1000cc in 2012

[Cider]

They were talking about this in F1 and I absolutely agree that having two classes of motor within GP is a really bad idea. The whole ROI becomes blurred at that point because if the povo motors are competitive why are factories spending ridiculous amounts of cash on the prototypes and if they're not competitive why would anyone want to race them in order to trundle around at the back of the grid?

Agreed.  In fact, when I heard this proposal my first thought was that maybe the manufacturers want a more direct tie-in between the prototype race stuff and the production stuff so that they can justify the R&D.  I'm not thinking take a street bike and make a GP bike out of it, I'm thinking the other way--detune a GP bike and sell it as a production bike.

[gm2]

--detune a GP bike and sell it as a production bike.

at least one OEM already did that..  well, limited production anyway.

[Cider]

at least one OEM already did that..  well, limited production anyway.

I thought I heard that part of the argument was that since GP-spec changed to 800cc, they could release the 990cc D16 as a production bike.

[EvilSteve]

That's (almost ) exactly what I've been saying, remove the rule (or enforce a new rule) that would enable/require teams to use pre-production motors. That would mean that there'd be a direct developmental link between GP motors, WSBK motors and street motors. WSBK guys couldn't complain because the motors are pre-production, we'd get a nice trickle down and it'd be cheaper for the factories to develop these motors. Production based motors would then have some hope in hell of being competitive. They would then also remove the number of races on one motor rule because GP would then serve as development for the production motors.

I doubt they'll go for that idea though because this is based on the premise that the reason they're going down this road is to reduce costs and not some other hidden reason that us plebs aren't party to.

Cider - yes, that's correct.

[zooom]

or if they are just repeating mistakes?

I think that for sure....

look at it...the GP grid is not as exciting as it used to be and not as packed full of competition like it used to be when any rider on the grid can win on any raceday...unless it is a rainrace...then all bets are off...so they are pulling at loose strings looking for a cure....this happens to be the currently popular fat one they are grasping at...

[gm2]

i think it's a slightly more logical move than that.  the 800cc formula simply didn't work.  damn near everyone wants to go back to 1K.  that's one issue.

the 2nd issue, ~production motors and cost, is separate.  function of the economy blah blah.. but really just a more deliberate attempt to fix the major problem that there are only 16 bikes on the grid next year.

sure, the 4 (...or 5 ) aliens may still be in one race and the rest in another.  but if The Rest is 20 bikes and they are all scrapping and dicing rather than playing follow the leader, the whole series is a hell of a lot better for it.

[EvilSteve]

i think it's a slightly more logical move than that.  the 800cc formula simply didn't work.  damn near everyone wants to go back to 1K.  that's one issue.

My take: it didn't work for Honda who makes up and who's engines make up a large part of the grid.

the 2nd issue, ~production motors and cost, is separate.  function of the economy blah blah.. but really just a more deliberate attempt to fix the major problem that there are only 16 bikes on the grid next year.

Maybe so but what's the end result going to be?

sure, the 4 (...or 5 ) aliens may still be in one race and the rest in another.  but if The Rest is 20 bikes and they are all scrapping and dicing rather than playing follow the leader, the whole series is a hell of a lot better for it.

We still won't see them because the focus will still be on the front runners, I doubt that will change (who the front runners are, how far ahead they are or that they're the only ones on camera 95% of the time).

[gm2]

the people who win are still going to be the people who win.  but maybe the gresinis etc of the world will start seeing the podium again.  regardless, if the racing gets better in the B group it's going to be better for the series as a whole.  both in terms of [the limited] tv coverage they get and the path from a satellite bike to a factory bike.

[EvilSteve]

I think if Honda didn't suck so much we wouldn't be complaining about this.

[Jester]

sure, the 4 (...or 5 ) aliens may still be in one race and the rest in another.  but if The Rest is 20 bikes and they are all scrapping and dicing rather than playing follow the leader, the whole series is a hell of a lot better for it.

In that vein, it would be more like wsbk.  The front runners in wsbk gap the field by quite a bit by race end, and really there are only 5-6 guys that can consistantly challenge up front in that series.  Its just that there are lots of scraps going on behind them that can be worth watching.  MotoGP could use the same scenario as gm2 says.  We just need more bikes filling out the rest of the field.

Haga/Spies/Fabri/Biaggi/Rea etc run off into the distance most of the time, just as Rossi/Stoner/Yorgie/Pedro do the same.

[mitt]

I thought I heard that part of the argument was that since GP-spec changed to 800cc, they could release the 990cc D16 as a production bike.

Ducati announced a 4 cylinder 1000cc bike at misano during world ducati week in 2004 and showed a prototype of the engine (I was there  ).  I am pretty sure, but not 100% certain, that was before the talk of GP 800's happened.

mitt

[gm2]

In that vein, it would be more like wsbk.  The front runners in wsbk gap the field by quite a bit by race end, and really there are only 5-6 guys that can consistantly challenge up front in that series.  Its just that there are lots of scraps going on behind them that can be worth watching.  MotoGP could use the same scenario as gm2 says.  We just need more bikes filling out the rest of the field.

Haga/Spies/Fabri/Biaggi/Rea etc run off into the distance most of the time, just as Rossi/Stoner/Yorgie/Pedro do the same.

yep.  but at least in wsbk you get certain riders at certain tracks that seem to have the place dialed; checa @ miller (well, before ben came along), biaggi @ brno, haslam @ donington and other random places, smrz here and there, shakey @ portimao, etc.  even if the top 5 guys are almost always involved it's not always ONLY those guys.

either way, dorna and fim both know they need a deeper field, more racing than just for the podium, and a much bigger pipeline of riders.  i don't think that anyone can argue that wsbk has been a LOT more exciting* to watch since 2007.

 
*save laguna '08 and catalunya '09, of course. 

[OT]

I don't know--are WSBK times really that far off GP times?  The backmarker argument assumes that you cannot make a competitive bike using some off-the-shelf parts.  I'm not sure if that has been proved.

I really feel that as the pool gets larger, the talent (bikes and riders) will get thinner and the backmarkers will factor into the races.

If I get time I'll try to check lap times at tracks where WSBK/AMA and MotoGP raced about the same period in 2009...maybe I'm all wet.

either way, dorna and fim both know they need a deeper field, more racing than just for the podium, and a much bigger pipeline of riders.  i don't think that anyone can argue that wsbk has been a LOT more exciting* to watch since 2007.

Great point!  Implies (to me) that we're seeing the resulting thinning of the herd (from hard economic times) in MotoGP.  So, getting more teams into MotoGP seem to be only about keeping the series popular, entertaining, and a draw for the fan's money.

In that vein, they ought to take a look at how Nascar is marketed or, even, shut it down for a year (like the ML baseball strike)...the fans all came back in droves....and the Yankees still won the most championships for a - nothing changed.....

[gm2]

here's brno 2009 for comparison.  last place GP qualifier Talmacsi qualified 1.2 seconds ahead of WSBK pole-sitter biaggi.  and GP pole-sitter rossi was 3.8 seconds ahead of biaggi.

http://www.crash.net/motogp/results/151040/1/brno_motogp_-_qualifying_times.html
http://www.crash.net/world+superbikes/results/150231/1/brno_-_qualifying_times_1.html

[OT]

What were the race times?