tougher laws.... or grow kids with thicker skin?

[ducpainter]

It's not about the money. It's about making the best of an imperfect system, and punishing in proportion to the actions involved.
In this case, these kids gave this girl a lot of grief, but they didn't kill her.
Were their actions a contributing factor in her suicide? Almost certainly.
Did any of them ever entertain the possibility that their actions would have that impact? Almost certainly not.
Did any of them hand her a gun or rope and say "Here, go kill yourself."
No.
Did the parents take any action to stop the harassment? i.e. change schools, contact the administrators, the other kids parents, etc.?
Unknown.
IMO punitive action in this case should be handled in civil litigation, not to gain compensation but to punish those involved in a manner appropriate to their involvement.

The imperfect system we agree on.

I, personally, don't think civil courts with the only remedy available being monetary compensation is the right place either.

...and unfortunately that is about as far as i can go given our rules structure.

[Bun-bun]

The imperfect system we agree on.

I, personally, don't think civil courts with the only remedy available being monetary compensation is the right place either.

...and unfortunately that is about as far as i can go given our rules structure.

I personally think that our forefathers had it right. Put a set of stocks outside the courthouse/town hall, and let people throw rotten veg at the offenders for a few days.

[Grampa]

question.... has having made money the great equalizer in all things that should be fair worked out all that well for us?

If the school system spent less money making things monetarily fair for the family of a child bullied, maybe it would have more money to spend on playground conflict resolution training for it's staff.


A few weeks ago, a 16 year old kid goes into a walmart, pics up the intercom and announces that all black people please leave the store. A harmless stupid 16 year old prank. Walmart is now providing counseling for those customers deeply hurt by this great injustice, and expects to also have to pay lot's -o- cash out as restitution.  Deep pockets have been emptied for years as a fix and are we as a people any more tolerant, informed or just..... nope, we're still just as stoopid and just as offended. And I..... the one not offended by this 16 year old prank (and not because I'm white), have to pay $3.95 for a Maisto 1/18 scale Ducati 848 when it was just 2.95 last year. That's not fair.

Fair is having the black customers hit the kid who made the announcement with a tubesock with an orange in it. See if he does that again.

[Raux]

question really is this.

how would you feel if your kid killed themselves because of bullying?

would you really say "well its just normal, my kid should have had a thicker skin and dealt with it, and Its my fault for not teachign them that and I want nothing done to the kids that were hazing my dead kid because well that is just normal growing up."

I call bull$hit, i highly doubt anyone would go so easy if your own kid was DEAD.  You would be calling for the heads of the kids you thought pushed your kid to death.

personally i would go after the school for allowing it to happen on their campus. but i also would have been involved a lot sooner. checking with your kids about bullying should be a normal part of your day. 'hey, how was school today... what's that some kids were bullying you. well, let's see what i can do to help.'

[cyrus buelton]

I believe it was touched on a tiny bit in the article.  I think that the argument is that there is no consensual sex with a minor because they aren't old enough to consent.   

The whole 17 year old with a 15 year old is really tough.  It doesn't seem like a huge deal, but now that dude is going to be a "sex offender" the rest of his life. 

In Indiana, you can be charged with consensual sex with a minor; a guy from my high school got tagged with it when he was a senior (18) and was dating a freshman (15). I guess her parents got pissed off and filed charges.


I am there with you on the age deal. High Schoolers are going to date high schoolers. Hell, in my HS, it was an accomplishment if you dated one of the hot freshman.

[ducpainter]

question.... has having made money the great equalizer in all things that should be fair worked out all that well for us?

<snip>
Fair is having the black customers hit the kid who made the announcement with a tubesock with an orange in it. See if he does that again.

No...

here's the rub...

the girl is dead...what is fair for her family?

If we go far enough back there is the eye for an eye premise, but we've 'evolved' so much farther than that.

Making these kids murderers doesn't seem to work for some..."they're just kids". [I call bullshit on that. That is one of the reasons we have no personal responsibility in our society. There are no penalties.]

and money doesn't fix anything.

[Oldfisti]

No...

here's the rub...

the girl is dead...what is fair for her family?

If we go far enough back there is the eye for an eye premise, but we've 'evolved' so much farther than that.

Making these kids murderers doesn't seem to work for some..."they're just kids". [I call bullshit on that. That is one of the reasons we have no personal responsibility in our society. There are no penalties.]

and money doesn't fix anything.

The girl is dead... but she killed herself.


Suicide isn't fair for anybody. Fact remains that even tho she was bullied no-one forced her to check out. That was purely her decision.


(not saying that there shouldn't be repercussions for the bullying)

[Raux]

there simply needs to be a law put into the books for 'bullying' and actually... i think it's called terrorizing. it should be a misdameanor (sp?) and for minors goes on their juvenile records. if it's a pattern, then it's moved up to a felony or classified as a felony if it leads to a death (but not from suicide). Suicide is suicide... sorry plain and simple. A person that takes their own life. No one else is responsible for that action. Now, can a person be brought up on charges of terrorizing after a suicide makes those things come to light... sure. but it's not a felony unless those people actually took part in the death.

[cyrus buelton]

Making these kids murderers doesn't seem to work for some..."they're just kids". [I call bullshit on that. That is one of the reasons we have no personal responsibility in our society. There are no penalties.]

I know we disagree on anything medical.

But there are several studies that say the human brain really doesn't fully mature until we are in are early 20's.


Someone quote me if I am wrong, but I think that is pretty accurate in what I read.

[ducpainter]

I know we disagree on anything medical.

But there are several studies that say the human brain really doesn't fully mature until we are in are early 20's.


Someone quote me if I am wrong, but I think that is pretty accurate in what I read.

That may very well be true.

So because the brain isn't fully developed there should be no consequences for actions?

The question is not that though.

The question is what penalty is appropriate, if any, for these actions?

[Grampa]

snip

If we go far enough back there is the eye for an eye premise, but we've 'evolved' so much farther than that.

that not an eye for an eye.... that's make'n orange juice

Some would say we've evolved, some would say we've de-evolved. In a world where we pat ourselves on the back and say we've removed failure and made things fair for our children... the end result has been kids who cave in because they've never known failure. They don't grasp the concept of consequences, because mom and dad reasoned with them for 2 hours at Kmart when they pitched a fit.

I have two great young boys as step kids. My wife babied them. Lots. She had the time to. When I was a kid, my mom didn't have the time. I had to figure lots of things out on my own. That was a curse as well as a blessing. The other day.... we had a wet, naked 10 year old standing in the hallway yelling for his mom to get him a towel. He happened to be standing right next to the cabinet where he knows the towels to be kept. Some would say Michelle is /was the product of evolved better parenting. She listened, she coddled, babied, she never spanked, she made things fair.... and  then, some would say she's now dealing with kids who have a difficult time figuring out lifes lil and big puzzles on their own. Some of todays parents will tell you my mom was a bad parent for not putting 210% of her energy into my upbringing... but at least I knew where the towels were and how to wash them.  Evolution  or De-evolution... thats a tough one.

[Statler]

kids committed suicide back then too.    It's not a new issue.

[Grampa]

I know we disagree on anything medical.

But there are several studies that say the human brain really doesn't fully mature until we are in are early 20's.


Someone quote me if I am wrong, but I think that is pretty accurate in what I read.

from what I've read it's about 18 to 20.

but..... the real growth happen from 0 - 4   ya know, that time in which todays parents are teaching kids about fair and easy.

[Speedbag]

....and I take yet one more step toward giving up on society altogether....

((I agree wholeheartedly with all your posts on this topic bp))

[Grampa]

kids committed suicide back then too.    It's not a new issue.

thats why I think (I could be wrong), that there always have been and always will be problems like this and making the penalties stiffer for being a bully, just makes for tougher bullies. I kind'a think the focus needs to be on making kids with tougher hides, and IMO, that means allowing kids to fail more often than they do these days.