ATGNFI

[Cloner]

Nobody's taking issue with the fact that Boris and his mates felt it necessary to actually RACE from the light. To me, that just kinda nullified any of his judgments of ANY rider or ANY gear setup he had laid out before it.

Sac and Iain, well stated thoughts. Thanks for balancing Boris' article with your insights.

Sac brought that up early in the thread.  You are correct in saying it invalidates any opinions the author stated.  The street is no place to race, especially when baiting "poor swimmers out into the deep water".

I race with people at lights.  We line up on a grid...the light comes on...the light goes out...we race ten laps.   

[NorDog]

In short, your buddy is asshole and I hope I never have the misfortune to share a road with him.

sac

[ducpainter]

<snip> we are adults responsible for ourselves and no one else can assume the blame for our actions.

We are? 

[Ddan]

not at Starbucks...LOL

while most of the painting here is with that broad brush of overgeneralization, I must say, some great illustrative points have been made. My only major point I am going to rebut anything with is this, as long as I don't hurt you when I ride, what the make the beast with two backs does it matter what I am wearing while I ride. We make the choices we make for ourselves, unlike the choices we made for what to wear when we were being influenced by the clicks in high school. At least, I certainly hope so, because we are adults responsible for ourselves and no one else can assume the blame for our actions.

Unfortunately, insurance isn't about personal responsibility, it's about spreading the pain among the group.  We all pay for stupid.

[koko64]

I've crashed and I've not crashed.

Not crashing wins.

big

True.
When you crashed, did you have gear on?

[rideserotta]

Unfortunately, insurance isn't about personal responsibility, it's about spreading the pain among the group.  We all pay for stupid.

And we pay for those with no insurance. That drives me nuts.

[bigiain]

True.
When you crashed, did you have gear on?

4 times in jeans/leather jacket/bike gloves/non-bike-specific boots. (two of them during a commute to/from work)
Once in full gear (the above + back protector, proper bike boots, and leather pants).

Three of those crashes were completely my fault, and yet I still didn't crash in a way that I would have been any more injured in a long sleeved shirt instead of a jacket - I'd all three times managed to wipe off enough speed after realising how badly I'd make the beast with two backsed up that the actual "crash" was little more than falling over at jogging speed or less. I didn't even scuff my gloves on the road in two of those crashes.

One of those crashes I was stationary at a red light, and wasn't keeping a watch out for the car that came through from behind me and swerved at the last minute and clipped my bike - I ended up sitting on the side of the tank without ever having touched the road. I could have been start naked in this crash, and the only danger I'd have been in was sunburn (I wasn't even at risk of burning myself on the exhaust, since the car ripped it of and sent it spinning into the intersection)

The other crash was on the way home from a weekend-away fast riding trip. I got knocked off in traffic by a Toyota Landcruiser in a queue of traffic (including me) who'd slowed to walking pace - the Landcruiser driver wasn't paying attention and hit me from behind doing maybe as much as 80kmh (50mph) - I was thrown from the bike into the dirt down the 4-5 foot embankment at the side of the road - there was damage on my helmet and forearm that showed my gear _did_ do it's job, but all the gear didn't save me from dislocating my shoulder when I landed on it.

Yes, I fully accept that "ATG" _will_ save you from some pain and hurt if you're sliding along the road (even if its only a very short slide). Some riding style choices make that particular form of crash _way_ more likely. I'll wear the gear for those rides (which is why I had the gear on in the last crash described - we'd just done ~2000km (1300miles) of _that_ style of riding.

At the same time I also acknowledge that there is no motorcycle safety gear that's going to stop me dislocating my shoulder when I land on it the wrong way - neither is any gear going to stop a car breaking my bones when it jams my leg between things.

I've made mistakes, Occasionally that's lead to a crash, and I have learnt from those mistakes and not made them again. More often mistakes have lead to "close calls", and while not quite as strong a lesson, I've learnt from many of them as well, both about how to recognise situations to not get into again in the future, as well as ways to stop those situations and situations like them from ending up in crashes.

In my experience "ATG" isn't going to help _me_ in any of the kinds of accident _I'm_ at risk of in _my_ commuting ride to work and back, or for similar "around town transport" rides. And without wanting to blow my own horn here I've got a fair bit of experience to draw from, I've not owned a car since early 1999 and have commuted 80km (50miles) a day by motorcycle every work day since then (with the exception of one month in 2003 when the government decided my license wasn't valid for 30 days...). That's about 230,00km (145,000miles) of riding to work and back, and to odometers on the three bikes add up to about 475,000km (295k miles) - a little of that non-commuting mileage will have been running around town after work or weekend, but the bulk of it will be touring or scratching rides. I've averaged 3,300km per month on a motorcycle (~2000miles/month) for the last 12 years.

Like I said upthread, if someone starts on with the ATGATT, I'm just smile (probably trying hard not to let on that it's at least slightly a condescending smirk). If they want to start telling me what to wear though, they'd better have some experience behind them and a way to show me they've done some thinking about it beforehand... If you've got less than 3 digits of mileage on your brand new current-year-model sportsbike with brand new looking leathers and this years racer-de-jour replica helmet, I _might_ be jumping to erroneous conclusions, but you're going to have to understand that I'm going to start out assuming you're probably "one of them" and disregard any argument from you until you manage to convince me your opinion is worth listening to. (At the same time, I've met a few grizzly old '70s BMW riders who appear to have had "only one years riding experience, 30 times over" - who appear to have done no more thinking about riding safety than an enthusiastic learner rider.)

ramble ramble ramble, what were we talking about again?

Oh yeah...

In my_ opinion, the most important bit of safety equipment you've got is your brain. Using your brain properly is _many_ of orders of magnitude more significant in how likely you are to hurt yourself than what gear you're wearing. If I've chosen to ride safely, the extra level of safety offered by "ATG" is so low as to be insignificant. For me, that means at least half of the riding I do - all my commuting - I'm perfectly happy not wearing "ATG".

big

[koko64]

Too true about using your brain and skill as the first line of defence.
As you said, not crashing wins best of all.

I'm just of the mindset of riding not to crash but gearing up like it could happen. You're right to say that all the gear in the world won't save you in some circumstances. But I reckon those with NFI need all the gear they can get!
I'm saying that there are a number of factors in the equation of working the odds as best you can; skill is one and gearing up is another, just like learning from mistakes another, having your bike working properly another, not riding pissed or stoned another, using judgement another.

Since there's no guarantees in life it's just trying to work the odds in your favour.

It's about having a fighting chance; I reckon Boris would understand that.

[Raux]

I'm kinda late into this discussion and no way I'm reading them all... the first upset me enough.

Wearing the proper gear for safety is not an excuse for riding like an idiot.
nor is wearing no gear a guarantee you're the safest rider in the world.

Every accident on a motorcycle could be prevented in the eyes of one hospital tech I met.... "Don't ride," he said.
Thanks, I'll take my chances.

It doesn't matter what you ride nor what you wear, an idiot is an idiot and an ass is an ass. The author of the article, is an ass. The riders he made fun of were idiots (or so he made them seem). Remember that all 'journalism' comes from the perspective of the writer.

Anyway, I wear gear that will help REDUCE or PREVENT injury IF I have an accident, whether my fault or some driver running a stop sign.

It doesn't make me a better rider, but it certainly makes me a less nervous rider. I find myself nervous if I don't wear my hard back armor. Hesitant on corners if not wearing soft or hard knee armor. and NO WAY would I ride without a helmet. I like how smart I am, however smart that is right now.

[Cloner]

I like to ride with folks who know what they're doing.  But for those newbs who ride Gixxers in shorts and tank tops....

[WarrenJ]

I had the opportunity to talk to a couple of fighter pilots that had flown numbers of ugly missions in Viet Nam and other places.  One of their cardinal rules was "Dress for Egress"   They did not plan on being shot down, but they prepared for the eventuality every time they stepped into their aircraft.  I've only been riding for 3 years, I started when I was 45.  This puts me in the highest risk category for injury and accident.  I don't ride without gear and at least a little first aid equipment.  Longer trips or more aggressive riding causes me to pack more emergency gear, if not for me, someone else may need it, or can use it on me. 

Every time I get on the bike, I prepare like I might have an unplanned get off.  Works for me, YMMV. 

[bigiain]

I had the opportunity to talk to a couple of fighter pilots that had flown numbers of ugly missions in Viet Nam and other places.  One of their cardinal rules was "Dress for Egress"   They did not plan on being shot down, but they prepared for the eventuality every time they stepped into their aircraft. 

Entirely appropriate - but I'll bet they don't wear the same gear when they board a 747, or even a Cessna 172...

big

[J5]

Entirely appropriate - but I'll bet they don't wear the same gear when they board a 747, or even a Cessna 172...

big

try it on your next flight to the states , a chute on the back

i wonder what the fellow passengers would think if they saw the pilot all geared up ready for the skydive 

[zooom]

http://thekneeslider.com/archives/2010/12/13/does-motorcycle-training-reduce-motorcycle-accidents/

interesting op/ed...

[sbrguy]

the main thing i see is that everyone is different.

some lead charmed lives others don't.  for the ones that don't gear might help mitigate the damage in some instance but not all.  for those that lived a charmed life they don't need gear well because they won't ever get in that situation.

the question you have to ask and KNOW the answer to is which category are you in?

unless you have a crystal ball its tough to know 100% which one you are.  thus the reason that some people wear gear, because they think they might be in the latter category.  thus the reason some dont' wear gear they think they are in the former category.