with apologies to any philly fans...

[GAAN]

I would guess in Vick's case

the animal abuse was not a precurser to eventual human violence as it was about fostering an image

His actions were primative Alpha male games that bought him respect from his peers

as far as the man himself is concerned

no one will know how he really felt about the whole thing

for all any of us knows he may very well love dogs as much as the rest of us

and

felt horrible the entire time and felt trapped by his self imposed role in his chosen lifestyle/clique

or

He is a make the beast with two backsing psycho who will murder and rape children in 3 to 5 years

Only time will answer that question

but

bob  I think has the right of it

very few of us here has a clean enough closet to go judging anyone about anything

:-/

[cyrus buelton]

^

I don't like you; That made way too much sense and I agree.

[Triple J]

I maintain they're the same thing. It was not an accident. It was an intentional act. Running a gambling/dog fighting ring is also an exceedingly poor choice. You saying when you're drunk you're unaware of what you're doing? I think not.

Sorry, I think you're wrong.

Driving drunk was a choice. He didn't leave say, or think, I am going to kill someone on my way home tonight. That part was an accident. No, you are not unaware of what you're doing when you're drunk...but being aware doesn't mean you intentionally kill someone. It was an accident, made more likely to happen by the poor choice in deciding to drive drunk...but still an accident.

Vick intentionally tortured and killed dogs. He participated in the actual act.

Again, I'm not defending drunk driving...it is horrible as can be the consequences. There is a difference between the pre-meditation of these acts though.

[Statler]

none of my dogs, my family's dogs, or my friends' dogs have ever been in anyone's dogfights.

I've had several people very close to me killed by drunk drivers.

My personal beliefs on the culpability of the two actions are certainly skewed in the direction not reflected here.

[cyrus buelton]

I just find it odd that Vick gets filleted and Stallworth is pretty much out of the picture


killing dogs vs killing a human

pre-meditated, accident, I don't care. I am not a judge or a lawyer.


it seems that dogs are valued more than a human life and that is sad.

(note: not defending what Vick did, I've made my thoughts clear)

[Kopfjäger]

"Organized dogfighting is now a felony in all 50 states, according to the HSUS. But an estimated 40,000 people, HSUS officials said, still follow the barbaric dogfighting circuits across the U.S.--and an additional 100,000 meet on neighborhood streets, alleys and hideaways."


http://www.zimbio.com/Michael+Vick/articles/4YuCGjOEnXi/More+Charges+Filed+Pit+Bulls+Rescued+Dogfighting

[NAKID]

I maintain they're the same thing. It was not an accident. It was an intentional act. Running a gambling/dog fighting ring is also an exceedingly poor choice. You saying when you're drunk you're unaware of what you're doing? I think not.

Sorry, I think you're wrong.

Driving drunk was a choice. He didn't leave say, or think, I am going to kill someone on my way home tonight. That part was an accident.

You committed a crime while committing another crime. It would be no different had the guy robbed a bank and hit and killed someone while running from the police...

[hihhs]

I have to admit that when I started this thread, I had never heard of Stallworth. I've since read some articles.

It was not my intent to compare the two cases. The only commonality I find is the link to pro football, which seems frankly unrelated. I would not compare manslaughter (which is just a euphemism for killing someone) to abuse and cruelty to animals (which in Vick's case is a huge understatement)

According to the Washington Post, Stallworth served 24 days for killing someone while driving drunk...I find this completely baffling.

My stance when starting this thread was this, and this alone;
In my opinion, Michael Vick should not have been allowed to return to professional sports. 

[Langanobob]

none of my dogs, my family's dogs, or my friends' dogs have ever been in anyone's dogfights.

I've had several people very close to me killed by drunk drivers.

My personal beliefs on the culpability of the two actions are certainly skewed in the direction not reflected here.

Completely understood.  I don't think many of us have escaped the effects of drunk drivers.  

[Langanobob]

I've never once driven on drugs or with liquor in me. It's not hard.

Commendable and I'm pretty sure you are very much in the minority.  Again, this is a cultural thing    When I was a kid by the time we were 14 we were making relatively big contributions to the local Coors distributor's profits.  We'd hang out near a liquor store until we found a homeless guy who'd buy beer for us in exchange for keeping the change.  And we didn't slow down our drinking when we reached 16 and started driving.  There was no peer pressure or other outside influences not to drink (or other substance)  and drive and plenty of it in the other direction.   It would have indeed been hard not to drink and drive.   Not saying it was OK, and not saying we weren't morons,  just saying that's how it was.   Luck has some role in it that I never ran anyone over.   Again, not saying it's OK to drink and drive and today I will not even drive with a hangover or even think about getting on a bike with any alcohol at all in my system.

In other news, yes, the crimes were different, but no, neither one was an accident. The common thread was that they were both make the beast with two backsing morons.

Agreed.  They were morons. 

[Langanobob]

In my opinion, Michael Vick should not have been allowed to return to professional sports. 

As far as I'm concerned if anyone shouldn't be allowed to return to professional football, it's TO.  But seriously, some of my best friends are dogs and it's kind of surprising to me that I don't necessarily agree with you.  Of course, Vick may be acting but I think his behavior since he was released from prison has been OK.  If he was acting like an arrogant unrepentant asshole, then I'd agree.

And also, even though nowhere in the Constitution does it say we get second chances, I think it's somehow an important tenet of our society that second chances can be earned.  Time will tell on this and he hasn't earned anything yet, but the initial reports I read from training camp are that he's doing very well.

[GAAN]

As far as I'm concerned if anyone shouldn't be allowed to return to professional football, it's TO.

I admit I don't follow professional sports

but

I just read TO's wiki and unless he did something this year that isn't accounted for

TO has done nothing that even comes close to Vick or Stallworth

He's an arrogant prick but that's about it

[cyrus buelton]

I admit I don't follow professional sports

but

I just read TO's wiki and unless he did something this year that isn't accounted for

TO has done nothing that even comes close to Vick or Stallworth

He's an arrogant prick but that's about it

You hit that spot on.

He was a prick to the Eagles and they released him. That's it.

Didn't kill anyone or fight a dog.

[Langanobob]

I admit I don't follow professional sports

but

I just read TO's wiki and unless he did something this year that isn't accounted for

TO has done nothing that even comes close to Vick or Stallworth

He's an arrogant prick but that's about it

I wasn't serious about TO.  I was just tryin' to make a joke.  Guess it was a bad one and I didn't put any smilies because I thought it was obvious that I wasn't serious.  Even started the next sentence with "Seriously, ..."   

There.

[Triple J]

According to the Washington Post, Stallworth served 24 days for killing someone while driving drunk...I find this completely baffling.

Agree. There has to be something going on there that we're not hearing about.

I think I read somewhere that the guy he hit was als drink and was jaywalking...i.e. if Stallworth had hit him and not been DUI himself, he may not have even been ticketed.

I don't now that for sure...just saying I *think* I remember something to that effect.

...and to be clear. I haven't been defending Stallworth at all during this, or at least didn't at all intend to if it came across that way.

You committed a crime while committing another crime. It would be no different had the guy robbed a back and hit and killed someone while running from the police...

http://criminal.findlaw.com/crimes/a-z/manslaughter_involuntary.html

This link illustrates my point. Unintentional.

Again, not defending Stallworth at all...just a distinction between the two cases. I never said it wasn't a crime, or he shouldn't be punished.