If there an SS market for Ducati?

[duccarlos]

So stay the course. I'm sure that if the SS were selling back in the day, they would have continued to make them. It would be a cool concept, but not a financially sound decision.

[ducatiz]

I have a pic somewhere showing the sales for each bike model in 2005 -- I think it was around 1000 for the entire year, worldwide, all models.  They continued to sell the 800ss in the USA thru 06 or 07, using up parts or inventory, but that was pretty much it.  I think it was 50% the new look and 50% the performance of the bike.  Not enough people fell in love with the Terblanche design.

This:


versus this:

[PhilB]

I don't think there's much market for that in the U.S.  It would be a sensible useful bike, good for general purposes, and few people in the U.S. want to buy that.  95% of bikes here are toys, used just for fun and rarely as general useful transportation.  And those who do want a bike for general useful transportation usually buy something sturdy and easy to deal with, with a reputation for longevity, like a V-Strom or BMW.

The ugly (as usual) Terblanche design didn't help, I'm sure, but the SS was already way behind the curve as an actual sportbike, and sold ever more poorly each year.  Making it pretty again would have helped a bit, but not changed the eventual outcome.

I've got the Monster, because I like naked bikes; if I liked faired bikes, the SS (or ST) would be my perfect machine, because I ride every day for every purpose.  But that's not the market for bikes in the U.S. in general, much less for specialist marques like Ducati.

PhilB

[Triple J]

Here's a Monster 796 that a local dealer converted to a SS using D16RR fairings. Very cool looking IMO.

[xcaptainxbloodx]

with the spy shots of what appears to be a liquid cooled hyper floating around the internet, and the statement about moving away from desmo valves for  the "entry level bikes" (what could that mean other than monsters?)  I would say that the days of the high performance air cooled ducati motors are coming to a close within the next  year or two.

as Ducatiz said, it has more to do with the legalities involved with motor (emissions and noise) than with what people would actually want to ride. aircooled may very well become the new 2-stroke...

[Slim1899]

Here's a Monster 796 that a local dealer converted to a SS using D16RR fairings. Very cool looking IMO.

I like that 

[Duck-Stew]

with the spy shots of what appears to be a liquid cooled hyper floating around the internet, and the statement about moving away from desmo valves for  the "entry level bikes" (what could that mean other than monsters?)  I would say that the days of the high performance air cooled ducati motors are coming to a close within the next  year or two.

as Ducatiz said, it has more to do with the legalities involved with motor (emissions and noise) than with what people would actually want to ride. aircooled may very well become the new 2-stroke...

+1

[ducatiz]

with the spy shots of what appears to be a liquid cooled hyper floating around the internet, and the statement about moving away from desmo valves for  the "entry level bikes" (what could that mean other than monsters?)  I would say that the days of the high performance air cooled ducati motors are coming to a close within the next  year or two.

as Ducatiz said, it has more to do with the legalities involved with motor (emissions and noise) than with what people would actually want to ride. aircooled may very well become the new 2-stroke...

i'll eat my shoe if they come out with a non-desmo head on a DUCATI branded bike.  I could see them buying another marque (Morini or Malaguti) and doing it and using the other label as way to move away from the L twin/desmo design, but they've invested so much in the DESMO branding, it would be idiocy to do that.

Moreover, there is no reason to.  With modern belts, valve adjust intervals have extended significantly and there isn't that much more involved cost wise to make a desmo vs springer head. 

However, I would not be surprised at all if they picked up a smaller label and started churning out singles and parallels with spring heads.  Why not?

[Raux]

maybe the aircooled sticks around for the sub/1000 range bikes.
but non-desmo... BLEH... Audi needs  to squash that shit.

that Italian guy who cares nothin for tradition is to blame for all this shit.
desmo and trellis frames gone from Ducati is a way to cut manufacturing costs.
it will just take it to a aprilia level where it doesn't have the mystique. sure it will cost more cause manufaturing costs + higher MSRP = money in the bank for those greedy bastards.

[Scoober1103]

Here in Australia (well Queensland anyway) with no real environmental restrictions two-strokes and air-cooled big bore bikes will still be for sale as long as there is a market for them! The manufacturers are the ones pulling the pin on certain models (two-strokes in particular) due to environmental restrictions and pressure from their larger sales markets.

What is sad IMO is looking at the Panigale with its clothes off.........so much crammed into such a small space and part of the soul (trellis frame) is lost all together. Looks like any other till its dressed again! With this in mind I would hope they continue some kind of traditional Trellis framed SBK or re-invent the SS! 

[PhilB]

Here's a question -- do y'all think Ducati should (a) strive to be leading edge, to be the most advanced and competitive and high-performance bikes they can be, or (b) stick to "tradition" and market "lifestyle" and become an Italian Harley?  You can probably tell by the wording of the question what my opinion is.  The role of quirky traditional Italian bike is already filled by Moto Guzzi, and they are and will ever be a tiny niche product.

Desmos are a trademark Ducati feature, and have some advantages over spring valves (but also some disadvantages).  Not all Ducatis have been Desmos.  My opinion on that is that Ducati should make the most of those advantages rather than reverting to spring valves.  But if they can develop a technology that is better than either (say, be the first to bring pneumatic valve actuation to a production bike), then they should move forward rather than stick to "tradition" for no other reason than it is tradition.

Likewise with the frame.  The trellis frame has plusses and minuses compared to the aluminum twin-spar that others use, and I'm fine with them (again) maximizing the benefits rather than switching to be the same as everyone else, for as long as they can stay competitive that way.  But at the leading edge of performance, the trellis is up against its maximum potential.  I would MUCH rather that Ducati, for the highest performance bikes, make the effort to stay competitive, rather than accept a lesser ability and become a second-rate performance bike.  I was very disappointed when the MotoGP effort gave up on the monocoque and settled for copying the rest (and then having to play catch-up with a tech that is new to them but already very well developed by the others).  At least they did get it well enough developed to put it in a production bike, so they can continue to develop it now in WSB.  Maybe they will learn enough there to bring it back up to MotoGP at some point.

The way forward for Ducati should be forward.

PhilB

[triangleforge]

i'll eat my shoe if they come out with a non-desmo head on a DUCATI branded bike.  I could see them buying another marque (Morini or Malaguti) and doing it and using the other label as way to move away from the L twin/desmo design, but they've invested so much in the DESMO branding, it would be idiocy to do that.

Moreover, there is no reason to.  With modern belts, valve adjust intervals have extended significantly and there isn't that much more involved cost wise to make a desmo vs springer head. 

However, I would not be surprised at all if they picked up a smaller label and started churning out singles and parallels with spring heads.  Why not?

The other reason they might move away from desmo on the "entry" bikes is the widespread (and IMHO, inaccurate) perception that it's expensive and fiddly to maintain. I was in the Victory dealer the other day picking up an oil change kit (?) for my brother in law (oddly enough, there's one here in semi-rural Arizona but not in LA); as I was handing over $60 for what amounted to an oil filter, some crush washers and some non-synthetic oil, the guy was giving me grief about how expensive it is to do valves on a Duc - which I suppose it could be if I took mine to a dealer. I think Ducati is sensitive to that perception, as evidenced by their marketing push in recent years to call attention to the longer service intervals on the valve train.

I also could imagine some marketing whiz kid pitching the idea as a ladder for aspiring owners: Stretch to buy your first, entry-level Duc, but dream about and move up to a "real" desmo Ducati later.  New ownership & Audi engineers and marketers looking over Bologna's shoulder adds another wild card that we can't quite predict.

Ultimately, though, I agree with you - I think we'd see things like the 90 degree L go before the desmo valvetrain on Ducati-branded bikes - it's just too much of the brand identity, and letting go of it just dilutes the entire brand.

[ducatiz]

Here's a question -- do y'all think Ducati should (a) strive to be leading edge, to be the most advanced and competitive and high-performance bikes they can be, or (b) stick to "tradition" and market "lifestyle" and become an Italian Harley?  You can probably tell by the wording of the question what my opinion is.  The role of quirky traditional Italian bike is already filled by Moto Guzzi, and they are and will ever be a tiny niche product.

~~~Desmos are a trademark Ducati feature, and have some advantages over spring valves (but also some disadvantages).  Not all Ducatis have been Desmos. 

~~~Likewise with the frame. 

PhilB

See my post above:

i'll eat my shoe if they come out with a non-desmo head on a DUCATI branded bike.  I could see them buying another marque (Morini or Malaguti) and doing it and using the other label as way to move away from the L twin/desmo design, but they've invested so much in the DESMO branding, it would be idiocy to do that.

Moreover, there is no reason to.  With modern belts, valve adjust intervals have extended significantly and there isn't that much more involved cost wise to make a desmo vs springer head. 

However, I would not be surprised at all if they picked up a smaller label and started churning out singles and parallels with spring heads.  Why not?

1.  Trellis frames only go back to about the mid 70s.  Dry clutches were not on street bikes until 85.  The last spring head they sold was the GTL -- 78.

The solution "forward" would be a second brand for them to expand their base in.  People who don't care about desmo or L twin or trellis, and it would give them a second face under which to experiment.

The Ducati brand is wound up with desmo and trellis and such.  Pick up one of the demised brands and revive it with and do everything else on that brand.  It could attract lots of people who have no interest in an L twin or desmo.

[PhilB]

The solution "forward" would be a second brand for them to expand their base in.  People who don't care about desmo or L twin or trellis, and it would give them a second face under which to experiment.

The Ducati brand is wound up with desmo and trellis and such.  Pick up one of the demised brands and revive it with and do everything else on that brand.  It could attract lots of people who have no interest in an L twin or desmo.

I disagree.  The Ducati brand is wound up with high performance, high style, high tech, and Italian exoticness.  The man on the street (even your average biker on the street) looks at a Ducati, even a 620 Monster, and thinks "wow, that must be really fast", or "that guy must be rich", or something like that.  He doesn't think about the technical details.

Desmo and trellis contribute to that currently, but changing those to something better/more exotic won't detract from that.  OTOH, getting left behind certainly would tarnish the brand.  If you want a bike that sticks to their "trademark" configuration long past it performing competitively, buy a Guzzi.  I like Guzzis.  I will probably have one at some point.  But they aren't anything like current with regard to performance, and can't be as long as they value tradition over function.  It would be a real shame to see Ducati pigeonhole itself into the same corner.

You sound exactly like some Harley "faithful" who thinks it can't be a Harley if it has water cooling or a new shape or a better engine configuration -- the guys who keep Harley from getting anywhere with anything but traditional cruisers.  Ducati doesn't need a "second brand"; they need to take good care of the brand they have, which has an excellent image these days (despite the plastic tank debacle).  That means (a) keeping the quality high, (b) good customer service and standing behind their products, and (c) keeping up with performance and technology.

PhilB

[JohnEE]

I'm going to leave these here.....


http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/oped/first-ducati-1199-panigale-assembly-line-factory/


http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/oped/ducati-diavel-business-case/

very good reads and they talk about how ducati is moving forward