The PCV with Autotune thread......

[ungeheuer]

I'm about to cross check my autotuned AFRs by temporarily disabling Autotune, running with the latest autotuned (but temporarily static) fuel map and temporarily fitting this...



... and its own wideband O2 just to see if what it detects is the same/similar to what autotune is supposed to have setup.  Kinda cross checking the input by measuring the output with a different device.  Just for fun. 

[Speeddog]

OK, that's good.

I'm very curious to see how it compares.

[greenmonster]

+1 on ungeheur, that's what I ment.
Getting a real world check to see where you're at

[DucNaked]

I'm about to cross check my autotuned AFRs by temporarily disabling Autotune, running with the latest autotuned (but temporarily static) fuel map and temporarily fitting this...



... and its own wideband O2 just to see if what it detects is the same/similar to what autotune is supposed to have setup.  Kinda cross checking the input by measuring the output with a different device.  Just for fun. 

You sir have a problem. 

[ungeheuer]

You sir have a problem.  

I already had the AFR gauge to help me tune the TM40 pumper carb on my DR - I'm not very good at "seat-of-the-pants" tuning   .

[Speeddog]

How's that AFR gauge comparing?

 

[graydo]

Guys can I ask a question?

I have the Rexxer unit and the disabled O2 sensors and have finally arrived at the obvious (TO EVERY ONE ELSE EXCEPT MYSELF) conclusion that you do still need the flexibility to perform the final tune on the bike itself... that said i will follow the lead of other pioneers in this thread and fit the PV5 and the Auto tune... my preferred option was to keep the bike as simple as possible and not have the piggy back arrangement.. but without easy access to a Rexxer dyno there seems little options.... sooo....my questions are...
 If I buy the AT 100 (are we still of the opinion it is the preferred unit?)... does it have to stay in the loop or can I just use it as a tuning aid and save the Auto tune corrected file and then remove the AT 100 from the bike? I assume the auto tune can correct the file in the PC5 and save the changes on the go? I have a friend here with 1098 and 1198 that wants to use the Power Commander also and I am wondering if we can share the tool and sensors....
As the O2 sensors are disabled in the Siemens ECU... do you have to buy the PC5 M1100 specific unit or will any PC5 suffice? seems a bit of a waste of time to pay for the optimisers if you aren't going to use them...

if this works out as hoped then perhaps I can send the PC map to Chris at Rexxer and they make the changes to the map they have already provided and I can remove again the PC5? As mentioned I am pretty big on keeping the machine as simple as possible...

Interested in your informed opinions.

many thanks


   

[ungeheuer]

How's that AFR gauge comparing?

 

Its still in the box.  Soon(ish) - January is playtime  .

If I buy the AT 100 (are we still of the opinion it is the preferred unit?)... does it have to stay in the loop or can I just use it as a tuning aid and save the Auto tune corrected file and then remove the AT 100 from the bike?

AT100 or AT300 - whichever you can get at the best price (they're the same, apart form the AT100 loom plug, which you'll cut off).  Advantage of Autotune is that it's constantly adjusting to your target tune on the fly, but sure, you could remove it after a while and run with fixed PCV mapping from there on.  But then why not skip the Autotune and just put the bike on a Dyno?

If I have a friend here with 1098 and 1198 that wants to use the Power Commander also and I am wondering if we can share the tool and sensors....
As the O2 sensors are disabled in the Siemens ECU... do you have to buy the PC5 M1100 specific unit or will any PC5 suffice?

I cant help you with an answer on using a non-M1100 specific PCV.  But theres no reason why you couldn't share out the Autotune between different PCV equipped bikes....  if you could be bothered.  I personally couldn't be arsed.

if this works out as hoped then perhaps I can send the PC map to Chris at Rexxer and they make the changes to the map they have already provided and I can remove again the PC5? As mentioned I am pretty big on keeping the machine as simple as possible...

When I last had that conversation with Chris he indicated that they are not able to use PCV mapping as a basis for ECU reflash.

[graydo]

many thanks for the guidance....

Merry Christmas to all.

[metroplex]

What happens if you keep the DP ECU closed loop operation and install the O2 optimizers, with AutoTune?

Could you not still affect the AFR in closed loop? The fact that Dynojet wants you to input 6-10 in the closed loop cells seems interesting.

Also, how would I go about using AutoTune with the closed loop operation enabled? Disconnect the stock O2s and O2 optimizers and stick the widebands into the stock bungs, then just save the Autotune table for the open loop cells?

[ungeheuer]

What happens if you keep the DP ECU closed loop operation and install the O2 optimizers, with AutoTune?

Autotune will effectively "tune" only in the open loop.  Actually it depends what AFR tables you feed to your Autotune....  In closed loop area, if you ask Autotune to fuel above the optimised target closed loop AFR (13.6:1 IIRC) then the ECU will work to cancel out that additional fuel to return fuelling to within its desired optimised parameters......  Autotune will try to add it back, ECU will cancel it out.... in a self defeating circular exercise. 

Could you not still affect the AFR in closed loop?

Effectively not. See above.

Also, how would I go about using AutoTune with the closed loop operation enabled? Disconnect the stock O2s and O2 optimizers and stick the widebands into the stock bungs, then just save the Autotune table for the open loop cells?

Um.....  With closed loop still in operation (as in not flashed away)... you'd need to leave your stock O2s in situ to do their thing for the ECU.  You'd then need to additionally install your Autotune's wideband O2 probe(s) to report their samples to Autotune to control fuelling according to the AFR values you've set for open loop.

I recommend you read this >>  http://www.bikeboy.org/open_closed_loop_efi.html

[metroplex]

Has anyone ever tried adjusting the fuel map with the closed loop cells and the O2 optimizers? Dynojet says to add 6-10% fuel in those cells, if it didn't make a difference then it would just be kept 0. The Dynojet maps were set to 6, and Dynojet said it could be adjusted to about 10% and to use Autotune or a dynotune to confirm the AFR in those cells.

A few people on forums said to just disconnect the factory narrowbands, ignore the CEL, and just use Autotune for the open loop cells. I never planned to keep the Autotune permanently installed.


I understand the theory of closed loop vs open loop, I deal with it on cars all the time. The way it works on the Siemens ECU is pretty obtuse. It is much easier to adjust/tune on a Ford or Chevy.

[ungeheuer]

The reason the optimisers exist is that you CANNOT adjust fuelling within closed loop - said it before, will say it again - the ECU will endevour to cancel out whatever you add.  If you could add fuel within the closed loop by entering +values in PCV within closed loop cells why would Dynojet bother supplying the optimisers??

A few people on forums said to just disconnect the factory narrowbands, ignore the CEL, and just use Autotune for the open loop cells. I never planned to keep the Autotune permanently installed.

Cool.  Do that then   .

[metroplex]

The reason the optimisers exist is that you CANNOT adjust fuelling within closed loop - said it before, will say it again - the ECU will endevour to cancel out whatever you add.  If you could add fuel within the closed loop by entering +values in PCV within closed loop why would Dynojet bother supplying the optimisers??

Dynojet is asking us to add +6%-+10% in the closed loop cells WITH the optimizers installed to obtain the 13.6:1 AFR. Why are we adding fuel in those cells with the optimizers installed, if the ECU is just going to override everything? Legitimate question. I haven't gotten a clear cut answer on this yet.

I can understand if the optimizers will try to obtain 13.6:1 by themselves, but why do we have to add +6% to +10% in the closed loop region in Power Commander?

[metroplex]

Dynojet gave me some new information, which I also found here: http://www.ducati.ms/forums/216-2010-current-2nd-generation-watercooled/124904-mts-1200-o2-optimizers-installed-2.html#post1227252

So the O2 Optimizers can be adjusted via the PC5 software, which in effect allows tuning of the closed loop region. It's not as clear cut as the AutoTune with the Closed Loop/O2 sensors disabled, but I think a Wideband might work for a baseline and for measuring the adjustments.

So they're asking us to add 6%-10% in the closed loop cells to help with transition fueling, because the ECU w/ active closed loop would revert back to the fixed stoich AFR or in this case, the commanded default 13.6:1

If you read the above thread where the owner installed just the Optimizer, he experienced hesitation regardless of the AFR. My guess is because he didn't have the actual Power Commander to add fuel to the closed loop cells to help with transition fueling. I wonder if the Accel Pump feature could also perform a similar task.