The PCV with Autotune thread......

[ungeheuer]

http://www.vfrdiscussion.com/forum/index.php/topic/52266-just-installed-power-commander-5-on-my-06/

^^ Thanks for that link loopsrider.  A very good read that  

You edited out your dyno theory ya bugger!

I edited out my... um... so-called Dyno theory because I didnt think I'd made myself clear.....  

...I was going to say that it would require a heck of a long time on a dyno to target your A/F ratios using the Autotune...

... and your response confirms that I only clouded the issue further....lol   .  There are those who think that Autotune would get there pretty fast, have a read of this >>  http://www.ducatisti.co.uk/forum/technical-help/50576-pcv-autotune-3.html#post528588  << .  But anyway, thats not what I meant.   I'm thinking you'd do a Dyno run, just like any other (so with Autotune turned off) to create your "perfect" regular PCV fuelling tables (not to be confused with the AFR % target tables).  And then enable Autotune and have the AFR % values which reference these Dyno numbers populate your Autotune AFR tables, thus generating the certainty that you began with the best possible base-mapping and using your Autotune to always "correct" back to that mapping.  So... in theory if there were no environmental or hardware changes your Autotune would need to do very little trimming.  But again, as you can see from that English thread, opinions are divided....

...From what I understand it takes a bit of riding to get the Autotune working closely with the PC V.

Depends how "close" your base PCV mapping is to begin with.  If you did as I've attempted to describe above, then Autotune would keep you on song very quickly.  If at the other extreme you began with  "zero value" PCV mapping, then Autotune would take quite some time to trim and re-trim on the way to building your maps.  

I'm still unsure how I'll approach it....

[DoWorkSon]

So my question is....

Is it better to buy the PC5 and have the bike dyno-tuned for $200+ or.... buy the autotune for $200+ and have the bike constantly adjusting?

[ungeheuer]

Its a good question...

... as you see.... I'm heading down the Autotune path...  is that gonna be "better" in the end?  I have no idea yet.  But finding out is part of the ...um... fun  

Plenty of people simply have PCV nicely set-up on a Dyno and run beautifully with that map from then on.  You change your exhaust?.... or intake?.... or?.... Then you return to the Dyno to do it over.   No unforeseen surprises in that option - its tried n tested  .

[Raux]

ok, confirmation from Dynojet, the AT-100 will work with anybike with two O2 sensors. so you're good to go Ungeheuer.

I have the other two maps if you need them. PM me.

[ungeheuer]

um... wake up Raux will ya...   

Maybe you should take a read of this thread's very 1st post >> http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=42213.msg754968#msg754968    

But thanks for the confirmation  

PM sent.

After more homework and advice I went back to the drawing board on my AFR tables.  New, simpler draft here for anyone interested >>  https://docs.google.com/fileview?id=0B8GYk44zAjpmZGRiZjJkZmItZTIyZC00MTkzLTlkZjAtNjRhYTliOTA0ZTYy&hl=en_GB

[causeofkaos]

One other cost factor that i wouldnt beleive unless i saw the result with my own eyes, is a rear tire. buddy got his 848 dyno tuned and the rear tire was toast. More than 3/4 life left on the tire i saw before and after of the tire and the tire was done.
Everyones result will be different might have been the guy tune-ing, having fun with the 848 but a rear tire should be factored into the equation of dyno tuning.
That and the tune without a dyno (on the fly) is what has me excited about the auto tune. Cant wait for some results from you guys whos pockets are a little deaper than mine.
Thanks for experimenting and posting results.

[Raux]

um... wake up Raux will ya...   

you have no clue

[ungeheuer]

One other cost factor that i wouldnt beleive unless i saw the result with my own eyes, is a rear tire. buddy got his 848 dyno tuned and the rear tire was toast. More than 3/4 life left on the tire i saw before and after of the tire and the tire was done.

Bloody Hell  

That and the tune without a dyno (on the fly) is what has me excited about the auto tune. Cant wait for some results from you guys whos pockets are a little deaper than mine.

Deeper pockets? My pockets are a LOT less deep - either that or my arms got longer - than before I contracted this Ducati Mod Virus.  Only way to inoculate yourself is by staying away from evil places like this .  Sooooo... if you're still here..... I too was attracted to Autotune by the prospect of setting up PCV without Dynotime.  But the thing about Autotuning without pre-defining base mapping on a Dyno is this: You have to get your Autotune AFR% table(s) from which Autotune will build your PCV fuelling map(s) from somewhere.  Dynojet has few PCV maps available for M1100 and none with AFR tables.  So, where are these meaningful AFR% tables coming from?  I've thought up a couple which might work, but so far its nothing more than guess work on my part.  

Consequently I have a Dyno visit booked for the 18th.  

you have no clue

Thanks.  Was there ever any doubt?  

[Speeddog]

One other cost factor that i wouldnt beleive unless i saw the result with my own eyes, is a rear tire. buddy got his 848 dyno tuned and the rear tire was toast. More than 3/4 life left on the tire i saw before and after of the tire and the tire was done.
~~SNIP~~

I got my S4 dyno-tuned in '03 after putting a PCIII on it.
It took some life off of the tire, but nowhere near that severe.
It was a Pirelli Dragon Evo, probably a good bit harder than the gumballs on 848's.

[ungeheuer]

Raux,  thanks for mailing me those 696 Euro dynojet maps.  Checking the AFR tables shows that they're using 13.0 everywhere....  cant see that being ideal.

Anyway to cut to the chase.  Its real.  

Having first Rexxer'd away my stock o2s and rid myself of the original closed loop, for a moment I had me that desirable open loop system we all love to love.  But not for long.  I now have me a NEW fully closed loop Autotune system  .

Its too easy really.  Order the AT-100, pull the stock Lambda probes and fit Dynojet's Bosch Wideband o2 sensors in the vacated holes.  Snip off the Harley-specific connector for 12v/Ground and go find these things some place on your bike - I tapped into the tail light loom with a snazzy surplus Ducati connector/plug/socket I had lying around.  No Harley parts on my bike thank you  .  Wire up the new o2s to your the Autotune module (a fiddly task - surely Dynojet could've come up with a better design - you'll know what I mean when you encounter it), connect your autotune to the PCV with the supplied loom (thats more like it), enable "autotune" within the PCV's config tools, feed it AFR tables and voila!!  

I'm currently running with this as my AFR table(s) >>  https://docs.google.com/fileview?id=0B8GYk44zAjpmZGRiZjJkZmItZTIyZC00MTkzLTlkZjAtNjRhYTliOTA0ZTYy&hl=en_GB

Autotune is trimming the fuel mapping as expected.... actually better than I expected or dared to hope.....  took the bike for a test ride and it ran even better than before, absolutely zero hesitation anywhere in the range... part throttle... full throttle... any where in between... just runs damn well indeed.   Returned from test ride #1 to accept the Autotune "trims" - some large variations applied, many up to the 20% default limit - and set out for test ride #2.  Returning from that ride revealed Autotune trims of much more modest values, indicating that its already getting closer to its "ideal".

Its difficult to see how starting from a properly set up Dynotuned map could possibly run any better than this.  But nevertheless on Saturday I'm booked in for a dyno session to see what else I can learn.

Short story:  If you want to run Autotune with your PCV - with or without any prior dyno setting-up - go for it*.  At this early stage I'm delighted with the results  


*Disclaimer: If you do fit Autotune with or without prior Dyno mapping.... and especially if you use my AFR table to set yours up... you do so entirely at your own risk.  Happy to help, but not financially !! .

[Link]

Raux,  thanks for mailing me those 696 Euro dynojet maps.  Checking the AFR tables shows that they're using 13.0 everywhere....  cant see that being ideal.

Anyway to cut to the chase.  Its real.  

Having first Rexxer'd away my stock o2s and rid myself of the original closed loop, for a moment I had me that desirable open loop system we all love to love.  But not for long.  I now have me a NEW fully closed loop Autotune system  .

Its too easy really.  Order the AT-100, pull the stock Lambda probes and fit Dynojet's Bosch Wideband o2 sensors in the vacated holes.  Snip off the Harley-specific connector for 12v/Ground and go find these things some place on your bike (I tapped into the tail light loom with a snazzy surplus Ducati connector/plug/socket I had lying around.  No Harley parts on my bike thank you  .  Wire up the new o2s to your the Autotune module (a fiddly task - surely Dynojet could've come up with a better design - you'll know what I mean when you encounter it), connect your autotune to the PCV with the supplied loom (thats more like it), enable "autotune" within the PCV's config tools, feed it AFR tables and voila!!  

I'm currently running with this as my AFR table(s) >>  https://docs.google.com/fileview?id=0B8GYk44zAjpmZGRiZjJkZmItZTIyZC00MTkzLTlkZjAtNjRhYTliOTA0ZTYy&hl=en_GB

Autotune is trimming the fuel mapping as expected.... actually better than I expected or dared to hope.....  took the bike for a test ride and it ran even better than before, absolutely zero hesitation anywhere in the range... part throttle... full throttle... any where in between... just runs damn well indeed.   Returned from test ride #1 to accept the Autotune "trims" - some large variations applied, many up to the 20% default limit - and set out for test ride #2.  Returning from that ride revealed Autotune trims of much more modest values, indicating that its already getting closer to its "ideal".

Its difficult to see how starting from a properly set up Dynotuned map could possibly run any better than this.  But nevertheless on Saturday I'm booked in for a dyno session to see what else I can learn.

Short story:  If you want to run Autotune with your PCV - with or without any prior dyno setting-up - go for it*.  At this early stage I'm delighted with the results  


*Disclaimer: If you do fit Autotune with or without prior Dyno mapping.... and especially if you use my AFR table to set yours up... you do so entirely at your own risk.  Happy to help, but not financially !! .

That's great news to here the autotune is working well. I've been waiting to comment about the autotune untill you were done or almost done ! Anyway thers's some autotune haters out there and since I've never used one I decided to wait for your results. So now I know it's working well I have a question, I have bought the Rexxer User and have 2 maps coming one with 02 sensors & one without 02 sensors, did you start out with the Rex open loop (no sensors) map & PCV ? Or did you try Rex map open loop with no PCV ? Or have you tried any Rex map with out the PCV. I'm curious as I have not bought a PCV and am hoping that with the Rex mapping I will not need the PCV. And from what it sounds like to get optimum you need Rex map, PCV & autotune or a good dyno tune in lieu of the autotune.
 Thanks

[ungeheuer]

Yes, there are some Autotune haters out there.  I have no axe to grind either way,  the idea interested me so I set out to find out for myself.  Its early days yet, but so far I have only good to report.  Many of the haters have a vested interest in doing so however,  I spoke to 2 Dynotune operators who both suggested that Autotune is a waste of time, that they get better results without it....   Maybe.   But.... then they would say that wouldnt they.  

I was hoping to keep this discussion specifcally about PCV/Autotune.... .... but since you asked....

I've been running PCV since my WASP kit (its part of the WASP kit in fact).  PCV was Dyno mapped by WASP for use with their kit on M1100 with Termi slipon cans.  But ofcourse it only functioned in the open loop, the supplied o2 optimizers (similar to the Fat Duc ones) helped smooth things out in the stock closed loop.

And then I Rexxered my stock o2s away and ran the bike open loop.....(still running PCV with WASPs mapping) for a quick test only.  Just to ensure there were no nasty surprises with the reflash.  All good so moved on to where I am right now....

Which is my Rexxered ECU with PCV running WASP's mapping as a base for Autotune to adapt.  Rexxer can create ECU mapping for whatever you want, so yes the beauty of what they do is that you could have your ECU perfectly mapped to match your system.  No piggy back PCV required.  In theory.  In practice unless you have a common setup (which my WASP system is not - yet) how you gonna know if your Rexxered ECU is ideal?  You could put it on a Dyno and find out, sure.  And if its perfect than thats great.  But if its not.... what then?  So thats why I chose to continue with PCV piggy backed to the ECU, so that I can tune it as precisely as possible.  The only reason I Rexxered my o2 sensors away was so that I could continue that precise mapping over the entire range, rather than merely in the stock open loop.  I chose to try the Autotune option, just to find out if I could get it to do that precision work for me.  So far so good.  But confirmation will come when if I cross check the Autotune's work on a Dyno.

I'm sure theres no One Way to get to your "optimum result".... I've decided to try see if I can get (near) there using Autotune but I'm sure a perfectly mapped ECU is probably the neatest way to get to a good - if fixed - end point.

DucNaked is running his M1100 - Termi cans (I think) Cored stock cans, DP hi-flo air filter + DP air box cover - with Rexxered ECU open loop no PCV.  Maybe give him a yell  .

[causeofkaos]

"END POINT"
I cant beleive those words came out of your head? 

[ungeheuer]

^^ 

Nauturally... I wasnt referring to myself  .   My "tuning solution" if it all continues to go well will be constantly variable - no end point for me  .

[Link]

Yes, there are some Autotune haters out there.  I have no axe to grind either way,  the idea interested me so I set out to find out for myself.  Its early days yet, but so far I have only good to report.  Many of the haters have a vested interest in doing so however,  I spoke to 2 Dynotune operators who both suggested that Autotune is a waste of time, that they get better results without it....   Maybe.   But.... then they would say that wouldnt they.  On the other hand the Dyno guy I'm seeing at the weekend was very enthusiastic about Autotune.....  "guys like me are not supposed to like it, coz once we set the bike up...... we never get any repeat business...." was his comment.  I like to keep an open mind.

I was hoping to keep this discussion specifcally about PCV/Autotune.... .... but since you asked....

I've been running PCV since my WASP kit (its part of the WASP kit in fact).  PCV was Dyno mapped by WASP for use with their kit on M1100 with Termi slipon cans.  But ofcourse it only functioned in the open loop, the supplied o2 optimizers (similar to the Fat Duc ones) helped smooth things out in the stock closed loop.

And then I Rexxered my stock o2s away and ran the bike open loop.....(still running PCV with WASPs mapping) for a quick test only.  Just to ensure there were no nasty surprises with the reflash.  All good so moved on to where I am right now....

Which is my Rexxered ECU with PCV running WASP's mapping as a base for Autotune to adapt.  Rexxer can create ECU mapping for whatever you want, so yes the beauty of what they do is that you could have your ECU perfectly mapped to match your system.  No piggy back PCV required.  In theory.  In practice unless you have a common setup (which my WASP system is not - yet) how you gonna know if your Rexxered ECU is ideal?  You could put it on a Dyno and find out, sure.  And if its perfect than thats great.  But if its not.... what then?  So thats why I chose to continue with PCV piggy backed to the ECU, so that I can tune it as precisely as possible.  The only reason I Rexxered my o2 sensors away was so that I could continue that precise mapping over the entire range, rather than merely in the stock open loop.  I chose to try the Autotune option, just to find out if I could get it to do that precision work for me.  So far so good.  But confirmation will come when I cross check the Autotune's work on a Dyno.

I'm sure theres no One Way to get to your "optimum result".... I've decided to try see if I can get (near) there using Autotune but I'm sure a perfectly mapped ECU is probably the neatest way to get to a good - if fixed - end point.

DucNaked is running his M1100 - Termi cans (I think) Cored stock cans, DP hi-flo air filter + DP air box cover - with Rexxered ECU open loop no PCV.  Maybe give him a yell  .

Thanks for the info. I understand now that the Rexxer mapping for no 02 sensors will run the bike without a PCV maybe perfect maybe not but a bunch better then stock I'm sure. Weather or not I go for a PCV will depend on how the bike runs with just the Rexxer maps. I'm really not searching for optimum on this bike I just want to make it run right & I like tinkering with these things, this isn't even my 696 it belongs to my GF. So now the dash will read Her name & she'll probably be more thrilled with that then how it's running ! Oh well I'll get to test drive it with the DB killers out and redline it to 10K that will at least put a smile on my face. I will update the 696 Rexxer results when done. It will be interesting to see your dyno results and compare it to stock run. All the dyno charts I've seen on the 696 whether it has a stock ecu, DP ECU or PCV with optimizers all still have a large dip in the curve around 4K to 6K I'm hoping the Rexxer map will take some of that out. I haven't paid any attention to 1100 dyno charts but I'm sure your looking for a nice smooth power curve and I'm guessing the stock bike was far from that.