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Author Topic: New Mexico's mods and help thread...  (Read 62893 times)
kingbaby
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« Reply #30 on: June 01, 2009, 08:37:09 AM »



so i was thinking i wana try and set up my suspension to my weight..i know i can just go to pjs and do it for 35 buckos...but what fun would that be...a learning experience, anyone wana help me.....<cough><cough> kingbaby  Grin bow down
and teach me the way oh wise ben kenobi  Cool

Whenever you're ready.  waytogo
« Last Edit: June 01, 2009, 01:32:56 PM by kingbaby » Logged

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Ratfink749
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« Reply #31 on: June 01, 2009, 08:37:55 AM »

Don't mean to butt in here, but setting the sag is dang easy. The main difficulty is gathering enough hands to hold up the bike with you on it and take the measurements. Compression and rebound dampening you can tweak to your own preference.


Tis true..  Sag is one of the easier things to setup when there are enough hands available.  (my only issue is finding a dang metric ruler or tape measure. Mine are all American)  Somewhere I've got a good guide to setting up baseline compression/rebound.  It seemed to work fairly well on mine.  I think there was something in Last years Trackday Guide from Roadracing World.  I'll have to see if I can dig it out.

------>found it! After I re-read it I'll see if I can summarize it and post it up here.  Not sure I'm up for retyping an entire article.  (however.. there is *nothing* better to do at work today.. Thank you for declaring bankruptcy GM!) 
« Last Edit: June 01, 2009, 08:49:24 AM by Ratfink749 » Logged

Sometimes when you say no, you really mean YES, that is why we have the safe word.. "FLÜGGÅƎNK∂€ČHIŒβØL∫ÊN"  If at any time the pleasure is too much, simply say the safe word, and we will stop"


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« Reply #32 on: June 01, 2009, 10:45:05 AM »

Don't mean to butt in here, but setting the sag is dang easy. The main difficulty is gathering enough hands to hold up the bike with you on it and take the measurements. Compression and rebound dampening you can tweak to your own preference.



im sure easy for u guys that have done it before...and i never have...so something learning for me!!!


Tis true..  Sag is one of the easier things to setup when there are enough hands available.  (my only issue is finding a dang metric ruler or tape measure. Mine are all American)  Somewhere I've got a good guide to setting up baseline compression/rebound.  It seemed to work fairly well on mine.  I think there was something in Last years Trackday Guide from Roadracing World.  I'll have to see if I can dig it out.

------>found it! After I re-read it I'll see if I can summarize it and post it up here.  Not sure I'm up for retyping an entire article.  (however.. there is *nothing* better to do at work today.. Thank you for declaring bankruptcy GM!) 

ah ur sooo sweet, but u dont have to ype it up......i can always get the mag from ya  chug
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spankin™

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« Reply #33 on: June 01, 2009, 11:06:16 AM »

Last time I was at PJ's, Shanon let me see the preload (to my weight with all gears), compression and rebound settings and three of us managed to get it done on the 1098s. The rear preload lock nut is a beast, be careful not to destroy it! There is material online to understand it and Kawboy sent me a link a while back, however 30minutes with Shanon at PJ's makes it easy even for my stupid head!  waytogo

http://www.gostar-racing.com/club/useful_information.htm

JJ
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Ratfink749
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« Reply #34 on: June 01, 2009, 11:19:49 AM »

Well here it is. Yep I was bored. I read through it a couple of times to proofread, but  I guarantee nothing in the Grammar and punctuation and spelling departments.  Either way, Its a pretty decent read for someone who's never messed with suspension before.  Hope it helps someone else as it has helped me.   waytogo


Suspension Set-up for Dummies
By Michael Gougis
Printed in Roadracing World 2008 Trackday Directory

   Its easy for the novice to sportbike riding to look at this knobs, dials, screws and threaded collars on the motorcycles suspension and reach one of three conclusions:
*They must have gotten it right at the factory
*Somewhere in the middle of the adjustment range must be close; or
*This knob goes to 11, so if I crank it all the way up, I'll be going really fast.

   If your new how do you know whats good and whats bad, whats right and whats wrong? Where do you even start? If the bike is handling poorly, which of the six basic adjusters do you move? Which way to you turn them?
   And of course, you're trying to figure out what the suspension is doing at a time when you're kinda busy.  You want the suspension to work while cranked over, knee on the ground, feeding in throttle and feeling for the limit of traction at the front and rear.  On a liter bike, that means that while 150+ horsepower are trying to tear the rear wheel loose from the ground, you're trying to analyze suspension movements.  Its not easy; even professional racers sometimes just throw up their hands and tell their crew chief, "I donno, its just not good"
   What you need is a systematic approach to setting up the suspension, trying new things, and working toward a baseline setting that works relatively well. Once thats established, you can experiment with different settings, knowing that you can always go back to what worked.
   That baseline setting does not come about by accident.  There are two ways you can find it.  The first is to take someone else's suggestion for what worked for them- not necessarily a bad approach, but one that denies you the opportunity to learn how to find out how to set a suspension up.
   The other approach is to start from scratch, building up a knowledge of your bike, your suspension, your knowledge of how changes in the suspension affect the bike, and your vocabulary for describing the changes.  That vocabulary is critical not only for discussing chances and improvements with a tuner, but in crystallizing in your mind what the bike is doing.
   Getting a suspension tuning guide from a reputable source in the business can help with this learning process.  There are a few well known suspension tuners who have put together guides for riders who want to try to sort their way through the adjustment maze on their own. Among them are Max McAllister, Whose "Suspension For Mortals" handbook if available from Traxxion Dynamics, and Paul Thede, who has a collection of technical articles on the racetech.com website.
   Another source aimed at the beginner, is "Twiddling Knobs" a DVD put out by Dave Moss of Catalyst Reaction Suspension Tuning.  This 94-Minute DVD walks the rider through the various types of suspension adjusters, what each does, and how to experiment with them on the track. This last bit is particularly valuable, as it gives the new rider some idea of what kind of behavior from the motorcycle is related to which of the adjusters.
   Moss's advice can be broken down into three main areas:
*Set up the springs properly
*Use rebound Damping to get the chassis balanced
*Ride the bike, feel what it does, and spin rebound and compression dampers to dial out the bad stuff (doing these things in order is critical)
   "Dont be afraid to change settings and try things out.  But most importantly get the bike set up to your weight and use that as a benchmark before you then try and hydraulic dampers" Moss says

*Setting up Springs*

   Theres an entire section on the DVD devoted to setting up sag- the distance the suspension compresses when you sit on the bike.  The suspension works best in the middle of its travel; sag is the way you get the suspension sitting right at the beginning of the optimal performance area of its travel.
   Preload adjusts the tension on the springs and adjusts the ammount the bike sags under the rider at a standstill. Front and rear preload are two of the basic suspension adjustments.  Preload typically is adjusted by a hex nut atop the forks and a threaded or ramped collar at the rear.  (Different manufacturers have different adjusters in different places on their motorcycles.  Before you spin anything, look at your model-specific manual and know what you are turning)
   While making this adjustment has been gone over in great detail many times before in this magazine, Moss adds a couple of caveats;
*Be sure you are measuring the total sag. Most motorcycles will sag somewhat under their own weight.  Lift the rear by the subframe, or the front by the handlebars, and make sure the suspension is at full extension before making your first measurement.
*Street settings are somewhat softer than race settings.  In the rear, Moss looks for about 1.125 inch of sag- the distance from full extension that the bike compresses when the rider sits on it- for racing. For street Moss sets the rear sag at 1.25 inches to 1.5 inches.  Up front, Moss sets sag at about 1.50 inches to 1.75 inches for the track and 2.0 inches for the street.  Set the sag when the springs and suspension fluids are warm from riding.
   On the DVD, Moss demonstrates how much difference a riders weight makes in a suspension setup.  He puts one rider on a bike and sets the rear sag at 1.125 inch, then puts a rider about 30 pounds lighter onto the bike.  The bike sags only .75 inch.  Moss points out that in this scenario there isnt enough preload adjustment left to dial in the increase in sag necessary to get the lighter rider into the proper suspension operating range.  A  change in springs is necessary.
   When checking the rear sag, make sure the chain has slack; otherwise, it will cause the rear wheel to stop in its travel.  Youll watch Moss tuck his head under the tailsection when the rider gets on and off.  "You dont want to get kicked in the head and get knocked out," he says.  "It happens."

*Rebound Damping*   

   Rebound damping slows the reaction of the motorcycle to the compressed springs front and rear.  It is caused by forcing oil through orifices in the shock and fork legs.  When the motorcycle hits a bump, the spring compresses, then tries to return to its original length.  Without adequate damping the fork or shock will over extend, then compress again, then over extend again, with cycles shorter and shorter until they stop.  The more rebound damping the slower the return; the less, the quicker.  Front and rear rebound damping are the second two ot the six basic adjustments.
   Too little damping allows the motorcycle to bounce up and down on the spring.  This means that when the next bump comes along, the suspension component is likely not in the proper position to react optimally.  The result is a wheel that is bouncing in an uncontrolled manner, compromising grip and rider conficence.
   To adjust damping at the front, Moss suggests grabbing the brakes and pushing the front end down and releasing it.  Note how many times the forks compress and rebound on their own.  Add rebound damping (typically screw type adjusters atop the forks) until the forks return to their original positionand stay there, or until they rebound slightly passed their original positionand drop back immediately.  This way the forks are ready for the next input.  waiting at the place you carefully set the sag for to allow them to work properly.
   The next step is to make sure both ends of the motorcycle are rebounding at an equal pace.  To check this grab a handlebar and something sold near the back of the bike.  Push both down at the same time.  They should ride back up at roughly the same pace.  Having a friend along to help check your perception can be very useful during this stage.  Since the front rebound damping is set, increase or decrease the rear rebound damping until the rear rises at the same pace as the front.
   Time to go riding.

*Compression Damping*

   This adjustment determines how rapidly the suspension will react to an input.  Front and rear compression damping are the last two of the six basic adjustments.  On the track on on the road, Moss says too little compression damping at the front will feel like sharp shocks through the handlebars, and the bars will start to twitch.  This is because there is little damping to slow the compression input.  The fork may bottom and the front may wash away rather quickly.  Too little at the rear and the bike will move up and down, and as the wheel weights and unweights traction will be compromised and the rear will feel like it wants to come around.
   Too much compression damping at the front feels different.  Instead of the dramatic suspension movements and the occasional sharp jolt, every little bump will send a jolt straight up to the riders arms and shoulders.  Its a miserable ride. Too much compression at the rear feels similar, with the rear not moving around as much, but delivering a constant stream of sharp jolts to the rider.
   Too much rebound damping at either end can also deliver a painfully harsh ride, as the suspension doesnt have time to return to its optimal setting after an input.  A series of inputs packs the suspension into a fraction of its travel and the ride quickly turns harsh.  Too much rebound damping at the rear can also make the bike run wide at the exit of the corner, as the rear squats and the rake therefore increases.
   for the DVD, Moss has mounted a camera on the motorcycle, aimed at the wheels, and he does laps with the suspension set at various places.  This allows the viewer to actually see the differences that the changes in suspension settings make. Too little damping allows the wheel to move wildly, while too mich keep the wheel stable in its travel, but the camera (and the rest of the bike) shakes from the shock of unabsorbed inputs.
   It takes some effort to get it right.  But when you do, what you wind up with is a motorcycle that feels smooth and planted solidly everywhere on the track.  You, The rider, arent paying as much attention to the bike moving underneath you.  You find youself paying far more attention to braking markers, turn-in points, and screwing on the throttle earlier and harder with every lap.  In other words, you, the rider, are spending more time doing what you went to the track to do- ride a high performance motorcycle as fast as you dare.

*Final Thoughts*

   This is Moss's most basic introduction to suspension setup.  Other's do it different ways.  Suspension is one of those areas where even at the Moto-GP level, They dont always get it right.  But if you, the track day rider dont have a plan on how to set it up, the odds of stumbling onto the right combination are pretty slim.
   Most suspension tuners suggest making big changes.  Moss suggests that you figure out how much range you have to play with (the total number of settings or 'clicks' for a particular adjustment) and make changes that total about one-third of the range of adjustment.  If your rebound damping is five 'clicks' out from full soft, and you have 15 'clicks' to choose from and want to add more rebound, try adding 5 more clicks.  You want to make a change that you can feel.  If you've gone the wrong way, you'll know it quickly.
   Keep careful track of the changes you make, and dont be afraid to un-do something that feels worse.  When you get lost, Start over.  Check the sag, set the rebound, and ride again.  A little time spent setting up the suspension at the beginning of the day pays dividends in terms of comfort, speed, and fun the rest of the ride.
   
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Sometimes when you say no, you really mean YES, that is why we have the safe word.. "FLÜGGÅƎNK∂€ČHIŒβØL∫ÊN"  If at any time the pleasure is too much, simply say the safe word, and we will stop"


Dirty people say:
"yep.. Ducati makes a fine motorcycle.. If your into all that Crotchrocket Bulls@#t!"
The Plumber
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« Reply #35 on: June 01, 2009, 02:26:01 PM »

Thanks Fink.. Smiley


Also would love a minute of your time fink... I have a Truck question..

Its my head light relay for my brights..  They wont come on..  I have the whole 5,000 page shop manual if you could help me..

Thanks

M
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Ratfink749
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« Reply #36 on: June 01, 2009, 02:41:09 PM »

(holding my magical wrench to the sky).. uhh.. try page...  1346.. Huh?   Seriously though later this week or saturday hit me up and we can take a look at it.. I've got a meter at my house and can bring a test light home.. I'm sure we can figure something out.   
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Sometimes when you say no, you really mean YES, that is why we have the safe word.. "FLÜGGÅƎNK∂€ČHIŒβØL∫ÊN"  If at any time the pleasure is too much, simply say the safe word, and we will stop"


Dirty people say:
"yep.. Ducati makes a fine motorcycle.. If your into all that Crotchrocket Bulls@#t!"
The Plumber
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« Reply #37 on: June 01, 2009, 03:10:25 PM »

Cool Cool.. Thanks a bunch
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kingbaby
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« Reply #38 on: June 01, 2009, 06:09:59 PM »

Good God,  After running dealerships (including Ducati), and being a paid concept motorcycle designer... that actually go to production,  my head is spinning.  Like JJ said, 30min working with Shanon on a 1098 is worth a fortune  (especially when you chip the frame loosening the lock ring) , and it doesn't take 100 pages to make sense. 
I very much know how to do all this, but I have a rule about a certified tech.  When you ask him if he knows what he is doing, and if it's worth the money, his responce should be,     "Where were you at 8 am this morning" 

 How 'bout we get to the part where people make things better..... and cut stuff up   Evil


Less talkin' more rockin'. 
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Zaster
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« Reply #39 on: June 01, 2009, 06:58:23 PM »

Good God,  After running dealerships (including Ducati), and being a paid concept motorcycle designer... that actually go to production,  my head is spinning.  Like JJ said, 30min working with Shanon on a 1098 is worth a fortune  (especially when you chip the frame loosening the lock ring) , and it doesn't take 100 pages to make sense. 
I very much know how to do all this, but I have a rule about a certified tech.  When you ask him if he knows what he is doing, and if it's worth the money, his responce should be,     "Where were you at 8 am this morning" 

 How 'bout we get to the part where people make things better..... and cut stuff up   Evil


Less talkin' more rockin'. 
Now I'm interested Evil Grin
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« Reply #40 on: June 01, 2009, 07:55:40 PM »

If anyone finds themselves in a situation where they can find tires but no mounting... I have become well versed in the ways of tire-irons and aluminum rims.   bang head
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Ratfink749
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« Reply #41 on: June 02, 2009, 05:58:27 AM »

.. FWIW I have a tire machine at my work that can do motorcycle wheels. I used it to do my 749 set a few months ago. Balancing is another story all together, but I can get them mounted up if anyone needs it.  (and is able to get them off the bike)
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Sometimes when you say no, you really mean YES, that is why we have the safe word.. "FLÜGGÅƎNK∂€ČHIŒβØL∫ÊN"  If at any time the pleasure is too much, simply say the safe word, and we will stop"


Dirty people say:
"yep.. Ducati makes a fine motorcycle.. If your into all that Crotchrocket Bulls@#t!"
DucMouse the Mighty
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« Reply #42 on: June 02, 2009, 07:01:08 AM »

sounds like we could look into balancing  laughingdp


that would be most excellent to sit with shanon and learn how to do alot of stuff....
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spankin™

Copy. Calibration error = humidity, altitude, attitude to tutu, distraction from tutu, stereotype naked rat bikes, human error due to heat, tutu and jealousy!
DucMouse the Mighty
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« Reply #43 on: June 02, 2009, 12:39:35 PM »

hey babe check this out

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spankin™

Copy. Calibration error = humidity, altitude, attitude to tutu, distraction from tutu, stereotype naked rat bikes, human error due to heat, tutu and jealousy!
Punx Clever
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« Reply #44 on: June 02, 2009, 02:15:29 PM »

sounds like we could look into balancing  laughingdp


that would be most excellent to sit with shanon and learn how to do alot of stuff....

I'm thinking of ways to build a balancer.  Two ideas jump out: horizontal axle with precision bearings (heavy side will rotate to the bottom), or a vertical setup where the center of the device sits on a pivot point and has a 360* level bubble on top.

The old man is wanting to do it too.
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2008 S2R 1000 - Archangel

The Edge... there is no honest way to explain it because the only people who really know where it is are the ones who have gone over.  - HST
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