OFFICIAL: Closed Loop ECU mods

[DarkMonster620]

~~~ Does this mean the learned parameters of the former closed loop system take time to be overidden?

Could be . . .

[koko64]

The Smartmoto units, despite looking so simple, are doing more than I thought. By that, I mean more than just telling the ECU that the O2 sensors are there. They must be influencing AFR or at least allowing the PCV to do its work.

[DarkMonster620]

The Smartmoto units, ... telling the ECU that the O2 sensors are there. They must be influencing AFR or at least allowing the PCV to do its work.

As per your seat of the pants dyno report, it seems to be that way or at least, the engine is "tuning itself"

[koko64]

I'll run the Hellenic Eliminators and monitor the plugs, fuel economy and power characteristics.
If Im unhappy I can go back to the O2 sensors and PC dual channel Optimizers until I get the beastie on a dyno. Only thing with running optimized closed loop and O2 sensors, is that while giving vivid acceleration, it also has that annoying ECU intrusion interfering with my throttle control.

[DarkMonster620]

Well, I'll need to purchase a set for an 848 that had the wiring coming of the sensor chewed by squirrels or rats or something . . guy doesn't want a new sensor

[koko64]

Tested again tonight and ran stronger with better part throttle response.. Maybe the ECU does take time to stabilize the AFR.

[koko64]

Well, I'll need to purchase a set for an 848 that had the wiring coming of the sensor chewed by squirrels or rats or something . . guy doesn't want a new sensor

Their site says can be used to replace a bad O2 sensor.

[DarkMonster620]

that's the idea . . .

[Howie]

Might have fuel block learn like a car.

[koko64]

I was wondering about that. The car guys talk of cars settling into new tunes. I just wondered how it could be possible with the O2 sensors removed (and less sensors overall).

[koko64]

I can report that the Smartmoto O2 eliminators and PCV are working better and better over time or number of start ups (not sure which). Bike is getting stronger in the sub 4000 rpm range with a smoothness akin to very well tuned FCRs. I dont have the theoretical knowledge to explain it but can only surmise that the PCV&DP ECU are taking over that rpm range via the action of the Smartmoto units. The Smartmoto units have performed the best (so far!) out of the PC dual channel Optimizers, PC individual Optimizers and Bazzaz O2 Eliminators. The Bazzaz O2 Eliminators worked well but got
" found out " by the ECU after about an hours riding each time I tested them.
I got another pair to put in the tool kit. Very cool little jiggers.

[DarkMonster620]

NOT available for 848 . .. 

Nice to know it's working out

[koko64]

Update.
I had to go back to using the O2 Sensors with the PC Dual Channel Optimizers.

After a long ride with the SmartMoto O2 Eliminators the Check Engine light came on and after scrolling through found no specific error, just like with the Bazzaz Eliminators. The Light does not come on with the PC Optimizers, either Dual Channel or twin individual units. With both the Bazzaz and Smartmoto Eliminators, it's as if the ECU knows something is up but doesn't know exactly what it is. They're onto us!

Theory (possible bullshit) time.
Maybe, it's because all seems ok when I am just using Power Commander devices, but as soon as I mix and match, maybe the ECU picks up a not so perfect interface of devices. That's my uneducated guess based on the fact I am using a PCV. Or, maybe (as Ung put's it), the ECU cant detect little white lies (Optimizers), but cant help but detect big fat lies (O2 Eliminators). I have yet to try these units on a bike with no PCV or PCIII, so just a theory.

Maybe the only way to really go undetected with removing the O2 sensors is to reflash the ECU ala Rexxer as Carlos has suggested. Don't lie to the ECU, just brainwash it!

I've emailed a couple of local tuners about this stuff and will let you know what they think. If anyone local with a Seimens ECU, (but no PCV or PCIII), wants to try some O2 eliminators I'm happy to let you borrow them to test.

[koko64]

Edited.

I received responses of Brad (bikeboy) and Todd (Intake Express) on this issue, two accomplished and expert EFI tuners down here. To be fair, I will not quote them, but give a very brief overview of their responses. It appears a reflash is still the best way to circumvent the minefield that is eliminating Vs deceiving the closed loop system. I will give more detail via PM if anyone wants to know.

On the other hand, my PCV Dual Channel Optimizer works ok, as did the two individual PC units. But we know that ok not good enough for some!

Carlos Darkmonster has advocated the reflash for a long time, but I wanted to learn first hand for myself how these systems work in relation to the incumbent ECU. Not the high end theory (way beyond my area of education), but the practical tuning applications. I am an older carb guy and this was an important process for me. A generational transition so to speak.

Iirc  earlier in this thread CDawg put forward the theory that the ECU checks in on the O2 sensors at a given interval. If this is true, then after a given period of time (or miles?), the ECU will not receive the appropriate response to it's signal and throw a code/engine check light. Makes sense to me. My experience with both the Bazzaz and SmartMoto Eliminators, when tested on a regular route makes sense of that theory. They both worked fine until "found out". The O2 Optimizers in line with the O2 sensors were not detected.

One thing such eliminator devices are potentially useful for is as a spare in case an O2 sensor craps itself on a ride. But like a lightweight spare tyre, not for the long term. May be necessary to pull over, turn off the motor wait, and then resume until you get home.

Appears a reflash is on the agenda down the track.

Cheers.

[DarkMonster620]

I received responses of Brad (bikeboy) and Todd (Intake Express) on this issue, it appears a reflash is the best way to go to circumvent the minefield that is eliminating Vs deceiving the closed loop system.

Carlos Darkmonster has advocated the reflash for a long time, but I had to learn first hand for myself how these systems work. Not the high end theory (way beyond my area of education), but the practical tuning applications. I am an older carb guy and this was an important process for me. A generational transition so to speak.

Iirc someone earlier in this thread put forward the theory that the ECU checks in on the O2 sensors at a given interval. If this is true, then after a given period of time (or miles?), the ECU will not receive the appropriate response to it's signal and throw a code/engine check light. Makes sense to me.

One thing such devices are potentially useful for is as a spare in case the O2 sensor craps itself on a ride. But like a lightweight spare tyre, but not for the long term. May be necessary to pull over, turn off the motor wait and then resume until you get home.

Appears a reflash is on the agenda down the track.

Cheers.

I need to get a new ECU or very reliable used 5AM/2 to reflash, I will delete IMMO and ask for DP Map for my 620 . . . with maybe, maybe 500rpm overrun