PCV/Autotune/wide band O2 sensor location questions...

[loopsrider]

So after searching rather unsuccessfully for PCV maps I have bitten the bullet and am ordering up the Autotune for the PCV that I have installed in my 2010 M696...

Curious as to the wideband O2 sensor arrangement that comes with the autotune and have a couple questions to throw out in cyberspace...

From what I understand (and have read on other forums) you remove one of the stock O2 sensors and install the Autotune wide band O2 sensor in it's location?? Would not installing the Autotune sensor in one of the stock locations simply monitor the Air/Fuel ratio of one cylinder and ignore the A/F ration of the other cylinder?? Doesn't seem right to me....


..... or would you leave the stock O2 sensors alone and weld the provided bung into the exhaust stream??


A cut and paste from the Dynojet Autotune installation instructions...kinda vague???

• Many stock and aftermarket exhausts come equipped with an O2 sensor. If your system uses a M18x1.5mm thread then you can simply use this location for the Auto tune sensor. If you have to drill a hole for a new bung (mild steel bung included), we recommend doing so before the catalytic converter (if applicable). Positioning the weld bung in a location where multiple cylinders collect is the preferred location. If your application has a “2-into-2”design, it's recommended to position the weld bung /sensor approximately 6” from the exhaust port on the respective cylinder you wish to tune.

• Mount the weld boss in a manner that reduces the risk of moisture contamination on the sensor. Condensation can build up in the exhaust pipes and potentially damage the sensor. Ideally, you should orient the weld boss so the sensor is between the 9 o'clock and 3 o'clock position. A 10° inclination off the horizontal plane should be considered a minimum.




I'm thinking since the PCV system for the 696 uses sensor manipulators on the stock O2 sensors it would make sense to install the Autotune sensor at the "Y" junction after the stock O2 sensors, but before the catalytic convertors...

opinions???

[desmoworks]

You need to disable the stock O2 sensors first and then use the PCV O2 sensors in their place. If you retain the stock O2 sensors and have the bike run in closed loop mode it won't matter if you run a PCV or not for the closed loop portion because the ECU will continue to override the PCV. You'll only be able to change the mapping in the open loop areas (above 20% throttle and about 4500rpm).

If you just plug the PCV in without disabling the stock O2 sensors you will get error codes because the ECU will still be looking for the O2 sensors input.

[loopsrider]

OK....so I already have the PCV installed. With it you do not disable the stock O2 sensors at all. The kit provides O2 sensor "optimizers" that go inline with the stock harness...that is the basic install of the PCV on the 696.

What you are saying is that I basically unplug the stock O2 sensors, throw the PCV optimizers in the trash, and install the single wide band O2 sensor provided in the kit in the exhaust stream? I guess that would make sense...seems like you almost dumb down the system...  My concern would be the stock ECU would be looking for stock O2 sensor input and crosscounts and would flag a SES light....would it not??

If it is as you say, and eliminate the stock O2 sensors somehow without flagging an SES light from the ECU, it would seem to be more benifitial to install the single wide band O2 sensor provided in the kit at the "Y" pipe of the two cylinders so it would monitor both...I'm assuming....

[desmoworks]

OK....so I already have the PCV installed. With it you do not disable the stock O2 sensors at all. The kit provides O2 sensor "optimizers" that go inline with the stock harness...that is the basic install of the PCV on the 696.

What you are saying is that I basically unplug the stock O2 sensors, throw the PCV optimizers in the trash, and install the single wide band O2 sensor provided in the kit in the exhaust stream? I guess that would make sense...seems like you almost dumb down the system...  My concern would be the stock ECU would be looking for stock O2 sensor input and crosscounts and would flag a SES light....would it not??

If it is as you say, and eliminate the stock O2 sensors somehow without flagging an SES light from the ECU, it would seem to be more benifitial to install the single wide band O2 sensor provided in the kit at the "Y" pipe of the two cylinders so it would monitor both...I'm assuming....

I'm saying you need to have the stock ECU reflashed so it is not looking for an O2 sensor. Then you can fully utilize the PCV with auto tune. If not you will only be tuning the open loop area (which is not where the worst running problems are).

The optimizers do not allow you to tune the closed loop area... they are simply a "patch" for what PC has not been able to achieve - full open loop mode for proper tuning.

[loopsrider]

Interesting....

I'm not too worried about 20% or lower throttle...the optimizers have completely taken care of the surging, stalling, and hesitation that I was getting. the closed loop area isn't where I want to make the power.

FWIW... according to Dynojet and the literature in my hand the PCV and Autotune will tune upward of 4500RPM at 20% TPS, and will tune the full tps range from 5500RPM and up (full range of TPS) on the M696... the 4500RPM tune limit seems to be a myth...


That said... and getting back to the original question... does anyone know the O2 configuration for running a PCV and Autotune while keeping a stock ECU? (See post #1 for my long winded question )

[desmoworks]

FWIW... according to Dynojet and the literature in my hand the PCV and Autotune will tune upward of 4500RPM at 20% TPS, and will tune the full tps range from 5500RPM and up (full range of TPS) on the M696... the 4500RPM tune limit seems to be a myth...

Not sure I follow you here. 4500 RPM and up is where you can tune with the PC - which seems to be what you wrote the literature confirms. How does that make the fact you can't tune below 4500RPM a myth? It is definitely not a myth, it is an unquestionable fact!

That said... and getting back to the original question... does anyone know the O2 configuration for running a PCV and Autotune while keeping a stock ECU? (See post #1 for my long winded question )

If you don't mind not being able to tune the closed loop section I would use the auto tune to build a map for each cylinder just as the literature you have suggests. Unplug one of the stock O2 sensors and tune for that cylinder. Then plug it back in and do the other cylinder. You'll get error codes while doing this, but it won't affect what you are doing. Once the map is created you can plug the second OEM O2 sensor back in and get rid of the auto tune system.

[ungeheuer]

Here's my understanding FWIW.....

"Many stock and aftermarket exhausts come equipped with an O2 sensor. If your system uses a M18x1.5mm thread then you can simply use this location for the Auto tune sensor"  I've been thinking about this and it seems to me that the "wideband" 02 sensor(s) which come with the Autotune option for PC5 are intended to replace the stock 02 probes entirely.  So for the Autotune be able to do its stuff for each cylinder independently you would need to replace BOTH of them. Which makes it 2x as expensive. 

But lets think about this some more.....

If you just replace one of them, what you would have in that case is the Autotune monitoring the the state of tune for that one cylinder only, leaving the other one to run whatever map you loaded to your PC5 for that cylinder - so no dynamic monitoring on that cylinder at all. 

I'm not sure that this is even possible, but...... If you left both stock 02 sensors where they are and then also added one single additional "wideband" sensor in a point of mutual exhaust gas collection (the "Y" pipe would be it on a 696) then your Autotune would give you some kind of average tune between the 2 cylinders, which to me is going backwards.  You have both cylinders running a state of tune which was not ideal for either of them.  I'd avoid this option (if it even is one).

And as already mentioned by desmoworks Autotune will only be "autotuning" the open loop area - ie when you crack the throttle open - at cruise in the closed loop area, Autotune or not - your fuelling will be set by the ECU, albeit modified slightly by the use of the optimisers (unless the wideband 02 sensors are modified to no longer need the optimiser in order to be .... optimised that is).

So..... to summarise:  Rather than having 2 idealised fixed maps for each cylinder loaded to your PC5, if you ran Autotune with 2x "wideband" 02 sensors, then the state of tune for each cylinder could be monitored in realtime on the fly and adjusted accordingly. 

How much is 2x Autotune gadgets vs the cost of a proper dynotune for each cylinder?  Bearing in mind that you're only tuning the open loop area anyway??

I'm finding my M1100 is running so much better since its PC5 and 02 trick-boxes went in, so whilst the optimisers may be something of a workaround, they do a pretty good job of it IMO.

[desmoworks]

Well, that brings up the question we should have asked first. Are you wanting to build a map with the auto tune kit (which was my assumption - building a map one cylinder at a time) or have the auto tune permanently installed?

[DucNaked]

Sorry for the threadjack, but who is offering ecu flashes for this computer? Is Protune doing this? I think I've seen one from Rexxer, so these flashed ecu's are alll open loop?

[desmoworks]

Sorry for the threadjack, but who is offering ecu flashes for this computer? Is Protune doing this? I think I've seen one from Rexxer, so these flashed ecu's are alll open loop?

I'm not aware of anyone besides Rexxer. We are the only Rexxer dealer in the US 

[ungeheuer]

If you don't mind not being able to tune the closed loop section I would use the auto tune to build a map for each cylinder just as the literature you have suggests. Unplug one of the stock O2 sensors and tune for that cylinder. Then plug it back in and do the other cylinder. You'll get error codes while doing this, but it won't affect what you are doing. Once the map is created you can plug the second OEM O2 sensor back in and get rid of the auto tune system.

With respect......  I dont see the sense in that.  The whole idea of having the Autotune installed on your bike is to be able to monitor and adjust tuning on the fly in real time.  

You'd be better to forget Autotune altogether and go visit your local Dynojet centre to create maps on a proper Dyno than try to use Autotune as a "one off" dynotune substitute.

[desmoworks]

With respect......  I dont see the sense in that.  The whole idea of having the Autotune installed on your bike is to be able to monitor and adjust tuning on the fly in real time.  

You'd be better to forget Autotune altogether and go visit your local Dynojet centre to create maps on a proper Dyno than try to use Autotune as a "one off" dynotune substitute.

It depends on a lot of things. I know a lot of people that either:

a. Like to do their own work.
b. Don't have a reliable tuner near by.
c. Don't have any tuner near by.

So they use the dynojet auto tune software to build a map themselves.

Once a good map is created there is no need to continually adjust or monitor it. I guess there could be some circumstances where on the fly tuning would make sense such as riding altitudes that vary by thousands of feet or for racers (but racers shouldn't be using PC anyway - there are far superior products out there for race applications - that work on the street too, but are often overkill). Other than that once the map is made there is absolutely no need to keep the auto tune software on the bike - IMO of course!

[loopsrider]

Argh...I have confused everyone...Forget about the stock ECU and it's limitations and let's bring it back to basics...



ungeheuer has brought up some of my concerns...

For the Autotune to be installed and tune (be it temporaily or not) a map properly on a 696 you would need two wideband O2 sensors to be installed in (or near) the stock locations.  That would be the same kit as they have for the Harley Davidsons (p/n AT-100 that is configured for 2 wideband O2 sensors). The 696 p/n is an AT-200 that comes with only 1 wide band O2 sensor...I don't think the AT-200 software would be able to simply add another wide band O2 sensor...

Dynojet has only two part numbers for the Autotune... AT-100 and AT-200...

[ungeheuer]

It depends on a lot of things. I know a lot of people that either:

a. Like to do their own work.
b. Don't have a reliable tuner near by.
c. Don't have any tuner near by.

I agree. 

I myself fall into category a and c.......   and for those reasons the Autotune option does interest me.......  (I still think its possible to use 2x of em and have it work as intended - on the fly - without getting ECU errors.  The ECU ceases to care what the 02 sensor have to say above 4500 anyway right??  And below that the "wideband" sensors would continue to report for duty to the ECU (albeit in some modified "optimised" form)......  thus keeping the ECU content.  "Wideband" is referring to the extended nature of the monitoring when reporting back to PC5 in the open loop area is it not??   

[desmoworks]

The ECU ceases to care what the 02 sensor have to say above 4500 anyway right??

Correct.

And below that the "wideband" sensors would continue to report for duty to the ECU (albeit in some modified "optimised" form)...... 

The stock O2 sensors are narrow band. As I understand it the PC O2 optimizers plug into the harness inline with the OEM O2 sensors. The OEM narrow band O2 sensors are still sampling the exhaust gases per cylinder and reporting back to the ECU, but with a modified voltage due to the PC optimizers.

To use either 1 or 2 wideband sensors from the PC autotune kit you'd have to either remove the stock sensors create a map and then replace them or if you want to keep the autottune kit on all the time you'd have to weld on two addition bungs for the wideband sensors.

This is why I said it is best to disable the stock O2 sensors by reflashing the ECU. You would then only run the two wideband sensors and you could use the original bungs. Having 4 O2 sensors seems crazy to me!

thus keeping the ECU content.  "Wideband" is referring to the extended nature of the monitoring when reporting back to PC5 in the open loop area is it not??   

Correct.