Who's tried timing belts from ca-cycleworks?

[redial]

i have not used the belts from them but in general CA-cycle is a great shop with great stuff.

my comments only pertain to what i read yesterday while browsing the belts section of
LT snyders famous maintenance book.

if i remember correctly he singles out the ca-cycleworks shop as having a great alternative to
pricey oem belts.

HOWEVER, RE: SQUARE TEETH
he specifically shows profile of the belts, mentioning that some ducatis run round teeth and some run square teeth. and while they might WORK interchangeably, they will have reduced life and more prone to breaking.

Thats just what is says in the book. whether people in this thread are talking about the incorrect
belt or simply just a slight variation in the mold, i cannot say.

[mitt]

HOWEVER, RE: SQUARE TEETH
he specifically shows profile of the belts, mentioning that some ducatis run round teeth and some run square teeth. and while they might WORK interchangeably, they will have reduced life and more prone to breaking.

Thats just what is says in the book. whether people in this thread are talking about the incorrect
belt or simply just a slight variation in the mold, i cannot say.

Yea, I think LT will have to update his book.  The older non-oem belts ca-cycleworks sold were squareish.  The new ones are not.  Chris has a video on ca-cycleworks showing the difference between the old and new aftermarket belts.  It is good watching.  FYI - that is the reason he calls his new ones "exact fit".


Ducatitech.com: ExactFit Belt Comparison (HD)

or you can find it on here

http://www.ca-cycleworks.com/exactfit/



mitt

[Christian]

Videos like that are one of the many reasons I dig Ca Cycleworks.

[silversled]

I just received a set for my S2R1K.  They look identical to the stockers but my experience with the OEM is that the stockers have a more consistent (shiny) finish on the smooth backside.  This has no bearing on performance but may be a leading indicator of the quality of the manufacturing/handling process compared to the OEM.  Other than that, they appear to be the same. 

Uhm, anyone notice the "Made in P.R.C." marking?  I'm sure they are fine and will go on my bike anyways. 

If Chris is listening, I'd like to know what kind of durability testing they or their vendor has done (eg. ASTM D378 or SAE J2432 methods or similar).  If the vendor is a global supplier of belts then they should have done this evaluation. It would be valuable to post those reports considering Ducati owners are typically critical about the quality of the parts they put on their bikes.  As an engineer, an uncontrolled static test of lifting a van does not characterize product performance unless the belt is intended for lifting. It is just marketing.  Static and durability performance are different things. I'm more concerned about how long the lamination of materials lasts when tensioned to provide a 100-140hz static natural frequency and rotating for hundreds of thousand times.

Just my .02. 

 

[Raux]

oh sure, Silversled, post logic AFTER I ordered mine

[mitt]

I just received a set for my S2R1K.  They look identical to the stockers but my experience with the OEM is that the stockers have a more consistent (shiny) finish on the smooth backside.  This has no bearing on performance but may be a leading indicator of the quality of the manufacturing/handling process compared to the OEM.  Other than that, they appear to be the same. 

Uhm, anyone notice the "Made in P.R.C." marking?  I'm sure they are fine and will go on my bike anyways. 

If Chris is listening, I'd like to know what kind of durability testing they or their vendor has done (eg. ASTM D378 or SAE J2432 methods or similar).  If the vendor is a global supplier of belts then they should have done this evaluation. It would be valuable to post those reports considering Ducati owners are typically critical about the quality of the parts they put on their bikes.  As an engineer, an uncontrolled static test of lifting a van does not characterize product performance unless the belt is intended for lifting. It is just marketing.  Static and durability performance are different things. I'm more concerned about how long the lamination of materials lasts when tensioned to provide a 100-140hz static natural frequency and rotating for hundreds of thousand times.

Just my .02. 
 

You summed up my feelings as well.

mitt

[silversled]

I just received a set for my S2R1K.  They look identical to the stockers but my experience with the OEM is that the stockers have a more consistent (shiny) finish on the smooth backside.  This has no bearing on performance but may be a leading indicator of the quality of the manufacturing/handling process compared to the OEM.  Other than that, they appear to be the same.  

Uhm, anyone notice the "Made in P.R.C." marking?  I'm sure they are fine and will go on my bike anyways.  

If Chris is listening, I'd like to know what kind of durability testing they or their vendor has done (eg. ASTM D378 or SAE J2432 methods or similar).  If the vendor is a global supplier of belts then they should have done this evaluation. It would be valuable to post those reports considering Ducati owners are typically critical about the quality of the parts they put on their bikes.  As an engineer, an uncontrolled static test of lifting a van does not characterize product performance unless the belt is intended for lifting. It is just marketing.  Static and durability performance are different things. I'm more concerned about how long the lamination of materials lasts when tensioned to provide a 100-140hz static natural frequency and rotating for hundreds of thousand times.

Just my .02.  

Please note that I am absolutely not claiming that the ExactFit belts are substandard in any way or that they do not meet or exceed OEM specs.  I have no proof, test data, or real world experience with these belts to make such claims.  From our collective experience with CA Cycleworks we would expect these to be good quality alternatives.  Chris and his gang have always worked hard and done their homework on the products they provide the Ducati community.  As such my ExactFit belts are going on my bike BUT with close monitoring at every oil change (2000 miles) due to lack of objective evidence of test results or a sufficiently large sampling of in-field service history by the Ducati community.  

My previous post was to make some initial observations upon receiving the belts that others have not offerred already.   In my industry (aerospace) we never release new products without performing accelerated life cyle testing.  Not doing these qualifications would put my company at an unacceptable level of liability.  The life or death of our engines hinge on the durability of these rubber bands.  

[Mr Earl]

Hmmm...

I've been paying $44 ea to Ca-Cycleworks for Ducati-branded, Gates-made belts.

Now the deal is Chinese-made, untested & unguaranteed (as far as the description goes, anyway) belts for $39.15 (for my bike.)

To me, this <$5 discount is not worth the trade-off.  No prob, I say to myself, I'll just buy the Ducati-branded belts from Ca-Cycleworks like I have before.  Oops, no longer offered.

So, just speculating here, the Chinese belts can be sold at $40 with a much healthier profit margin than the Gates belts.  That's fine, I have no objection to making money.  Just wish I still had the choice of the Gates belts @$44.  Ducati Omaha wants $59 ea.  Guess it's time to do some searching.

[krista]

Hey Everyone,

I just found this thread... 

Mine work fine.  Installed them about 3000 miles ago.  I remember the shape of the grooves was slightly more squared the rounded, and I called them up to make sure that nothing was amiss.  They reassured me, I installed them, no probs.  

Yes, those were the Bucci belts. They are actually made in Italy.

Are you SURE that the tooth profile was different?   I'm pretty sure it needs to be identical to the factory belts and match the pulley tooth profile exactly. 

If I remember right - the "squarer" tooth ones are the older aftermarket belts several online retailers and some dealers sold.

The newer ones that are geometrically identical to OEM are made and sold exclusive for ca-cycleworks. 
mitt

You guys are all correct. The Bucci 900 belts did have a different profile (and pitch...) but for all the noise we made up and down the sales chain-of-supply, we were told Va Bene (it's ok) every time. And in the couple thousand Bucci belts we sold, I am not aware of a single failure.

Yea, I think LT will have to update his book.  The older non-oem belts ca-cycleworks sold were squareish.  The new ones are not.  Chris has a video on ca-cycleworks showing the difference between the old and new aftermarket belts.  It is good watching.  FYI - that is the reason he calls his new ones "exact fit". ... you can find it on here http://www.ca-cycleworks.com/exactfit/
mitt

Egggs-Zactly. More about things I have learned about timing belts in my next post...  And wow, I am really thankful timing belts as a technology is far more robust than we realize... because we shouldn't have sold those Bucci 900 belts. They were just plain wrong and never should be on our bikes...

[krista]

Hi silversled,

Thanks for writing! I am replying to this thread and I will assume no one has seen the .ms thread about our belts?

I just received a set for my S2R1K.  They look identical to the stockers but my experience with the OEM is that the stockers have a more consistent (shiny) finish on the smooth backside.  This has no bearing on performance but may be a leading indicator of the quality of the manufacturing/handling process compared to the OEM.  Other than that, they appear to be the same. 

Uhm, anyone notice the "Made in P.R.C." marking?  I'm sure they are fine and will go on my bike anyways. 

If Chris is listening, I'd like to know what kind of durability testing they or their vendor has done (eg. ASTM D378 or SAE J2432 methods or similar).  If the vendor is a global supplier of belts then they should have done this evaluation. It would be valuable to post those reports considering Ducati owners are typically critical about the quality of the parts they put on their bikes.  As an engineer, an uncontrolled static test of lifting a van does not characterize product performance unless the belt is intended for lifting. It is just marketing.  Static and durability performance are different things. I'm more concerned about how long the lamination of materials lasts when tensioned to provide a 100-140hz static natural frequency and rotating for hundreds of thousand times.

"If Chris is listening" ... I must say this is a bit of a pet-peeve of mine: people never actually communicate with the companies that make parts. I am working on our MTT43 tanks. Thankfully, someone emailed us directly to let us know this thread is here and I got pulled out of the shop. If you don't TELL ME something, please don't expect me to hear it. It bugs me when people rip on a product and when I ask "Did you talk to them about it?" and the answer is almost always "no, they don't care". Really? Every vendor whose parts we sell definitely care about when customers have problems. And me? I care way too much.

We have had a set of belts with already over 80,000,000 (yes eighty million) revolutions. They were juuuust fine. That's about 12,000 miles at 5000 rpm assuming an average speed of 45mph. They were on a Multistrada and were removed at 12890 miles during a routine service. He was going to run them to 20,000 miles but we asked if he would please send them back in for analysis and comparison. He'll do 20k on the replacements we sent him.

All throughout the process for these belts, I stressed that best of industry practice be applied at every opportunity or decision. The belts are made for a US company who specifies manufacturing process, materials, and parameters for the belts at a factory they have a long history with. A factory that has the capacity to make 80,000 belts per day and provides belts for all sectors of industry.

The concept I had to wrap my mind around during the 2 year wind-up to bringing these to market was how over-engineered belts are and how much stronger timing belts are than we realize. These belts have the capacity to run tens of thousands of hours. Ducati's spec has the belts changed with well under 300 hours of use. Belts are so much stronger than our bikes need. Upon going over the situation with engineering, it became apparent that anything a rational human does to set their belts, the belts will work quite well for 2 years or 12,000 miles. When I quizzed engineering with the hypothetical "What if Ducati's spec of 110hz applied to our belts makes them too tight?", the answer was amazing: "Even if the frequency spec differs, they won't be so far mal-adjusted that it matters. And if they're too tight, that's great, they are safer that way."

With every question I ask, I realize that standard practice for how the belts are used and treated on our Ducati is actually worst practice in the belt industry. Two examples...
Ducati practice ... best of industry practice
Use belt sprockets forever ... Change sprockets with every (or every other) belt change
Use aluminum sprockets ... Never, ever use aluminum sprockets

The first example is almost excusable when you look at the bigger picture and see that our usage is as little as 1/100th of the life expectancy of this class of belts. The belts DO wear down the steel sprockets, but even really high milage Ducatis will have sprockets only slightly used up. The second example is scary. Until I showed the marketing propaganda on how the 848 comes stock with aluminum sprockets, our manufacturer did not believe me when I said people use aluminum sprockets. Even with hard anodize, our manufacturer consider aluminum to be unacceptable and with zero life expectancy.

I do know the Chinese factory making our belts has ISO9000 certification; however ASTM D378 and SAE J2432 do not apply to automotive timing belts. Automotive timing belts are designed to be non-elastic and they are not at all V belts or ribbed belts. In normal use, they don't change length with temperature or stretch. What makes belts appear to become tighter as an engine warms up is the distance between the sprockets increasing because the engine expands.

Your ASTM/SAE question is great and I will forward to engineering. As far as quality control and testing, here is info about the rubber itself:
I checked the rubber hardness of the OEM belt versus our belt. The few OEM belts we have vary in hardness from 76 to 89 and that is a terrible variation indicating a wide quality variation. Our belts checked from 77 to 79 which is FANTASTIC uniformity. This is on the official Shore A rubber hardness scale. We use an official  Durometer that is the International Standard Instrument used to measure the hardness of rubber or rubber-like materials. Durometers measure hardness by the penetration of an indentor into the rubber sample. The calibrated reading is expressed in a number value. The higher the number the harder the material.

When the belts arrive into the US from China, they are measured for overall length at the US belt supplier's facility. Good practice industry variation allows 0.010". He says Gates keep it around 0.005", and ours are at 0.002". We are talking about thousandths of an inch when measured across belts of lengths from 22 to 35 inches in length.

In case you are worried about our sales rep, aka "engineering", he is the president of the US Belt distributor and in response to some of the discussion between us resulting from the other forum's thread:
As a side note this topic [ frequency adjustment of belts ] was my dissertation in college for a Masters degree, so I pretty much know what I am talking about on this subject
Since I brought up frequency testing, we are currently recommending 110 hz on the belts initial setting, same as Ducati. And as we learn more, we may amend this.
What we must do [ is test with ] a sonic meter. I will place one OE belt and one of our belts on my test stand, which can place EXACTLY the same load at the same time on both belts. I will then set the OE belt to 110 HZ (Ducati Recommended) and see what frequency ours is at exactly the same actual belt tension. That way we at least know how to have our belts set correctly.

The equation used behind the scenes by all belt tension frequency meters, including the one that Ducati sells/uses is one based on string tension theory. This calculates the belt tension from the frequency reading IGNORING both belt bending rigidity and belt axial rigidity. In our case the belt tensioning should be based on beam theory which takes bending and axial stiffness into account. By performing my test ... we can take this into account and get the proper reading for our belt. No two manufacturers' belts are ever the same so this is not suprising.

Please note that I am absolutely not claiming that the ExactFit belts are substandard in any way or that they do not meet or exceed OEM specs.  I have no proof, test data, or real world experience with these belts to make such claims.  From our collective experience with CA Cycleworks we would expect these to be good quality alternatives.  Chris and his gang have always worked hard and done their homework on the products they provide the Ducati community.  As such my ExactFit belts are going on my bike BUT with close monitoring at every oil change (2000 miles) due to lack of objective evidence of test results or a sufficiently large sampling of in-field service history by the Ducati community. 

My previous post was to make some initial observations upon receiving the belts that others have not offerred already.   In my industry (aerospace) we never release new products without performing accelerated life cyle testing.  Not doing these qualifications would put my company at an unacceptable level of liability.  The life or death of our engines hinge on the durability of these rubber bands. 

"Please note that I am absolutely not claiming ..." <--- this common idiom type of disclaimer is poor form. Kind of like "I'm not saying this to insult you, but..."

The problem I have is that you are bringing up theoretical concepts which could be irrelevant to the product and task at hand. These kinds of issues Ducati owners are raising take the timing belt industry to task over problems solved long ago and no longer of concern. It's like going into Home Depot and quoting obscure standards or references for their nails. Or screws. You get the idea. You are an engineer. come up with the testing protocol and we can discuss supplying you with belts for your experiments and testing at no charge.

Now, being that I've been selling parts to Ducati owners for over a decade, I foresaw lots of these questions and issues and we are already working on providing relevant real-world tests. I definitely understand that the perception of the belts is important. Their function won't be a problem at all, so we are working on more "marketing", like ISO9000, beam-theory measurements, rubber durometer comparisons, material analysis, and Instron testing. The van-lifted-by-forklift test might not be very scientific to you, but it let me know our belts are plenty strong.

Thanks,
Chris

[mitt]

Thanks for all the additional information Chris.  Before you know it, you are going to be making parts for Ducati themselves!

mitt

[krista]

The concept I had to wrap my mind around during the 2 year wind-up to bringing these to market was how over-engineered belts are and how much stronger timing belts are than we realize. These belts have the capacity to run tens of thousands of hours. Ducati's spec has the belts changed with well under 300 hours of use. Belts are so much stronger than our bikes need. Upon going over the situation with engineering, it became apparent that anything a rational human does to set their belts, the belts will work quite well for 2 years or 12,000 miles.   ...
With every question I ask, I realize that standard practice for how the belts are used and treated on our Ducati is actually worst practice in the belt industry.

And this is exactly why the Bucci belts worked. As it turned out, they were OK. Why? Because timing belts are over-kill. There's a reason the belt industry calls them "poly-chain". Yeah, the Bucci belts are OK ... but they fall in the column of shouldn't do that. I feel like we all dodged a bullet with those. They were on 3 bikes in my house for lots and lots of miles.

And they are why ExactFit are the best made belts money can buy me. I won't say that our belts are better than OEM ... as both are more than strong enough to run well. I do know there aspects of one or two of the OEM belts that are not as robust as ours, but if they are 10 times better than we need, then maybe ExactFit belts are 10.1 times better. Both are job well done. 

My goal was to bring great quality belts to the market with fair pricing and availability so that no Ducati owner will have to wait for belts and there are quite a few dealers stocking them.

Gotta run -- late for dinner!

Thanks,
Chris

[Christian]

Thanks for the info, Chris! I've got a set on their way to me right now.

[Raux]

Ummm
"Use aluminum sprockets ... Never, ever use aluminum sprockets

The first example is almost excusable when you look at the bigger picture and see that our usage is as little as 1/100th of the life expectancy of this class of belts. The belts DO wear down the steel sprockets, but even really high milage Ducatis will have sprockets only slightly used up. The second example is scary. Until I showed the marketing propaganda on how the 848 comes stock with aluminum sprockets, our manufacturer did not believe me when I said people use aluminum sprockets. Even with hard anodize, our manufacturer consider aluminum to be unacceptable and with zero life expectancy."

Does he mean the Ergal cam rollers?

[krista]

Yes, he does mean that. Ergal is essentially T7 aluminum alloy.