The PCV with Autotune thread......

[ungeheuer]

From what Raux seems to be saying is that the PCV itself further manipulates the closed loop parameters?? That would be total news to me. Perhaps the "bypass function" he is referring to is the O2 optimizers?

Lets be clear about this:  Without having had your ECU flashed to delete the stock closed loop, your PCV can only control fuelling outside that part of the mapping, i.e. in the open loop.  If you go take a look at the mapping downloads on Dynojet's website you'll see that in the stock closed loop area no values are input, which when running stock closed loop is the correct format.  So, any values you entered in the closed loop section, lets say to add additional fuel, would simply be over-ridden by the ECU as the stock 02 sensors reported back that things were too rich.  PCV says add fuel, ECU says take it away again.  We're just talking in the closed loop here.  

To get around this inability to control fuelling in the closed loop, the optimisers which Dynojet supplies with PCV plug inline between the stock O2 sensors and the ECU, to modify the value of the data reported back to the ECU by the O2 sensors.  Stock O2s are like on/off switches, reporting back to the ECU either "lean" or "rich" around an AFR of 14.7:1.  The optimisers adjust this threshold (from memory to something like 13.6:1) causing the ECU to fuel a little more in the closed loop.  But this is not "tuning" IMO, its just shifting the cut off point by a fixed amount.  Raux is telling us that its possible to select a different fixed +/- value by adjusting the VRs on the optimisers - but you'd need to find out from Dynojet the effects of changing the VRs.

As I mentioned, I'm wanting to run the OEM O2 sensors and also mount up the AT-100. I now have a dilemma as to where to weld in the bungs.

What do you think?

If you really want to know.....  I think running 4x o2 sensors is a pointless exercise.

[Raux]

if you don't have an ecu with the o2 sensors turned off, you need to run 4 o2 to run the autotune. if you are using the autotune with one sensor i would put it on the single midpipe area. the double i would put them also on the midpipe right before the joining point.

as for the fuel mixture, they chose that mixture as a good optimization of fuel economy and power. so going a bit richer might give you a bit more ooomph but poor fuel economy.

[loopsrider]

Yes, I'm aware that the PCV system will be basically inoperative during closed loop other than the enrichment circuit of the optimizers (which I now know can be fine tuned). To you guys it probably seems like I'm pissing in the wind since a major percentage of actual run time is closed loop. Let me explain...

 You need to remember the entire PCV/Autotune susyem is originally designed to operate with a fully OEM ECU. That is how I prefer to install it to begin with to see the gains.... future plans will include a reflash. Pretty easy to throw a couple plugs in the aftermarket bungs, pull the OEM sensors, and slip the Autotune ones in...

It drives me absolutely nuts when I see people completely modify a system without doing it in stages (when possible) to see where the gains are.... . I don't mean to be a dick but I spend half my day at work with an automotive scan tool in my hand on way more complicated systems. This is pretty basic stuff similar to pre-1995 OBDI automotive systems... my confusion was when someone on here was telling me the closed loop could in fact be manipulated. I now know they were referring to manipulating the optimizers via internal dip switches... that is not public information.


My only concern now is sensor placement... I'm thinking mounting the sensors too close to the Y-pipe may negate the fact I'm using the AT-100 dual sensor system by causing the sensors to sample exhaust from both cylinders. The only other option on the front cylinder header is to mount it ahead of the OEM sensor... I'm not sure I like that idea as I'm wondering if it will cause erratic readings at the OEM sensor during closed loop due to exhaust flow around the Autotune sensor. In reality it probably wouldn't... just was wondering opinions before I cut into my system...

[ungeheuer]

if you don't have an ecu with the o2 sensors turned off, you need to run 4 o2 to run the autotune.

Yes, I understand that if the stock closed loop is retained and you also want to run autotune... then the result is 4 lambda probes. 

It drives me absolutely nuts when I see people completely modify a system without doing it in stages (when possible) to see where the gains are....

I completely agree with your logic (although I dont worry about going nuts about what other people do  ).  I started with an exhaust system, then modified intake with mapped PCV, stock closed loop + optimisers, then ECU reflash and only then Autotune.  So I do understand your reasoning.

My only concern now is sensor placement... The only other option on the front cylinder header is to mount it ahead of the OEM sensor...

Why not mount your front autotune sensor much closer to the exhaust port than the stock o2?  I just checked and my M1100 full system stock mounting point for the front o2 (into which I have now have my autotune sensor) is just 350mm from the head, which on 696 (we are talking 696 aren't we?) would put it just ahead of the front header heat shield.

[Amlethae]

Oy,  just got this email from Power Commander:

The stock o2 sensors are disabled when you get the DP ECU. So with the DP ECU, you do not have to worry about any o2 optimizers and you can tune anywhere in the RPM band with the PC5 and/or Auto-tune. The stock o2 sensors can be taken completely off the bike if you wish.
 
If you plan to add Auto-tune you will more than likely need to weld in a bung for the new wideband o2 sensors. I do not believe your bike is equipped with 18mm x 1.5 bungs. This is the size bungs that the Auto-tune o2 sensors need.

What's the word guys?  A) Does the DP ECU (one with Termis) void the O2 sensors by default?  B) Do we have to weld in new bungs?   I want to get this stuff but I don't know that I can deal with the welding side... and having to buy the Rexxer to program out the O2 sensors might possibly put the whole project out of my price range.  Thoughts?

I've got 1100S if that matters.

[DucNaked]

Dp ecu still uses the O2 sensors. The O2 bungs are 18mm. So power commander is wrong on both.

[ungeheuer]

Oy,  just got this email from Power Commander:

Quote
The stock o2 sensors are disabled when you get the DP ECU. So with the DP ECU, you do not have to worry about any o2 optimizers and you can tune anywhere in the RPM band with the PC5 and/or Auto-tune. The stock o2 sensors can be taken completely off the bike if you wish.

Really this came direct from Dynojet?  I'm surprised, coz Chris Kelly is pretty switched on and in relation to M696/M796/M1100 (Siemens ECUs) this advice TOTALLY 100% WRONG.
 

If you plan to add Auto-tune you will more than likely need to weld in a bung for the new wideband o2 sensors. I do not believe your bike is equipped with 18mm x 1.5 bungs. This is the size bungs that the Auto-tune o2 sensors need.

Also completely incorrect.  If you plan to use Autotune (once you've had your ECU reflashed - DP ECU or not - to delete the stock o2 inputs) you do NOT need to weld in new bungs coz the stock bungs ARE 18mm, exactly the correct size to accept the Autotune sensors.

What's the word guys?  A) Does the DP ECU (one with Termis) void the O2 sensors by default?  B) Do we have to weld in new bungs?  

A) = No it does not.  
B) = No (if you already had the stock O2s flashed away)
or
B) = Yes if you want to run Autotune + keep your stock O2s (resulting in 4x O2 senors in total, an option I fail to see the point of).

Dp ecu still uses the O2 sensors. The O2 bungs are 18mm. So power commander is wrong on both.

^^ What DN said  

[loopsrider]

B) = Yes if you want to run Autotune + keep your stock O2s (resulting in 4x O2 senors in total, an option I fail to see the point of).

Tsk tsk... You post your dyno pull with your setup and I'll post mine... I'm betting they will be virtually identical anyway.

[ungeheuer]

Tsk tsk... You post your dyno pull with your setup and I'll post mine... I'm betting they will be virtually identical anyway.

Wasnt intended as a jibe in your direction mate. You have your reasons for your approach.... and I think differently about it. You say the end result will probably be more or less the same and I say "it aint what you do its the way that you do it". I'm not wrong and neither are you  .

That's the good thing about opinions  . 

[loopsrider]

Wasnt intended as a jibe in your direction mate. You have your reasons for your approach.... and I think differently about it. You say the end result will probably be more or less the same and I say "it aint what you do its the way that you do it". I'm not wrong and neither are you  .

That's the good thing about opinions  . 

Just messing with you... I've purposely mounted my Autotune sensors in inconspicuous spots to allow them to be capped when I get an ECU reflash and remove my stock sensors. The reflash will have to be next winter as I don't want any downtime this summer. Guess I could find an ECU on E-bay and send it off...

[Amlethae]

Thanks for the info guys!  Yeah Chris was the one that sent me that info... totally seemed contrary to what I had read on this thread so I needed to check.

So what do you guys recommend?  I'd hate to buy the Rexxer unit for so much money just to get a PCV + Autotune as well... I've got a DP ECU (and the stock ECU just chilling in a box) what do you guys recommend I do?

End goal: PCV with AutoTuning, deleted stock O2 sensors, Wasp PUK whenever that happens. 

[Raux]

Send the ecu to a rexxer place, get a DP ECU map with no o2 and a higher RPM limit
Buy the PC V with Autotune

Go with any intake/exhaust system after that

[Enzoman]

I also have an ECU just chillin in a box, if one were to have this "ECU reflashed" where would one send this to and what instructions should be sent along with it? Will they just know what to do with it and will they have DP maps ready to be installed?

 

[Raux]

<----- motowheels

[ungeheuer]

So what do you guys recommend?  I'd hate to buy the Rexxer unit for so much money just to get a PCV + Autotune as well...

End goal: PCV with AutoTuning, deleted stock O2 sensors, Wasp PUK whenever that happens. 

Well if you dont want the expense of buying a Rexxer unit then your options are... >>

Send the ecu to a rexxer place, get a DP ECU map with no o2 and a higher RPM limit
Buy the PC V with Autotune

  << What Raux said.

or

Having finalised your choice of exhaust and intake mods, forget the PCV+ Autotune and get your bike over to here >>  http://www.redlinemotors.com/  <<  for a custom tailored ECU reflash.