2011 M796 ABS Cold Start Issue

[ungeheuer]

Looking for feedback and enlightenment from M796 owners who have the same issue. Others need not apply. 

I posted some thoughts earlier....  and then deleted 'em after I realised you're only interested in hearing from M796 owners.  But I'll risk a second shot  .

The jury is still out on this but I suspect the Euro 3 cold start strategy is too lean on the stock ECU. I'm still not sure whether 215 CCA on the stock battery is sufficient or whether the bike needs a richer map.

I'm absolutely convinced that the cold starting issues on both M796 and M1100 are due to the overly lean fuelling of the stock mapping.  They have regulations to meet, and its starts eventually so thats all the criteria met  .  Hard to please the Eurocrats and the owners  .  If you take a look around here you'll find that the issues you're now discussing have been discussed and tackled by M1100 owners previously.  I'm sure that the issue is the same.  Richer fuelling is required.

"thought" didn't have this issue running the DP ECU and Termignonis on his 796 and I'd guess that ECU is richer.

I'm not convinced that Siemens DP ECU fuels any richer at start-up.

Maybe a Fat Duc would correct this but they don't appear to make one for our bikes.

Curmudgeon, I have a pair of redundant-to-me Fat Duc type O2 "optimisers" which richen the fuelling target in closed loop from stock 14.7:1 to 13.6:1.  They're designed for M1100 and came with my PCV as Dynojet's workaround for their inability to tune in the stock closed loop. I've since had my ECU reflashed and so have no current use for them. If you'd like to give them a try on your M796 I'd be happy to drop 'em in the mail to you.  Although I dont believe they will make any difference at cold start-up, they will smooth out any part throttle hesitations as a result of the stock leanness.  To cure your cold starting issues, you need to get more fuel in there. 

[Curmudgeon]

Many thanks but Fat Duc says, "Please note O2 Manipulators are not compatible with 2009 - 2011 Monster 696/1100 and 2010 - 2011 Hypermotard 796/1100."

What did the M1100 owners do? I did a few searches but mainly came up with obsevations on other fora for M1100. I've tried a few but have not isolated the issue yet.

Thanks for the input!

[metroplex]

From the monsterparts site:

O2 Manipulators are not compatible with Ducati Performance ECUs (as supplied with Termignoni exhausts) or other controllers that bypass the factory oxygen sensor. They are compatible with the following models using Ducati Oxygen/Lambda Sensor Part #552.1.111.1A:

I just found this old posting from Desmoworks where he says the DP Race ECU still retains the O2 sensor function for closed loop function.

Does the Ducati start in closed loop? Usually cars start in open loop.

[Raux]

Many thanks but Fat Duc says, "Please note O2 Manipulators are not compatible with 2009 - 2011 Monster 696/1100 and 2010 - 2011 Hypermotard 796/1100."

What did the M1100 owners do? I did a few searches but mainly came up with obsevations on other fora for M1100. I've tried a few but have not isolated the issue yet.

Thanks for the input!

Like Ungeheuer said, the Powercommander V comes with two O2 manipulators. I'm using them now without even running the PCV. It enriches the closed loop portion of the map.

[ungeheuer]

Many thanks but Fat Duc says, "Please note O2 Manipulators are not compatible with 2009 - 2011 Monster 696/1100 and 2010 - 2011 Hypermotard 796/1100."

What did the M1100 owners do? I did a few searches but mainly came up with obsevations on other fora for M1100. I've tried a few but have not isolated the issue yet.

Thanks for the input!

Pay attention  .  I know that Fat Duc doesnt make anything for your bike or mine.  

The items I'm describing are not made by Fat Duc.  Fat Duc type.... as in: a similar thing to that which Fat Duc makes for other bikes but designed for M1100/M696 by Dynojet.  Dynojet's O2 Optimisers come as part of the PCV kit for M696 and M1100 (and presumably M796), but there's no reason at all why they couldnt be fitted as a stand-alone Fattener within the closed loop, sans PCV.

[Raux]

Pay attention  .  I know that Fat Duc doesnt make anything for your bike or mine.  The items I'm describing are not made by Fat Duc.  Fat Duc type.... as in: a similar thing to that which Fat Duc makes for other bikes but designed for M1100/M696 by Dynojet.  Dynojet's O2 Optimisers come as part of the PCV kit for M696 and M1100 (and presumably M796), but there's no reason at all why they couldnt be fitted as a stand-alone Fattener within the closed loop, sans PCV.

lmao... we were reading at the same time. 

[ungeheuer]

 

I'm using them now without even running the PCV. It enriches the closed loop portion of the map.

^^ See?  

[ungeheuer]

How would we get our stock ECUs reflashed for richer low temp cold starting? I wouldn't necessarily make it run richer in closed or open loop because that is when the engine is fully warmed up. The cold start fuel tables are usually separate from open or closed loop AFR - at least on all of my Fords and GMs. Unless of course we know our stock/DP ECUs are programmed for leaner than 14.7:1 in closed loop?

You can have your ECU reflashed with whatever modified criteria you see fit.  Or you could fit a PCV which allows you to add fuel at start-up.

Some info here:
http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=41934.0
http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=43335.0
http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=53037.0

[metroplex]

Thanks. I dug up the instructions for the 696's PCV:

Install the O2 Optimizer in the tool kit area.
The O2 optimizer for this model controls the stock closed loop area. This area is represented by the highlighted cells shown in Figure N. The optimizer is designed to achieve a target AFR of 13.6:1. To use this optimizer you must retain your stock O2 sensors.
It is important to have values of 10 in the highlighted area of your map.
If using the Auto tune system do NOT input values in this area in your Target AFR table.

Unless the Siemens ECU does it differently, cars generally start up in open loop mode and apply a cold start fuel table based on coolant/cylinder temp and air temp. They rarely if ever start in closed loop.

The problem we all seem to be experiencing is with cold starts, but I do notice my 696 exhaust popping when I close my throttle and wouldn't doubt it runs lean.

BTW I thought I even saw "Deka" written on the side of my 696 injectors, they look like the short form version of the Siemens Deka injectors on late model Fords (Marauder, S197 Mustang, etc...)

[Howie]

From the monsterparts site:
I just found this old posting from Desmoworks where he says the DP Race ECU still retains the O2 sensor function for closed loop function.

Does the Ducati start in closed loop? Usually cars start in open loop.

Open loop.  The O2 sensor will not operate until they are heated to 600^oF.

[Curmudgeon]

Pay attention  .  I know that Fat Duc doesn't make anything for your bike or mine.  

The items I'm describing are not made by Fat Duc.  Fat Duc type.... as in: a similar thing to that which Fat Duc makes for other bikes but designed for M1100/M696 by Dynojet.  Dynojet's O2 Optimisers come as part of the PCV kit for M696 and M1100 (and presumably M796), but there's no reason at all why they couldn't be fitted as a stand-alone Fattener within the closed loop, sans PCV.

Thanks! Missed that. My brain must be turning to Swiss cheese.  Where did you get the "ungeheuer" handle BTW?

"Frost on the pumpkin" last PM, so this is not a hugely pressing matter although we DO get 70 F days in VA out of nowhere sometimes. I may take you up on your kind offer at some point. While I have no major complaints with the stock 796 fueling, a bit richer might be nice as I suspect it would run smoother at lower RPM. At this point I plan to keep it stock as I'm short of "mad money" and it goes plenty fast for around here. Tricking the O2 sensors won't do anything for cold starts either, right? Is that a fixed enrichment on the Dynojet units or adjustable like the Fat Duc?

I read that first link you attached and got a headache. 

For now I'd like a quick fix for just the cold start issue. It didn't do this for the first 400 miles. Hard to comprehend as many 796's don't have this apparently...

[ungeheuer]

Tricking the O2 sensors won't do anything for cold starts either, right? Is that a fixed enrichment on the Dynojet units or adjustable like the Fat Duc?

Correct, tricking the O2 sensors will do nothing for cold starting, so we're getting a little off your original topic I realise. The Dynojet items come pre-set to fuel at 13.6:1 and I found that a vast improvement over stock.  But they do have VRs so that you can alter the story they tell to the ECU (I've never opened mine up and so never attempted to adjust them from the Dynojet pre-set - I believe Raux is your man in that department).

Generally, it seems that both the Siemens stock ECUs and DP ECUs fuel these bikes on the lean side.  There are a number of ways to up the fuelling rate.  And its my firm opinion that getting more fuel in there at start-up will solve your cold start issue. 

Where did you get the "ungeheuer" handle BTW?

Long story  .  I spent some time living in Germany.... harks back to those crazy days  .

[metroplex]

How about using lower octane fuel and iridium spark plugs? I've been using 93 octane (US, PON/AKI) while the manual calls for 95 (I assume to be RON) which I found out is more like 89 octane PON/AKI. However, I have cars that are required to use 87 octane start perfectly fine with 93 or 94 octane.

I read a few reviews for Denso plugs where the original owners had the same NGK copper plugs and noticed the Denso iridium allowed for easier starts.

[Howie]

How about using lower octane fuel and iridium spark plugs? I've been using 93 octane (US, PON/AKI) while the manual calls for 95 (I assume to be RON) which I found out is more like 89 octane PON/AKI. However, I have cars that are required to use 87 octane start perfectly fine with 93 or 94 octane.

I read a few reviews for Denso plugs where the original owners had the same NGK copper plugs and noticed the Denso iridium allowed for easier starts.

Lower octane may help, most stock 2 valvers run fine on 87.  Yes, the 95 in the manual is RON.

[Curmudgeon]

Correct, tricking the O2 sensors will do nothing for cold starting, so we're getting a little off your original topic I realise. The Dynojet items come pre-set to fuel at 13.6:1 and I found that a vast improvement over stock.  But they do have VRs so that you can alter the story they tell to the ECU (I've never opened mine up and so never attempted to adjust them from the Dynojet pre-set - I believe Raux is your man in that department).

Generally, it seems that both the Siemens stock ECUs and DP ECUs fuel these bikes on the lean side.  There are a number of ways to up the fuelling rate.  And its my firm opinion that getting more fuel in there at start-up will solve your cold start issue. 
Long story  .  I spent some time living in Germany.... harks back to those crazy days  .

I'm aware that ~ 14.7:1 is the current "ideal" for catalysts and can see that 13.6:1 would be a lot fatter, but having an "old school" brain, I'd love to know what the ppm CO is for 14.7 and 13.6. It would certainly increase my comfort level.

My Deutsch is weak these days. Never realized that enormous can also be "monster".  Most amusing!