Ducati Monster Forum

Loud pipes (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rt-ytACeVM0&feature=player_embedded#normal)

OK, that's funny right there.

That is some pretty funny stuff. I wish I could send this to the 4 guys leaving a local brewery I was at yesterday. All four continuously blipping the throttle with their obnoxious exhaust as they left.

Where do you draw the line through? I am still love'n the sweet sexiness of the sound that comes out of my Leo-Vince's. Yes, they are LOUD, but not obnoxious. They say "quality" not "cherry bomb" and I get a kick out of hitting the throttle and hearing my Duc roar every time I take her for a spin.

I know I'm not the only one who's found it (mildly) amusing to set of car alarms with my exhaust when I'm not even close to the cars.  [evil]

So where do you draw the line?

[moto]

I suspect you'd think that 2am outside your window would not be OK.

I am not the sound police, nor do I play one on tv.  But since you ask, the answer is simple.  It depends.  If you live or ride through a community that enforces a noise ordinance you'd better watch it.  But that's not the real issue.  The problem is that a lot of people (more non-riders than riders) are fed up with open pipes and the noise.  They demand that their town council or equivalent do something about it and then you see laws like NY's "must have the EPA stamped tag on the exhaust" or you get a ticket.  Somehow, I don't see that setting off car alarms is going to make things better down the road.

Out in the open, make as much noise as you want, there's no one there to hear it.  But when others are around a little consideration will go a long way.

I suppose I should have clarified that I am responsible about noise. When I come and go though the neighborhood in the morning and at night I coast through in trying to keep the sound disturbance down. Additionally, I'm not in to the obnoxious disruptions. I do often hear car alarms beep at acknowledging that they are picking up on the vibrations, but it's just one of those little things that makes you go "hey that's cool!".

I don't want to aggravate anyone - but I do like it when someone pulls up and nods in appreciation of my Monster because she sounds so sweet. The first day out, we were heading to a park to take some pics and a guy on another bike with his girlfriend on the back pulled up a few lanes over from me and was pointing at my bike expressing that he'd like to have something similar to his girlfriend.

I still am in possession of my baffles, but putting them in would take away some of the fun!!!  [evil]

What did he say?  My hearing is all messed up cuz of my loud pipes.

[laugh]

sometimes it a matter of being courteous. if i'm riding through a neighborhood, and i see a woman or couple pushing a stroller... i up shift and coast on through, to keep it as quiet as possible.. i mean really, it's not like it ruins my ride. or when i'm coming home really late, and pulling into my rented garage... i kill the ignition and coast the bike for half the driveway to at least TRY and be a little quieter.
by that time my ears are ringing anyway ;D

you can have loud pipes, heck, even REALLY loud pipes, and still be quiet when it counts. just stop ham-fisting the throttle back and forth for 30 seconds...

OK, that's funny too.  Oh, wait...

OK, THAT'S FUNNY TOO.

Bold and bigger letters are for you hard-of-hearing folks. :)

Too Loud (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xof1BWe099A#normal)

So does this mean when I upgrade to Termi's IT is going to shrink?

;D

Now that's a guy compensating for something...  

that can in fact occur after operating noisy bikes or cars, hearing loss and tinnitus (ears ring 24/7, NOT fun) can result, learned the hard way myself....

Definitely!

My M900 is almost a month mine, and it's my first bike.  It's used, and came with Termi pipes, and it sounds like the sexiest machine on the planet, I love it.  I am very conscious about the noise, and I feel a little guilty every time I start it in the morning, especially 'cause I have to hold the revs high until it warms up a bit.  I try to be quiet in my neighborhood as well, coasting or driving slow when possible.

But the loud pipes are the best safety device money can buy: no one fails to notice me in quiet streets, and on the freeway it's only big trucks who don't hear me coming. 

In a world where an unnoticed bike is likely to be ruined by the inattentive, I'd rather be loud. 

You actually get used to tinnitus, well at least I have.  Freak hunting accident.  I was the freak that accidentally stood to close to my huting buddy with open pipes on his shotgun.   [evil]

My bike is not nearly as load as a HD with those stupid straight pipes. I agree with Corey. Take it it easy and keep it down when you need to. I cant' stand the HD crowd rolling up to a restaurant and blipping their bikes for no reason.

Yeah, those HD guy's are the only one running loud pipes.

ZARD - Ducati 1098 full kit racing (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PqLHQo7wiMg#normal)

That's a nice looking system...

Loud pipes say "9 world championships"  http://www.motogp.com/

My bike came with Zards when I bought it.  The dB reducers were in the spare parts box, still wrapped in their original bubble-wrap.  After a few weeks of riding around, I decided to slip the reducers in and listen to the result.  I've kept them on since.  Pipe still sounds nice, but the sound is much mellower and far less obnoxious.  I too loathe the H-D straight pipe crowd and I figure I shouldnt be making similar noise.

Personally, I find the "pop" or "snap" more annoying than the rumble. That may be a byproduct of me having played bass guitar for a long time. Or it could be the byproduct of having to deal with guitar players who felt the need to turn it to "11." Constantly.


That bike sounded really good, right up until he ran over that chain-link fence with that family of cats hiding behind it.  ;)

me too fortunately, am living with it OK after a year or so and it has got a little better (FWIW driving a Lotus 7 replica a LOT got me), but read some tinnitus horror stories that kinda freaked me out at the beginning...i.e. madness, suicide, divorce, etc :o...anyway now wear earplugs when doing long duration noisy activities, also added a resonator to the car and have stock pipes on my Monster

Yes, that really annoys me too.  HD bikes with the bubbling POP after each boom is downright rude.  My wife hates those, but fell immediately in love with my Monster.  (The bike too!)

Mowing the lawn demanded earplugs for me.  Was so much easier to tolerate with 'em in.  The bike isn't nearly noisy enough to warrant it, and the idea of wearing plugs is tempered by the attendant drop in hazard volume.  I want to hear that horn or screeching brake. 

I'm waiting for people to realize that just because they think their pipe sounds "nice" doesn't mean it isn't obnoxiously loud to other people. If your pipe is over 100db, then it's too loud, period. If you're only ever riding around in the country then not such a big deal but otherwise you're part of the problem. Put the baffles in and save other riders the drama of draconian laws, when the laws are coming to your city then you might understand.

As for loud pipes save lives, no, they don't. Loud pipes *might* alert someone to the presence of a motorcycle (or construction equipment) and they *might* see you and *might* not hit you. If you're banking on *might* you'll lose. Aware and skillful riders save lives, loud pipes piss people off and bring ugly myopic legislation that affects everyone.

blah blah blah, not the first time I've said this shit, won't be the last, most people won't change until it means a ticket and then everyone suffers.

I wonder, did I miss the part where someone said otherwise or are you dragging another thread's baggage into this discussion?

Speaking only for myself, my pipes are quieter than the legal limit.  They're fully compliant AND they sound nice.


If I might paraphrase what you said:
Louder pipes make you more noticeable, we're agreed so far.
A significant portion of car accidents involving bikes seem to be a result of a car not noticing the bike.  I think we're still on the same page.
Riders who are more aware and more skilled are more likely to avoid an accident.  <insert 'duh' here>
Some bad apples might ruin it for the rest of us.

Your point appears to be that things that are too loud are too loud, and riders who are better are better, and dick riders are dicks.

Well, you haven't gone out on a limb here, and I think we're all agreed.  ;)

You may want to read this thread before you continue on without the earplugs.

http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=25518.0 (http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=25518.0)

Also, loud pipes do *nothing* for safety. If you like the noise, consider it good enough.



Also also, welcome to the board.

Not that I'm disagreeing with you but it sounds like you're advocating the use of stock systems and also upset about possibly having to run one? The end results seems fairly similar in your scenario.  The other thing is, probably 85% of the "way over the legal sound limit" vehicles I see rolling down the street are not motorcycles...they're cars.

Also, there are no guarantees in motorcycling, nobody promised loud pipes will save ALL lives.  It's all about chance and decreasing that chance, even slightly, might in fact save your life.  Statistically speaking I think it's probably near impossible to accurately measure the amount of impact they have on motorcycle accidents involving cars.

The only time I have *ever* heard a motorcycle and known it was a moto was AFTER it went by. Typically when they lane split by me on the highway I don't hear them. I notice modulating headlights, but the sound is directed backwards-so all it does is make it feel like you're make the beast with two backsing my ear after you pass me.

Thanks very much for that.  I will give them a go tonight and see how I fare.

Very true, but: I don't care if they know I'm a bike, I care that they know I exist.  =)

Exactly right: there's no magic bullet.  I know how to avoid cars and recognize the dozers intent on hurting me, but if I can gain a little advantage with louder pipes, I think it's worth considering. 

I'm sure there are countless situations where the effect of loud pipes is effectively zero in terms of safety, barreling up a highway at 10/10ths and passing traffic like it's standing still is certainly one of those situations.  I think however that it's unfair to claim that loud pipes have zero effect just because you can identify situations in which they appear to have no effect on other drivers attention. 

For instance, do you think they might have an effect if you had a sane rider who just happened to be riding in your blind spot? or a rider that was only overtaking you at a slow rate?  Maybe in a situation that's not on a highway? perhaps city traffic, blind corners, obscured entrances and exits?

Speedevil, an update on the  "NY's 'must have the EPA stamped tag on the exhaust' or you get a ticket."  status.  The bill was laid over in committee.  It been rewritten, bit is still in committee, minus 5 of the original 12 sponsors.  This is a result of the hard work of the NY motorcycle community, including Industrialgrrrl and 2001cromo on this board and myself.  Extra credit for Industrialgrrrl [clap] [clap] [clap] [clap] [clap].   

That's good news and perhaps a little common sense has been injected into the process in NY.

However, the gorilla in the room is that people running open pipes, some of them members of this forum, caused the law to be proposed in the first place.

There seem to be two favorite excuses:

1. I like it, so F*** everyone else.  I call short-sighted and selfish on this one.

2. Loud pipes save lives.  I call B***SH*T on this one.

Wake up people.  There are way more non-riding voters than riding voters.  Just like I said a few posts back - a little consideration will go a long way.

If you think I'm wrong - just look at what happened in Myrtle Beach.

Well, I'm a new guy here and I've only had my bike for ~4 weeks so I'm prepared to accept I don't know what I'm talking about, but I can tell you beyond any doubt that my pipes get me noticed.  I would question the motives of anyone here who suggests being noticed while riding isn't a good thing. 

I can't tell if you're raging at loud pipes in general, or if you're specifically raging at people in this thread whose opinions differ from yours.  I have to believe I'm not the target of the evil rage here.  My pipes are loud and my pipes are legal. 

As for Myrtle Beach, perhaps you'd be kind enough to link to whatever happened there?  A search of this forum (and the internet in general) brought up nothing that advances your point.

That said...  I've noticed there are two kinds of people in this thread: people with 'evil' in their names who have very distinct opinions and a blunt way of stating them, and everyone else.  ;)

No one is raging here.  I'm simply making the point that the actions of a few riders will ultimately affect all of us.  Here's your link to the Myrtle Beach ordinances that shut down bike week there.

http://myrtlebeachbikerinfo.com/ordinances.html (http://myrtlebeachbikerinfo.com/ordinances.html)

Do you have a link to a study or statistics that prove "loud pipes save lives?"  Absent evidence to the contrary, I would simply counter your statement with "loud pipes just p*ss people off."

I believe the EPA rules for motorcycle exhaust noise set a maximum of 80dBA but I don't know the distance from the end of the muffler that the measurement must be taken.  If your loud and legal pipes exceed this number or they are not EPA-certified for your make, model, and year, then they are not legal, despite your claims to the contrary.

My Termis probably can exceed this sound level, but I don't intentionally ride that way; I live out in the country; and I don't make any claim that my pipes are legal.  I really like the sound out of the Termis, but if faced with the choice of riding with stock pipes or not riding at all, I will choose stock pipes.

Edit: added the EPA-certified text

It boils down to this: Some people are irresponsible assholes and will do whatever they want. If they do it enough then the government comes along and takes away our toys.

Actually, that's not correct. Those regulations are only for the manufacturer to be able to sell the vehicle and has no bearing on the end consumer.

Um, no.  The regulations are for the manufacturers to sell motorcycles that can be licensed for use on public streets.  That is why aftermarket exhausts (with very few exceptions) say "for off-road use only."

We may choose to ignore the "off-road" admonition, but as soon as you install an "off-road" exhaust on a licensed-for the-street motorcycle it's not legal any longer.  That's the basis for a lot of towns/cities enacting the "show the label" laws.  The EPA is not going to enforce this in every town/city but it is a litmus test for a EPA-approved exhaust system.

Some of us also choose to remove the evap canister, which is also illegal.

We each pick our own poison, I guess.

i used to be in the loud pipes save lives category.

then one of mine got a dent in it and eventually broke. i had no other form of transport so i ran the midpipes with no baffles of any kind for about 2 weeks while iw as waiting for my new exhaust to come in.

the bike was more than obnoxiously loud. i would shake the windows of my house at idle from 50 ft away. i couldn't hear anything over the exhaust noise, even the wind noise as i rode.

i still had people pulling into me, cutting me off, and even stepping off curbs and walking right in front of me. it was then that i realized that most people that don't see you, won't see you no matter how loud your bike is. the only people more apt to notice you are the ones that are annoyed by the noise

now i ride with pipes that are quieter than my old ones(before they broke), but still have the throaty rumble i like.

Aftermarket exhausts do not need to meet the 80dB level to be legal. There are looser regs for that. The reason most aftermarket exhausts don't have epa stamps on them is because they don't bother to get them tested.

I am struggling to identify your point, here.  Loud pipes, which aren't actually all that loud, since they are legal, at least within the context of sound ordinances, save lives?  I don't think anyone is actually disagreeing with:
a: having loud, but not obnoxious pipes is OK because, hey, they're cool and they are not offending anyone
b: your being free to believe that they will "get you noticed", and therefore make your ride "safer"

Believe is the operative word here, absent any empirical data (or strong points) to support the idea.

Adding on to what MrIncredible's point, my neighbors say they can identify the rumble of my bike from blocks away - they can hear me because they are standing in their yard, or sitting inside their house.   This is the kind of "noticed" you can reasonably expect from loud pipes.  If they were traveling at 65 MPH, talking on their cell phone, listening to the radio, with the windows up, then I don't even know if being heard above the wind noise, much less being noticed above the din of distractions is actually possible.

Ultimately, if it makes you feel more comfortable as a rider, it is adding safety, as long as your expectations of how and when louder pipes affect your visibility are not too unrealistic.  But loud = noticeable = safer is not really a tenable argument.

Also, welcome to the forum :)  I think you will find that folks here are not antagonistic (unless antagonized), but they have opinions, sometimes expressed forcefully.  There is an important distinction there...

To reiterate my sig:

"First, a word on motorcycle safety:
If you've put yourself in a position where someone has to see you in order for you to be safe -- to see  you, and to give a f**k -- you've already blown it."

-Neal Stephenson


Getting noticed is not part of being safe. You're invisible-get used to it, work with it.

People mostly notice me as they hear the sonic boom as I pass them on the highway. That, and my open clutch.

Um, no.  CFR 205.166 specifies the requirements for motorcycle exhausts.  There are no exceptions for higher sound levels on aftermarket exhausts.  That's why most (not all) aftermarket exhausts specify "for off-road use only."  Read the regs here: http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr;sid=3f303be20684df7fd3993cc4c0b176e5;rgn=div8;view=text;node=40%3A24.0.1.2.11.5.17.3;idno=40;cc=ecfr (http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr;sid=3f303be20684df7fd3993cc4c0b176e5;rgn=div8;view=text;node=40%3A24.0.1.2.11.5.17.3;idno=40;cc=ecfr)

There is no difference or exemption for any type of aftermarket exhaust, even mods to the OEM exhaust cannot legally be made if they cause the noise level to increase.

The reasons for the lack of an EPA stamp do not matter - if the exhaust on a street-registered motorcycle doesn't have one it's not legal.

End of story.

Whether we like it or not is immaterial.  The rules are in place, they just haven't been vigorously enforced and some individual's selfish actions are causing the public to demand enforcement.  I don't want to remove my Termi's any more than anyone else, but if riders continue to be selfish, antisocial a**holes, we may all have to remove them or leave the bikes in the garage.

Some actions do have consequences.

Upon reviewing that, you are correct. However, any aftermarket exhaust only has to maintain the initial noise levels for one year or 6000km whichever comes first.

Also, it doesn't say anywhere that the exhaust system must have an EPA stamp to prove compliance.

Obviously if it says off road use only, that's one thing, but no requirement for an EPA stamp.

You're correct.  The noise limits only have to meet the requirements for a year or a certain number of miles.  I guess the EPA recognizes that mufflers that have a lot of miles or years don't work quite as well as a new one.  The EPA - common sense - that combination is almost scary. :)


The rules in this part say that exhausts manufactured for street motorcycles must be labeled according to CFR 205.169 and that they must meet the noise standards in CFR 205-166.

http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr;sid=25f534c376074c49c05154e0ce6209b4;rgn=div8;view=text;node=40%3A24.0.1.2.11.5.17.6;idno=40;cc=ecfr (http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr;sid=25f534c376074c49c05154e0ce6209b4;rgn=div8;view=text;node=40%3A24.0.1.2.11.5.17.6;idno=40;cc=ecfr)

CFR 205.169 talks about a permanent label that cannot be removed, that identifies the standard in effect, the make, model, and year of the bike.

If the EPA actually had the manpower to enforce these rules, aftermarket exhausts would be gone.  I don't know what the cost would be to certify an exhaust, but the rules read like it would need to be tested on every make, model, and year to be certified.  That would mean some large $$$.

I think there is a big difference between having loud pipes and having loud pipes and revving excessively.  If you have a set of after market racing pipes, great!  Be proud of them.  I am sure everybody on the board is envious.  But if you are the jackhole who bleeps and revvs like a brat who is dying for attention (good or bad), you have some issues.  I think that's what the original post is trying to say.  

Enjoy your bike responsively.  If you don't, you are giving the rest of us a bad name.  HD riders already ruined their reputation.  Let's NOT ruin ours.   [thumbsup]

Cheers

Me thinks you mean -not- instead of -now-.   ;)

Um...don't you mean that "broken thingy" that's making all that "rattling commotion" like "something's going to fall off"....


[cheeky]


There's such a fine line on this topic. There's people who cross it all the time, people who cross it some of the time, people who cross it once in a while, and people who get their undies tied in knots over it when they see it. While most of us use a simple thing called sense and common courtesy, others may choose to not exercise those things. I think that the underlying problem here (at least in part) is that people feel the threat and actual sanctioning of the government over the things that we do. This in turn makes it as sensitive of a topic as the debate over abortion law.

I know that some say that 100 db is too loud, but to be honest, I don't know what 100db sounds like. So I'll take a shot in the dark and say that I think that my exhaust is less because I've certainly heard much more from other bikes.

From my own personal experience, I have lost count at how many times I've seen a driver in the car lane next to me look over their shoulder or in the mirror to see what (I) was. They could hear me - that doesn't say much for accidents - because as we know they do happen. So I don't rely on that, but I like it.

Just ride safely and responsibly and for what it's worth, enjoy it while you can. 

[moto]

Good catch.  CORRECTED!

Everything MonsterDave said is what I was thinking, but more coherent. 

There's a huge grey area here.  Obviously there's no empirical data, but if people hear you, they are more likely to be aware of your existence, and less likely to drive into you.  No one's suggesting a loud exhaust is the be-all and end-all of safety, but I don't see how anyone can reasonably disagree that it works in your favour against inattentive drivers.  Every little bit helps.

In case anyone fears for my safety, I should mention I do not rely on the pipes to save me.  I've been a pedalbike rider for several decades and have enough bike sense to ride with traffic and stay out of harm's way.  I watch and I avoid.

I tried mounting the termis on the old pedalbike but it didn't have the desired effect.  =(

Thanks!  [thumbsup]


I'm a cyclist....I had the mental picture.... [laugh]

I'm pretty convinced that it's how one rides not how loud the pipes actually are.   Even obnoxious open HD pipes don't have to be horrible if the rider leaves the light at a lower throttle opening when in front of all the yuppies dining outdoors at the cafe.

I seldom ride to go somewhere versus riding to ride, but on the rare occasion I'm in town I just adjust my riding to suit.   I got a wave and a thank you once for walking the bike away from the curb in front of a bistro where the tables were within feet of the back of the bike.   Could have blown their wine glasses over on startup, but why.  (ok...if they had been pricks for any reason while I was there it would have been fun to let the bike spit fuel into their mimosas, but....)   Short shift out of the area and then save the 11K shifts for when they are actually fun to do anyway.

I see real advantage in "riding invisible"  as in going fast but not looking like you are, quiet exhaust, etc.....I'm just not there myself on the exhaust side of things. (because I like it...and my bike runs so much happier without restrictive exhausts).

I also don't think that the decibel level of my bike makes one bit of difference to my safety.   Too many years with different bikes show zero difference for me personally, but perhaps that is because of different riding techniques in traffic/town.

I will disagree. I've had people come into my lane (in town and on freeway, at high and low speeds) while I was riding my M900 with Remus exhaust, 848 with Termis, and my Monstrada with essentially straight pipes (I've now re-fitted the "udder" because it was too loud for me). Inattentive drivers are just that...inattentive. A little extra exhaust noise doesn't do shit for them...they're morons!

I've also ridden a BMW 1200GS with stock exhaust. It was eerily quiet. Had very few instances of people cutting into me...despite my stealth like sound.

Like others have said, exhaust sound is mostly behind you.

From personal experience I think that the size and height of the bike makes the most amount of difference to people noticing you. My Monsters and 848 were low bikes...and people tried to kill me on them more often than when I was riding my Multistrada or GS, both of which are tall bikes with better lane presence. The 848 was particularly bad for not being seen, despite the very loud Termis.

I don't think exhaust does a single bit of good for your safety. Good riding techniques are really all that matters (although I like my High Viz  A'stich jacket in dark/rainy conditions).

Like I said, and most people tend to agree - accidents can and do happen.

I admit that I quite enjoy these type of debates, but occasionally it gets a bit silly ... people form an opinion pretty quickly and stick to it regardless of the opposing argument. Just remember these are not absolutes we are dealing with. Sure your riding technique is your best defence and loud pipes are not but that doesn't mean that technique will save you every time and loud pipes will never save you ... although an individual's personal experiences may indicate otherwise.

But hey I'm happy to play along.

if you can actually notice your noise making a difference then technically you are likely in the wrong place from an ideal 'safe from cagers' perspective.    Street survival skills take time.   If you saw the guy/girl turn her head next to you from your exhaust, then you were in a bad spot...because the same placed car with windows up and stereo blasting wouldn't have heard you.   filtering, placement, speed differential from traffic, lane position, blind spot avoidance, protection from left turners across your lane, etc.etc.etc. take lots of attention....for new riders still spending lots of attention on bike control this is what often bites them.   even though not their fault...avoidable.

May we all go back to Daryls first post for a little zen time.  All this inganeerin tawk is givin' me a head akadee.  ;D
I have the full Akrapovic kit on my 1098S, and it's F'n loud.  I have a habit of pulling up to the guys (sportbike or HD) that are sitting at the light blippin' the throttle and telling them I can fix their bike if it's having trouble idling.   Best part, I can.  ;)  

Try it...it's fun.  :)



ZARD - Ducati 1098 full kit racing (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PqLHQo7wiMg#normal)

This thread is giving me a headache.

It's way louder than my bike.

Statler, again I think you are looking at absolutes. At some point you are going to be in a vulnerable position unless you only ride on private roads with no traffic. I'll give an example:

I was on my wife's bike (much louder than mine) and making a legitimate/legal overtaking move when a guy in a ute decided to do the same thing cutting into my lane. I would not have been able to get ahead of him as I was at his rear quarter and was not inclined to move into the oncoming traffic. I came off the throttle a little and the noise on decel alerted him to the error of his ways and he quickly swerved back into his lane.

So in that instance I don't think I put myself in a position riskier than any other where you need to overtake. Could I have stopped before a collision? Maybe. Would I have subsequently been rear-ended if I had braked? Probably. Did the exhaust stop a collision? In this case I would say more than likely.

If I had been on my bike, would it have made a difference? Nobody knows. Would my wife still have all her internal organs if she had been on her bike (rather than a rental) in a similar situation? Probably not, but who knows?

I think apple has an app for that  ;)

Bravo Sir, any concessions for two-strokes?

your thumb on the horn?



I'm not trying to argue....and only looking at overall themes....one overall theme I ride with is to not rely on a loud bike as a safety feature.  of course there are no absolutes...not disagreeing there.

and if you were overtaking a car that was doing the same thing weren't you a little close to him?   how far away was the car in front of him and was he closing in fast on that guy and likely to move over?    

I'm familiar with commuting by bike although I choose not to anymore.  7 years of school with bike as only vehicle.   Every ride into the office now on nice days includes at least one car doing something technically wrong and endangering me.....I still look at each time as what I could have done differently, not what they did wrong.

and as allways...these things are discussed with a grin and  [beer].

If you're on a two-stoke in downtown (where I live). I'll give you a  [thumbsup]


Haven't seen that one yet.   

...Cops two blocks back probably did though   [laugh]

riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiing diiiiiiing a diiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiing a diiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiing ding.......


riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiing diiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiing a dinnnnnng diiiiiiiiiing.


<blue smoke>

The thing is, no one is relying on it as a safety feature.  No one thinks a bright orange jacket or hawaiian shirt is going to be all they need to do, but as I said earlier, every bit helps.

I wear boots instead of sneakers, I wear jeans instead of shorts, I wear a fully protected jacket and a helmet and proper gloves.  My lights are always on, my pipes are always loud.  None of these things I do means I am any less attentive to the potential disasters when I ride, but every single one of those increases my odds of being seen and staying safe.  I ride as if everyone's out to get me, but I also take every opportunity ensure they notice me and to increase my odds if the worst happens.

I was [evil] ... nah like I said I like the debate it just frustrates me when people can't see a different view to their own (not that I am suggesting that is what you are doing ;)) ... plus some people will use your wisdom as 'proof' in their argument.


Under the circumstances decel was a better option ... which also made the horn redundant [cheeky]


It was just bad timing, he had been following the car at the same speed for a while and decided it was time to overtake, I was already in that lane. I always re-visit these things in my head as well and hindsight may offer a different solution but was that a realistic thing to do in the circumstances ???

8) Glad to see someone figured this out.  Also, few if any, bikes met the CFR. 
The CFR requires the label must be:
  In contrasting colors.
  Easily visible.
  Permanently affixed, most are embossed.
Even police Harleys do not comply.

Also, since when do parked motorcycles make noise?

Yes, I agree the motorcycle community needs to do more self monitoring.
 

Actually I beg to differ on that. Riding in said position acknowledges that the rider is riding in a view angle where he can see the driver and is not in a blind spot. Just because you can see them doesn't always mean that they can see you, but you can safely ride a car length behind someone and still clearly see thier face in a mirror or through the rear window. So technically, that's riding in the safest viewing postion possible. Just because you can see the driver doesn't mean that you're riding on their coat tails.

A car length is way too close in my opinion - there is no time for you to react. We are actually taught a 3 second spacing ... you would have to be travelling pretty slowly to only cover a car length in 3 seconds.

But if I can change tack slightly, what about dry clutches ... surely they save live [cheeky] ;D. They do tend to project quite a bit of sound forward.

Yes, sir.  :-\

How can a tread that started with making fun of small penis's turn in to such a technical debate about riding.   ???

 

Isn't it great?  =D

Personally I actually prefer my bike to be quieter, although I hate the look of most stock systems. That said, I think saying that loud pipes never get you noticed based on personal rider account is a particularly poor way to statistically judge their effectiveness. The majority of the time the effect they have on your safety should go unnoticed, the idea being that they negated some possible future where a driver endangered you. There will always be drivers who will endanger riders no matter the circumstance, but do loud pipes have any effect on the number who do? Statistically speaking I'd guess that they do, and realistically speaking I'd say that even an effect on one driver might save your life.

If you want a loud pipe because you like it, just say that. Don't drone on with the loud pipes save lives mantra to justify your own inconsiderate choices. (not directed at anyone in particular)

Can loud pipes help? Sure. Could riding around with a dead chicken duct taped to your head help? Sure. Is depending on either option to save you a wise choice? I don't think so.

I think that attributing someone's attention being directed at you to the volume of your exhaust is a tenuous argument at best. I don't believe that many people could recognize the difference between happenstance and actual causality, especially in a contentious traffic scenario.

I contend that people should actually ride with their stock exhaust for a while and see if it sounds ok first. If it doesn't then fine, go buy something but remember that anything that is too loud is going to contribute to the enforcement of laws that will prevent us from flying under the EPA enforcement radar (i.e. the application of already existing laws). Also remember that "too loud" is *completely* subjective and contextual.

I sent an email to one of the people leading up the effort to introduce the new stupid laws in NYC. I pointed out that the loudest vehicles that come through my neighborhood are actually garbage trucks and they usually drive past in the early hours of the morning.

Motorcyclists make themselves the target of legislation by pushing the limits on what is socially acceptable. How loud our pipes are, how fast we ride, the mile long wheelies on the freeway etc. Do any of us do these things? Not necessarily. Does that mean that we'll be exempt from the "EPA only", "Speed limiter" or "Forced wheelie control electronics" laws if/once they get introduced? Nope.

We're all in this together, people who go to extremes will have an affect on everyone. I'm trying to get people to consider the affect their actions will have on the wider community. If your choice is between nice sound at 90db and nice sound at 100db, please go with 90. I'm saying we should police ourselves before we don't have a choice.

^^ Would someone please translate that for me. I bearly made it out of
High School, back in the early 70's.  :-\

Most accounts of a bike hitting a deer I've heard are Honda Goldwing related.  I wonder if loud pipes could be saving the lives of furry woodland creatures?  I know cattle tend to run the other direction when they hear motorcycles coming.

Thanks.  Nice summary EvilSteve.  This thread has been a good debate with differing viewpoints being discussed without personal attacks and name-calling.  Back in school my teachers said we could disagree wihout getting personal and I guess they were right.

I posted the youtube video in the original post because it was pretty damn funny.  But it obviously generated a lot of responses, some of which I expected and some I did not.  I branched into the EPA regs, basically to educate myself to understand the rules that a lot of us (me included) choose to ignore.

The devil you know is better than the devil you don't know - and we're all better-informed now.

Ride safely.

I'm not sure there is a correlation between exhaust noise and the avoidance of vehicle-critter accidents.

I would posit that Goldwings (on average) are ridden many times more miles than the average Ducati.  As a result the Wing riders are more likely to meet a deer on the road just by being on the road more.

I get to say that because I own a Duc and a Wing. :)

Only because I haven't chimed in.  I have a huge c*ck.  I have boomtubes.  I ride with flip-flops, shorts, wife beater and a steel bucket for a helmet.  I shift late and rev often particularly in front of cafes and old folks homes. 

 [evil]








 [popcorn]

<snip>
I disproved this theory in August.  Hit a deer on my FJR with a full Muzzy system, she seemed completely uncocerned, until her leg broke.  :)

(http://smiley.onegreatguy.net/cartman.gif)

You charmer you - there's one in every group (if we're lucky, just one). :)

And I burnout and turn it into a wheelie at every intersection.

I kid (except about my junk and the boomtubes).  Just trying to make a point - I think you are preaching to the choir......

Chicken! Those old people can't catch you nor will most of them remember past lunch time.  :P

I think I just wet my pants laughing.....

Seriously, for a board dedicated to a hooligan bike, this group is a bunch of softies!

If lovin' you is wrong.. I don't wanna be right..  [bow_down]



Next comes the video with the dude in full leathers outside drinking coffee on a 100' day debate.  [laugh]

You wouldn't happen to have a "deer whistle" on your Wing would you?  A few Wingers swear by them but I have no personal experience.

Nope.  I always considered them snake oil and every test I've seen confirms that I've made the right choice.  But, YCITIYW-IYMNM.

YCITIYW-IYMNM= You Can Install Them If You Want - Its Your Money Not Mine. :)

http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=29741.0 (http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=29741.0)

ANGLER ROCKS!!!!!

I don't have boomtubes, but I loves me the sound of my ZARDS!!!!

Don't tell me you never start your bike just to hear it.

It's gonna be a long winter, boy.

I can't seem to find the quote now but I thought somebody mentioned 80dB in here as the legal noise limit, can anybody tell me what this is based on and how it is measured?

When my pipes were made the guys in the shop put the meter on it based on their interpretation of the rules ... with the meter behind the bike at about 4 metres and revs around 4000 it was right on the legal limit of 94dB with the baffles in (and they have been in ever since). I recently saw a Streetfighter at a show and the stock exhausts were stamped (I can't quite remember which) 92 or 94dB ... so 80dB, WTF? ???

A quick summary of recent changes to my local laws that I am aware of (and yes I am in NSW, Australia):
. there was a 94dB stationary noise limit
. this was replaced by a 'signature noise level' which were to be model specific
. after market pipes were required to have a 'noise label' demonstrating compliance
. not applicable to bikes older than 1988
. the 'noise label' law has since been repealed

angler made me spit my beer.

dude, come up to Baltimore and drinks are on me....but only if it's somewhere we can pick a barfight.

I found it quite amusing as well.

 |
 |
 |
 V

If that ain't an attractive invite, I don't know what is......

because some people just have to over think everything. ;)

because it's a motorcycle forum?   the small penis forums just don't have the legs to last very long.


 ;D

So...how long have you been hanging out at the small penis forums, then?








Sorry, couldn't resist. [cheeky]

Yesterday I was riding and decided to stop in this small town (which shall remain nameless ) to get gas.

I was riding my 1098 R.

After I gassed up I was leaving town and I had to pass a school that was letting out .

There was a  [leo] parked with his window down right along the right side of the street and the school was on the opposite side of the street .

My " R " has 102 db race Termis on it and I thought " Oh boy, here we go . I'm going to have to ride right past the  [leo] open window with pipes blazing ....well going 20 mph ."

I thought this will be a true test if a  [leo] is going to pull me over for loud pipes.

I road past and ....nothing.

Doesn't prove anything .

I think our fate has already been cast by the H-D riders and their straight pipes.

Around where I ride the H-D riders tend to ride in groups of 5 -15.

This particular town I got gas in is a cross roads and on the weekends a lot of Harleys come to the middle of town , stop for the 4 way stop and then roar away towards the hills and Jimbos, a biker bar.

When they take off you can't hear yourself think for 10 seconds.

There are a lot more H-Ds riding around than Ducatis , so I don't think we will make much of a difference.

Where I was riding mostly all this past riding season, I have seen maybe 2 other Ducatis.

I have seen at least 1000 H-Ds.

We are like fighter jets taking off. The H-Ds are like B-52s taking off.

We make noise , but get the hell out of there . The H-Ds make a lot of noise and take a while to clear the area of that noise.

What about the trucks , the hopped up little foreign cars with the loud exhausts and Semis and Diesel converted pickups ?

Is it only because we are viewed as recreational or toys that the other vehicles are not considered ?

Dolph      >:(

like many of us I have 102db pipes on my bike.  Down the corner from me is an auto repair shop.  The owner and his buddies all have straight pipe Harleys and Harley clones.  They love riding around the block over and over again, revving the piss out of the bikes around 15 MPH.  My neighbors compliment me on how quiet my bike is.  

Back to 416-A in NYC.  I read through the Council hearing transcripts.  When it was first introduced to the council back in 2004, more was said about motorcyclists doing wheelies and stoppies than motorcycles making noise.  The latest rewrite of 416-A doesn't even mention noise.  416-A is a thinly disguised piece of anti motorcycle legislation.

I can barely hear my boomtublets over my Walmart Deer Whistles. ;D

If true, you should add a "D" to the front of your screen name. 

I'll follow you then :)

Where I am living the Dash buses run every 15 min...both directions. LOOOOOUUUUUD!! All day. MUCH more noise than the occasional HD or sport bike that rides through. Those buses are propane powered and nearly intolarably noisy. I am also a block away from the police station and fire station, so sirens are pretty much normal deffening noise. The bikes are a nice intermission, no matter how loud(some of the HDs are cops off duty ;D). With all of that constant noise, I highly doubt the bikes are bothering anyone. You much quieter neighborhood may vary. ;)

Excellent idea.....

 [laugh] [laugh] [clap]

Dolph, I think you set a record (Not in an article). H-D mentioned 7 times in one post.

They should pay you for that.  [laugh]

kingbaby, aren't you glad I didn't spell it out 7 times !

Dolph      :)

 [laugh] [laugh] [laugh]  :P

do it, do it

+1000000000000000000

i just cut my termis
louder (not obnoxious)
happy grandpa nate

Well bless my small penis, I can't believe someone actually took my advice. 

http://www.southparkstudios.com/episodes/251889 (http://www.southparkstudios.com/episodes/251889)

Yeah, people hate bikes anyway, just enjoy a good laugh when you can get one. ;)

Bill, down here in Texas I've actually seen lots of cows running up to the fence toward me.  That could mean one of three things: the TX cows are braver than the OK cows or, the TX cows are really into bikes or, the TX cows are really pi55ed about me wearing all the leather. [laugh]

OH MY - now you've opened a can of worms...  and some old Texas aggie jokes...   Did the cows back up to the fence?  (all apologies)

No, the TX cows looked really pi55ed off; they looked like they didn't like me intruding in their peaceful setting.

I think the OK sheep are the only livestock trained buy the locals to back up to the fence...

OK, you got your shot in and I got in mine... I suggest we take it no further. ;D [drink]

or, the TX cows are really pi55ed about me wearing all the leather. laughingdp

Thanks,  I like that.

LA

Dont take this personally as I could have done the same with any number of other people that posted up the lame reason for running open pipes... and there is very little difference between a pure open pip and one with a can but no baffles
Your Logic is as flawed as your reasoning.
This reflects poorly on your intellect (at least you have some balls and taste though) and seeing as how this is your first bike you obviously don't have the survival skills that you should. No wonder you are basically relying on "Luck" as a major part of your survival. You have a good chance of being squashed by one of those BIG TRUCKS that didn't hear you coming.... oh or is it the minivan mom on the cell phone or the teenagers with the radio rocking to max volume [roll]
I'd take out a life insurance policy on you if I could as sort of a sad wager. If I cashed in on it I could use the proceeds to educate other ignorant Newbys to the damage people like you are doing TO MY SPORT...it's not yours until you live for several years and it is in your blood...lots of newbys give up the first time they leave a little blood on the street ;)

^^ wow

getting kind of personal...and inflammatory

and really close to pissing me off...

I'd appreciate it if you backed it off a notch.

You're projecting your existing prejudices upon me, as you cleverly note when you say this could apply to everyone who doesn't agree with you.  I never said the loud pipes were all or most of my safety considerations when riding a bike.  I said every bit helps, and loud pipes help.  Helmet, gloves, riding jacket, boots, every time.  If you'd read what I said instead of stopping after 'loud!' you'd note the parts where I said I've got decades of pushbike experience in the mountains and in traffic, and I know how to read people, and I know damn well the only person responsible for keeping me out of trouble is me.

You know what my neighbor said to me, the first day we met?  "That's a nice bike."

My bike's not running cored or track pipes, it's not running straight pipes or anything ridiculous.  My father just picked up a Yoshimura track pipe for his Bergman scooter, and it sounds a lot louder than my M900 (until he put the volume decreaser thingus in it).  It's louder than most of the Jap bikes I see, but quieter than most Harleys and a LOT quieter than the dirt bikes that BRAP by all the time.

I don't take offense to your post.  If you weren't going off half-cocked and tearing strips off me, you'd probably be doing the same thing at someone else.  And I imagine they'd :rolleyes: at you for jumping to conclusions too.

You're not wrong to think loud pipes are obnoxious.  You're just wrong to think mine, which you've never heard, are too loud.  You're wrong to think I'm relying on noisy pipes to keep me safe.  And you're wrong when you post things like this on the intertubes - who'd take your words to heart when you're simultaneously betting on my early demise?  =P

Damn dude, lighten up. 

I am curious, have you decreed an exact amount on your "several years" limit cause I am a little curious if I have any ownership in "your" sport yet?

This should get locked up tight soon,  too bad really it's been a good thread

What? No faith in the goodness of mankind?  I feel sure that this thread will turn back into a discussion of small peni "shortly". 

The discussion of loud pipes never really goes anywhere because a certain percentage never want to accept that they're going to need to sacrifice some of their own freedom to have a chance to maintain more freedom in the long run. They believe that their rights trump everyone else's.

Until we, as a community, grow up and start being more responsible with these things, we're are going to be increasingly subject to ridiculous laws drafted by people who have no idea.

I fixed that for you, EvilSteve. 

Seriously, it's not always about you.  You may not always be correct.  My loud pipes may not be too loud.  Sometimes quiet things are too quiet. (http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20090921/0141396258.shtml)

I also fixed this other thing you said:  "They believe that their rights trump everyone else's."  I'm sure you meant to say that "What I think is right and trumps what everyone else thinks."

You may be right.  In fact, in many cases, you probably are.  I don't know however that your case is furthered when you behave like this.  (I think we already covered the fact your name is appropriate, didn't we?)

here is the problem with the whole loud pipes argument on both sides.

where do you draw the line? and who decides what the line is?

you will always have one person saying something is too loud, and another saying its not loud enough.

you will always have someone think some acts are wrong, while others see nothing wrong with that same act at all.

so again who draws the line and where?

is simple majority rule ok? should it come from the riding community only or should it be decided by those that live in the area as a whole who have to deal with the effects of some people's actions?

the real problem is that everyone takes the "nimby" point of view and that is just how it is, we are all selfish and are only looking out for our own best interests.  that's life.

Wise, and true.  For now, we've got laws specifying the amount of noise allowed by bikes (in many places) and while we may not all agree with its usefulness, it's probably the only limit we can all agree exists.

There's no easy answer.  You're wrong about this though:


EvilSteve's belief that he's arguing for the good of all of us puts the lie to what you say, though it proves you're right when you imply that it's hard to define a line.  We do not all agree, but I doubt any of us are intentionally acting selfishly.  For my own part, I don't believe I'm causing any problems for anyone: I'm within the legal noise limits, and my neighbors don't mind, so I'm travelin' just fine, thanks. 

Not sure why anyone should have to sacrifice anything. If you have a quiet motorcycle because you want a quiet motorcycle, have a quiet motorcycle.  If you have a loud motorcycle because want a loud motorcycle, have a loud motorcycle.  If you want loud pipes because it makes you feel safer on the road, by all means, have them.  If you want quiet pipes because you feel morally obligated to your community, then do your part and ride the hell out of your quiet motorcycle. 

Sorry, but I just don't have the desire to give up my loud bike so that I have the right to have a loud bike. 
It's my right to have a loud bike. 
It's your right to not have a loud bike. 
It's your right to not like my loud bike,
but it's not your right to try to make me change my bike. 
If you believe that it is, then who's rights are trumping who's?

I really like the tone here :)
But seriously, I NEVER heard a Duc with TOO loud pipes.
The annoyingly loud bikes in my area are all customs and Harleys driven by people with no helmet and wings on the jeans jackets.
Oh wait...the MotoGP Ducati, that was a notch too loud for my taste.
So, its a matter of taste and sensibility.
And no, you don't have the right to have a too loud bike if you bother other people.
Thats the limit of your 'rights'

Wonder what a diesel engine in any 3/4 ton to 1 ton truck on the road says about their drivers since just about every one around here are about as loud as any Ducati exhaust at 6krpm I've heard.

I'm not going to completely disagree with you.  No one has the right to intentionally "bother" anyone.  With that being said, managing not to bother people is impossible in today's society(in anything) and anyone who tries is going to have a very sucky life and still not succeed at it.
As far as your comment above, I (we) do have the right to have a loud bike.  How loud, it is up to  [leo] to decide.  I (we) don't have the right to throttle it in front of a church during a wedding.  That is intentionally bothering other people.  In my opinion, that is the limit.  
If I am mistaken and your statement is correct, please allow me to make one minor change:
"And no, you don't have the right to smoke in public if you bother other people.
Thats the limit of your 'rights' " [/quote]
Not taking a shot a smokers, but just sayin', if merely bothering people was the main factor, where would it end!

And therein lies the rub of all this talk of moralism.   It won't end if we don't make it end.  Most second hand smoke research is rubbish, really.  However, society has decided primarily on moral grounds to come down hard on smoking. Wouldn't it be nice if everyone in the world took personal responsibility and consideration for others to heart?  YES. The trouble is many don't.  Is the answer in increasing the reach of the nanny state?  NO!  Do we have a personal responsibility to behave in a way in line with social norms?  Perhaps, but there are limits.  Sometimes social norms are bogus.  I feel limits based on things as subjective as morality should NOT be put in place by government.  If there is a physical safety noise limit, then by all means codify it in a law and enforce it.  I believe we also have a personal responsibility to stand up for things we like, even if it pisses some people off.

I understand that ability to have loud pipes is tempered by my ability to be a responsible citizen.  I have boomtubes, as stated before.  They are loud, but have the most restrictive baffles.  My neighbors don't mind the noise (I live is a dense 'hood and am close to my neighbors) and I am very careful about noise in the 'hood and everywhere really.  My airbox honk is louder than the pipes at most any throttle.  Can I make them be obnoxiously loud?  Yes.  Do I make them obnoxiously loud?  Yes in the same situations that I would use my horn.  Does it work?  Like the hand of god reached out and took their crackberry away from them while driving.

So grow a set.  A set of personal responsibility and a set of freakin' balls to stand up to these nanny types that want to legislate crap like this.

... Do what you want to your bike but be prepared to take personal responsibility for it.

 I ride in So Cal, ALOT.
I dont own a car....

My pipes are loud

So is my clutch

...YES it gets me noticed.. but not all the time- Thats where being attentive comes in.
some people may get pissed, then again so do i . [evil]

Embrace your inner Hooligan... F'em   [thumbsup]

This is where too loud is defined: http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=11576efbd1e6af57f094961eb4da6246&rgn=div8&view=text&node=40:24.0.1.2.11.4.17.3&idno=40 (http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=11576efbd1e6af57f094961eb4da6246&rgn=div8&view=text&node=40:24.0.1.2.11.4.17.3&idno=40)

The law also states that you cannot alter your exhaust system. It's illegal.

That's what I'm talking about right there, there's been no enforcement so people seem to think that it's all good. It's not. When the squeaky wheel (like the people in/near my Neighborhood who complain about the loud bikes down at Astoria park, these are allegedly the people who've triggered the draconian laws be drafted in NYC or at least given the person leading the charge the impetus) gets the oil, we all suffer.

Keep saying that noise is a subjective issue, it isn't. What's subjective is if you like the sound or not. What's objective is that there are specific laws that pertain to the legal volume of vehicle noise. If you're anything over that with anything other than a stock exhaust (even if it isn't stock actually) you're contributing to the problem.

I think elderly women often wear too much overwhelming perfume. That crap should be outlawed.

Precisely my point.

Look I've heard the "few bad apples...." argument.  Whatever.  My focus is on personal responsibility and defending my ability to use aftermarket parts and have my moto sound how I want it.

I see evilsteve's point, however I would rather fight to have a few bad apples than have us all bowing to the nanny's in this world.  This is a very slippery slope.  If we give in we will see mandatory helmet laws.  Oops, that has already happened.  I mean we will have mandatory training wheels and rollover cages on our electric only motos in no time.

   Most of the noise level laws are already in place, along with tampering with factory equipment, as a tag along from the EPA. A lot of it at the moment is each individual lawmakers grasp at increased revenue for their area, as this catches on the Feds will see this opportunity and increase their enforcement of the existing laws as well as new ones. A lot of people who never hear a loud noise embrace these new laws simply because it's in a 'green' direction. Most of these laws have nothing to do with actually offending anyone, simply a cash cow and a political tool. I say, set a reasonable dB level that most can agree on, use measuring devices, and try to get away with as much as You can!!   Oh wait... thats already happening ;D       Being as politically incorrect as I am, I will do what I want until forced to change,It will happen, And I will fight beyond...RIDE ON

I'm not advocating more laws here people. I hate the fact that NYC is trying to implement restrictive laws *only* on motorcycles. There are two reasons why this is happening in my estimation: 1. Motorcycles are actually loud & we have a bad wrap 2. we're a smaller group & therefore easier to target. Any law relating to noise should apply to all vehicles IMO. It's no secret that politicians have issues with bikes here and many other places. Why is that?

We can talk about our rights and freedom as much as we like but saying it doesn't make it so. We're not free to run whatever exhaust we want without consequences that's a fact that's backed by the law.

I"m not supporting a "nanny state" here, it sucks but what makes it harder to stop these laws going through are the few "bad apples" who feel that it's their right to run full race pipes or open pipes around build up areas. Does that mean I won't fight these stupid laws? Hell no! What it means is that I think we, as a community, can minimize the chances of crap laws being introduced if we exercise some restraint.

  I agree, there is a time and place for everything, and personal responsibility is the key.I don't want to hear loud exhaust on anything when it's too loud, and even most tracks have adopted noise restrictions,I think as motorcyclists, We need to direct the law enforcement to the loud stereo playin' rap, that offends more than any well tuned bike out there!!.... I'm going to call the Gov'nor, and My Congressman, and tell them to get it right....

OK my apologies to the person singled out in my previous post and for pushing the limits of what is acceptable.
Like I stated to him though... don't take it personally... I could have done the same to ANY number of others that give up their lame excuses for having loud pipes.... I ease into MY neighborhood, I ride a gear high past the front of the Church, After a certain hour I ride quiet, I only let it rip in the country etc etc etc. It is real easy to punch holes in any of these with the basis being that somehow this person supposedly knows ALL.. where every nightshift person sleeps during the day, that there are no people in the country enjoying their peace and quiet, where all of the backs of churches are. The FACT IS you never know who is around back, or the other side of the fence or sitting in a deer blind in the field... must I go on for you to get the point?

Loud pipes does not make you faster on the bike, your skill, your brakes, and suspension allows you to do that. A free breathing engine does help but you hardly need to be running WITHOUT baffles to achieve that do you?
In fact doesn't a loud bike make you ride slower??
I mean you have to SLOW DOWN so as not to piss people off a good bit of the time ... it's
Loud pipes don’t make you faster, your skill, brakes, and suspension allows you to do that. A free breathing engine does help but you hardly need to be running WITHOUT baffles to achieve that do you? Doesn’t in fact a loud bike make you ride slower if you are even semi responsible?? Don’t you have to SLOW DOWN so as not to piss people off a good bit of the time? Seems it's another piece of flawed logic of the loud pipes save lives crowd. I know that a lot of you will say no, no it's not that the loud pipes saves lives it's because X, Y, Z reason. But in the end you are all in the same boat....... someone who is damaging MY SPORT. I don't like it and I will be vocal about it by trying to point out the error of your ways... If I do it in a pointed manner at times I sorry about that. But ..........sometimes to get a Jackasses attention you do have to hit him up side of the head!

I am an avid motorcyclist, I'm not a Footballer, basketballer, baseballer sort of guy.. not avidly at least. There are two things that I feel real strongly about as a motorcyclist.... they both have a strong and direct impact on MY SPORT and ours and FUTURE generations ability to enjoy it in the future. One is noise and the other is rider training/first bike subjects. I tend to be fairly opinionated about both... Noise because it is probably the largest threat there is to our sport. Rider training because a failure in this area is frequently fatal, probably killing more noobies than anything else. Least importantly in lives, but larger in numbers of people, are those that have to many close calls or take to big of a hit  financially when they drop that shiny new bike that they end up out of the sport before they ever "Get Into It"

There ARE people out there who would love to legislate us out of existence. I've watched over the years as Offroad Motorcyclist have lost hundreds of thousand of public use acrs to ride on. They have finally started wising uo in the last 4-8 years and quietend up their bikes.... you know the ones out in the country where no one is..... ofh except those people who really like their peace and quiet. I'm all for taking a stand right here and now.. we do for the most part have the LEGAL RIGHT to run a decently performing baffled exhaust that both allows a motohead to enjoy a strong running bike/car while listening to the music... the her and now does not generally allow the use of straight pipes or unbaffled  "Race Systems".

MY SPORT.... YES it is my sport, and hopefully it is your sport as well.  As for me, seeing as how I have about another 15-20 years of riding I'm pretty sure that I will be able to tough it out no matter what happens regarding to  future legislation that will erode our rights to ride.  But how about my children and grandkids..... or yours?
I don't take my time to try and write out a lengthy response to the same old argument just because I find it amusing OR because the implementation of more regulations will have any great effect on me, I do it because I'd like future generations to be able to enjoy the same thrills of the sport as I have.

The real question is... IS IT YOUR SPORT as well?
If it truly is then you ought to be willing to sacrifice a few decibels on your exhaust in order to help preserve it.

Do they have the same arguments/discussions on the 'American V-twin" forum?

Just curious........ those f'ers are loud....and slow.... and largly posers (the weekend warriors that I see).

- Naturally i'm just trying to stir the pot ;D 

I don't mean to single you out, but ... who am I kidding ... or course I mean to single you out.

I've gotta love the fact that you can claim the moral ground with regard to noise but in the next paragraph encourage or advocate speeding (OK technically you said 'ride faster'). Morally conflicted at all?

You then go on to talk about your passion of rider training and safety but refer to riding as a sport. By any definition I have seen sport if competitive in nature ... competitive and safe ... on the street ... sound like more conflict.

If the 'community' is going to have an argument on any of these things we would want to make sure our logic is actually logical.

Damn Dangler, That's deep.  I wasn't going anywhere near the "Stop givin' my kids lung cancer" soapbox.  I was more on the side of "It smells like ass and it makes my food taste bad".  But hey, if the resturant lets them do it, then light'em up if that helps them enjoy their meal.  Who am I to tell them to stop?
Same way I feel about this exhaust noise debate.


If the yearly inspection on my bike, from a state licensed inspector, says that it is OK, then I am not going to loose any sleep over it.  In that same manner, if they ever tell me to tone it down, then I will tone it down.  That has yet to happen with either my previous opened Termignoni system or my current BoomTubelet"s.  

 
First off, I agree with you in that the loud exhaust saves lives logic is flawed.  Not saying that it hasn't worked for someone, somewhere before, but not something I would ever consider a safety feature.  I also agree that loud pipes don't make you faster, but they don't make you slower either.  And yes, I am a responsible rider.  Do I slow down in the neighborhood to keep from pissing people off?  No.  I slow down in the neighborhood to keep from running over little Johnny and/or his puppy.  Do I slow down in front of the police station to keep from getting a noise ordinance violation?  Nope.  I slow down to keep from getting a speeding ticket.  I do make attempt to keep the rumbling to a minimum at odd hours or around events like weddings, funerals, etc.  Is that to keep from pissing people off.  No.  Just out of respect.  Maybe I just live in a really good part of the US, but if my bike is pissing so many people off, they sure don't seem to express it.  
Dude, I am not damaging YOUR SPORT.  You are just being to uptight to fully enjoy it.  If you are so against loud bikes, then just let us Jackasses bring about tougher exhaust regulations on ourselves.  If your bike is quiet, it won't affect you anyway.


It's our sport (and my primary means of transportation)
And you ought be willing to accept that other people might not (and don't have to) see things the way you do.  No matter how many times you hit them upside the head.  (Jackasses do tend to be stubborn animals).
And the next time you "let it rip" in the country, keep it within the speed limit cause speeding is also illegal and damaging to our sport.

Uh, maybe not!

I can see what you're saying but I don't think waving your inspection sticker around (metaphorically! ;)) is going to stop you getting a ticket or stop your loud pipes from annoying people (if in fact they are).

This is one of my other frustrations on the creation of new laws relating to noisy bikes. There are already laws in place and there are already methods to enforce these laws but because the system is broken and because people keep whining about noise, politicians are feeling pressured to come up with a band aid. In reality the solution should be that noise is checked at inspection and enforced there. Doesn't stop people from pulling that exhaust after inspection however.

Honestly, I feel like the argument I'm putting forward is pretty simple. I've yet to see a counter argument which isn't based on people's rights or semantically arguing about what's loud or what's not. It's not your right and too loud is defined in EPA laws.

Here's a very simple example: try running your stock exhaust, if you really can't deal with it, instead of putting on open or race pipes @ 102db, put the baffles in & run them @ 90db. The decibel scale is exponential remember, there's a big difference there.

I know my posts here are getting annoying to some so I'm going to stop now.

Wow, I'm beside myself that this thread has continued on a crash course and on and on and on and on.....


This debating could give a guy a real headache!!!  [roll]

I guess the loud pipe discussion hit a nerve for some...   just like H-D riders with the South Park cartoon.  Good times.

I'm quite surprised at the denialist point of view in this thread (not this quote in particular, but several similar ones as well).  Honestly, I cannot see that the 'loud pipes get you noticed' fact can be debated.  No matter how valuable you think the effect is, I dunno how anyone can argue against the position that being louder makes you more noticable.  

Ignore for a moment that loud is bad, loud is rude, loud is just inconsiderate to everyone who isn't you.  Ignore for a moment also that loud pipes aren't a cure-all that works every single time.  How can you say, while being totally honest, that louder pipes don't increase your noticability to other people?

I can't help but believe there's a mental disconnect going on here.  It seems pretty factual that being loud increases your chances of being noticed.  The people arguing against that are making a different point: that being loud doesn't work every time.  

Two different points, both inarguably true, as far as I can tell.

Now don't go trying to add any kind of logic to the argument; you'll take all the fun out of it. [drink]

The only people that notice that you're being loud aren't the ones that you're trying to 'impress'....ie the LEOs.

The people on their phones/texting, shaving, or putting on makeup while driving never notice anything...

get used to it.

That said, my bike was last tested at 100 db...well within the legal limit where I live.

The cop who lives across the street from you didn't seem to mind the "noise" from DIMBY...

I paid him.... :P

Good idea. Otherwise I'm sure mine would've drawn a little unwanted attention.

Although, the guards at the Sub Base never seem to give it a second thought....

I've lived in the San Francisco Bay Area for the last three years. Arguably the motorcycle capital of the US.  Bikes lane split here, and there are a lot of them-they pass the cars regularly when I sit in traffic.

Not once, while in a cage, have I ever noticed a motorcycle based on it's noise.

Know why? My two daily drivers are a '62 Falcon with an aftermarket, modified V8-noisy inside. All you can hear is exhaust and vibrating electric fuel pump.

The other would be an 07 BMW-opposite-quiet as make the beast with two backs inside, killer sound system, which, if I'm driving, is probably fairly cranked. I can't hear shit outside of the car, unless it's a siren.

And of course I'm not listening for motorcycles. I'm looking for them, especially before I change lanes. When bikes lane split, they sneak up on you real easy. The only thing that has ever, EVER made me notice a bike earlier than I would normally, was the strobe headlight. When I notice the exhaust note of a bike, it's already gone past me. Real good.

The noise? that could be anything-there's three major airports here, all flying overhead. No end of big trucks, aftermarket car exhausts (see Falcon^) etc etc etc. That roar? All it equates to is something nearby is loud. Nothing screams "motorcycle!" to me. The noise just warns me that the stereo isn't loud enough.


All of my bikes have had a stock exhaust. All were quiet. I've never had a problem getting noticed. This would be because I don't put myself in a position where someone needs to notice me. It's the only way to stay safe.

While a fascinating description of the reasons the rule doesn't apply to you, I'm not sure what your point is.  Nothing you said reinforces or repudiates the facts I laid out. 

If you're just backing me up when I say "loud pipes aren't a cure-all that works every single time" then hey, thanks for that.  We're on the same page.  =)

Let me clarify.


Loud pipes have done nothing for safety for anyone, ever.


If you find yourself in a situation where someone noticed you because of your exhaust/horn/etc, that's just another way of saying "I put myself in an unsafe situation and blind luck saved my ass".

Not denying that they can make you more noticable.  Just more so after you pass.  Not denying that they might help.  Just saying that I don't consider them as a means to keep me safe. 


Not waving anything man.  I might get a ticket tomorrow.  I probably won't.  I might fail the next inspection.  I probably won't.  I understand and don't disagree with your thinking.  Illegal is illegal.  I am just saying that it is what it is.  I offer up the powers that be my bike once a year.  They inspect it to the states criteria.  They tell me it's OK.  I pass a local police station and a county police station every night and every morning on my way to and from work.  If they are out at the cars, I wave, they wave.  They sometimes shake their heads when I go by on the really cold mornings.  Good enough for me.  If either ever tell me different.  I will change it. 

We can agree that this thread isn't producing anything positive for anyone.  I am not here to make enemies.  I think this is one post shy of the end for me also. 

I thought loud pipes were a male sexual enhancement.

I like visibility as a safety modality. Noise is usually not specific enough in direction so that another driver can make a quick decision on where it's coming from. Sound reflects off hard surfaces.

This doesn't make sense at all. That someone notices me 'cause of the noise I make does not mean I was in an unsafe place before.  One thing does not logically lead to the other.

For example: another driver with no intention of doing anything but driving a straight line.  He wasn't looking as I crept up behind him, but he heard the noise.  Now he knows I'm there, but I wasn't in an unsafe place before or after this awareness crept up on him.

And that final post would be to motolocopat.  I am not sure why, but the "Your damaging the future of My Sport" message that you have been preaching has bugged the shit out of me.  As I said earlier, I am not here make enemies and/or argue with anyone.  We were on opposite sides of the fence on this topic.  You were not gonna change my mind and I've had no desire to try and change yours.  I understand that you are passionate (as you worded it) earlier about the topic of loud exhaust.  I understand that you would like to have your message heard and convince others to follow your lead.  What I don't understand is how you present your case in the manor that you do (or you have in this thread) and justify it as protecting the future of YOUR SPORT. 

I run a loud exhaust.

You make comments like this to new riders:

Brother, you are the one Damaging the Future of Your Sport!

Any time after the first paragraph, I wasn't actually directing anything at you, sorry for my poor writing skills.

NFG - I'm sorry but you don't get it.

when drivers start treating motorcycles with respect I'll tone my pipes down.  Until then they can kiss my arse!  My Duc is just right and so is my Harley but I still installed a 138 decible horn to scare the shit out of idiot drivers. 

Seems to me we're having two entirely different conversations.  I'm saying loud pipes get you noticed, you're saying there are rules against too-loud pipes and so on. 

I guess you're right: I admit I don't get how you think you're responding to me with things that have nothing to do with what I say.

No worries.  I wasn't taking anything you were saying personally.  I am a little envious of your writing skills.  Hell, I couldn't have even spelled metaphorically, much less used it in a sentence that made sense. 

Why would it matter that the driver in front of you be aware of you? The only time I could see it mattering is if you were following too close.



Not to get personal about it, but don't you think 4 weeks experience isn't really enough for you to make a judgment yet?

I've said plenty about why loud pipes saving lives is a load of crap, I won't bore the rest of the board by repeating it. The fact is that irrespective of the angle we approach this issue, having loud pipes is what's in question. You're saying it's a safety issue (I, and others disagree) I'm saying it's illegal and that people should get quieter pipes because otherwise we get draconian laws. In fact, ultimately, we agree. If NYC style laws come to pass *everyone* will have quiet bikes and, by your logic, suffer for it. I just want to have some freedom left and am prepared to suffer a little for it now rather than have it completely taken away later.

As much as I dislike the AMA, please read the following: http://www.amadirectlink.com/legisltn/positions/sound.asp (http://www.amadirectlink.com/legisltn/positions/sound.asp)

[laugh] That anyone should see me as an aspirational figure disturbs me… ;) :P

Ok, I'm really done now.  [roll]

Not in this thread you haven't.  Going by what other people have said, by the same logic, helmets are a load of crap.  "If you're relying on a helmet to save your life, you've already lost."  You're not reading what I'm writing (http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=31341.msg557409#msg557409) about the issue if you still disagree.  Again, different conversations. 

That sort of blanket statement doesn't help this discussion, and I think you must know this.  MY pipes are NOT illegal, so off the bat you're wrong.  My pipes are LOUD.  No one here has advocated the use of illegal pipes.  We've all said we make an effort to be quiet when we're in environments that might desire such consideration.  Once again, you're responding to something that was not said in this thread.

Someone else already said this: It doesn't make sense to run quiet pipes NOW so that we're not forced to run quiet pipes LATER.  "I want loud pipes next year so I'll run quiet ones this year!"  Nonsense.

FWIW, I'm enjoying this conversation.  I'm not annoyed or frustrated that the other side doesn't agree with me.  I'm quite happy to be proven wrong, but the core tenets of my stance (http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=31341.msg557409#msg557409) have yet to be assaulted, and so far the conversation's been a bit disjointed. 

Perhaps it's a result of the loud pipes, but it doesn't seem like everyone in this thread is listening.

Yea Right.  Talk to you tomorrow!

Well said.  Actually, it might just be selective hearing.  If someone agrees with you then they heard you, otherwise not.

But, no one has refuted the EPA regs that define the sound pressure levels for exhausts certified for on-street registered motorcycles - mainly because your motorcycle is subject to them  whether you like it or not (unless you're not in the US).  So, as EvilSteve said earlier, exhausts that are too loud are illegal and you know what that means.

Because the current laws aren't enforced, we will get more draconian laws that will be selectively enforced.  And exactly how is that better for motorcyclists?

That's a good point, but you're right: no one's refuting that.  There's no point, as you say it's the law whether you like it or not.  I think we can all agree on that: Too loud is illegal, and probably dumb as well.

Of course this is a rhetorical question.  =)

Perhaps we can summarize:

Loud is legal. 
Too loud is illegal.
Loud gets you noticed.
Being noticed is not enough: ride responsibly.
Loud sounds good.
Too loud is rude.
Cars want to kill riders.
Lawmakers hate bikes.

Can we all agree on these points?  Are we good?

Now let's just bring the conversation back to ME for a moment.  Me me me.  MY pipes are awesome.  MY pipes are loud.  MY pipes feel good when I rub them agains...  er...  That's probably illegal too, never mind.

Yes, and No. Loud gets you noticed by people out walking, biking and eating at a cafe. Loud does not get you noticed by oncoming cars. And cars turing left in front of a biker are one the single biggest cause of rider fatalities.

Test it out for yourself. Next time you're on the freeway, in your cage, and see a Harley in the rearview, slowdown and let them pass. I will guarantee you that you won't hear jack s#!t of that exhaust until they are right next to you. Once they're in front of you, then you'll hear it.

And, then again, this is a Ducati forum. Where we ALL know it's loud clutches that save lives...

My termi's and my clutch are loud. I wouldnt have it any other way. I like it, and yes I also have a small wiener. [drink]

Is the horse dead yet, ladies?

No, no, no, I think I saw that microscopic piece of hoof over there wiggle a tiny bit about 20 minutes ago. We'd better be absolutely sure . . . get the napalm.

The Doc

Ah, now this is a very good point.  You're certainly right, a car in this situation - especially with the windows closed - ain't hearin' nothin'.

I have been wrong the whole time!  Quick, where can I order a nice orange pressure plate and an open cover?

If not, I could put it out of it's misery.

Horse is dead. I took a swing at what I thought was left, but that piece of hoof was from the cow everyone started on after they were done with the horse.