Ducati Monster Forum

Excellent read. 

http://motomatters.com/analysis/2011/08/08/the_trouble_with_the_ducati_desmosedici_.html (http://motomatters.com/analysis/2011/08/08/the_trouble_with_the_ducati_desmosedici_.html)

Surprised the article didn't mention this, but Ducati already have abandoned the L configuration...in the forthcoming 1199 Streetbike. Its engine is more-than-rumored to be less than 90 degrees, for flexibility in mass centralization. So they seem to have already killed that sacred cow, but are sticking with the L in MotoGP?

Great article...thanks for the link.  [thumbsup]


From my understanding, the new SBK still uses a 90* twin, but the entire engine is rotated rearwards so the horizontal cylinder is no longer as horizontal as before. Basically, it's now a "V-twin" as opposed to an "L-twin"...even though the L-twin description is really just a marketing tool.

Could be. Then again, the current L twins are tipped backwards a bit too.

Got a reputable link on that?

Reputable? Everything coming out has been in either the Italian press or MCN...not exactly what you'd call reputable. Supplement that with the scuttlebut at the local Ducati dealer, and take it for what it's worth. But the things I keep hearing are gear-driven cams (yummy!), monocoque frame (carbon, carbon composite, or aluminum), and non-L configuration, whatever that means.

This is the best english one I've seen...surely posted on this board somewhere. I saw an italian version a long time ago that seemed to say the same thing according to the google translator.  [cheeky]

http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/newsandupdates/motorcycle_news/122_1009_2011_ducati_superquadrata/index.html (http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/newsandupdates/motorcycle_news/122_1009_2011_ducati_superquadrata/index.html)

Still 90, just rotated to not be an "L".

It may well be!

That said, I think the GP12 is clearly going to be an L. One would hope Ducati have the courage and the resources to reconsider that decision.

f*cking fabulous article, as usual.

this makes me wonder how much harder it will be to tune the 1199.  i remember one of the announcers saying that one of the reasons that checa is doing so well in WSBK is because of how easy it is to get that bike to work with the riding style of the rider.

Great article, with lots to chew on.

Great article. I learned a lot about the compromises involved in designing a competitive GP machine.
I disagree on one major point. Ducati's "iconic brand identity" is based more on winning, and in David vs Goliath fashion, than it is on any one tech or design feature. Ducati owners may piss and moan about change, but any lost buyers will easily be made up in new, enthusiastic fans. Ducati doesn't have to follow the HD model of releasing antiquated, uncompetitive machines just to hew to tradition. I think the commercial success of the new monsters and the diavel prove that, an i suspect that the 1199 will do so as well.

tires tires tires

i agree.  the twin part of L-twin is much more important to ducati fanatics.  they all know the GP bike is not a twin, therefore i really doubt if they care what configuration 4 it is. 

Depicted graphically:
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/185228_10150340709214224_589624223_9777837_7148255_n.jpg)

^^

 [laugh] [laugh]

That pyramid is funny.  The article sounds like Ducati is killing sacred cows AND sacrificing performance at the same time.  I hope that moving MotoGP technology into their superbikes doesn't kill them in WSBK.

Updated, to include input from Enzo...
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/267274_10150340809814224_589624223_9778509_4654086_n.jpg)

I got through half the article before work got in the way. I will attempt to finish it tonight. Great read.

Up to this point, only the good things from the GP bike have been applied to the WSBK bike. I hope that they have put the year off to good use by working out any issues they might run into next year.

Excellent read.  The article does a very good job of summarizing the issues and hypothesize on the cause(s).  It is surprising to know that the main characteristics, that make a Ducati a "Ducati" and brought the brand its racing success, are the main hindering factors for the current lack of success in GP11.  GP12 is shaping up to be a pivital year for the company (as if GP11 isn't one already).

The vertical cylinder has always been 11 deg.  The singles were 11 deg too.

Those sacred cows were killed ages ago:

-no dry clutch
-no trellis
-no desmo
-no L twin, but it is a twin..
-no 90 deg

Also, the dry clutch on factory ducatis has only been around since 1985.  I hardly think that's a sacred anything.

(http://www.autobelle.it/annunci/public0002/img-1306145200.jpg)

and exactly how classic is that bike or how well was it received?

http://motomatters.com/news/2011/08/18/ducati_building_aluminium_chassis_as_par.html (http://motomatters.com/news/2011/08/18/ducati_building_aluminium_chassis_as_par.html)

Shouldn't returning to a steel trellis be at least as much of an option as building a twin-spar aluminum frame, which they have no experience with?

Maybe the NCR Millona16 frame is the right solution

(http://www.ncrfactory.com/eng/images/16/foto/01.jpg)

Ask Carlos Checa  ;D

Perhaps it's easier to CAD/CAM the spar than research the characteristics of the trellis frames after they're welded together.  And, isn't the 4-cylinder engine wider than the two-cylinder engine?  Might require lots more stiffening/welding of the trellis where it bends/turns behind the head to wrap around the engine, which would constrain/defeat the purpose of engineering flexibility into the frame ahead of the engine.

the origional purpose for going away from the trellis was to gain more airbox room which the trellis to the head constricted...problem solved by making the frame be an airbox as well as the other portions of duty it is doing....they also used different diameter and thickness of tubing for the GP bikes over the SBK's...tuning the flex just as much so with those charachteristics in mind...

You're saying the flexibility in the/a MotoGP trellis frame can be tuned as finely as, say, a designed spar?

I think so...they used to sorta do it legally within the rules of SBK before FIM/DORNA clamped down on the "frame" specifics in the rules....

There were rider complaints that the bikes never felt the same, even when all the settings were identical. Minute differences between frames could have been part of that.

Of course, riders saying no two bikes feel the same, even with identical specs, is hardly limited to those with steel trellis frames.

The 990 Ducatis had trellis frames, and as zooom points out, the reason for moving away from it was to gain a larger airbox.

read the article.  that's why they themselves aren't building it.

To me, make a Al, steel or Ti trellis  with a monoque skin that doubles as the airbox
you  coudl make it larger and stay witha proven material

Does the FIM allow titanium as a frame material?

Titanium is actually too soft to use.  It has to be alloyed with aluminum or steel and then you probably still have issued.

I just don't get the airbox bullshit.  Seems to me they could have redesigned the original frame to permit air intakes elsewhere or have a secondary airbox.  I dunno.  I have NEVER though CF would work well as a frame.  I know that AirBus uses it with pretty good results but even they don't use it for the main airframe.

Too "soft" to use as in for trellis frame is what I'm assuming the meaning was.  Then not so much "soft" than "flexible" since it's E is about half that of steel and about 60% higher than aluminum.  Then there is also the issues of Ti being brittle and costly.  It is difficult to bend Ti tubulars without cracking it.

How hard to cast or forge ti
with the new frame style that would be the way to male it

They aren't my area of experience, but typically you have a more porous material in the as cast condition which would make things worse.  With forgings I can only guess that the NRE costs of the dies would probably make it too cost prohibitive.

now that everyone seems to say that it's cf's feedback that riders cant understand as they learned to ride on twin spar or trellis frames, will having the new 1199 frameless design in wide circulation be able to teach the next gen/current gen riders how to understand what the new frames are telling them?

and i know that the 1199 for the most part will be al, but i'm sure that cf testing on the new bike will keep going on.

i think they say CF dampens the feedback.
which is one of the reasons some bike riders (pedalpower) use them for forks.
the resonance factor could be the issue.
really can't tune that back into that material from what I know (which isn't much)
you can adjust it's stiffness, but it's still going to dampen the feedback.

one of the things talked about with vyrus/tesi front suspension as well, too much dampening/isolation for the rider-front feedback.

(http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/Ducati-Desmosedici-GP12-EVO-Mugello-1-635x373.jpg)

http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/racing/ducati-desmosedici-gp12-evo-mugello-test/ (http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/racing/ducati-desmosedici-gp12-evo-mugello-test/)

Wouldn't it b easier to buy a Yamaha and switch the engines?

Fixed.

power (still) isn't ducati's problem.  and since they have no experience building twin spar, they farmed the job out.  we'll see.

Spy shot in Aust M/CNews Mag shows Franco Battaini (test rider) on an alloy twin spar chassis at Mugello. The mag claims the frame was designed by Ducati but made for them by FTR. The mag also claims this has caused internal conflict within Ducati management.

Twenty bucks says my old Rupp mini bike from when I was a kid handles better than Duc's GP bike. [laugh] Hell, resurrect the old Rupp engineers and have them design the frame. [roll]

i bet it has.

they've always done their frame design in house.  got a link?

they aren't 'claiming' -- it was publicly stated that they were developing one in parallel but that they had farmed out the job since they have no experience building them.

The bike is fine.  The problem is Rossi.  He's never been able to ride anything well.

Exactly. He's always had the best bike under him. And he whines about everything ;D

Comments about whining go in the Stoner thread. [laugh]

Australian Motorcycle News.
Neil Spalding article. Spy shot by Mirco Lazzari.
Don't know what web sites have picked it up.

The Yamaha was not the best bike when he switched from Honda.

Perhaps this:
http://www.sportmediaset.mediaset.it/motogp/motogp/articoli/67768/nuova-ducati-gp12-ecco-le-prime-foto.shtml (http://www.sportmediaset.mediaset.it/motogp/motogp/articoli/67768/nuova-ducati-gp12-ecco-le-prime-foto.shtml)

But the pictures don't show anything...

i think you can see a frame in the top of the bottom 2 pics.  look at the break in the bodywork compared to the gp11 pic.

This was satire...responding to Spidey's satire:

Actually it was sarcasm. :-*

satire...sarcasm....same thing...like PBR and Sam Adams....

LOL!

Actually, compared to Racer 5 they pretty much *are* the same thing ;D

Looks like Rossi is going to do a proof of concept of the SBK AL frameless front

http://www.superbikeplanet.com/image/archive/tobymoody/ (http://www.superbikeplanet.com/image/archive/tobymoody/)

(http://www.superbikeplanet.com/image/archive/tobymoody/vr46alum2.jpg)

(http://www.superbikeplanet.com/image/archive/tobymoody/vr46alumin1.jpg)

note the insert in the steering head in the 1st pic and the bracing under the tank on the side of the 2nd pic....

Tell you what... if this fails to produce results, look for Ducati to scramble with 50-million excuses since their next SBK is based on this exact tech.

So an AL frame up front?

yep same as the new SBK

i always wondered why they didnt try that before

How do you know that it's the same as the new SBK?

1199 will have al instead of cf, it's been reported quite a few times.

same material, same tech.
I'm sure it's diff in size due to 4 vs 2 cyl etc.

but the point is, They HAVE to make this  AL frame piece work to help with sales of the new SBK
The CF was a bust. the AL is their last hope at proving the 'frameless' tech works.

plus i hate the term 'frameless'
to me that means, motor/seat/forks/swingarm. if you have a part connecting the motor to the forks and another connecting to the seat... you have frame components. how is the new style any different than the old style?
none. ok so the swing arm doesn't touch the front part.. but neither does my Monster... is that frameless then also...

sorry rant over... cheesy freaking marketing gimmick 'frameless' BS

According to IZ_ spy pics, cellphone pics, rumor, fiction, and innuendo.

Has there been a pic of the SBK frame?

Or even a pic of a small part of the frame, like Toby Moody's cellphone pic of the GP11.1a?

http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=50268.msg923446#msg923446 (http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=50268.msg923446#msg923446)

not renderings. actual photos

Which pic shows the "frame" that connects the engine to the steering head?

3rd one
you can see the steering head

Not necessarily. The GP machine is a far different animal than the WSBK machine for a variety of reasons. What works in one may not work in the other.

Now if they aren't competitive, even bordering on dominant, in WSBK with the new bike then I expect the shit to hit the fan.

http://www.crash.net/motogp/news/173066/1/rossi_to_try_aluminium_chassis_at_aragon.html (http://www.crash.net/motogp/news/173066/1/rossi_to_try_aluminium_chassis_at_aragon.html)

If I were losing that badly with that much talent, my member would be stressed too...maybe they need a Hero Member...

At Aragon, Nicky was quoted as saying "My engines wouldn't work in that chassis." , referring to Rossi's GP11.1Al.

 [coffee]

Best pic I've seen so far:

http://www.cycleworld.com/2011/09/17/finding-flexibility-in-motogp-racing/ (http://www.cycleworld.com/2011/09/17/finding-flexibility-in-motogp-racing/)
good text by Kevin Cameron (as usual).

(http://com.cycleworld.s3.amazonaws.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/finding-flexibility-in-motogp.jpg)

http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2011/Sep/110917rydernotes.htm (http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2011/Sep/110917rydernotes.htm)

I like the Titanic/deck chairs comment at the end. Very appropriate. [laugh] [roll]

http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2011/Sep/110918rydernotes.htm (http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2011/Sep/110918rydernotes.htm)

Duc shuts down their WSBK team (yeah, yeah... I know Checa is the de facto "team"), pays Rossi a boat load of $$$ and this is all they can come up with? [bang] Who's actually in charge of this mess? It's like watching a plane spiral out of control and/or watching a boat sink. Take your pick. Sad. :P

Seventh may be the new first at Ducati but ...

 [laugh] [laugh]

Cameron does a nice job of explaining the role that chassis flex plays in stability in his (1998) book Sportbike Performance Handbook (see Chapter 14), and touches on the strengths and limitations some manufacturers dealt with.  Although it's ~fifteen years old, the physics of chassis stability have not changed.

I say for sheetz and giggles Rossi should throw a leg over a trellis framed GP11 and see what happens....

Something else to consider?

http://www.motoczysz.com/news/article/motoczysz_tests_latest_6x_flex_front_end (http://www.motoczysz.com/news/article/motoczysz_tests_latest_6x_flex_front_end)

How exactly does that thing work?

cool concept....however it works...suspension technology is something always worth pushing...

forks are solid pieces

the yoke has a single shock

(http://www.freepatentsonline.com/7182357-0-large.jpg)

basically adapts the rear single shock design to the front.

http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/racing/valentino-rossi-test-aluminum-frame-jerez/ (http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/racing/valentino-rossi-test-aluminum-frame-jerez/)

rossi to test new al frame at jerez... differing information on whether it will be twin spar or the "frameless" style though.

The concept is that the fork lowers are built to flex side to side but not forward to back. The flex is tunable and comes into play when the bike is leant all the way over. The rider still has a direct connection from the bars to the tire. I can't imagine why people wouldn't consider this option.

I understand the reasoning behind the change away from the steel trellis (airbox volume), but they seemed to be winning then despite, so... (http://wineberserkers.com/forum/images/smilies/shrug.gif)

The outlook may be improving for 2012.

http://www.bikesportnews.com/news-detail.cfm?newstitle=Rossi-laps-as-fast-as-Stoner-during-Jerez-test-session&newsid=5720 (http://www.bikesportnews.com/news-detail.cfm?newstitle=Rossi-laps-as-fast-as-Stoner-during-Jerez-test-session&newsid=5720)

Almost as fast as the 800cc race lap time...but no data on the 1000cc Honda? It's heartening, but I'm still worried...

FTR claiming that they've never heard of Ducati.   [laugh]

That thing looks smaller than the current DS. From what I've heard, the 1000s are not translating into huge gains in the lap times, so as long as it's in the ballpark, I trust the GOAT and Burgess to milk a few tenths.

Just for fun.

http://www.superbikeplanet.com/image/archive/britten/brian/index.htm (http://www.superbikeplanet.com/image/archive/britten/brian/index.htm)

Can't believe my friend's older brother owns a Britten and I have never gotten to see it. [bang]


More GP11 info.

http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2011/Sep/110921misa0o1ss237.htm (http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2011/Sep/110921misa0o1ss237.htm)

Interesting...

(http://www.superbikeplanet.com/image/archive/member/ducatiuspto0.jpg)
(http://www.superbikeplanet.com/image/archive/member/ducuspto1.jpg)

More on Stomer/Rossi laps at Jerez:

http://motomatters.com/opinion/2011/09/27/the_fog_of_war_just_how_do_rossi_s_and_s.html (http://motomatters.com/opinion/2011/09/27/the_fog_of_war_just_how_do_rossi_s_and_s.html)

I can't wait until Valencia!!

More GP12 stuff...

http://www.cyclenews.com/articles/road-racing/2011/10/05/rossi-out-of-jerez-test-hayden-in/ (http://www.cyclenews.com/articles/road-racing/2011/10/05/rossi-out-of-jerez-test-hayden-in/)

interesting that he has said more about the aluminum frame than Rossi or Burgess....

And now Checa is in to test the GP12

http://motomatters.com/news/2011/10/04/carlos_checa_to_test_ducati_gp12.html (http://motomatters.com/news/2011/10/04/carlos_checa_to_test_ducati_gp12.html)

Guess they're looking for anyone with a good idea. ;) I keep waiting to get my phone call. ;D What do they have to loose at this point?

the comment about bayliss' setup is interesting.  and not too surprising.

but also worrisome about the new SBK. think about it. if Bayliss and Stoner are the only two who can ride the frameless tech to the limits, and that's exactly what Ducati doesn't want working on the new GP. how can Bayliss' direction on the SBK be good input as well?

that's not the way i read it.

yeah, that's not what that meant.

the way bayliss rides any bike, GP or sbk, is so different from just about everyone that he is less useful for data collection than someone who uses a more standard setup.  like, apparently, checa.

and i said not surprising since when you watch bayliss ride it mostly looks... wrong.  apart from the fact that he's going so gd fast.

Perhaps it's Rossi's beard that's helping, the longer it gets, the better the bike goes.  [laugh]

Seriously, has there been any info on that?
Is he not shaving until he podiums or wins a race?
'Cause if it's the latter, he'll be looking like Billy Gibbons.

Wins on a Ducati GP bike:
Rossi: 0
Hayden: 0
Checa: 0
Bayliss: 1
Stoner: 23

I know that's pointless but thought it was funny anyway. I thought it was interesting that Bayliss scored fewer points the longer he was in GP, maybe he would be a good test case.

Whatever happens, I really hope Ducati pick up their game with the GP12 and really hope that doesn't require a Al beam frame, I like that there are different solutions to a problem. Personally I think that more than anemic grids, having to have exactly the same bike is more of a symptom of a sickness of the class than anything.

Capirossi: 6

i think bayliss' 1 win really counts as 2 or 3.

<leghump, leghump>

bayliss' win also happened on a bike he helped develop. his lap times on the 800cc bike were "less publicized".

yeah yeah.  i'm more speaking to the manner in which he won.  but, you already know that.  ;)

I see a Chuck Norris type of joke coming from this! [laugh]

anybody else notice that we heard NOTHING, nada, zero, zilch, about Nicky and his test day at Jerez with the GP12 and whether it was twin spar or what....

he said it went well.  apparently that's the depth of info he's supposed to share.

Maybe a no news is good news situation. ;)

From what I rwad, they wanted to keep everything quiet from the beginning, but Nicky kept tweeting. Maybe someone from Ducati should remove that boy's phone. I doubt that they want to give away anything until after the test following the final race.

http://motomatters.com/analysis/2011/11/07/ducati_s_future_direction_filippo_prezio.html (http://motomatters.com/analysis/2011/11/07/ducati_s_future_direction_filippo_prezio.html)

really logical explanation as to why the frameless design no worky in an engine-allocated environment.

damage control to ensure sbk isn't a sales nightmare
and you just bought it

"something forced upon the factory by the lack of testing permitted by the rules"
What a crock of shit, how long does it take to sink in and how many riders have told Preziosi that the bike was make the beast with two backsed, and then to blame the testing rule, please [roll] To me that line is a case of pure arrogance. 

(http://www.motorcyclenews.com/upload/284697/images/ducati-aluminium-frame-1.jpg)

http://www.motorcyclenews.com/MCN/sport/sportresults/MotoGP/2011/November/nov0811-ducatis-new-twin-spar-aluminium-frame/ (http://www.motorcyclenews.com/MCN/sport/sportresults/MotoGP/2011/November/nov0811-ducatis-new-twin-spar-aluminium-frame/)

sure i did.  because what he said makes no sense.

(http://www.bikesportnews.com/images/sitecontent/news/6022-art.JPG)

@motomatters: Just spoke to Hector Barbera. He said new aluminium chassis is a huge improvement, can feel the front end on corner entry.  feels more like his old Aprilia 250, he said. You can feel the connection between the front and the rear. Engine is also much sweeter

man, everyone is trying to sell that 1199!

Still over a second off the pace:

Let's hope that improved feel leads to improved times at some point...

lol. so Barbera basically said the frameless tech sucked but the new perimeter frame rocks. 1199 better sweep superstock next year and then sbk.

is it just me, or does the amount of room/space around the front wheel to the fairings seem unnaturally large?

it's off the ground so fully extended.

The fact that Bayliss beat his best times on an 1199 after being retired for a bit suggests that it'll be fine. Ducati are spinning as best as they can but I think that it's reasonable to say that the rules in GP affect the viability of the design that Ducati were trying to use. Super hard tires mean more flex is required in the rest of the bike, engine allocation means changes to engines are a really big deal. Bridgestones used to be Ducati majority designed and there used to be no limitations on engines, the years between didn't seem so bad because Stoner rode around the problems which meant that Ducati thought everything was fine (in spite of Stoner's now clearly valid complaints) and now that they have the best of the best they can't pretend that the design is fine when it clearly isn't. All of that doesn't mean a whole lot when comparing to the road/SBK environment any more than it can be compared to the earlier iterations of the the Ducati GP bike. The rules and limitations are different so the solution has to change if they want to win.

Doubtful. Most people realize the GP bike is vastly different from the SBK for a variety of reasons.

Like EvilSteve said...Bayliss' 1199 test results indicate the concept will be fine for WSBK and street, and the initial reaction to the looks will almost ensure good sales, depending on price.

Ease up on the tinfoil hat, eh.  ;D

(http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/fc1eeb106eb7.png)

more like it's the overall cut of the lower fairing.  i've thought that all year.

For the record, Ducati says the tank will be 4.5 gal. Big for them right? ;)  [laugh]

Considering that the "4.1 gallon" tank on my 1198s actually holds only 3.2 gallons, I suspect your mileage (literally) may vary ;D

Is the 1199 tank plastic? Or did they come back to their senses?

Aluminum.

Thank goodness...I think they started making the plastic tanks super thick to deal with the tank expansion problem...sacrificing capacity for longevity. I'm sick of that light coming on at 70 miles [thumbsdown]

That's my top reason for not wanting a Ducati, the tank size and range. Some people may get tired and want a break at 100 miles, I get pissed off when the light comes on, it really limits my riding. Love just about everything else about my M1100EVO.

Do we have and idea of the actual capacity of other superbike tanks? Most of them are in the 4.5gal range right?

I think they're right around that. I wouldn't mind the 100 mile capacity...provides a perfect break from superbike ergos. If only I could get that far...

lol. <fouryorkshiremen>100 miles? Luxury!</fouryorkshiremen>

I almost wish the EVO was uncomfortable so I didn't want to ride it that far. Only positive is that my wife has an M796 so we have approximately the same range (even the extra 10 or so she gets is annoying though!).

Interesting look back on what Rossi/Burgess can do if given the right resources and opportunity.

http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2011/Nov/111122m1evolution.htm (http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2011/Nov/111122m1evolution.htm)

I JUST finished reading that....good piece and I can't wait to see what happens in terms of how much testing goes on before Qatar

Good article.

And here's hoping. [thumbsup]

At least now they will have the whole offseason to try to work things out, instead of the limited testing.

Yeah.

I have to say I flipped the bozo flag on Stoner when he commented that he didn't like the idea of additional testing. Of course he doesn't like it, since the Hondas are so dominant at the moment.

"Hmm... if other people are allowed to practice, they might get better. No, I don't like it one bit."

More likely because he'll get roped into doing something for his manufacturer other than racing.  Casey Stoner is like Cole Trickle from Days of Thunder.  "they told me to get in the car and drive, and I could drive."  That's pretty much all he's about. 

if rossi/burgess manage to resurrect ducati, i see it as sealing the deal on him being the goat.  taking a bike that everyone thought was crap into a championship winner and then doing it again would be incredible.

That would be awesome but I'm sticking closer to reality. Keeping my standards high and my expectations low. ;) I think a win here or there and some semi consistent podiums is damn near as good as a championship given how sorted the Hondas and Yamahas are. I don't see the switch to big block motors helping Ducati solve their other problems. But I do like the idea of more testing... and yes, I'm sure Stoner doesn't! [laugh]

Just hoping 2012 is more interesting than this year. Less carnage would be nice. Also hope the CRT bikes add some flavor and not just act as cannon fodder/grid filler. Time will tell. [popcorn]

It could be that he just doesn't think it is necessary. Stoner is reportedly very efficient at getting the bike where he likes it, be it a Ducati or a Honda (probably especially the Honda though).

If that's the case, why would he want more testing? Racers will take any advantage...can't blame them.

Apparently we can.

I'm in favor of more testing.

Stoner was very off form after the super hot race and then Misano (IIRC), he's probably concerned that the schedule they already have is enough in some cases without adding a bunch of testing on top of it.

I wonder if people would be having the same reaction if Stoner was still at Ducati and dealing with the bike and Rossi was on the M1.

I honestly don't see how these guys stay sharp, as little as they ride.

If I were in Stoner's shoes, capable of hitting the setup as quick as he does, I wouldn't give anyone else a millimeter.
Let alone give Rossi a millemeter, he'll end up with an inch!

More testing should help Nicky a bunch, he seems to thrive on seat time.

You truly can't blame Stoner.

A) The factory will ask him to spend more time testing than with his family. He has proved that he needs less practice/testing to be batshit fast.

B) More testing is only going to be an advantage to Yamaha and Ducati. Yamaha has had the benefit of Rossi/Burgess developing that bike for 6 years? On a completely new bike they'll also need as much seat time with all their riders as possible. They also lost Edwards, who from all accounts was very good at development. Of course this is also another way of Carmelo's saying "make the beast with two backs you" to Honda.

considering where carmelo's head is, the testing un-ban is primarily intended to help the CRT teams.  and ducati, since rossi = The Show.

oh, and the testing limits never meant less money was spent.  so like the 800s, stupid idea.

i wonder if stoner got so good at hitting his setup fast because he learned how to ride around so many problems on the duc.  so it's not so much that the set up is perfect every time, it's that he's just so used to getting around bigger issue that any smaller issues wont affect him that much.

new slogan for ducati?  training next years champions?  haha

yup.  his unique riding style means he doesn't need to nail the setup as much as most.  besides, the honda is uber sorted.  and they had stoner-honda data to create a baseline from.  part of the reason why he was up to speed in 2 minutes last year.

i recently read an article that said, "On a simple level, Stoner is a throttle man and Rossi and braking man."  very true.  rossi needs the front to be working; stoner is happy when the rear is over there.  ancient history by now, but why the GP7 was so misleading for everyone else.  what did mamola call it?  a rocket barely under control by electronics.

I think Stoner got to where he is now (quick set-up, riding around problems) because of how he grew up racing, doing many many short races in a single day. That format places a premium on being fast very quickly. It's for sure a benefit now, but I don't think he learned the skill at Ducati.

For full disclosure, this isn't my idea, I just agree with it. It's explained in the book "Ring of Fire"...a very interesting read for GP fans.  [thumbsup]

Anyone besides me wondering what nameless, asymptomatic syndrome/disease Stoner will be contracting in '12 when Honda starts leaning on him for more non-racing activities, such as  public appearances?   [evil]

lactose intolerance is no joke

everything is made with it.
and if severe presents itself like food poisoning

http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2011/Dec/111206b.htm (http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2011/Dec/111206b.htm)

"I don't see any (young) riders in Italy that can be compared with Marco," Gresini said. "There is a hole in this next generation. Let's hope that Valentino Rossi can be competitive on the Ducati, because it's important for motorcycling."

http://cyclenews.coverleaf.com/cyclenews/20111213#pg56 (http://cyclenews.coverleaf.com/cyclenews/20111213#pg56)

Rossi talking about the GP11.

http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2012/Jan/120104a.htm (http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2012/Jan/120104a.htm)

Hmmm....seems Carlos hasn't been reading the threads over here during the past season, or has he?

IF I were Pirelli or Michelin, I would jump all over the chance to put a set of tires on a GP11 and see how they do!
Then if it screams around the track, go to Dorna and offer up a little competition to Dunlop for the "good of the series"

"Can't wait to hear Casey Stoner's take on this."

I'd like to hear what Casey thinks about all this too.

I think it's all PR to save their ass and trying to influence Dorna/Bridgestone to change the tires to better suit the D16. When does the Bridgestone contract with Dorna end; 2013 ?

http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2012/Jan/12010565flexin.htm (http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2012/Jan/12010565flexin.htm)

seems Carlos isn't the only 1 pointing the finger at em...

Fair, but he too has ridden the D16 on those tires. I wonder if any of the non-ducati riders complain about the tires.

from another article:

http://www.crash.net/motogp/news/175808/1/safety_officer_capirossi_weighs_in_on_motogp_tyres.html (http://www.crash.net/motogp/news/175808/1/safety_officer_capirossi_weighs_in_on_motogp_tyres.html)

"There were problems with serial numbers too. With that number you can figure out when the tyre was built. A tyre built two years ago can't go as quick as one built last week. Some riders had the new tyres and some others the old ones. That's not okay, that must be fixed: I want the last rider to have the same possibilities the first one has."

I like what he says, let's see if he gets any headway.  Loris is probably in the top 3 or 4 of most likeable riders imho. 

i've heard a lot of riders say the tires were too hard and very, very scary in the opening laps because of what it takes to get them up to temperature.

That goes against what Bridgestone said all last year.

They were saying the tire allocations were put up and shipped months before an event.

I have no doubt that the tires are a huge issue, but it's all money and politics.

It remains to be seen if Loris can have an effect.

well....you know the old saying...talk is cheap...

(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l309/ducatiz/DMF/9033d9e2.jpg)
I am the Lorix!

I speak for the TIRES!

 [clap]

yup.  everyone is scared to death of them in the opening laps.

It will be interesting.

One thing we haven't seen much of is people completely running out of tire on the stones.

I'm wondering if they chose this route purposely?

I still think Loris will be beating his head against the wall.

If Ezpeleta was serious he wouldn't have re-signed with Bridgestone.

took this route on purpose, yes.  however they seem to have gone too far.  the 2008/2009 tires appeared to be the perfect mix of grip and longevity.  like TC, give engineers enough time and resources and they'll refine the human factor out of most anything.  it's still amazing that riders can turn their fastest laps on their last laps with these things..

they've *always* been much stiffer carcasses than most other tires.  that contributed to the whole coming of age thing in 2007, same year michelin got caught asleep at the wheel.

in addition to being scared to death of them in the opening laps the OTHER thing everyone says is that when they're up to temp no other tire comes close in terms of grip.  a move to pirelli or michelin would mean developing completely different bikes.

Maybe there would be a race occasionally. ;)

i think we'll get some of that this year and a lot of that next year =)

It would be nice.

Really?

This sounds promising (for everyone!).



I had the chance to chat with Cal Crutchlow for a quick minute at the Long Beach Montorcycle Show and this is how it went:

Me: With everything that... happened... at the last few races of the season, I can't help but think the tires are-

Cal: Oh, mate, they make the beast with two backsing suck. (I'm not lying: this is, verbatim, what he said).

Me: So Rossi and Schwantz aren't just blowing smoke? The tires changed from 2010?

Cal: Not just last year... From the first race of 2011 to the last, mate, I promise you: different tire.

Me: Wow, I'm surprised they would do that considering the safety ramifications. Anything to do with "Japanese Business"? (I worked in Tokyo as a designer for Honda for 2 years... Japanese Business is... well, unique)

Cal: Absolutely what I feel about it. They are cutting costs... they won't do anything unless it makes them money or lowers their cost and I'm telling you it's dangerous as shit out there on those tires.

Me: I know that business first hand and that was my first reaction, as a GP "outsider" and a fan.

Cal: Yup. I just hope it changes.



This isn't "on the record" so if you don't like what I wrote, just dismiss it as bullshit. It was a casual conversation and I was surprised how quick he was to talk about it (and what I'd consider in a very honest manner). I'm a huge Super Sic fan, so trust me... Cal's words stuck with me and I'll never forget them. Sepang was the culmination of what so many people "saw coming" with the nature of the 2011 Bridgestones.

It's unfortunate and beyond words how I feel about Sepang 2011, and I'm glad that (just like anything for rider safety) Capirossi isn't afraid to make waves if it's for the greater good.

Finally (but still too late).

Ciao, Sic.

So any chance there could be some legal ramifications in their effect and possible cause of sic‘s accident and death. 

be a helluva burden of proof case...

Yeah, no way.

At the end of the day these lunatics still get on a motorcycle and race each other at 200 mph.

Thank you for the reality check  [thumbsup]

Maybe if they were in Italy (remember Senna and the 10+ year investigation into his death that dragged Williams through the courts).

Single tire supplier setups can work but this is a case where it doesn't IMO. When a tire degrades over race distance in a consistent manner, people can adjust and riders who are better at riding on worn tires can make it work better. I'd prefer that over a super consistent tire that doesn't wear but is dangerous for the first 2/3 laps.

THat is true. And it still may happen. as more information pours out about last year's tires, maybe the Italians will bring Bridgestone and Dorna to the table for Sic's death. Never underestimate the Italians' need for revenge.

ESPECIALLY when death is on the line...

sorry...got to channeling Vizzinni there for a second..

that'll never happen.

maybe they should call this guy up?


http://www.ducatinewstoday.com/2012/01/check-out-this-beam-framed-ducati-special/ (http://www.ducatinewstoday.com/2012/01/check-out-this-beam-framed-ducati-special/)

Preziosi: "90 percent of the bike is new"

http://www.motogp.com/en/news/2012/Preziosi%20press%20conference%20wrooom%202012 (http://www.motogp.com/en/news/2012/Preziosi%20press%20conference%20wrooom%202012)


...so, in answer to the title of this thread: everything.

what they are describing makes it sound as if Burgess configured the bike with Ducati's motor....but I guess we shall see.....makes me wonder how much of JB's input is in the end product?

I was thinking, if Ducati would take a GP11, put on some Michelin, Pirelli or anything other than the hard Bridgestones, go to any track from last year and put up some killer times, that it would be a great coup for the company.

wouldn't work.  you can't underestimate the degree to which the GP bikes are designed around the tires.

but i think the point here is that the GP11 can't work with the Bridgestones. so try another set

it's really not that simple  :)

work with me here

Yes, Ducati could spoon on a set of Pirellis or whatever, and run the bike.

What would they gain from it?

creditibility for the panigale

That credibility will come in SBK. I still don't understand all this BS around comparing SBK to MotoGP. All those years that Ducati wasn't really winning any championships in MotoGP but dominated WSBK, did we ever doubt that they were a completely different series? Whenever a new Duc debuts, I always wonder if they go backwards, but they have always proved they have their act together.

because the frame is the motoGP frame.

Ducati bet all the WSBK marbles on the MotoGP program's frame/setup (a setup that failed or is considered a failure). So, yeah, seeing that setup crush with better tires would help the Panigale in my mind. Will WSBK help, sure, but it will still be see as Ducati couldn't compete with that setup at GP level, where Honda and Yamaha could.

Bragging rights and credibility.

http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/racing/ducati-corse-wrooom-desmosedici-snow-tires/#more-27460 (http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/racing/ducati-corse-wrooom-desmosedici-snow-tires/#more-27460)

just amusing...

yeah bet the front end hooked up with those  [thumbsup]

It wouldn't do anything. Seeing the 1199 win will help the 1199, not some prototype bike that is completely different except for a similar frame.

i'm trying to work with you but you are making it impossible  ;)

so you're saying the Panigale ISN'T based on the GP11?  [laugh]

Ducati would rather have you believe it's based on the GP7 ;D

I can't believe we're still asking the "how can the 1199 be successful when the GP11 wasn't?" question.

T O T A L L Y   D I F F E R E N T  B I K E S !!

That's like saying that the 1198 couldn't work great because they GP8 didn't win the championship. Well, it still won races... blah, blah. I get that we're all a bit concerned that the "frameless" concept in GP didn't work out but the "frameless" concept wasn't the issue. Did anyone else see the quote from Rossi/Ducati saying that switching between the "frameless" CF chassis, the Al "frameless" and the 11ty billion other variations of the chassis didn't actually change the feedback of the bike all that much? They've had to redesign the bike completely to allow themselves the ability to even know where to start. If it were just the "frameless" issues, they wouldn't have had to do that. In the case of GP, when they're struggling with the tires (and other things), the "frameless" concept doesn't work because they can't adjust the bike enough.

/rant

Exact same frame tech. whether cf or al. short feont subframeless whatever they want to call it

like i said. put new tires on the gp11 and prove the tech works

(http://ridermagz.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/Ducati-1199-Panigale-frame-without-fairing-4.jpg)

(http://photos.motogp.com/2009/04/15/_gix7815_03_slideshow_169.jpg)

I betting the farm on latest Bridgestone tires no worky on the GP11, 11.5, etc. being a huge year long problem. Hell, even the Suzook seem to go OK on them once Bautista got in gear by mid season.

Sure, the Duc had major teething problems compared to the Hondas but I'm just thinking that not only were the Hondas more sorted from the get go but they also worked so much better on the 'stones compared to the GP11. In the old days Ducati could have gotten Bridgestone to build them a tire for the frameless GP11... see 2007 season. ;) Spec tires are a blessing and a curse. It's interesting that you don't see the tires being such an issue with Pirelli and WSBK teams. But that's apples and oranges.

Just hope for better luck in 2012 for Ducati, Rossi and The Kid. Don't want to see them chasing the CRT bikes all season. [bang] :P

My impression from the article is that the biggest 'change' in the GP12 is that it is hyper-adjustable; even the angle between the heads on the engine!  Sounds far more like a test bike than a racing bike...  [coffee]

sounds more like every other bike on the grid that doesn't have a carbon fiber frame.

I suppose they're all tweakable to some degree for race set-up reasons; Ducati's concept sounds more like desperate groping than fine tuning, or was Ducati just a 'generation' behind last season?

I spose it has happened to the best of them, Yamaha went thru a period of struggling with chatter, Honda went thru a period of the frame too flexi after being too ridgid and the power twisting the chassis. Aprilias light switch motor and crazy lethal computer, Suzulis terrible/lethal computer and ride by wire,  Kawasakis vicious engine and too stiff chassis.


They'll sort it out eventually. (I hope).

you suppose they're all adjustable..?  =)

re a generation behind, they'd been developing the 800 for 4 years.  developing means you refine, refine, refine.  they had just gotten to a place where they didn't have enough room to move, or at least that was rossi and JB's feeling about it.

moving the basline setting more toward the middle of the range of possible adjustments doesn't make it hyper-adjustable.  they only said they moved the needle, not made the scale bigger.  changing the angle of the engine, for one, makes all that possible.

I was replying to derby's comment on my previous post...did I misinterpret what he said?  From the article, it sounded like the Duc has more adjustment points than an Erector Set....the less the engineer knows about the first-principles of his machine the more of a Rube Goldberg it becomes in order to control it.  They're committed to what sounds like a stiff and unpredictable engine/frame configuration, so the rest of the bike has to be tweakable to get it to work as desired.  So, how many variables do these GP bikes typically have - 2, 5, 10, 100?  Is the Duc's range of adjustment more/same/less than the other manufacturers?


Perhaps, but my interpretation of Preziosi's presentation is that very little in this bike is not adjustable (i.e., hyper = many dimensions; it does not mean the degree of each adjustment), which leads me to conclude that they either still don't understand (very much about) how all the chassis/rider parts work together, or are very close to solving the biggest problem(s) but have learned that the bike is so unstable in some areas (of the racing envelope) that it's taking this level of refinement to sort it out to everyone's satisfaction.  That's not a bad thing, cause if they can work it out they may have a wonderful bike when they're done.

Goes back to the old discussion about Casey and the Duc....rider or bike.  It may turn out that was the perfect storm (tires excluded) that no one could predict or duplicate - serendipity at its finest.

Hoping they work it out, too, as Rossi and Nicky are both too good to be wallowing out the ends of their careers in 8th place for technical reasons beyond their control.

if 2012 goes like 2011, you can be guaran-damn-teed that you'll see rossi on a japanese bike in 2013.

..or maybe an Aprilia CRTish thing  ;)

...anything but the Duc.

'Spose he'd ride a Bimmer with Colin?

If you think Casey had trouble convincing Ducati that the bike was wrong, just talk to a BMW engineer someday to find out how much worse it could have been...

Point taken. ;D

What he said. [thumbsup]

I don't see Rossi leaving Ducati unless someone else offers him a factory ride. No way in hell he goes to a CRT that doesn't have a snowball's chance of winning, regardless of the rider. At least Ducati has the potential.

That is, unless the rules in 2013 allow the CRTs to actually compete for wins.

I think Carmelo is going to *make* it so the CRT bikes are competitive very soon.

He's pissed.

well, lets see what happens with the APE because that will dramatically affect things if it makes any serious kind of headway above other CRT's or on any of the factory bikes...

Carmelo wants the manufacturers to have less input into the rules, so he'll force them to sell the teams the bikes instead of factory/satellite (lease) model. I believe this is similar to what is done in the US. Manufacturers don't actually run any teams, they just sell the equipment.

except in the APE's case, there is a factory Aprilia mech from Max's team on board in the GP paddock for one of the teams....I think for Aspar but I could be mistaken...

It seems that in any race series we always end up saying "except for the Ape".

WELL....they are known for their various attempts to skirt and skate around the rules....

they are definitely an Italian company.

There's Max's excuse for sucking next season. ;D

http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2012/Jan/120119az91qapls7s.htm (http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2012/Jan/120119az91qapls7s.htm)

http://www.gpone.com/index.php/en/201201175877/Top-secret-debut-for-Ducati.html (http://www.gpone.com/index.php/en/201201175877/Top-secret-debut-for-Ducati.html)