No start

[JoshuaCJCohen]

I did some testing last night but as it was after dark and I was using a flashlight while holding the multimeter and balancing the gas tank, it wasn't very useful.  I'm going to draft the wife this afternoon and try again.

I was thinking about removing the gas tank, as recommended in many videos, and then realized I have no idea where the fuel pump is and didn't want to screw myself inadvertently by removing the gas tank (with fuel pumps inside?) so I started looking for diagrams of the fuel system. 

What I found was this thread.

http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=54443.0

and I'm wondering if there isn't a better way to go about this whole thing.  Manual?  Vacuum pump?  Is the picture in the third post on page one the fuel pump? 

Thanks,
Josh

[ducpainter]

Josh,

You have a FI bike. The pump is electric and is located inside the tank. You can use a piece of wood to prop the tank up high enough to do your testing.

[JoshuaCJCohen]

Can someone tell me which fuse controls the fuel pump relay or point me to a diagram? I just found the two fuses (5 and 20 respectively) on the right side of the bike opposite the fuel pump relay which is on the left. I tried tracing the wires but the bundle leaves the relay and runs into a large bundle just forward of the battery and I can't tell where it comes out.

Thanks,
Josh

[JoshuaCJCohen]

Relays can be tested.  Your relay is a standard 4 prong.  Battery positive to terminal 30.  Terminal 86 to battery ground.  When 12 volts is applied to terminal 85 12 volts should be present at 87, which would go to your fuel pump.  Alternative (easier and faster) is take a jumper wire and jump from terminal 30 to terminal 87.  Turn key on.  Pump now hums?  Bad relay.  No hum?  Check for voltage at terminal 30 (key on). No voltage at 30?  Bad fuse or wiring problem between fuse and relay.  Power at 30?  Take meter or test light and hook up to 85.  Turn key on.  There should be power at 85.  If not, wiring problem between the socket and the computer or (highly unlikely) bad computer.

Did lots of testing but I'm not sure I did it right.  First of all, I took the relay off to get to the terminals.  Some of the instructions above seem to indicate I need to leave the relay on, "Power at 30?  Take meter or test light and hook up to 85.  Turn key on.  There should be power at 85." But if the relay is off how is the power getting from T30 to T85? 

Placed a wire from T85 to T87 and there was no hum of the fuel pump.  I tried to take a reading from T85 at this point but I got no needle movement.  But when I removed the wire between T85 and T87 and tested I saw a 2 or 3V response.  See data below.

My primitive understanding of this relay is power comes in T30, goes through relay to T85 which then sends it to T87 to the Fuel Pump.  T86 is the ground for all. 

Raw results with relay off.

R = Red, B = Black, using analog multimeter set to 50VDC.

R-30, B-86 0V
R-30, B-Engine Block = @15V
R-30, B-87 = @15V
R-30, B-85 = @12V
R-85, B-87 = @2 or 3V
R-85, B-86 = Negative V
R-85, B-30 = Negative V

While I had R-30, B-87 I was watching 15V then I turned off the key and the needle stayed at 15V.  I checked with B-Engine Block and it was also reading 15V.  I checked B-85 and when I turned the key off it actually went up to about 15V.

So it appears that it is pulling power from T30 to T85 and T87 when the key is not on (and relay is on).  Am I doing something wrong?  I don't think power should be moving when the key is off and, if so, would this account for my battery drain?  What the hell is going on?

Thanks,
Josh

[JoshuaCJCohen]

New data.  On the off chance something fixed itself I put the relay back on and turned the key praying I would hear the fuel pumps engage.  Of course that didn't happen but I heard a metallic "click" I haven't heard before as the tank is raised and I have access to the battery tray.

After kneeling by both sides of the bike and pressing my hear to the battery, ECU (at least I assume it is the ECU, silver box mounted just forward of the battery tray) and relay, whenever I turn the key on the clicking sound comes from the relay.  It sounds like a fuse tripping.  I assume it isn't supposed to make that noise but I'll let the experts lead me to water.

Thanks,
Josh

No longer the hopeful man I was five minutes ago.  Listening for other strange noises while turning the key I heard the exact same pinking sound coming from the relay next to the long fuse box under the seat.  So I guess that noise is normal when applying power and I'm back to square one.


If I wanted to just replace the relay and see if that does the trick, is this the right part?

http://www.napaonline.com/Catalog/CatalogItemDetail.aspx?R=ECHAR614_0365805335

I just called the motorcycle shop and they said they have one in for about $45.  I asked the part number and they gave me 28740403A.

Does it matter if I use the NAPA one or does it need to be the Ducati?

[ducpainter]

If you look at the thread at the top of the page there is a post with a list of replacement relays.

[JoshuaCJCohen]

Let me start by stating the obvious.  I am a complete newb at trouble shooting.  I apologize for wasting your time.  And thank you for not delivering the flaming spray I so clearly deserve.  Tomorrow I will properly load and test the relay and stop testing the relay housing.  Did I mention I was a newb? 

As a consequence of some much needed research Howie's instructions suddenly make sense.

Thanks in advance,
Josh

[ducpainter]

Not to worry...

we're here to help.

That relay is nothing special if it turns out to be bad. Autozone, or any parts store should have an economical replacement.

[Howie]

Did lots of testing but I'm not sure I did it right.  First of all, I took the relay off to get to the terminals.  Some of the instructions above seem to indicate I need to leave the relay on, "Power at 30?  Take meter or test light and hook up to 85.  Turn key on.  There should be power at 85." But if the relay is off how is the power getting from T30 to T85? 

Placed a wire from T85 to T87 and there was no hum of the fuel pump.  I tried to take a reading from T85 at this point but I got no needle movement.  But when I removed the wire between T85 and T87 and tested I saw a 2 or 3V response.  See data below.

My primitive understanding of this relay is power comes in T30, goes through relay to T85 which then sends it to T87 to the Fuel Pump.  T86 is the ground for all. 

Raw results with relay off.

R = Red, B = Black, using analog multimeter set to 50VDC.

R-30, B-86 0V
R-30, B-Engine Block = @15V
R-30, B-87 = @15V
R-30, B-85 = @12V
R-85, B-87 = @2 or 3V
R-85, B-86 = Negative V
R-85, B-30 = Negative V

While I had R-30, B-87 I was watching 15V then I turned off the key and the needle stayed at 15V.  I checked with B-Engine Block and it was also reading 15V.  I checked B-85 and when I turned the key off it actually went up to about 15V.

So it appears that it is pulling power from T30 to T85 and T87 when the key is not on (and relay is on).  Am I doing something wrong?  I don't think power should be moving when the key is off and, if so, would this account for my battery drain?  What the hell is going on?

Thanks,
Josh

Josh, relay out for the tests, sorry for the confusion.  I gave you a link for an '01 FI Monster owner's manual, wiring and fuses the same as your '00.  Here it is again  http://www.ducatiusa.com/services/maintenance/index.do  fuses are in there too.  The fuel pump runs off the 20 amp fuse in #6 position.


Now that we know what your bike is this can save you some time:

Lift tank.  If it is full some fuel will leak out and the tank should be supported by means other than the prop rod to take pressure off the hinge.
 
Remove electrical connector on the bottom of the tank.

Connect a test light or your volt meter between the brown/white wire (terminal 1 if marked).   

When you turn the key on voltage should be there .  If so, the pump is getting power, relay, etc are all good.  Your problem is now either the low fuel sending unit or the pump.  The wire to the pump runs through the sending unit and is a common failure. 

[ducpainter]

howie...if the relay is out how can you test if the relay is sending power to the 85 terminal?

[JoshuaCJCohen]

Howie,
Removed electrical connector and the red cap that makes the holes the size of pins.  Just to be clear, I'm simply touching the leads from the multimeter to the male and female ends of terminal 1.  When I do that there is no voltage (I reinstalled the relay first).  I checked all four terminals and there was no voltage on any of them.

I think the next step is to check the relay under power and see what resistance it has, right?  I still don't know if the relay is any good.

Thanks,
Josh

[ducpainter]

Just test the sender connector on the chassis side...terminal 1 and 2 or brn/w and black.

That will tell if the relay is sending power to the connector. If it is then you have a problem with the sending unit or the pump as howie said.

If not then it's the relay or wiring.

[JoshuaCJCohen]

Test sets

1) Relay in.  4 Terminal connector unhooked.  Red to Sender Side, Black to Receiver side.  No reading on multimeter on any of the four terminals. I think I learned a valuable lesson about proper grounding.

2) Relay in.  4 Terminal connector unhooked.  Red to Sender side, black to battery ground.  Reading on Terminal #3 (Black/Blue wire), 12V.  Other three terminals are zero reading.
3) Relay out.  Jump wire from T30 to T87. Red to 4 terminal sender, black to battery ground.  Reading on Terminal #1 and #3, 12V each.  No reading on #2 and #4.

4) Relay out testing.  Jump wires from battery to relay T30 and T86.  Multimeter red to T87 and ground. No reading. 
5) Relay out testing.  Jump wires from battery to relay T85 and T86.  Multimeter red to T87 and ground. No reading.

The relay did "click" when I applied power to T30 and T86.  But I still didn't get any reading from T85 or T87. 

When I inadvertently contacted both T85 and T87a there was an audible tone.  I tried not to do that too often.

6) Relay out.  Jump wire from T30 to T87.  4 Terminal connector complete.  (I believe at this point if the only issue was the relay the jump wire would be simulating a working relay).  No fuel pump priming when key turned.  Engine turned over but did not catch.  (Fuel tank was still in the up position so if there is a position switch or detection that might have interfered.

What next?

Josh

Found this color picture of the electrical scheme.  As best I can tell with the above results is there is a problem with the Br/W wire.

http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6123/5974525358_5c086e5afd_o.jpg

[Howie]

Josh, over the interwebs it is difficult for us to follow each other or for me to know if you are doing things correctly.  Anyway, the blue/black wire is for the low fuel light, not the fuel pump.  Your only concern at that connector is that brown/black.  Going back to dp's earlier suggestion, go to the store and buy a new relay.  They are cheap.  Worth a try.  Let us know what happens.  When I have more time I will get back to you.

Another alternative is get the bike to a good shop.  Sometimes it is worth it.  It took me about 30 years to learn that.

[JoshuaCJCohen]

Understand the brown/white is the wire of concern.  When I jumped T30 to T87 in the relay housing that simulated the relay functionality, right?  And if my problem was just the relay that would have provided power all the way to the pumps so either I did that part wrong or I have an issue somewhere else.  I'll try to get a new relay today.  I'm in Okinawa, Japan so it's not as easy as popping down to the local NAPA.

Josh