Ducatiz's Filter Forensics (you will like this)

[fasterblkduc]

Nice work Ducatiz. I work in Research and Development for a filtration company and I've had experience with most of the companies that you tested there. The term you were looking for in regards to number of folds is called, pleat count. If you want to make another comparison, measure the depth of the pleats, length of media, number of pleats. You can then calculate your effective media area. The area of the media plays a role in how well the filter performs, and the pressure drop across the element. There is a sweet spot, more media is good but too much is bad. It depends on the media as well as application.

Your analysis of the media by looking at it is close but not always true. The media is getting pretty high tech, but I can't talk about that...sorry but I work on a lot of media development and I'm sworn to secrecy.

You're correct about the springs...they all work fine.

I'm not a fan of Amsoil oil but I can tell you that their oil and air filters are the best because of the media they use. The media is made by another company and no one else has anything that performs as well. I recommend cutting one of those open as well.

As far as your flow tests that you would like to perform, I see thousands of results from those. I see all of the efficiency, capacity, pressure drop , etc. tests on a daily basis. Unfortunately, I can't talk about them. My above paragraph is my little secret about the best media out there.

I could say some things about air filters too For starters, don't use K&N unless it's a race motor only. The media is nothing but a rock catcher. I use it in my racebikes but that's it. Expect shorter engine life. If you are using one...be sure to keep that sucker oiled.

Nice work

[ducatiz]

Got a couple of emails asking if I wanted other filters -- yes.

here are some I am interested in:

AmSoil
Wix/NAPA
Ducati factory (different part #s -- different suppliers)
UFI (also one of the suppliers for the Ducati factory filter)
Champion (common in UK/Europe)
Athena (also one of the suppliers for the Ducati, I have some just can't put my hands on them)

I published a cross-reference list ages ago. (see below, I found it..)  It is (was) a fairly long list of filters with the same specs as the Ducati filter -- size, pressure, etc.  But some of the filter model #s might be dated, so don't go hog wild looking for them:

US available: (near exact, works fine)
Purolator ML16829C (was FC 103 or OC 5)
AC Delco FX0011 (was X4A)
Motorcraft EFL 47
NAPA: 1352 (1352NAPA and 551352 on the box)
Cooper Z64

Non US:
UFI 23.105.00
Champion H101
Powertrain FL125
Fiaam FT4654, FT 4847 or PA7059
Purflux LS187
Halfords HOF216
Tecafilter Ref OC5
Technocar R12, R72, R434
Knecht OC 5
TJ FB2094
Mann & H W712/9, W712/11
Unipart GFE 201

[ducatiz]

Nice work Ducatiz. I work in Research and Development for a filtration company and I've had experience with most of the companies that you tested there. The term you were looking for in regards to number of folds is called, pleat count. If you want to make another comparison, measure the depth of the pleats, length of media, number of pleats. You can then calculate your effective media area. The area of the media plays a role in how well the filter performs, and the pressure drop across the element. There is a sweet spot, more media is good but too much is bad. It depends on the media as well as application.

my next task is to unroll the elements and do some better measurements.  i figured i might also be able to tell more about the materials.

Your analysis of the media by looking at it is close but not always true. The media is getting pretty high tech, but I can't talk about that...sorry but I work on a lot of media development and I'm sworn to secrecy.

You're correct about the springs...they all work fine.

I'm not a fan of Amsoil oil but I can tell you that their oil and air filters are the best because of the media they use. The media is made by another company and no one else has anything that performs as well. I recommend cutting one of those open as well.

As far as your flow tests that you would like to perform, I see thousands of results from those. I see all of the efficiency, capacity, pressure drop , etc. tests on a daily basis. Unfortunately, I can't talk about them. My above paragraph is my little secret about the best media out there.

I could say some things about air filters too For starters, don't use K&N unless it's a race motor only. The media is nothing but a rock catcher. I use it in my racebikes but that's it. Expect shorter engine life. If you are using one...be sure to keep that sucker oiled.

Nice work

thanks!

[Ddan]

Amsoil on it's way to you.

[koko64]

Greatly appreciated !

[scott_araujo]

I was buying Fram filters for my Honda Civic for a while.  That little rubber grip stuff on the end is nice.  One day the counter guy asked if I really wanted that filter.  He showed me a few they had cut open and the Fram was obviously inferior.   Since then I get Wix for the car and Ducati OEM for the bike.

Scott

[RB]

very nice work!!
Thank you for the impressive analysis.

[Rock Store]

Ducatitiz,this may be of some help to you,
http://tobycreek.org/oil_filters/ducati.shtml
http://www.calsci.com/motorcycleinfo/FilterStudy.html
later..RS

[ducpainter]

Ducatitiz,<snip>

Sorry RS...

 

[seevtsaab]

As I remember, the biiiiiig issue with the Fram was the inability of the filter media to withstand Ducati oil pressure (up to 6 bar), sending the media through the engine and possibly causing sudden engine death.  Fram was a quality filter until sometime around 1990 when they were bought by Allied Signal.

I Love little tidbits of info like this, not so much slamming on Fram (which seem to be universally acknowledged as horrible filters) but there it is.

Ditto the PVC discussion.

[Howie]

Fram just might make high quality filters for the OEM, or not, dunno.  Back when I was working on BMW cars OEM filters were made by both Purolator and Mann.  The aftermarket Purolator filters for those cars were, well, crap.  When in doubt, use OEM.  Otherwise, filter your choices by using sources like Toby Creek, Cal Sci and this board.  Saving a couple of bucks on an inferior product just ain't worth it in the long run.

[rockaduc]

Fram just might make high quality filters for the OEM, or not, dunno.  Back when I was working on BMW cars OEM filters were made by both Purolator and Mann.  The aftermarket Purolator filters for those cars were, well, crap.  When in doubt, use OEM.  Otherwise, filter your choices by using sources like Toby Creek, Cal Sci and this board.  Saving a couple of bucks on an inferior product just ain't worth it in the long run.

Oh!  I LOVE bad puns!!! 

[bigiain]

I could say some things about air filters too For starters, don't use K&N unless it's a race motor only. The media is nothing but a rock catcher. I use it in my racebikes but that's it. Expect shorter engine life. If you are using one...be sure to keep that sucker oiled.

Interesting... What exactly are you seeing in the K&N that makes you say that? I'm _guessing_ it's a coarser filter than the OEM paper one, but I recall reading that an oiled cotton filter just works differently, in that it relies on the oil grabbing the fine particles rather than the filter working as a barrier that stops them "fitting through". There used to be a website with a writeup of a test where they fed some fine dust (maybe talcum powder?) through a selection of motorcycle air filters and measured the flow rate/pressure drop across them, as well as the volume of dust that made it through the filter. The somewhat surprising result was that the OEM Ducati paper filter flowed more air (ie lower pressure drop) when brand new, but dropped below the air flow of the K&N when only a little dirty, and for 85% or so of the useful life it flowed less air than the K&N while only filtering marginally more dust...

FWIW, I've got ~250,000km (about 160k miles) on my motor with a K&N air filter (I put it in at the first 20,000km service). The motor is still running strong - or at least as strong as you'd expect an asthmatic air cooled two valve low compression 750 motor to run ;-) It rattles and clunks a bit, but nothing unexpected from an 11 year old 270,000+ km old motor...

I clean and re-oil it reasonably regularly - not as regularly as my 5000km (3k mile) oil changes, but probably at least every 10,000km or ~twice a year...

big

[RB]

I am trying to order more Baldwin filters for my bike, as she needs an oil change and i donated my last filter for this great cause.
As i was talking to my friend that has a Baldwin account, he mentioned i may need to order a case of them because they aren't stocking them(not sure why).
Would anyone like to go in on a case of these filters? Depending on interest, i don't need a case, will determine how many filters we each get out of a case, and cost. I will check on shipping costs for filters, or arrange local exchanges.

Please PM me if interested so we don't clog up this thread.

RB

[redial]

very cool thread i always enjoy reading things like this.

Even with out flow diagnosis its a great read,
whats next on the list of things to break open and scrutinize?