Cornering and Chicken Strips

[Wonked]

So, my 695 has a lot more lean angle than many other bikes I've owned. Now, I'm not the most naturally talented rider in the world, but I am committed to getting better. Tonight I donned the leathers and took the 695 to a parking lot to really work on some cornering.

I think I'm doing all the right things:

1) Breaking done early
2) Finding the right gear
3) Looking through the turn
4) Delaying the apex
5) Hanging off (chin first, butt last)
6) Rolling on the throttle and accelerating out of the turn

Though I feel like I've made significant progress on cornering - especially after tonight, I still don't think I'm close to knee-dragging territory. I measured my chicken strips after my practice and had 3/4" on the right side, and 1" on the left. I know it is subjective, and I'm not really giving you a lot of information, but is that a reasonable amount? How much further do I have to go before I need to start worrying about enough tread? Also, how much further do I need to go to get the knee down? (I'm 6' by the way). I feel like in order to get my head down low and to the inside of the handlebar, I have to scrunch my body up.

I'm not obsessed with chicken strips or anything, but they are at least some kind of gauge as to how well you're cornering.

BTW, I know it'd be much easier to diagnose if you could see a video. Perhaps I'll take one and add it later.

[mstevens]

Is the goal really to get your knee down, or is the goal to corner better?

By the same token, is the size of chicken strips as important as how quickly you get around the track? Aren't they just a rough guide to how much lean angle is being left on the table? (If that's the case, I'm guessing the answer to your second question is "3/4' on the right and 1' on the left.")

Sure, the fastest riders often put their knees down, but aren't they doing that because otherwise they'll run out of lean angle and won't be able to go faster?

I'm no expert on any of this, just asking.

[Wonked]

I want to be able to put my knee down in a safe way, with a healthy margin for error. It is a goal for me. Of course, with practice I am getting faster through the corners, and pushing the bike further over. Just wondering how far off I am from pushing the bike to it's limit, and the rider to his. ;-)

[somegirl]

Sounds like you might be ready for a track school.

[DarkStaR]

<my.02cents>  It sounds like you are too preoccupied with things that shouldn't matter too much on the street.

Keep in mind that some tire profiles will allow you to drag hard parts before clearing the whole strip.

Just ride, and stop looking at your tires.  It will happen eventually.  Baby Steps.

If you really have to get rid of the strips, and get your knee down ASAP.  Get that done at the track first.

Being in such a rush might cost you in repairs, and cause injuries.   </my.02cents>

[teddy037.2]

Sounds like you might be ready for a track school.

+1 because getting your knee down on the street is just silly  

that said, you still should be able to lean your bike over more than having 1" of strip on a side.

[Wonked]

Thanks all. FWIW, I don't intend to be riding to work dragging knees. Out here in North Georgia, it's actually a reasonable goal on the exquisite mountain roads.

I will keep practicing, and continue to NOT actually be obsessed with dragging knees, and await a track day.

[pwndrew]

I used to practice in the cul-de-sac at the end of my street before they built houses there. I'd just start slow and end up at about 35mph going around it. It's the easiest way to get rid of the chicken strips and pose as an elite track star to all your friends.

[teddy037.2]

  right on.

now, given the assumption that your 695 has the same sort of profile on the rear tire as my 620, you can safely throw the bike over a little bit more than you are already (of course, given that you understand lean angle and corner speed).

I've gotten myself into a couple of corners hot where my thought process was "trust the bike..." and press on the inside bar more in order to get me through.  and, at the time, it was a bit of a pucker moment, but gauging chicken strips alone, I still obviously have some tread left on the side.

since then, I don't pay much attention to it, and just focus on being smooth and controlled through every corner I take, instead of being the 'fastest'  

[Wonked]

Why do many people assume that the desire to improve cornering speed/ability, hang off, and even drag knees where appropriate is some sort of desire to pose? For me, it is just one visible sign my bike is still capable of more than I currently am. The desire to bring that ratio closer to 1, shouldn't be seen as some desire to appear to be some kind of track god, it is simply a desire to be a better rider.

For the record, I expect that even when I do eventually get a knee down, I will still probably have some tread left, as getting a knee down, by definition, means the bike requires less lean angle.

Does anyone know how much lean angle is left with about an inch on either side of the tires? Should I, at this point, if my form were correct, be able to touch a knee down? A real answer to that question is all that I am looking for. If the answer is yes, then I will know that my form is off. If it is No, then I will know that I need to push the bike over a little more.

By the way, thanks everyone for weighing in on this subject. I value the board's collective feedback immensely.

[pwndrew]

Does anyone know how much lean angle is left with about an inch on either side of the tires? Should I, at this point, if my form were correct, be able to touch a knee down? A real answer to that question is all that I am looking for. If the answer is yes, then I will know that my form is off. If it is No, then I will know that I need to push the bike over a little more.

I imagine it would depend on a number of things like type of tire, tire pressure, ride height, etc...

[fasterblkduc]

Why do many people assume that the desire to improve cornering speed/ability, hang off, and even drag knees where appropriate is some sort of desire to pose? For me, it is just one visible sign my bike is still capable of more than I currently am. The desire to bring that ratio closer to 1, shouldn't be seen as some desire to appear to be some kind of track god, it is simply a desire to be a better rider.

For the record, I expect that even when I do eventually get a knee down, I will still probably have some tread left, as getting a knee down, by definition, means the bike requires less lean angle.

Does anyone know how much lean angle is left with about an inch on either side of the tires? Should I, at this point, if my form were correct, be able to touch a knee down? A real answer to that question is all that I am looking for. If the answer is yes, then I will know that my form is off. If it is No, then I will know that I need to push the bike over a little more.

By the way, thanks everyone for weighing in on this subject. I value the board's collective feedback immensely.

The short answer is probably not. If you have that much left on the edges. I see guys go out for their first or second trackday and they use the whole tire and still can't get their knee down. There are several factors to this equation and I'm talking about riders on smaller rear tires like what you are using. I'm assuming you are running a 160 rear? Now for the longer answer
There is no 100% correct answer here, but from what you are describing and the bike you are on, I'm guessing that you have to lean more to get a knee down. Hanging off is crucial to fast cornering. Until you adjust your brains "oh shit" sensor (lean angle), you will have a hard time with the concept. When you are hanging off far enough, you will feel like a monkey. You won't be able to get a knee down until you hang off, and lean far enough.
Now, about those factors. The Monster in stock form is not set up to lean hard, or corner fast. Chances are real strong that you will scrape hard parts before you get your knee down. The bike can be set up to do that but it will take some work. I'm not saying that it can't be done but odds are, you will scrape bits first. If you are really tall, you might actually scrape your knee first but it's going to be hard to figure this out on the street. That brings me to my next point. If you really want to improve your cornering skills, do a trackday. One trackday is worth ten years of street riding. Most trackday organizations will have an intro program where you can follow instructors around the track and ask questions about your form. It's really hard to corner hard, work on your form, carry speed, etc. on the street. For you to corner hard enough to scrape your knee, you are not riding safe for street conditions. Also, it's nearly impossible to give you advice on your form without seeing pictures or video. I've helped a lot of newer riders on the track with their form, but it's because I can watch them from the corners or follow them on a trackday.

I'll attach a photo of a guy I race against. He's tall and he's on a short bike. I call him Xaus (WSBK racer who has a similar style), because of how he hangs off. I'm attaching this link to show you what you would likely have to do to scrape your knee with your bike in stock form. Notice that he is hanging waaaaay off and the bike is more upright. I'm faster than him through all of the turns but it sure is fun to chase him down because this is the view I get. (until I pass him) 
http://momentumphoto.net/events/cra/08jun/220/images/CRA08_BIR06_0229.jpg

EDIT: ok that picture won't attach so just click the link...I can't get pics to attach

 If you look at photos of me on my monster in the same turn, I am leaned over way more because I don't have his reach. His bike is more upright than me therefore he has more contact patch. Dragging your knee is not necessary to go faster or have proper form but it will indirectly do just that. The reason is that you use it as a gauge. It becomes muscle memory like closing your eyes and touching your nose. Once you touch your knee down and get comfortable with it, you then reset your brain's lean sensor and actually feel how far you are over. You know when your knee is down how much farther you can go based on that muscle memory. Most of us racers just touch down our knee then we pick it up a little because pucks are expensive to wear out!

[CDawg]

I'm not obsessed with chicken strips or anything, but they are at least some kind of gauge as to how well you're cornering.

I don't think so.  There are too may variable to that to be a good measure.  For a given corner, you speed, rate of lean, amount of hanging-off, brake points, throttle opening, etc...all affect "chicken stripe"

[univox]

You're putting too much thought into chicken strips/dragging knee, it's a recipe for disaster.

Worry about being smooth and maintaining proper form, everything else is just an empty meaningless benchmark.

[VeryMetal]

Do what I do. Use some WD40 and spray all over both tires paying special attention to the rear. This will lessen the traction and cause you to effortlessly 'slide' around corners, which is the fastest and coolest way to do it.

Ok, don't do that. It's silly.

My 2 cents - If you have no unused surface of your tire and you are mainly street riding, chances are you are riding way too hard for the street. That's already been pointed out. That said, it is a goal of many riders to eliminate 'chicken strips' and 'get a knee down'. There's nothing wrong with wanting to do that. It will come with time. Saying don't bother trying to get your knee down to a motorcyclist is like saying don't do wheelies.

I would just go to the track and ride, don't worry too much about technique, just get a feel for things and learn how to 'appropriately' trust your bike and your own abilities and it will all come with time. Take a course when you feel ready, this will help with the 'trust' thing.

I know guys that can go round in tight circles with their knee scraping with one hand off the bike all day long, it sure is pretty impressive. At least to me. But then again most of these guys are on R6's or R1's, which are arguably a little more appropriate bikes for this kind of riding.