Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates

[ducatiz]

Sales are up and climbing.  Ducati doesn't care about us.

I love my Sport Classic but it is a torture rack to ride.  Still, I would never want to sell it.  So I was looking at getting a M796 or a HM796 next month.  I just couldn't decide between the two.  With how this settlement turned out, and with both those bikes having tank problems, I think maybe the choice will be to get an Aprilia Shiver 750, or better still, a Triumph Street Triple R.  Nice job Ducati.

I've personally spoken with about 2 dozen people in UK/Europe with the same issues.  I don't feel the problem will be as pronounced there because people use their bikes a lot more -- so they are cycling fuel thru the tank faster, so any separation or moisture gets passed thru instead of sitting.

However, they are still seeing the problem.  The tanks are also different somewhat -- the venting that is on the US tanks isn't present there.  They vent to atmosphere freely, which may mean the water vapour is breathing out instead of accumulating in the tank.

On the US tanks, there is only ventilation when the engine is running -- the manifolds provide a vacuum to the charcoal canister which then pulls from the tank.  When you stop, the system shuts off and any remaining vapour (gasoline or water or ?) stays.  Heat from the engine rises and warms the tank and condensation, just like in your crankcase, results.

Since the european tanks vent to atmosphere, any pressure that's built up (which aids in condensation (see Boyle's Law) is released.

[stopintime]

Thanks!

Does ethanol absorb maximum moisture all at once or is it a gradual process?

[David Lowenstein]

Am I correct that for those of us who have removed the evaporative canister (in accordance with DMF sticky/tutorial), our tanks are venting in essentially the same way as the stock European tanks?  If so, my bike is one example where conventional venting to atmosphere has not precluded tank swelling 

Dave

However, they are still seeing the problem.  The tanks are also different somewhat -- the venting that is on the US tanks isn't present there.  They vent to atmosphere freely, which may mean the water vapour is breathing out instead of accumulating in the tank.

[scduc]

So after skimming through the proposed settlement, I've come to the conclusion that we are going to get screwed. If I am correct, tanks will only be replaced up to 6 years max. I say if that is the case, then everyone who is approaching the 6 year limit, get your bike to a dealer and get the new tank. Then go at get it coated. Cuz after that we are on our own.

[Howie]

"Auf Wiedersehen, Ducati.  There are two philosophies in Italian and German bikes.  Italian bikes have you adapting to them.  Like anything Italian. . . suits, shoes, cars.  German bikes are like the Silent Servant that takes care of things and caters to you, becoming an extension of you.  You fit the bike every time.  Two philosophies.  Two manufacturers.  Just an observation."    LOL!!!!   I'll be speaking Deutsch for my next ride as well, but not because of the tank issue. I just turned 57 and I'm gettin' too frail to be hauling ass around on a Monster. With a Beemer, I can cruise and also become a little less involved with the bike's maintenance when I'm not riding it.

I wonder, what tank is Ducati using on the new bikes? My friend is trying to decide between a Multistrada and a Moto Guzzi. If Ducati is still using the same tanks, I will advise against the Duc.

Maybe not:
http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=43185.0
nor Triumph:
http://www.triumphrat.net/speed-triple-forum/146633-ethanol-fuel-ruins-speedie-fuel-tank.html
as already stated, Aprilia,
or even MZ:
http://www.mzriders.com/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=4990
it seems Harley isn't immune:


I'm sure there is more out there, but I think there is enough to show this is an industry wide problem.

[DRKWNG]

It's interesting that Triumph has been using nylon tanks on the Speeds for a while now, yet still use metal on the 675 bikes.

[thought]

offhand, is it confirmed that the mts/diavel tanks are not pa6?  i think i remember ducatiz saying that those new models didnt have this issue.

[jwoconnor]

For those that think BMW is any better, you should check out some of the BMW final drive threads online. Poor engineering or QC, hard to say but it can strand you anytime, anywhere. I'd rather have tank deformation, I could still get home.

I'd also like to thank ducatiz for all his efforts on our behalf. No good deed goes unpunished.  

[hillbillypolack]

For those that think BMW is any better, you should check out some of the BMW final drive threads online. Poor engineering or QC, hard to say but it can strand you anytime, anywhere. I'd rather have tank deformation, I could still get home.

I see you have an 07 GS. Has it left you stranded?  Any issues?  I own two BMWs, an 07 GS and a Megamoto. Zero issues. In fact, just got back from an all-day on the GS and didn't feel like I needed a chiropractor. Bike performed flawlessly.  YMMV.

I don't put stock in 'Internet rumors' since there are variables that contribute to each issue (scheduled maintenance, abusing the bike, extreme conditions, etc). I may have a different take if I had a final drive fail on the GS, but I'm just not seeing it. Of course if I have an issue that's being discussed, my ears perk up accordingly and see how it can be resolved.

Also on your GS, how many service bulletins did you get from BMW, on the ring antenna, brake line routing, and CANBUS wiring?  Those were pre-emptive fixes that BMW thought best to address before (or if) they snowballed.

Ducati?  No such notification. So how does that reflect on how you are valued as an owner of a BMW or a Ducati?  Based on owning an S2R and a GS, it's clear to me which manufacturer values me after the sale has been completed.  That's how I draw that conclusion.

[WetDuc]

This whole thing is good and messy now.
I don't feel much better after reading the document, but I do wonder what the heck these modified parts will look like.  New hindge, shorter seat? huh?
Coating after 6 years does seem like the only option.  It's not horrible, but sucks to some extent to have to do it.

[hillbillypolack]

Just for my curiosity, I asked a number of tooling engineers here what it would cost to create a set of tools to make a gas tank. 

We assumed the tank is split lengthwise (evidenced by the flash and standing ridge at the hinge detail on most Ducati tanks), and involves a pressure / blowmolding operation, insert bosses for tank stops and fuel pump nuts. Post manufacturing work to mill a flush mount for the fuel pump or bore the sleeve for the tank hinge pivot etc.  Paintable finish, but not completely Class A quality on all surfaces (underneath as one example area).

Total tooling estimate:  $350,000 +/- 10% for a low production set of tools, low run rate (meaning these aren't being kicked out every 5 seconds).

This is 'if' Ducati needed to re-tool for a different polymer specification.  Now I'm unsure about the total Ducati paid to fight this situation, but it would seem to me that a check for 350k (give or take) would have remedied this with far more positive results.

[ducpainter]

Just for my curiosity, I asked a number of tooling engineers here what it would cost to create a set of tools to make a gas tank. 

We assumed the tank is split lengthwise (evidenced by the flash and standing ridge at the hinge detail on most Ducati tanks), and involves a pressure / blowmolding operation, insert bosses for tank stops and fuel pump nuts. Post manufacturing work to mill a flush mount for the fuel pump or bore the sleeve for the tank hinge pivot etc.  Paintable finish, but not completely Class A quality on all surfaces (underneath as one example area).

Total tooling estimate:  $350,000 +/- 10% for a low production set of tools, low run rate (meaning these aren't being kicked out every 5 seconds).

This is 'if' Ducati needed to re-tool for a different polymer specification.  Now I'm unsure about the total Ducati paid to fight this situation, but it would seem to me that a check for 350k (give or take) would have remedied this with far more positive results.

What are the associated costs of governmental approvals...and I'm not talking bribes.

If they change the material they have to re-certify it in every country.

I don't see there being a simple answer.

[hillbillypolack]

What are the associated costs of governmental approvals...and I'm not talking bribes.

If they change the material they have to re-certify it in every country.

I don't see there being a simple answer.

I suppose there could be costs for revalidation, which I'd like to know more about (again, for my curiosity).  I wonder of it's as academic as filing paperwork, and getting it through the system, or if there are substantial fees involved.

[Curmudgeon]

I suppose there could be costs for revalidation, which I'd like to know more about (again, for my curiosity).  I wonder of it's as academic as filing paperwork, and getting it through the system, or if there are substantial fees involved.

No idea about a bike, but for a car it was ~ $3,000.000 total for both USDOT & NHTSA ten years ago. The cars are even hot and cold soaked in a cabinet in Flint, Michigan to verify "residual" emissions. The process is ugly.

You pay a heavy "tax" from these regulations on every vehicle you buy. Time for another revolution? 

[ducatiz]

No idea about a bike, but for a car it was ~ $3,000.000 total for both USDOT & NHTSA ten years ago. The cars are even hot and cold soaked in a cabinet in Flint, Michigan to verify "residual" emissions. The process is ugly.

You pay a heavy "tax" from these regulations on every vehicle you buy. Time for another revolution? 

Same type of process for bikes.  SHED testing, crash testing, etc.  Theyhave to do it for each model.