Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates

[DRKWNG]

what is "it"?

Why coat the tank of course.  Hey, while you're at it, want to do mine as well?   

[ducatiz]

Why coat the tank of course.  Hey, while you're at it, want to do mine as well?   

sure, at my standard billing rate!

[junior varsity]

clearly the moisture magically evaporates away, forms a small cloud that travels intuitively to the nearest switchgrass field and rains upon it, thereby creating more crop to use for the production of ethanol!  While computers & other electronics have designed-obsolescence, the motor vehicle supplies market had to be more creative in manufacturing repeat business. Its like your dearest mechanic sprinkling sand in the middle of all your favorite turns. Gotta generate that business somehow when times are slow.

[duccarlos]

Anything to get them through the door. You might decide to spring for that termi ehaust while their taking pics of your tank 

[DRKWNG]

sure, at my standard billing rate!

A bag of chips?  Wait, that only works on Essex girls... 

[ducatiz]

A bag of chips?  Wait, that only works on Essex girls... 

purple chips from the Borgata will do it

[Curmudgeon]

You put it in your tank with the gas and then what?

It magically disappears?  If it removes the water, where does it go? 

According to the MSDS sheets for Stabil, Stabil Marine and Startron, they are all between 94 and 96 percent petroleum naphtha.  The other 4-6% is listed as inert "additive mixture" which does not have any special properties necessary to be listed on the MSDS.

What's frustrating is that all of the fuel stabilizers on the market employ naphtha or some alcohol as the primary ingredient.  2-propanol, butyl alcohol, isopropyl, etc.  Seems to me it's just adding more problematic stuff to the mix.  propanol is aggressively hygroscopic.

So it could be that 4-6% by volume is the magic ingredient, but I doubt it.  I bet if you bought pure petroleum naphtha and put it in your tank it would do the same job.

ducatiz

No chemist here for sure. FAQ says it "bonds" which I take to mean "effectively inerts" H2O. See :

"Q: How does Marine Formula STA-BIL handle water?
A: Ethanol blended fuels can naturally hold up to 4 tbsp of water per gallon (about 0.5%) before phase separation occurs. Marine Formula STA-BIL® contains a chemical that will absorb an additional fraction of a percent of water above this amount (around 0.2%), by bonding with the water molecules, allowing this additional amount to pass safely through the engine and out through the tailpipe. Any amount above this will drop to the bottom and phase separate. Removing large amounts of water (more than 0.75%) through bonding will cause poor power/acceleration and sometimes cause the engine to quit. Additionally, it can cause catastrophic engine damage. No engine manufacturer recommends removal of these large amounts of water through bonding."

If the problem with PA6 tanks is not ethanol itself but H20, if the H20 is inerted, I gather the plastic could not then absorb it.

I guess I'll see eventually as I can't always find pure gas on the road. I currently have 15 Gals. of 93 stabilized pure gas in the garage though. If I ever need a tank, I'll just get my pal in Göttingen to send me a PEX tank via DHL and be done with it. I'm sure Donnie will cover the labor.

William

[ducatiz]

ducatiz

No chemist here for sure. FAQ says it "bonds" which I take to mean "effectively inerts" H2O. See :

"Q: How does Marine Formula STA-BIL handle water?
A: Ethanol blended fuels can naturally hold up to 4 tbsp of water per gallon (about 0.5%) before phase separation occurs. Marine Formula STA-BIL® contains a chemical that will absorb an additional fraction of a percent of water above this amount (around 0.2%), by bonding with the water molecules, allowing this additional amount to pass safely through the engine and out through the tailpipe. Any amount above this will drop to the bottom and phase separate. Removing large amounts of water (more than 0.75%) through bonding will cause poor power/acceleration and sometimes cause the engine to quit. Additionally, it can cause catastrophic engine damage. No engine manufacturer recommends removal of these large amounts of water through bonding."

what that's describing is simply a function of the naphtha, which does absorb some water.

check this out: http://www.fuel-testers.com/is_gas_additive_safe_with_e10_list.html

If the problem with PA6 tanks is not ethanol itself but H20, if the H20 is inerted, I gather the plastic could not then absorb it.

I guess I'll see eventually as I can't always find pure gas on the road. I currently have 15 Gals. of 93 stabilized pure gas in the garage though. If I ever need a tank, I'll just get my pal in Göttingen to send me a PEX tank via DHL and be done with it. I'm sure Donnie will cover the labor.

William

i don't know if i trust relying on an additive to take care of the water in the tank..  coat the tank.  be done with it.

[Howie]

http://mystarbrite.com/startron/images/stories/catalog/93008-msds-10-7-06.pdf

Since  ah, ducatiz beat me to it

[Scissors]

4-7 lbs up top? I'd call that significant for "up top" weight.    .... "stranded or killed"  ...... reductio ad absurdum.

So if 4-7 pounds up top is significant, then I guess there must be a huge number of japanese sportbikes and various sport-tourers with severe problems, seeing as they're carrying far more than that in additional weight up top.   

I don't know, I've heard some of the tanks leak at the pump flange.

Mine did.  There was a steady drip of fuel onto the rear exhaust header.  Had to take it in twice for that problem.

As confirmed by the dealership, it was due to tank expansion.

[Scissors]

No experience with Startron but Sta-Bil and Sta-Bil Marine claim to remove water. You have data which refutes this? Sta-Bil has been at this for 75 years and has wide manufacturer approval.

Quite simply, they're lying if they claim it removes water.

[Scissors]

ducatiz

No chemist here for sure. FAQ says it "bonds" which I take to mean "effectively inerts" H2O. See :

"Q: How does Marine Formula STA-BIL handle water?
A: Ethanol blended fuels can naturally hold up to 4 tbsp of water per gallon (about 0.5%) before phase separation occurs. Marine Formula STA-BIL® contains a chemical that will absorb an additional fraction of a percent of water above this amount (around 0.2%), by bonding with the water molecules, allowing this additional amount to pass safely through the engine and out through the tailpipe. Any amount above this will drop to the bottom and phase separate. Removing large amounts of water (more than 0.75%) through bonding will cause poor power/acceleration and sometimes cause the engine to quit. Additionally, it can cause catastrophic engine damage. No engine manufacturer recommends removal of these large amounts of water through bonding."

If the problem with PA6 tanks is not ethanol itself but H20, if the H20 is inerted, I gather the plastic could not then absorb it.

I guess I'll see eventually as I can't always find pure gas on the road. I currently have 15 Gals. of 93 stabilized pure gas in the garage though. If I ever need a tank, I'll just get my pal in Göttingen to send me a PEX tank via DHL and be done with it. I'm sure Donnie will cover the labor.

William

As Ducatiz pointed out, the naphtha absorbs water.  So does the gasoline.  So does the ethanol.  None of them chemically bond to the water molecules (which would create a new chemical), therefore none of them prevent the plastic from absorbing said water, even before phase separation occurs.

If allowing more water to be absorbed prior to phase separation were to help, then ethanol would actually help to prevent the problem, seeing as that's what it does.

This part makes me laugh:
"Marine Formula STA-BIL® contains a chemical that will absorb an additional fraction of a percent of water above this amount (around 0.2%), by bonding with the water molecules, allowing this additional amount to pass safely through the engine and out through the tailpipe."

Except for the part about bonding with the water molecules, that's exactly what ethanol does.  It allows the gasoline to absorb additional water prior to phase separation, and then it passes safely through the engine and out through the tailpipe, just as water does in pure gasoline.

[TAftonomos]

Just did mine with the Caswell stuff.  I was planning on splitting it up, half for the monster and half for the SS.

I used the entire thing for the monster alone.  Glad I did....very little resin moving around in there.

72 deg out
Caswell stuff in the house last few days ~72
Tank was clean/dry with hot soapy water

Spent about 5 mins mixing it up, poured it in. 
I made a plexiglass cover for the pump.....glad I did this too as it let me see into the tank and get a eye on what was going on in there.

Turned tank over to drain after about 15-20 mins of twisting it around (slowly from front/back etc) and NONE came out.

Sitting in the sun now.  I'll let it cure for 2 days as it is kinda cold at night here (~45).  The directions say to
"place it in a warm spot 70-90 deg and let cure for 24-36 hours".....this place doesn't exist at the moment.  Not sure how long I should wait until I reinstall the pump/cap and fill her up.

[TAftonomos]

- Ran rigged up a heat gun I have for model A/C stuff to blow through the tank.  After about 2 hours the thing was hot to the touch, and the epoxy cured rock hard.  Tomorrow I will reinstall the pump, and the cap.  Hooray, 10 weeks after dropping the bike off I'll finally have it back, tank coated, and back on the road.  Just in time for winter  

not going to happen again ducati....

[David Lowenstein]

I'd like to give a shout-out to Corey for posting this information, which proved very valuable to me.  As I indicated in a previous post, my local dealer was not willing to do the coating or to give me the replacement tank to coat myself (in advance of installing and filling it with fuel), so I needed to find an established third-party vendor to whom the new tank could be shipped for coating.  Per the recommendation below, I called Lee Korczynski, Service Manager at European Motorcycles of Pittsburgh (724-934-4269).  Lee was great to work with - he gave me a firm fixed price over the phone for the coating (pretty much the same price as Corey indicated).  I had my dealer ship the tank to Lee, and total turnaround time door-to-door was less than a week.  Yesterday I rode out to my dealer, inspected the newly coated tank, waited while they installed it, and rode home.

Hopefully this will be the end of my swollen tank worries 

I can highly recommend European Motorcycles of Pittsburgh for getting the coating done, for anyone who can't or doesn't want to do it themselves.

Dave

...
After all the smoothness, I'm willing to reveal that the guys at European Motorcycles in Wexford, PA (just outside of Pittsburgh) treated me great through the whole thing. Lee, the service manager, is great to work with and doesn't give you any run-around BS. If you're in the area and are experiencing issues, I suggest you give them a visit.