highest point the dot on the timing gear also lined up properly. But I could not get the FW in a position where the dots could line up above each pickup, no matter how many times I R&R'd. Hence toting the crank one more time in the hopes "every other" revolution was the correct one...thst perhaps TDC at the compression stroke was different than the exhaust stroke... If that makes sense?
It's embarrassing but apparently I can't install a FW properly. And now my engine timing is obviously outta wack because I've been carefully rotating both the valve train and the crank. Since I really don't wanna brick my engine it's going to the dealer regardless, but I'd be very curious how to correct my F up. Right now my horizontal intake valve is closed, but the timing mark on the cog is exactly 90 degrees from the dot, exactly the opposite of how it's supposed to be, and it doesn't want to come to a rest at the dot.. It'll either spring up to 12 o'clock or down to 6 o'clock.
Obviously I'm lost here. I do have fresh belts, and if you folks think I could perhaps install them loosely and manually, carefully, turn the engine until it's timed right I'm willing to give that a shot. But I'm only maybe a 4.5/10 when it comes to mechanical aptitude. I can, however, follow instructions.
Picture 2 of 12, the big lightened gear. Upper LH corner. That's what I disturbed. Sorry I can't do better, I'm out of town at the moment..
If I were to install my new belts with all the dots correctly lined up, my forward cylinder should be automatically be at TDC - yes or no?
Basically this gear I keep referring to is officially known as the idler gear for the cam drive shaft. This small gear is what walked off the crsnk/layshaft while I was turning the engine. Unfortunately I wasn't able to immediately stop turning as soon as it walked off, and now the big timing gear is not where it's supposed to be.
See number 12, apparently sold in pairs and aptly named "timing gears pair. The smaller of the 2 is what walked off the layshaft, which allowed the larger one to freewheel a bit.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/dq5IjMisw7olI1QB3
My thought is : reinstall the timing belts and set to their appropriate marks. Manually turn the larger timing gear until the dimples on the larger and smaller line up. Confirm the engine turns over a complete 360 degrees a good 4 times. Then reinstall the sprag, starter clutch gear, flywheel etc.
Another edit: this thread describes my "accident" almost precisely :
http://www.ducati.org/forums/1098-1198/64043-timing-gears-misaligned.html#/topics/64043?page=2
I think there must be a way to get the lower end all timed without using the upper belt pulleys as a reference.
Do you have a service manual?
Quote from: ducpainter on March 04, 2018, 03:58:09 AM
I think there must be a way to get the lower end all timed without using the upper belt pulleys as a reference.
Do you have a service manual?
I was hoping for that as well, but I'm afraid the way the drive pulley is "spring loaded" that'd be impossible without a special tool. No I do not own a service manual, just the Haynes and Synder manuals. There are paperback 5 language versions on ebay for not *too* much.
Can I confirm you guys understand my dilemma without any further pics? Because anything else I can show you is my left case half, with the layshaft stripped backwards to the main bearing... And the smaller drive pulley, flywheel, magneto sprag clutch etc strewn about my bench. :(
I accidentally linked to the 3rd page ;
http://www.ducati.org/forums/1098-1198/64043-timing-gears-misaligned.html#/topics/64043?page=2
Exactly my issue.
DP - I felt this deserved it's own thread.... Could you please delete the posts regarding timing gear misalignment here?
Is it possible to mount the FW you bought wrong? That FW is correct for your engine?
FW assembly only fits one way on crank. Sounds like problems starts w FW in place.
"See number 12" That`s a washer. You mean 13 Belt roller loosened (from Woodruff key)?!?
Timing left side: Forget belt side.
All can be aligned w dots etc, follow Haynes.
Then go belt side.
But first, I`d check the valves so they don`t leak, after your different engine turns via rear wheel.
Quote from: LowercaseJake on March 04, 2018, 07:33:26 AM
DP - I felt this deserved it's own thread.... Could you please delete the posts regarding timing gear misalignment here?
It's actually easier to follow the saga in one thread rather than have all the info split up.