Donington, UK ( Spoiler )

[sqweak]

derby ignoring everything and spewing the same shit. again.

You've beat me Derby.

Nobody debates Stoner's skill and ability to ride.  He IS a great rider and as I said earlier in this thread (and this life) he WILL win races.  However, last year he won 11 races going away after never winning a GP in his life - do you really believe that he suddenly woke up one morning and was Mick Doohan?

Hey look, fresh discussion!

My whole point, all along, has been that his performance is a sum of the parts.  Yes, the D16RR is a nice platform...but it's a platform that took Stoner's ability to take it to a championship.  Of course he didn't wake up a legend, but he didn't just hit the "win" button and hold on either.

All the world wants to see is what happens when he has some competition.  Quite honestly, I've been somewhat impressed by his riding this year.  He's actually done quite well so far and is in good position with half the season left.  I gave him credit for last year, I'm just of the opinion that some people gave him too much credit.  If he wins it this year, he will have earned my respect as a racer, but I will never root for him.

I'm a Stoner fan but not a fanboy.  All I've ever campaigned for is that he get some due respect for putting it all together.  Let's go back to my original post in this thread and the Catalunya thread.  Why do people (not targeted at you, nor derby, but fans/journos/etc in general) praise Dani for his performance and discount Stoner for doing the same thing?  I think it's a valid question.

My problem with Stoner comes from a couple places -

#1.  He's an arrogant prick who loves to blame others.
#2.  His style if riding represents everything I hate about the way GP is going.
#3.  His wife ISN'T that hot people and anyone who's a GP'er and gets married before their 21st birthday needs to be shot in the head

1: I haven't really seen that behavior from him since joining Ducati.  Can you point me in the direction of examples?

2 & 3 I can't really argue with, as they're subjective.

[derby]

You've beat me Derby.

well, it appears we've once again reached the point in the discussion where you aren't even acknowledging statements i've actually made. you misrepresent my prior comments, inserting your idea of what my opinions are and then bow out with a rolleye. good on ya, sir. 

Hey look, fresh discussion!

is it really?

[sqweak]

well, it appears we've once again reached the point in the discussion where you aren't even acknowledging statements i've actually made. you misrepresent my prior comments, inserting your idea of what my opinions are and then bow out with a rolleye. good on ya, sir. 

 

Really? You just said that?  You just projected *everything* that you did on your last reply onto me? Nice derb, nice.

[derby]

Really? You just said that?  You just projected *everything* that you did on your last reply onto me? Nice derb, nice.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strawman

A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position.[1] To "set up a straw man" or "set up a straw man argument" is to describe a position that superficially resembles an opponent's actual view but is easier to refute, then attribute that position to the opponent (for example, deliberately overstating the opponent's position).[1] A straw man argument can be a successful rhetorical technique (that is, it may succeed in persuading people) but it carries little or no real evidential weight, because the opponent's actual argument has not been refuted.[2]

let me give you an example:

Let's review your statements from last year...

Stoner only wins because Ducati gambled on performance over fuel economy. Just you wait until everyone else catches up.

i challenge you to find anywhere i actually said that.

if you want to actually have a discussion, i suggest you re-read my statements regarding this topic on TOB as well as here. if you're just going to make stuff up and attribute it to me, this is just a waste of time.

[gm2]

My whole point, all along, has been that his performance is a sum of the parts. 

well then perfect.  i've also said that, sometimes in way too many words, MANY times.

i've also said that last year was a series of events and circumstances that had a complimentary-or-disastrous effect on the performance of many teams and riders.  i've also detailed these things ad nauseam.  no one wants to hear them again, least of all me.

these two things above are mutually exclusive statements.  the 2nd is not a caveat for the first.

these two things above are mutually exclusive statements.  the 2nd is not a caveat for the first.


i know that this is basically just a(n entertaining) pissing match between you and derby, but he and i have said essentially the same things over and over (certainly with different... personality) and you ARE misrepresenting those things.  seemingly to have something to argue about.

[ducpainter]

Is it gang up on sqweak day? 

So last year Ducati and Bridgestone got it right and no one else did...

sounds like racing to me.

The competition is more fun to watch this year.

[sqweak]

Tell me derby, how do I source your statements IRL?  Should I start recording you?  Should I log our IM discussions?

You made a statement, to that effect, at a bbq at your house watching one of the first races of last year.  I specifically asked you for your thoughts on why the Duc was so dominant.  In that discussion you specifically cited that your belief, by "reports" from your various favored news sources, was that Ducati had gambled on the fuel economy in favor of performance.  You went on to state that under further development it was likely that the others would catch up.

Was what I posted it as verbatim? no.  Was it the spirit of the statement? yes. Can I source it? no.  Does that make it invalid and a Strawman argument? no.

I'm not here for character assassination, so fear not, I'll never discuss it with you again.

[Grampa]

all the races are in the fix

Rossi wins Italy

Pedrobot wins Spain

Toseland wins..... shit, uh..... Stoner is pastey white, he'll do, wins England



 

[Pakhan]

Sorry sqweak but I gotta call BS on one of your statements.  I don't know anyone who praises Dani 

[derby]

so at the beginning of LAST season, during one of these "first races of the year" that you say reward straight line speed, you asked me why the duc was faster and i said they gambled on fuel economy?

believe me, if ducati didn't think they would make it to the end of the race on a tank of fuel, they wouldn't be circling the track.

the only story i recall relaying (both IRL and TOB) regarding ducati fuel economy with regards to performance was that honda (either an engineer or head of the program) was impressed they could get that much power and make it to the end of the race given the smaller fuel tanks mandated last year.

i'm sure gm2 would back me up on this if he hadn't just told me privately that he'll give me $20 if he ever posted on this subject again.

[Jester]

Toseland wins..... shit, uh..... Stoner is pastey white, he'll do, wins England

Then gets boo'ed when they realize its not Toseland.

[tufty]

Then gets boo'ed when they realize its not Toseland.

He got booed because he is not all that popular in the UK. He has said some pretty disparaging things about the UK, it's fans, tracks and racing scene. Consequently many Englishmen view him as yet another arrogant Australian giving the mother country crap..... Actually that is an Australian hobby I believe, they call it Pommie bashing.

[Triple J]

i'm sure gm2 would back me up on this if he hadn't just told me privately that he'll give me $20 if he ever posted on this subject again.

 

 

[Jester]

Then gets boo'ed when they realize its not Toseland.

He got booed because he is not all that popular in the UK. He has said some pretty disparaging things about the UK, it's fans, tracks and racing scene. Consequently many Englishmen view him as yet another arrogant Australian giving the mother country crap..... Actually that is an Australian hobby I believe, they call it Pommie bashing.

I was more just going along with the previous joke.    I'm aware that UK doesn't like ol' Casey boy.