Higher Speeds with Less Lean Angle?

[gatorgrizz27]

Hi, I just bought my first bike a couple weeks ago, an '01 Monster 600 and have a question about lean angles.  I noticed when I was following my friend on his Monster 900 that I seem to have to lean a whole lot more than him to take the same corner at the same speed.  I feel like I cannot be anywhere near the cornering abilities of this bike at the speeds I ride at now, but in order to get there I would have to be scraping the ground pretty hard.  I haven't hit my pegs on the ground yet, and I ride on the balls of my feet so my toes are ok, but are there any tricks to take a corner at a higher speed with less lean or do I just need to keep going until I start to scrape?  Thanks, Jon.

[somegirl]

1. Don't try to ride at the same pace as your friend, go at your own pace.

2. Hanging off the bike helps with this.  Once you have more miles under your belt, sign up for a track school so you can learn more about how body position affects cornering.

[El Matador]

1. Don't try to ride at the same pace as your friend, go at your own pace.

2. Hanging off the bike helps with this.  Once you have more miles under your belt, sign up for a track school so you can learn more about how body position affects cornering.

+11Tyb.   

First bike, new rider,

 Take the MSF  if you haven't.

If you have taken it, take the MSF Advanced Riders Course.

After that, go to track school.

As Msinc. said, do not try to keep up with your buddy, it's only gonna get ugly if you do.

That said, you might benefit a little from watching motogp or Wsbk and watch the riders and how they hang off and transition on the bike.

The whole concept of cornering on the motorcycle depends on centrifugal acceleration. that means that the more  mass that is towards the inside of the corner, the sharper you will turn.

The reason why your buddy is able to turn quicker without leaning so much into corners, is because he hangs off the bike more than you do (Ie: puts more of mass of his body towards the inside of the corner). To match this, you are forced to countersteer more and lean the bike over more (you put more of the mass of the bike towards the inside of the corner).

If you do this, you run the risk of losing traction because of an ever smaller  tyre contact patch (the more you lean the bike over, the less tyre is actually making contact with the ground). This is bad. This is how you get into a wreck.

So to recap, go to riding schools and get taught how to hang off properly and improve your riding skills. If you do this, you'll be riding circles around your buddy's 900 in no time...

[ScottRNelson]

If you're slow to lean it into a corner, you'll need to lean more to make the same turn.  Many new riders hesitate to get the bike leaned, so they're not turning as sharply at the beginning.

Don't try keeping up with a faster rider.  That's a good way to crash.  Been there.  Done that.  Don't ever want to do it again.

[Ducatista]

Just my opinion, but on the street, I wouldn't push it hard enough to need those extra degrees of lean angle I get from hanging off the bike.  Just think about it.  How much time would you have to stop if someone on the other side of that turn was encroaching on your lane?  What about gravel, sand, birdseed, oil, and whatever other kinds of debris you can think of?  Only ever ride to 3/10-4/10 of your ability.  Leave the rest for Murphy! 

Like others have said, learn performance riding on the track.  Take ERC.  There are a couple of other parking lot schools out there, too, like Total Control by Lee Parks.  And what you learn on the track, keep at the track.  You can use your confidence you've learned on the track to save you in pucker moments, but don't make pucker moments all on your own.  Leave that job to the idiots and the road conditions.

[gatorgrizz27]

First of all, I just took the MSF course this weekend, and it was the biggest waste of time/money ever.  I was required to take it to get my license, but everything they tought I already knew and I scored 100% on both the written and riding parts of the test.   I have ridden ATV's for 9 years, but just got started on dirt bikes a little over a month ago.  I wasn't trying to "keep up" with my friend, and I would never ride at a pace I wasn't comfortable with, I was riding the same speed with him as I do alone, I just noticed he seemed to be leaning a lot less.  I am also not afraid to lean the bike, I just feel that it has to have so much more potential than I am using, but don't know if I will be able to get there without scraping.  Right now I would think I am riding at about 40-50% of what the bike is capable of, but I only have about 3/8" chicken strips on the rear tire.  I am not trying to use up all of my tire, but rather carry a little more speed while still having a margin of safety.  Why would I even buy a bike that I only use 3/10 of its potential?  That seems ridiculous to me.  I would never ride at 100% on the street, but on clear roads with no traffic I would think that riding at 70-80% could be doable and safe.  I'm not talking about getting my knee down or anything, just picking up the pace through the corners and looking for more help.

[ScottRNelson]

Only ever ride to 3/10-4/10 of your ability.  Leave the rest for Murphy!

You might as well ride a Harley Softtail or something if that's all the faster you want to go.

It's possible to safely ride at about 80% if you take lines as suggested by David L. Hough in Proficient Motorcycling.  I would be bored to death at 30%.

[somegirl]

I'm not talking about getting my knee down or anything, just picking up the pace through the corners and looking for more help.

Understandable, but it's hard for us to help you with specifics without seeing the way you ride or without more specific questions from you. 

In addition to a track school (which is far different than the MSF course) you might want to check out some of the recommended reading.

[Statler]

track school.   we can discuss it all we want, and techniques like the quick turn in and body position mentioned above are absolutely key, but you will learn so much more much more quickly with instructors following you on a track and giving feedback.

[Ducatista]

You might as well ride a Harley Softtail or something if that's all the faster you want to go.

It's possible to safely ride at about 80% if you take lines as suggested by David L. Hough in Proficient Motorcycling.  I would be bored to death at 30%.

  I guess it all depends on where that 100% of your skill is!    I guess I'm going with the logarithmic model of perception.  If 100% of your skill is to take a turn at 60 mph, then 50% of your skill means a helluva lot faster than taking that corner at 30 mph.  Bleh, that's what I get for doing studies in ergonomics in college. 

And don't knock Harleys or their riders.  I'm sure Moto ST racer, Tim Morrow, could show you just how much a Harley can perform. 

[gatorgrizz27]

Alright, I guess I just need to keep riding and practicing for awhile and figure it out.  I know track school is definitely the best way, and I would love to go in the future, but I feel like it would be a waste of money right now as I have not developed my skills enough to take advantage of the instruction.

[topspin_flyer]

So buy a book, while it is no substitute for professional instruction, you can learn a lot in the meantime until you are ready for that first trackday school.

[SeaS2R]

Based on what you're saying (some riding experience but new to street riding) I'd suggest buying Keith Code's Twist of the Wrist II book and trying to apply some of the concepts to your street riding.  This is a decent precursor to taking a riding school or signing up for track days, I think.

[Cabbie]

Let us not all forget that perception is a HUGE factor here as well.  It could be that newbie factor of percieved lean angle.. you may be leaning just as far as your buddy is, but you dont think you are.  Or the opposite is true, you may think he is leaning way more than he actually is... just throwing out nonsense possibly as well.. LOL

[duc996]

Total Control by: Lee Parks,read it apply it,then practice,practice,practice!!!!