Gas prices

[uclabiker06]

Wow these replies are so informative and fantastic...

[il d00d]

DrJones is gonna love this ( ), but I don't think gas prices will be fixed by more efficient vehicles, but by vehicles that don't need gas.  Or very little gas, or alternative fuels, used to create electricity.  My point earlier about market counterforce had more to do with the short-term, but I don't disagree about the long-term effects of consuming less.  I wish it was a viable option for me to stop driving whenever oil companies, refinery operators and energy traders conspire to make me pay more at the pump.
I just don't see any other way to achieve large-scale improvements in efficiency, except if do it on a large scale (ie, at the power plants).   In a way, I hope I am wrong.  I like the sound exhaust pipes make

On a somewhat related note, I did some reading on these recently... pretty interesting, but like fuel cells, hydrogen, etc  not quite ready to compete with what we use now.
Bloom Box - fuel cell generator
http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Society/2010/0222/Bloom-Box-What-is-it-and-how-does-it-work

Here is a company in AU that is producing a residential model - they appear to be in "beta" phase with it now.
http://www.cfcl.com.au/BlueGen/

[akmnstr]

Don't discount Solar energy.  Actually it is the source of all our energy except nuclear.  Oil, coal, wood, the food we eat were all originally solar.  Plants are converting solar energy every day.  The problem is energy storage.  Once the sun goes down we have no way to store what we have gathered during the day.  The same happens with wind energy when the wind stops.  There are huge sources of geothermal energy too but how do we store it and transport it from places like Iceland and the Aleutian Islands.  We need a completed new paradigm on how to store energy.  Once we master the storage problem moving away from oil will be easy.   

[uclabiker06]

We do need a new paradigm.  I think its possible.  A little wind energy, some solar, geothermal, nuclear(okay maybe not yet), and oceanic energy.  Put all those together and it will have some effect, but its going to be take time.  Anyways, I don't see gas prices going back down.

[Drjones]

The market value of futures reflects the larger supply vs demand paradigm.  Sure there are people profiting from trading paper, but if one wants to make that illegal and damn it as demon spawn then one needs to step up to the plate and relinquish their savings account interest gains and 401k equity gains or be called a hypocrite.  Afterall there is no good reason one should be earning 1% interest for doing nothing while another is charged 4% interest on a loan instead of 3% using your logic.  The person speculating on an interest gain is adding no value to the system right.

When Libya imploded production shut down. That's 4% of the oil supply off of the market in a flash. What price increase in fuel costs will it take for people to adjust their consumption habbits down by 4%?  The consensus among economists is 30% avg before people sit up, take notice and adjust their consumption accordingly.  Libya erupted around March when gas prices around here were ~$3.25 and gas prices are now just below $4.  That is a 23% increase and low a behold here we are in a thread pregnant doging about gas prices when there were none back in March.  Hmmmm.  We also have a mass of flood water running down river to a major source of gas refining capactiy.  Hmmmm.  We're also entering the Gulf Hurricane Season when gas prices always increase.  Hmmm.  No it must all be due to teh ebil speculators like all of those damn savings account holders raising my home mortgage rates.  Stomps feet.

DrJones is gonna love this ( ), but I don't think gas prices will be fixed by more efficient vehicles, but by vehicles that don't need gas. . . .

I don't really care actually.  My argument is replace my truck verbatim.  I need something to tow all of my shit, can run back and forth to work, and can go cross country and not take an eon to get there due to refueling time all in the scope of one vehicle, because I ain't rich enough to own one vehicle for each task.  Call me when EV's can do that.  I won't be holding my breath in the meantime.  I'm actually banking on hydrogen to be the replacement transport fuel for the masses . . . eventually.



BTW Exxon is a little fish.  For the big fish one needs to look at Sinopec, Petrobas, etc.  But then those are national oil companies where the owning country will tell you to go pound sand.

[sbrguy]

remember gas is expensive for 1 reason and 1 reason only. 

Because you need it and you have no real alternative, and for the forseable future the next i would guess 100-200 years there is nothing that will replicate or replace it, like another said the energy density for a cup of fuel is better than anything out there, maybe nuclear is better but you can't carry that without health risks in a coke bottle if you needed to.  Just live with it and realize fuel should only go up in price because the companies that drill/refine it can ask whatever they want, what are you going to do otherwise? say no? 

[lethe]

I currently power all my vehicles with positive thinking and making vroom vroom noises

I'm looking to invent a car that runs on body odor as that is easy to produce and quite plentiful.

[muskrat]

lead, acid and nickel cadmium are bad enough (found in hybrids).  If anyone thinks oil is bad look at coal and the inefficiencies yet it powers most of our homes - oil is much more efficient.  There are plenty of alternatives already available and it's not big oil keeping them from the markets either.......drill drill drill

[cokey]

Yea I remember reading years back..  something about the amount of pollution it takes to make the battery of a Prius..  it was more then the amount an old car makes in its life time... or something of that nature.  I don't pregnant dog about gas prices.. I use 93 or higher in my daily.  If I feel like not wasting money on gas I ride my bicycle to work..

[ducpainter]

We've reached maximum world population for the land now being farmed to sustain said population using current methods.

Where did you get this info?

I believe it was from Harry Kaiser of Cornell.

[il d00d]

The market value of futures reflects the larger supply vs demand paradigm.  Sure there are people profiting from trading paper, but if one wants to make that illegal and damn it as demon spawn then one needs to step up to the plate and relinquish ..blather

I dunno if you are responding to something I said or not, but I don't see that anyone else said anything like that either.  You're tilting at windmills.

When Libya imploded production shut down. That's 4% of the oil supply off of the market in a flash. What price increase in fuel costs will it take for people to adjust their consumption habbits down by 4%? 

Libya, who supplies 4% of the world's oil (and 0% of the US oil supply), starts getting bombed, which results in a 20%+ increase in the price of gas in the US.  The math still isn't working out for me.  I'll keep at it though.

I don't really care actually.  My argument is replace my truck verbatim. 

I like how you, in the same breath, argue for reduced consumption, and insist on doing exactly the same things you have always done in the cheap oil era with your ostensibly 12-15 mpg truck.  For the record, there are lots of holes in your argument, that was just my favorite one.

Hmmmm....  Hmmmm.  ...Hmmm. ... 

Wow.  Persuasive.  Anyways, don't take it from me, ask...

Rex Tillerson, the boss of ExxonMobil admitted last week that  the price of oilâ€"based purely on supply and demand- should be in the $60 to $70 a barrel range. The reason it's above $100 a barrel, Tillerson  explained, is due to the oil majors using futures contracts to lock in current high prices, and speculation that is engineered by the high-frequency trading of quantitative hedge funds.
...
Here are some other juicy disclosures from the hearing:

â€"The average cost of producing 1 barrel of oil was $11; the average price of the oil in the marketplaceâ€"$72â€" some 6.5 times the cost of getting the oil out of the ground.

***Link

[ungeheuer]

Libya, who supplies 4% of the world's oil (and 0% of the US oil supply), starts getting bombed, which results in a 20%+ increase in the price of gas in the US.  The math still isn't working out for me.  I'll keep at it though.

The US doesnt buy oil from Libya?

But it does import oil, no?

From a world market which is now only 96% of pre-Libya implosion.  The many other nations on the face of the earth which did previously consume Libian oil continue to buy their oil from the remaining availability.

100% of the demand for 96% of the supply.

But why did "they" increase US gas prices by 20%?  Fear and uncertainty.  But mostly because "they" can .

20%.  Its a good start  .

[Drjones]

Ask what? A hack job of reporting full of misrepresentations?  As always one needs to go to the source to get the true unedited story:  http://finance.senate.gov/hearings/hearing/?id=974701fa-5056-a032-5227-d055ec6b20d1

The $11 vs $72 was put up by Sen. Baucus (Democrat) and in testimony he admitted that it is GROSS margins and confirmed by the oil execs generally stating that those figures aren't taking into account operating expenses and taxes.  Of course the truth won't get many headlines now will it.  Also divulged in the hearing was that the oil company profits on the sale of gasoline was around 6 cents per gallon while the average taxes collected by the States was 50 cents per gallon.

Tillerson's comments on pure supply and demand were made, but also explained that is only for the "next barrel" meaning that any barrells after that would be higher depending on the market.  The second part of the statement in the article is false as it wasn't made by the Exxon chief it is purely the editor interjecting his own words.  What was said is that the price of oil is set by the GLOBAL markets that they, US oil companies, have no say over and it is hard to tell what is speculation and what is the GLOBAL markets applying RISK management.  Also stated that pricing in risk is normal for all commodities and that oil is a highly volitile commodity.

Other "Juicy tidbits" was that the the supposed majority of profits used to buy back shares of oil companies was actually only one company and that majority came from the sale of their percent interest in a Russian Oil Company.  Though again, it gets more headlines by hacking up an article insinuating that the stock buy back was from oil profits.

Your article is only persuasive to metal twits that belive what they read in todays media.

---

I wasn't arguing for or against reduced oil consumption but commenting on utility of gas powered vehicles vs the current crop of alternative fuel vehicles.  None of them can replace my truck.  Call me when they can and when they're less than $20k, because that's all I can intelligently afford on a vehicle.