696/1100 Exhaust Question

[slower than...]

Saw the new Monster 796 yesterday.  I absolutely love it.  I talked to the mechanic about the exhaust. 

On my Sport Classic, going with the Termi slip-ons/Race ECU completely changed the tune and performance of the engine, and it got rid of the 02 sensor.  Unless the O2 was bypassed, it was hard to get the bike to idle smoothly, or to avoid the surge at around 3500 RPM.

However, the mechanic said that does not work on the new Monsters.  The slip-ons/Race ECU only lets the bike run a little richer in the 3000 RPM and above range, and does nothing to keep it from running lean at idle.  He said the O2 stays a big part of the system, and in fact, there is one for each cylinder.  The mechanic said in order to get the bike to idle and run at top performance at the full RPM range, you would need the full race system, not just the slip-ons/Race ECU.  BTW, he was not just trying to sell me a more expensive system.

Does anyone have the full race exhaust (header and pipes plus the CF Termis and Race ECU) on their 696 or 1100?  If so, how expensive was the package?  And are you happy with the performance?

[Raux]

Ungehaur has the full system. he's the only one I know of.

[rosstermyer]

the full system still uses the O2 sensors.  im pretty sure hes blowing smoke up your arse.

[mattc7]

The full is the best of the options due to the lack of flapper, pipe-routing allowing for more topend, ecu allowing the best (not great but better than other options) tune.

I've ridden the bike stock, with slips and with full systems.  The stock is terrible, especially down low. The slips are better, but not great.  The full is good but not amazing.

The full is noticeably stronger throughout, but more importantly it is the best running of the systems.

The 02 sensors are still culprits.

There is no full system for 696.  Arrow also just brought out a header  for the 1100... I'm curious to see how that works into the mix.  ECU + arrow header + arrow slips <$ than termi full. (sadly the arrow maintains the stock exhaust routing, which I personally cannot stand)

[Amlethae]

I looked at the full system for the 1100 and decided against it.  Essentially 1-1.5k USD more for the "race" headers and I just can't imagine it's worth that kind of cost difference.  IFF what he says is true, then don't let it sit at idle for an hour, and keep the rev's above 3k and you're peachy... trust me you'll have more fun that way too  

EDIT:  To get a good idea on accessories pricing hit up Commoto http://www.store.commoto.com/-c-239.html  That's for the accessories for 696/1100 [796 too for the most part].  The Termi pricing should be around the same for you as the 1100 options.

[mattc7]

then don't let it sit at idle for an hour, and keep the rev's above 3k and you're peachy... trust me you'll have more fun that way too  

Just to keep my point across alittle more. I don't have on hand, but if you get a dyno chart of the 3, even from different dynos (not comparing the numbers, just the graphs), look at the M1100s torque curve under 3500 rpm.  HUGE dips due to being tuned stupid lean.  The problem is you can't move the mixture screws to get rid of that without causing it to run alittle rich (and bog later) because of this.

The slipons don't remove the flapper, which is part of the problem below 3500 rpm, so you can't really make it better.

The full gets rid of the flapper, and is tuned to have much more even performance across (ie, the bike is less lean off idle to 3500, so you can get better mixture screw numbers, that have less detriment on the top end).

Either way it's not perfect.  These systems are still young, and I bet that within 6-12 months, there will be multiple ecu remapping options.

[Amlethae]

Just to keep my point across alittle more. I don't have on hand, but if you get a dyno chart of the 3, even from different dynos (not comparing the numbers, just the graphs), look at the M1100s torque curve under 3500 rpm.  HUGE dips due to being tuned stupid lean.  

What you're saying has complete merrit but I wanted to throw this up into the discussion.  

Here's a somewhat irrelevant dyno graph of the Arrow system for the 1100 (that I've been looking into getting the headers of):


The blue line is stock (and I'm assuming it's the stock ECU for all of these, but I could be wrong).  There's a dip on stock, huge?  Seems to be gone with just the Arrow slip ons (again: if we believe this is the stock ECU still).  And the flapper-less headers just seem to give a tad bit more throughout but the dip is gone regardless.

EDIT:  I think this actually is running the DP ECU given the rev range is going to 8500.

[mattc7]

that's a HP chart.  look at the torque



this is off a dyno run at ducati seattle, comparing the M1100 to it's hyper and multi motor cousins.

Notice how the siemens ecu a huge dip, where the others are all holding better numbers below 5krpm.  These are all stock bikes

The slipons boost that curve up across the board, gets rid of that dip
The full, will get rid of that dip, raise it higher across the board, and pull higher toward the redline, with better fueling up top. The torque falls off pretty early on the slipon, because the tune is so hard to make right at both low and high rpm with only mixture adjustments.


Whether it's worth the price difference or not, that's not my call for every individual's wallet and needs.

The slipon vs stock is a huge improvement.  I don't think there's evidence to show that there is an equal improvement with the full (which is almost double the price).  

http://www.ducati.ms/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=70856&d=1277211314

by the way, the hyper and multi both have the old style ECU, where a DP ecu nets you the ability to tune alittle better. They gain very very nicely from pipes as well, which give the much more competitive curves throughout (although the M1100 is still the king of the DS1100)

If you decide to workup your engine more later, the benefits of the piping diameter, and the routing will come out more with the full system. By this I mean, increasing intake/valve diameter/port+polish/cams, will all benefit from having the larger diameter pipe. The bike will also be much more friendly and rideable throughout the entire 8500rpm range, whereas the stock is horrid down low and just ok up high, the slipon tends to run out of juice up high, the full will take care of both of those problems alittle better

[Amlethae]

Ah this is interesting stuff.  The Arrow headers alone are about $550 on ebay... they have the same shape to them that the stock *96/1100 have but they do get rid of the flapper and I think they might be a 2 pipe system the whole way (not necessarily a good thing) but for 1/3rd the cost of the DP headers it might be a worthwhile option to get the same kind of numbers for. 

I don't know but does DP sell a differently mapped ECU for the full system vs. the slip-ons or is it the same?

[Raux]

if everything is the same as the stock system then a 696 midpipe would serve the same purpose

[mattc7]

I know there's a device to replace the flapper when using slipons. It may provide many of the functional performance gains of the full system, however I don't have first hand knowledge of it.

The ECU is different slipon to full, because of this flapper. If you remove the flapper without the Duc.EE (electrical device made by motocreations that stops CEL from arriving if you disconnect the flapper), then there could be some improvements that close the gap, but this I don't know for sure.

Call Arrow in Vegas if you are interested in their header.  They're top-notch as a company (definitely higher quality than termi imo product wise --with much better support)

If it's a distinct 2-2 system, that could be intriguing, but I'ld guess that they have a join high up the pipes.  The guys at arrow will have all the details.

The last point to the full, which is not power/rideability related is weight. Slips lose about 7lbs.  Full loses about double that compared to stock (from what i've heard, I did not weigh the units)

14ish pounds, is nothing to scoff at.

once again, whether these are worth $2900 vs. $1600 (or whatever they are), I don't know.  The ecu itself is $1300 (either have the same MSRP, different part number), so think you're only paying 1600 for the full, or 300 for the slipons.

OR, Arrow Slips + Arrow Header + ECU
      $950         +    $550         +  $1300 = $2800

In this situation the termis become one hell of a deal, including that high flow filter and filter cover for $100! :-)

I'ld say Raux has a good point comparing the arrow header to the 696 midpipe.  There is most likely very little difference between the two (except the arrow is most likely sexier).  Give arrow a call to confirm that though.

I personally wouldn't be interested in a 2-2.  I bet the arrow connects right before the slipon though.  A poorly tuned 2-2 exhaust can destroy performance. 2-1-2 provide much better ease of use, alittle cylinder scavenging, and usually always better performance throughout.

[ungeheuer]

the full system still uses the O2 sensors.

+1

The slipon vs stock is a huge improvement.  I don't think there's evidence to show that there is an equal improvement with the full (which is almost double the price). 

My seat of the pants experience seems to indicate the opposite.  I didnt notice that much of a performance improvement from stock cans/ECU to slip-on Termis with "racing" ECU.  Sure it looks better and sounds much better and has gotta be somewhat performance enhancing.  Just saying that I didnt find it significant.  Switching from slip-on Termi to Termi Full System.... I was expecting a similarly unspectacular, slight incremental improvement. However I've been surprised that the midrange is noticeably stronger and (I'm running 14t front sprocket and stock rear) I've begun to find myself looking for a (nonexistent) 7th gear.... which has gotta be telling me something.... 

I don't know but does DP sell a differently mapped ECU for the full system vs. the slip-ons or is it the same?

They are different. As mentioned slipon "racing" ECU still needs to hear how the flapper-gate is feeling, whereas full "racing evo" ECU seeks no input for obvious reasons.  I expect (but dunno for sure) that the mapping is also a little different to take advantage of the more free flowing exhaust.

... Raux has a good point comparing the arrow header to the 696 midpipe.... (except the arrow is most likely sexier). 

+1

[mattc7]

i've never touched the slipons outside of city riding....and all that matters there is 0-4000 rpm, which is where the stock vs slipon comparison is a HUGE difference

Actually riding / track, i've been all 100% full system, and I don't think I'ld go any other way

[Amlethae]

ungeheuer: did you notice a performance difference with the termi slip-ons and switching to the 696 midpipe?  Or nothing really different performance wise until you went full system?

[ungeheuer]

i've never touched the slipons outside of city riding....

hahaha.... my experience is exactly the opposite.  I almost never ride in city driving, I'm almost always out on the open road  [moto].

ungeheuer: did you notice a performance difference with the termi slip-ons and switching to the 696 midpipe?

As mentioned, from stock to Termi slipons I noticed only minor performance improvement.  With the addition of 696 midpipe I noticed zero extra in performance (and wasnt expecting any more either), for me the 696 midpipe was the opportunity to dump the excess flappergate baggage and offer the possibility of ceramic coating to reduce under-seat heat.  Although maybe I'm just not very perceptive