The Official "Dogs of the DMF" Thread

[Popeye the Sailor]

Here's Darmah in a brief "pause" moment.

You should get the ears cropped, or else the breed standard won't be preserved.

[Kopfjager]

I would say, don't let them walk in front of you. (they are always in charge then). Beside you is the best.

And old (well not that old) is a drop and step move while on the leash. (regular collar) Choke up a foot or 3 on the leash. When walking the dog, if he/she starts to pull on the leash, drop the slack and step off in the opposite direction.

The dog will haul ass when the slack is dropped, then come flying back in the direction you (you) went. Usually doesn't take them more than a few of those to figure out where they (they) are supposed to be walking.

[Kopfjager]

Sac also mentioned treats. I have and will always disagree with using treats to get a dog to do what "I" want him/her to do. Praise is the answer. (lots of praise, when they do what "You" want).

I don't want them to develop learned behavior, that when they do what "I" want them to do, they will get a treat.

They do what I want, because that's what I want them to do. Not because their gonna get a snacky cake. 

[somegirl]

Sac also mentioned treats. I have and will always disagree with using treats to get a dog to do what "I" want him/her to do. Praise is the answer. (lots of praise, when they do what "You" want).

I don't want them to develop learned behavior, that when they do what "I" want them to do, they will get a treat.

They do what I want, because that's what I want them to do. Not because their gonna get a snacky cake. 

You just need to make sure the food is used as a reward, not as a bribe.  That's what clicker training / operant conditioning is all about.  The food is used for teaching the behavior but it doesn't mean you will always need to have food to get the behavior.

And it doesn't have to be food, anything the dog sees as positive can be used (tug with a favorite toy, etc.).  If praise from you is strong enough that is fine, but for many dogs it is not.

[Kopfjager]

You just need to make sure the food is used as a reward, not as a bribe.  That's what clicker training / operant conditioning is all about.  The food is used for teaching the behavior but it doesn't mean you will always need to have food to get the behavior.

And it doesn't have to be food, anything the dog sees as positive can be used (tug with a favorite toy, etc.).  If praise from you is strong enough that is fine, but for many dogs it is not.

I still disagree, with it being used as a reward. A reward for I want him/her to do? Negative. Praise is the reward. The treat will become learned behavior. I don't want that. I want him/her to do what "I" want, not what they want.

[Kopfjager]

Any and everything you want to or can learn about training a dog can be learned from Barbara Woodhouse.

"Dogs are easy to train. It's the people that own them are hard to train."

I learned a lot from this lady. 



Barbara Woodhouse On I Love 1980. WALKIES!

[somegirl]

I think we'll have to agree to disagree.

I really like Don't Shoot the Dog by Karen Pryor, explains operant conditioning and how it works, for animals and for people, and why using treats to teach a behavior doesn't mean they will be dependent on treats.

I used clicker training to teach my dogs agility, with plenty of treats at the beginning or when training a new behavior, but when we went into the ring, it was all done without treats, just praise.  Notice no collar either.

[Kopfjager]

I think we'll have to agree to disagree.

I really like Don't Shoot the Dog by Karen Pryor, explains operant conditioning and how it works, for animals and for people, and why using treats to teach a behavior doesn't mean they will be dependent on treats.

I used clicker training to teach my dogs agility, with plenty of treats at the beginning or when training a new behavior, but when we went into the ring, it was all done without treats, just praise.  Notice no collar either.

Of course, but at that point of training, you are way beyond  walking on a leash, coming to you when called etc. etc. If you have time read one of Barbara Woodhouse's books. She was an amazing lady, and loved dogs. I don't recall treats every being involved. i could be wrong, wouldn't be the first time. 

[LMT]

Just because Woodhouse did not use treats does not mean that they are not a good idea or valid method. I have clicker/treat trained 3 dogs with great results.  And I grew up in a house that only used choke collars on our dogs.

Ask your parents how you were potty trained.  Tends to be lots of treats involved there.

[metallimonster]

Thanks for all the tips guys.  Kitana is half wolf so things that work with most dogs don't work with her sometimes.  She kind of acts more like a cat than a dog occasionaly.  I've tried using treats but she'll act like she doesn't care about them and drop them on the ground and keep walking.  Like I said before she's 8 so trying to break her (very very strong willed) is not worth it. She usually only pulls for about 10 minutes and then settles in for decent walk.  Weird thing is that I can run with her and she stays right by me.  I wanted to try the new leash to see if I can trust her so I just went and bought some climbing rope and used some instructions on how to make one.  She did pretty good but I think she could get out of it too easy.

[triangleforge]

On the pulling issue, we have had good luck with our ancient Shar Pei by simply hooking the leash to the front of his harness, rather than the ring at the back; since his shoulders & neck are big and muscular, a regular collar just slips off his head, but hooking to the back ring of the harness puts him in full sled-dog mode - not only did he want to pull, it just felt better to him the harder we tried to pull the other direction.

I investigated the Gentle Leader Easy Walk harness (different than the head harness), and figured we could try out the concept before buying one by simply hooking the leash at his chest. Here's a photo of the product from Gentle Leader; we just use the traditional two loop harness we already had:



The difference was pretty remarkable within just a couple of walks - when he pulls it isn't painful, but it's just not really fun for him anymore. We still need to keep working on the training part, but it's made enough difference that I don't feel the need to buy the purpose-built harness from Gentle Leader.

Now, since we've instituted a no-pee policy on walks (unless the human intentionally stops and says it's OK), we've got to figure out a way to deal with his new trick of peeing without breaking stride.   

[akmnstr]

I remember the Barbara Woodhouse show on PBS.  I have one of her books and used it when I started training dogs.  I like her idea of "no bad dogs."  If that is true there are a lot of bad owners around.  I haven't used treats until recently.  We now have a shy rescue dog.  I am trying to get her to approach me using treats.  I at last give in to using treats and I find myself with a dog that is not motivated by food. 

[Triple J]

There is more than one way to train a dog. I don't use treats much, but that doesn't mean using them is wrong. The important thing is that the dog is trained. Makes both them and the owner much happier. 

[Polpetta]

The best thing about loving your dogs is figuring out how to communicate with  each of them best. They are happier and what we call "trained" when we can help them communicate with us to reach our goals of playing, praise, exercised, and being treated well! 

Each of our dogs have different needs, and  issue....what they all want is love and attention. It is the most incredible thing to see their personalities, some of them fragmented, but when you seem them bloom, it is better than the best.

I have to go because I have three puppies who are being too cute with my husband and want love and attention

[SacDuc]

AAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGG!!!!!


We started taking our dogs to a new day care place about five months ago. The provide training services as well. They've been around for 20 years and are well regarded. The very first day we brought them we inquired about training for our shepherd.

This guy:





We were told, we will call you to set up a time. For FIVE make the beast with two backsING MONTHS every time I inquired I was told, the owner will cal you to set up a time. And never a call. We even ran into the guy at the hardware store and AGAIN were told we would get a call. No call. I finally asked a lady that works there if she could recommend another trainer. She starts in saying, "Well the owner here does the training, I can have him give you a call . . ." WHOA WHOA WHOA! Back that horse up! In my . . . ahem . . . very reserved and polite manner I carefully explained to the lady that it had become clear to me that they had no interest in training my dog. She got the picture. She gave me the name and number of another trainer.

The next day the owner calls and is very apologetic. They agree to do an evaluation for free the following weekend. Okay. Fine. The evaluation went well and we got a few tips. Again he was apologetic and explained that he has been very busy with some sort of video project. The sort of video project became clear when he let the word "pilot" slip. make the beast with two backs. I live too close to LA. But whatever, at least the training for my dog is under way. They expressed some interest in taping our training sessions. I'm not real keen on that. At all. Perhaps I'm just afraid the camera won't be accurately capture my sparkling personality.

Our first round of real training is supposed to happen this Saturday. The owner told my wife they would be taping. Um, I have a problem with that. My problem is that I am also paying for the training to the tune of $150/hr. I'm not paying this guy so he can get footage that he is going to go make more money off of. Perhaps if the training was free I might sign the waiver. But really, I don't even want to be in the make the beast with two backsing show. Just like the past five months I JUST WANT TRAINING FOR MY DOG!! I don't care about your little project, I care about my dog. I pay you money and you help me work out is behavior issues. That is all I want out of this transaction. I tell my wife to call back and tell them that I am not paying money to be in a make the beast with two backsing reality TV pilot.

They have the nerve to tell her that they are only training dogs that are going to video taped! WHERE THE make the beast with two backs WAS THAT LITTLE TIDBIT FIVE GODDAMN MONTHS AGO!?! Or last week for that matter. What a waste of time. I'm so pissed. We are going to go to the appointment this Saturday. But I am not signing a waiver. If he won't train our dog then I guess I'll just have to start over with someone else.

sac