Please read this thread http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?board=28.0 then sign the following petition. If you leave a comment, IMO, "loud pipes save lives" will not work.
http://www.petitiononline.com/ccmsny/petition.html (http://www.petitiononline.com/ccmsny/petition.html)
Thanks.
the thing to keep in mind that the AMA is hugely argueing against NYC in regards to this is that the same restrictions on the automotive industry are not being implemented...so a Civic with a fart can won't get a ticket while your Duc with Zard or Termi's will for example...
Signed.
petitions from folks outside of NY are not going to have nearly the same weight as the local guys calling their representatives.
And tread lightly...almost all our aftermarket stuff is illegal. Need to find some good arguments for why the City shouldn't fine people for illegal pipes.
Good luck, NYC folk.
Maybe we should all send an email to the council members as potential tourist dollars that would be lost. That might be the only way non-locals would have an impact.
Also, in the linked thread there are lots of good arguments why this is a bad law - definitely worth a read.
get the manufacturers of the aftermarket exhaust on board.
despite the fact that most aftermarket is for "off-road" use only, they must be aware of how big a hit they will take if no one buys their goods anymore.
Quote from: Statler on December 31, 2008, 07:19:23 AM
petitions from folks outside of NY are not going to have nearly the same weight as the local guys calling their representatives.
And tread lightly...almost all our aftermarket stuff is illegal. Need to find some good arguments for why the City shouldn't fine people for illegal pipes.
Good luck, NYC folk.
Thanks for the input, Chris.
This particular petition only asks for a name and the e mail, so home is not important. I agree this petition is not powerful, but every little bit helps. There is a local letter writing campaign that I have been pushing on three boards.
The arguments I have been pushing are:
Discrimination, since loud exhaust on a car or truck is a "fix it" ticket.
Punishment on par with DWUIA is extreme.
A reasonable law already exists, 80 db.
EPA markings are often not visible.
There are legal bikes without EPA markings on the mufflers including vintage bikes.
As I said before, a "loud pipes save lives" argument is not a good idea.
Quote from: herm on December 31, 2008, 08:01:53 AM
get the manufacturers of the aftermarket exhaust on board.
despite the fact that most aftermarket is for "off-road" use only, they must be aware of how big a hit they will take if no one buys their goods anymore.
Or set themselves up for a huge liability hit. I'd expect them to lay low.
Quote from: howie on December 31, 2008, 08:04:23 AM
Thanks for the input, Chris.
This particular petition only asks for a name and the e mail, so home is not important. I agree this petition is not powerful, but every little bit helps. There is a local letter writing campaign that I have been pushing on three boards.
The arguments I have been pushing are:
Discrimination, since loud exhaust on a car or truck is a "fix it" ticket.
Punishment on par with DWUIA is extreme.
A reasonable law already exists, 80 db.
EPA markings are often not visible.
There are legal bikes without EPA markings on the mufflers including vintage bikes.
As I said before, a "loud pipes save lives" argument is not a good idea.
This is all very good stuff. Good job, Howie.
NYC is also concerned with revenue from the stock market, tourists, etc, not the financial well being of a few aftermarket manufacturers and retailers.
what is really stupid is this LAW will only ENCOURAGE people to "core" their pipes which are louder than any aftermarket exhaust, bc they will have the EPA mark on them.
Quote from: sbrguy on December 31, 2008, 10:06:19 AM
the issue is if you don't have teh "stock" exhuast you are screwed. meaning you could have a completely legal honda exhuast bc it kills dbs just as well as a ducati exhaust but costs half an you would get towed.
in other words it "forces" you to buy the manufacturer of your BIKE ONLY and even if there was a street legal aftermarket exhaust, it would be 'ILLEGAL', you would comply with the db requirements but still get a ticket.
that is what is totally bogus about the law. its poorly written, poorly thought out, and basically a piece of crap legislation that was rubber stamped. these officials should be thrown out of office for stupidity and fired.
is there an online cite for the actual bill?
is there an online cite for the actual bill?
[/quote]
http://webdocs.nyccouncil.info/attachments/86212.htm (http://webdocs.nyccouncil.info/attachments/86212.htm)
check out the part where it states that the EPA label "an exhaust muffler bearing the federal EPA-required label applicable to the motorcycle's model year" if you read this it means you "have to" get the year muffler for your bike and no other year will be good.
that is bogus
Quote from: sbrguy on December 31, 2008, 10:22:33 AM
is there an online cite for the actual bill?
http://webdocs.nyccouncil.info/attachments/86212.htm (http://webdocs.nyccouncil.info/attachments/86212.htm)
check out the part where it states that the EPA label "an exhaust muffler bearing the federal EPA-required label applicable to the motorcycle's model year" if you read this it means you "have to" get the year muffler for your bike and no other year will be good.
that is bogus
was just coming to say I found the committee report from this month.....and here it is. ;D
interesting reading. I think the unjust penalty approach is going to be the best bet. That and showing that the application is going to be much more difficult than envisioned and the proposed solution does not directly address the problem...ie: people complain about loud bikes, not bikes lacking the EPA sticker...and that there is not a close enough correlation between the two.
Certainly a wake up call. NYC non-riding residents have decided to get rid of loud pipes in the city.
Yeah, it's a pretty unfair law, particularly considering there are existing laws on the books. It focuses on only motorcycles rather than all motor vehicles (like those cars with the cheap-ass, but loud exhausts).
Did you catch the bit below--> They can seize the bikes?!? It's not just a hefty ticket? Talk about punitive. In fact, it sounds like they can give you a ticket on the spot and seize the bike. And why does consumer affairs need to be involved in enforcement?
<snip>
Under the proposed law, the departments of police, environmental protection, consumer affairs, or transportation could, upon the issuance of a summons or notice of violation, seize the motorcycle or straight pipe in accordance with rules promulgated by the police commissioner and deliver the bike or pipe into police department custody. Upon such seizure written notice would be given, where possible, of the procedure for redemption of the motorcycle or straight pipe and of the procedures regarding the required post-seizure hearing to the persons and/or addresses as delineated in the proposed law. The environmental control board must hold a post-seizure hearing to adjudicate the underlying violation within five business days, and must render a decision within five business days after the conclusion of the hearing. If the environmental control board determines that there has been no violation, the motorcycle or straight pipe must be released immediately to the owner. If the owner does not claim the motorcycle within twenty business days after a notice of a determination of no violation has been mailed, however, the motorcycle will be deemed abandoned, and shall be disposed of by the police department pursuant to the state's vehicle and traffic law. Similarly, if the owner does not claim a seized straight pipe within the same time frame, the police department will destroy or dispose of said pipe.<snip>
Just a little background.
Council member Gerson tried, about 20 years ago unsuccessfully, to pass legislature banning all motorcycles from the West Village. In 2006 he presented this bill in 2006. It was tabled until just a few weeks ago and tabled again. The bill is now up for a vote again. There has also been a two year period of motorcycle checkpoints where riders have been targeted at checkpoints. Bikes have been trucked away for minor paperwork violations and expired inspection stickers by the hundreds. NYC has also been in violation of Federal law for ticketing motorcycles using HOV lanes.
This is the result of a minority pissing off a majority, it's not fair, but will probably spread to other states.
Democracy is akin to 3 wolves and a sheep sitting down to discuss whats for dinner.
they can tow the bikes bc "people" don't want to do their job CORRECTLY and carry around a DB meter and make you on teh spot prove your bike passes or not, why?
because that would make people actually HAVE TO do THEIR JOB and actually follow the law. and as we well know nobody wants to do their job correctly. so instead "idiot" laws are put in place.
its a poorly written law, written by incompetant politicians.
they should put a DB meter on crying babies in public and impound the kids when they cry too much. guarantee they are above 80db. and i'm not really joking either. crying babies are just as annoying and disruptive as a 100db motorcycle passing by for a few seconds or minutes.
the majority is not always right by a long stretch.
Quote from: sbrguy on December 31, 2008, 11:54:19 AM
they can tow the bikes bc "people" don't want to do their job CORRECTLY and carry around a DB meter and make you on teh spot prove your bike passes or not, why?
because that would make people actually HAVE TO do THEIR JOB and actually follow the law. and as we well know nobody wants to do their job correctly. so instead "idiot" laws are put in place.
its a poorly written law, written by incompetant politicians.
they should put a DB meter on crying babies in public and impound the kids when they cry too much. guarantee they are above 80db. and i'm not really joking either. crying babies are just as annoying and disruptive as a 100db motorcycle passing by for a few seconds or minutes.
the majority is not always right by a long stretch.
ok...sbrguy voted off the lobbying team for this project. ;D
Their argument isn't that the cops can't or won't use sound meters, it's that people are getting pissed about loud bikes and when they call the cops the bike is already gone. I agree it's written badly, but it's written to keep loud bikes out of NYC and it's proposing to do it in a rather draconian way. Any arguments that it should be ok for bikes to be louder than 80 db is going to fail miserably.
the environmental impact of switching from a cage to a motorcycle is huge, especially in ultra congested areas. NYC seems to be cutting off their nose to spite their face as draconian anti-moto laws will result in more cars, more pollution and more honking horns.
Quote from: redxblack on December 31, 2008, 12:24:45 PM
the environmental impact of switching from a cage to a motorcycle is huge, especially in ultra congested areas. NYC seems to be cutting off their nose to spite their face as draconian anti-moto laws will result in more cars, more pollution and more honking horns.
No sure that's true. Moto folks should be cautious about overselling the green aspect of motorcycling. Motorcycles, for all that they get good gas mileage, are pretty dirty and not-that-green machines, particularly when you change out the exhaust and run sport tires. They are unnecessarily overpowered, have dirty emissions, go through more tires and more consumables, are less rigidly regulated and are exempt from many requirements, and result in a butt load of health care costs. Sure, they're a better alternative to cars, but they're not the end-all and be all. And I doubt that there is a large number of people in NYC who have a moto and no car, but who will go out and buy a car if the law passes.
That said, your argument has emotional appeal. Folks should use it. [thumbsup]
When the law is written to include seizure of any car in a parking lot or on the street with an aftermarket exhaust (and enforced accordingly), then it'll be fair. Someone should amend the bill to change the definition from motorcycle to any motor vehicle. That'll get you all the votes you need to defeat the bill.
In related news...Oakland, CA police started putting louder exhaust on their motos so they can be heard better.
So much for the PRK sucking, huh! ;D
Quote from: Triple J on December 31, 2008, 12:37:23 PM
In related news...Oakland, CA police started putting louder exhaust on their motos so they can be heard better over the gunshots and the Bub Rub whistle tips (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EhSC6YKXm3U).
Fixed. ;D
Quote from: Spidey on December 31, 2008, 12:40:11 PM
Fixed. ;D
bwahaha! [laugh] I had forgotten about those whistle tip things. They were just coming out when I lived there a few years ago. Classic. [clap]
Very interesting topic. I'm interested to see how it ends up.
I think the inequallity of the bill is a good arguing point. If it applied to all vehicles I could see it as being monderately fair but even then it's kind of an unfair bill.
I don't like the whole punishment w/o proof part of it either. As has already been stated, you can have the EPA sticker and still be too loud by tampering w/ the insides so their method of deciding who is loud and who isn't doesn't quite work. You could also purchase non-stock non-loud pipes that just look better and still meet dB standards. They're not common but they're out there.
Other than those two points I've got nothing right now. Not allowing bikes in the HOV lane already made me think NY sucked for riding already. This has just reinforced that sentiment and makes me determined to leave NY off my cross-country ride that I plan to make someday before I die.
My clutch is louder than my shortened scorpion carbon pipes at idle. Wonder what they would say about that.
a fkin black lamborghini merci passed us by on houston street and we thought the devil himself was riding by it sounded like a beast from HELL
This past monday 2001chromo and I visited 4 NYC motorcycle dealerships to check the bikes for an EPA stamping. 2001chromo and I looked at 69 bikes, and photographed them.
24 of the STOCK bikes DID NOT have a EPA stamping that we could find!! This included laying on the ground sometimes and sticking a camera in obscured places. (imagine a NYC traffic agent laying in the gutter doing this on the street, and possibly knocking the bike over looking for the stamping).
the revised draft of the bill has removed the part of confiscation of motorcycles. Mostly due (I believe) to NYPD refusing to comply as they are ill equipped/trained to transport motorcycles with out damaging them.
Quote from: ToXiK on December 31, 2008, 05:20:59 PM
This past monday 2001chromo and I visited 4 NYC motorcycle dealerships to check the bikes for an EPA stamping. 2001chromo and I looked at 69 bikes, and photographed them.
24 of the STOCK bikes DID NOT have a EPA stamping that we could find!! This included laying on the ground sometimes and sticking a camera in obscured places. (imagine a NYC traffic agent laying in the gutter doing this on the street, and possibly knocking the bike over looking for the stamping).
the revised draft of the bill has removed the part of confiscation of motorcycles. Mostly due (I believe) to NYPD refusing to comply as they are ill equipped/trained to transport motorcycles with out damaging them.
That trip to the dealer info is great for a letter. with the pics. Great job. That's
exactly the type of info that needs to get to the right people. Not disagreeing with them about the noise, but showing that there is NO way to ticket/tow a parked bike that is consistent with actually solving the problem. The bike must be running and decibel checked. The first stock parked motorcycle they tow should end this one...but it'd be real nice to kill this in committee before it gets that far.
n/m
Quote from: That Nice Guy Beck! on December 31, 2008, 06:07:35 PM
the boys are and will always be pricks in nyc
they bust ballss for any litte shit you do over there
just this past week they closed down cielo a very nice nightclub, why? prolly cause they didnt pay the right pigs off
cops in my home town are always looking for a fking handout.
Dude....
it's make the beast with two backsing New Years eve...
my air compressor just shit the sheets...
and you want to get make the beast with two backsing political? [roll]
Weigh your options.
let's keep this one on topic, Beck.
<while typing DP beat me to it>
But seriously...uncool, Man. Why do you have to be that guy?
no...make the beast with two backs that. 24 hours. see you next year.
Okay, I am getting confused here. I posted a thread over on the Triumphrat forum about this topic and there seem to be some guys in favor of these noise limits. [puke] Let me say, I for one am not a huge fan of the extremely loud pipes on some bikes, but that is a personal pref. My question is this: What constitutes a "straight pipe" and what do you consider to be too loud? I have the Carbon Termis sans Db killers and most people tell me it sounds nice and "not loud like those Harley guys". Whats too loud?
Quote from: be350ka on January 01, 2009, 12:48:33 PM
Okay, I am getting confused here. I posted a thread over on the Triumphrat forum about this topic and there seem to be some guys in favor of these noise limits. [puke] Let me say, I for one am not a huge fan of the extremely loud pipes on some bikes, but that is a personal pref. My question is this: What constitutes a "straight pipe" and what do you consider to be too loud? I have the Carbon Termis sans Db killers and most people tell me it sounds nice and "not loud like those Harley guys". Whats too loud?
Too loud is in the ear of the beholder, and sound quality counts too. Legal is another question.
New York State already has an 80 db limit for motos, the same sound level as your Termis with baffles, though I am not sure if the same standard of measurement is used. This law is not in question. This proposed bill is:
http://webdocs.nyccouncil.info/attachments/86212.htm (http://webdocs.nyccouncil.info/attachments/86212.htm)
Quote from: be350ka on January 01, 2009, 12:48:33 PM
Okay, I am getting confused here. I posted a thread over on the Triumphrat forum about this topic and there seem to be some guys in favor of these noise limits. [puke] Let me say, I for one am not a huge fan of the extremely loud pipes on some bikes, but that is a personal pref. My question is this: What constitutes a "straight pipe" and what do you consider to be too loud? I have the Carbon Termis sans Db killers and most people tell me it sounds nice and "not loud like those Harley guys". Whats too loud?
Your pipes are illegal on any public road. The issue here is whether NYC will be able to ticket you (or much worse) while you are parked, versus having to prove your bike violates the sound regs while it's running.
straight pipe definition as used in the proposed law is: "for exhaust pipes manufactured after December 31, 1982, “straight pipe†shall also mean exhaust pipes on a motorcycle that are not equipped with an exhaust muffler bearing the federal EPA required labeling applicable to the motorcycle's model year, as set out in Code of Federal Regulations Title 40, Volume 24, Part 205, Subpart D and Subpart E, and shall also mean exhaust pipes on a motorcycle that is equipped with an exhaust muffler bearing such federal EPA required labeling designating such muffler as designed for use on closed course competition motorcycles only."
So your termis would qualify and any time your bike is parked in NYC you could be subject to very high fines and towing.
I am surprised they have not amended the definition to include pipes which exhaust muffler has had internal material removed, although that would be impossible to determine thus losing their easy target solution.
Their argument isn't that the cops can't or won't use sound meters, it's that people are getting pissed about loud bikes and when they call the cops the bike is already gone. I agree it's written badly, but it's written to keep loud bikes out of NYC and it's proposing to do it in a rather draconian way. Any arguments that it should be ok for bikes to be louder than 80 db is going to fail miserably.
[/quote]
i agree that its "hard" to enforce laws, but if someone calls to complain, then a car can be by in a few minutes and write the ticket as the person pulls away. simple, not perfect but it can be done, you wont' catch everyone but you will catch a lot.
afterall this is sort of like saying "we are going to ticket any car that is parked that has an engine "capable" of going over 55mph because we don't want to have to wait and see if a person speeds." afterall if a car "can go" over 55mph then it would be illegal in some states.
its funny those termi with db killers in them are supposed to be 80db with the db killers in them, so they would 'technically' qualify bc of noise regs but "not qualify" because they may not have an EPA sticker on them. wtf?
i want to get a set of termi db killers for just this reason bc then the "noise" issue would no longer be an issue and the termi pipes would just adjust the tone of the sound then.
the old law says you can't "modify" the stock pipes so they already have that as illegal, but with the EPA sticker law would do no good for cored stock pipes as they are only looking at the sticker
however, all being said, i do agree that sometimes people put on "too loud" of pipes. when the pipes are so loud that you set off car alarms for an entire city block that is a bit much. louder than stock is good, but obnoxiously loud is well "obnoxious". and in all seriousness we all pretty much know where that point is.
NYC has been trying to get rid of motorcycles for years. Anything bigger than 50 cc. You see plenty of scooters getting ignored when they park on the sidewalk, but for a bike, you get reamed.
I feel bad for the bikers in NYC, but is this any surprise?
As far as EPA symbols and stickers, I have heard that some people copy the factory pipe decals and have aluminum ones printed up and stick them to a cool spot on the exhaust. Sounds like it's pretty illegal to me, and I would definitely not recommend doing it...
Quote from: ducatizzzz on January 01, 2009, 06:33:34 PM
As far as EPA symbols and stickers, I have heard that some people copy the factory pipe decals and have aluminum ones printed up and stick them to a cool spot on the exhaust. Sounds like it's pretty illegal to me, and I would definitely not recommend doing it...
[laugh]
Quote from: Statler on December 31, 2008, 06:13:47 PM
let's keep this one on topic, Beck.
<while typing DP beat me to it>
But seriously...uncool, Man. Why do you have to be that guy?
no...make the beast with two backs that. 24 hours. see you next year.
sorry bout that the ADD kicks in, ill go on a rant, i deleted it. happy new year!
Quote from: Statler on January 01, 2009, 07:09:16 PM
[laugh]
(http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/style_emoticons/default/whistlingW.gif)
The law should apply to all motor vehicles *OR* be specific to motorcycles with no muffler, as mentioned the EPA stamp is inconclusive & doesn't actually prove anything. Any of the law talking moto types feel that this is unconstitutional?
it most likely could be proven unconstitutional IF and ONLY if someone is willing to step up and fight the city over it, which means legal fees and time and effort.
The city doesn't lose anything to fight these types of lawsuits, which is why you need someone like the AMA to foot the bill. They make so much money over the fines and most people won't fight a $100 ticket that is going to cost them tens of thousands of dollars to fight.
The city most likely will argue this is a prerogative of its (legitimate) police power, that motorcyclists are not a protected class free from discrimination, that the police have the legal power to pull anyone over for any reason, and so on.
Courts have generally sided with the police on cases like this, unless the rationale for the pull-over is race/gender/etc. They see it as driving is a privilege (it is not a right) and the power to extend that privilege grants the state tons of latitude in enforcing traffic laws.
The best argument is the one you made, and add to it that the time and hassle of being stopped is not minimal. And I am not sure that is a winning argument.
yeah...motorcyclists aren't a protected class...and there are already different sets of rules governing their use...as there needs to be.
If I were there I might do two things...
EPA plate for my own nice bike. (only a approved and stck one to replace something that fell off over time of course...otherwise it would be highly illegal).
Get a shit bike worth nothing that was stock but had no visible EPA marking to set up the case for when they impounded it. I'm in the fortunate(?) position where I could spend the time to follow it through and could have some of my own staff work the case......but I don't live there and don't plan on visiting by bike.
(http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm143/Tarugo996/muppjailbirds.jpg)
oh shit, that's hysterical!
<saved to hard drive>
Thanks for the laugh, Capo. Needed it this evening. [clap] [laugh]
Any NYC locals you REALLY need to step up now. Do you realize what happens if this passes? We're all illegal and other states/areas will follow...
http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=16321.msg305447#msg305447 (http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=16321.msg305447#msg305447)
Or maybe another perspective. I can either take a little time off work (or whatever my busy life has for me today) to do my best to get this bill to not pass or I can't ride my motorcycle "legally" anymore.
NYC riders, what have you done today to not let bill 416 pass?
Quote from: 2001cromo on January 06, 2009, 07:51:50 PM
NYC riders, what have you done today to not let bill 416 pass?
i made voodoo dolls of all the council members and especially Mayor Bloomturd and put bread mold on the crotches.
I was down at my Council Member's office today. I didn't speak to him directly but did speak to someone on his staff. I believe I made headway, he even called Gersen's office and was...um, shall I say somewhat surprised to find out the whole thing was based on the factory embossed EPA certification on the pipe. The Power Point was a great help, fantastic job, ToXiK [thumbsup]. Every little bit helps! See ToXiK's post over in NYMMC
http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=16321.msg306292#msg306292 (http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=16321.msg306292#msg306292)
See ya down at City hall tomorrow, cromo. I do hope to see other DMFrs there too!
Quote from: ducatizzzz on January 06, 2009, 08:04:39 PM
i made voodoo dolls of all the council members and especially Mayor Bloomturd and put bread mold on the crotches.
Thank you ;D
Quote from: ducatizzzz on January 06, 2009, 08:04:39 PM
i made voodoo dolls of all the council members and especially Mayor Bloomturd and put bread mold on the crotches.
You're a good man Charlie Brown!
See you at City hall tomorrow Howie, I'll call you in the am to discuss.
Quote from: 2001cromo on January 06, 2009, 07:51:50 PM
Do you realize what happens if this passes? We're all illegal and other states/areas will follow...
I dunno about that slippery slope assumption but I do feel that the bill should be stopped. Other states haven't adopted the "no bikes in HOV lanes."
Best of luck East Coasters. [thumbsup]
my fingers are crossed for you!
go get 'em guys!
Quote from: erkishhorde on January 07, 2009, 06:56:32 AM
I dunno about that slippery slope assumption but I do feel that the bill should be stopped. Other states haven't adopted the "no bikes in HOV lanes."
Best of luck East Coasters. [thumbsup]
That's not a good comparison -- banning bikes in HOV is forbidden by FedLaw and NYC/NYPD has been taken to court over it -- and they will lose.
Tightening up bike enforcement and rules is another issue. NYC says they are planning to aggressively enforce EPA/DOT rules on bikes -- but not cars. That is the difference here. If they planned to up enforcement on EVERY vehicle (i.e. high fines, towing on the spot, etc) then there would be little argument.
Quote from: ducatizzzz on January 07, 2009, 07:56:08 AM
That's not a good comparison -- banning bikes in HOV is forbidden by FedLaw and NYC/NYPD has been taken to court over it -- and they will lose.
Tightening up bike enforcement and rules is another issue. NYC says they are planning to aggressively enforce EPA/DOT rules on bikes -- but not cars. That is the difference here. If they planned to up enforcement on EVERY vehicle (i.e. high fines, towing on the spot, etc) then there would be little argument.
The other problem is the percentage of of bikes that are legal but will be ticketed.
By our very own ToXic:
http://www.industrialgrrrl.com/temp/ (http://www.industrialgrrrl.com/temp/)
Nice work, hopefully this will get through but I'm not holding my breath.
nice presentation michelle [thumbsup]
Quote from: erkishhorde on January 07, 2009, 06:56:32 AM
I dunno about that slippery slope assumption but I do feel that the bill should be stopped. Other states haven't adopted the "no bikes in HOV lanes."
Best of luck East Coasters. [thumbsup]
The one council member pushing this bill has a history against motorcycles. I believe the EPA stamp idea this time around was based on what Denver did. So yes, you could possible see this happen to a city/town near you in the future.
Quote from: erkishhorde on January 07, 2009, 06:56:32 AM
I dunno about that slippery slope assumption but I do feel that the bill should be stopped. Other states haven't adopted the "no bikes in HOV lanes."
Best of luck East Coasters. [thumbsup]
http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=17450.msg308161#new (http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=17450.msg308161#new)
I'm not going to go back and find my posts but this is what I meant when I said we need to start regulating ourselves before people who have no idea feel compelled to do something. I like a nice exhaust as much as the next person but we have to be a little more reasonable about what we're using on the street and recognize who our choices effect.
Quote from: EvilSteve on January 08, 2009, 08:41:38 PM
I'm not going to go back and find my posts but this is what I meant when I said we need to start regulating ourselves before people who have no idea feel compelled to do something. I like a nice exhaust as much as the next person but we have to be a little more reasonable about what we're using on the street and recognize who our choices effect.
Absolutely true!