You're too stupid to... own a diesel small truck

[ducatiz]

What design features make a motor 21st century?

OHC? no.

VVT? no.

DI?



Pushrods in and of themselves don't make a motor less reliable or long lived. It's about overbuilding and under stressing a motor. It's about putting it in the right application.

One thing Harleys and diesels have in common is low rpm operation thanks to high torque in that range. That can help with longevity.

Of course the quickest way to make a Harley less reliable is to start hot rodding it.

The design feature that makes it 21st century is that it was designed in the 21st century.

The point is that things like CAD modeling allow a designer to do things that a guy in a shop in 19th century Wisconsin could never do.

[Popeye the Sailor]

The air cooled v-twin configuration just ensures the rear cylinder doesn't get adequately cooled.

[Kev M]

The rear cylinder not "adequately" cooling is a bit of a myth. I've explained this before.

 First you have to understand that airflow isn't straight linear. Like water it's turbulent when disturbed.

Next, the exhaust header warms the front cylinder cooling air, while the rear header doesn't foul the rear cylinder's air.

Also, they've always used oil to spread the best around, and in this century that includes spraying the underside of the pistons with oil to pull heat away.

Not to mention till this century tuning wasn't so lean and hot anyway.

But maybe the most important factor is that even when there is a difference in head temps front to rear (and to be clear, until EFI it was just as likely the rest was running cooler, I've measured this with a laser pyrometer on multiple examples), that difference is these days maybe 10°-20°F and though that might seem significant to flesh and bones, it means very little to metal.

The design feature that makes it 21st century is that it was designed in the 21st century.

The point is that things like CAD modeling allow a designer to do things that a guy in a shop in 19th century Wisconsin could never do.

That doesn't ensure better longevity, but what motor are we talking about here? A scratch design since 00?

[ducatiz]

That doesn't ensure better longevity, but what motor are we talking about here? A scratch design since 00?

I agree, it doesn't, but speaking generally here... if you randomly pick a modern-designed engine and an ancient-designed one and run them to exhaustion, my money would be on the modern designed one.

But I'm not even sure how we got this far afield. 

Point is, I'd like a small-medium sized truck with a good diesel motor. 

[Popeye the Sailor]

 First you have to understand that airflow isn't straight linear. Like water it's turbulent when disturbed.

Next, the exhaust header warms the front cylinder cooling air, while the rear header doesn't foul the rear cylinder's air.

Also, they've always used oil to spread the best around, and in this century that includes spraying the underside of the pistons with oil to pull heat away.

Not to mention till this century tuning wasn't so lean and hot anyway.

But maybe the most important factor is that even when there is a difference in head temps front to rear (and to be clear, until EFI it was just as likely the rest was running cooler, I've measured this with a laser pyrometer on multiple examples), that difference is these days maybe 10°-20°F and though that might seem significant to flesh and bones, it means very little to metal.

That doesn't ensure better longevity, but what motor are we talking about here? A scratch design since 00?

Yes, this is why Harley introduced their Rear Cylinder Cutout technology, because this was never ever an issue.

 "Because the aft cylinder tends to run warmer since it doesn't benefit from the airflow that hits the front cylinder, RCC seeks to equalize the difference by shutting off fuel and spark to the back cylinder if the engine idles for more than 3 seconds above 288° F. Once the air-only mix drops the combustion chamber temperature to 275° F, normal operation resumes. RCC was introduced in 2008, and was actuated by a cable before the 2009 model year, when throttle-by-wire technology was introduced."

'Tiz-it's likely due to the way they tax vehicles-they'll never ever build one. Sorry.

[duccarlos]

Point is, I'd like a small-medium sized truck with a good diesel motor. 

What is your budget and what do you classify as "small-medium"? Is a half-ton a medium sized truck?

[Popeye the Sailor]

I'll cut the back off his TDi for $50.

[ducpainter]

What is your budget and what do you classify as "small-medium"? Is a half-ton a medium sized truck?

If you look back to the first post it seems he wants a 1/2 ton rating in something smaller than a American full sized pick-up like the F-150, D-1500, or a
GM C/K-15

[Kev M]

I agree, it doesn't, but speaking generally here... if you randomly pick a modern-designed engine and an ancient-designed one and run them to exhaustion, my money would be on the modern designed one.

But I'm not even sure how we got this far afield.  

Point is, I'd like a small-medium sized truck with a good diesel motor.

The new Colorado is supposed to get a diesel next year. That might fit the bill.

Yes, this is why Harley introduced their Rear Cylinder Cutout technology, because this was never ever an issue.

 "Because the aft cylinder tends to run warmer since it doesn't benefit from the airflow that hits the front cylinder, RCC seeks to equalize the difference by shutting off fuel and spark to the back cylinder if the engine idles for more than 3 seconds above 288° F. Once the air-only mix drops the combustion chamber temperature to 275° F, normal operation resumes. RCC was introduced in 2008, and was actuated by a cable before the 2009 model year, when throttle-by-wire technology was introduced."

'Tiz-it's likely due to the way they tax vehicles-they'll never ever build one. Sorry.

Think about it, the quote doesn't make sense. The cutout system was for rider comfort in idling conditions when there is no airflow. The rear cylinder is just in front of the rider therefore the one that they'd notice when idling.

The system wasn't introduced until extremely lean mixtures were obtained through EFI to meet this decade's stringent emissions standards.

I've spent hours stuck in NYC or LA traffic on Harleys in hot summer temps and never had a problem or a need for a cutout system.

[Popeye the Sailor]

I'm sure because you've never had a problem no one else ever has. 

My quote is directly from popular mechanics. You said yourself "when there is no airflow" might matter on the air cooled motor doncha think?

[duccarlos]

The RAM 1500 is already out with a diesel, but they're oppressively expensive.

[Kev M]

I'm sure because you've never had a problem no one else ever has.  

My quote is directly from popular mechanics. You said yourself "when there is no airflow" might matter on the air cooled motor doncha think?

Oh brother... My anecdotal evidence was an example of why I know it isn't a design problem.

Obviously PM isn't perfect, as their own quote doesn't make sense and shows the writer didn't understand the purpose of the system. There's no airflow to anything when standing still.

Bottom line, it doesn't contradict my point. And a Harley isn't any more likely to overheat at idle then an air cooled Duc, Guzzi, or BMW due to basic engine layout.

Again, the RCC was designed primarily for rider comfort in extended idle in high temp situations.

[Popeye the Sailor]

Oh brother... My anecdotal evidence was an example of why I know it isn't a design problem.

They're being sued over it:

At any rate last week, a federal judge ruled that a class action overheating & burn lawsuit against Harley-Davidson could go forward, siding with four bikers who claimed their Harley-Davidson motorcycles were defectively designed because their engines ran so hot as to pose a constant danger to riders of being burned and were therefore not fit for their intended use.

The complaint alleges that since 1999, Twin Cam 88, 96, 103 and 110 cubic inch engines in Harley motorcycles produce severe, excessive heat causing clothing to catch on fire, burn injuries and the danger of burn injury to riders and passengers as well as overheating causing premature engine wear and is in models manufactured after 2006, transmission failure.  Although Harley-Davidson asked the Eastern District of California court to throw out the claims under state law, the U.S. District Judge sided with the plaintiffs.

Linky https://nwhog.wordpress.com/2011/08/12/dancing-with-the-heat-dragons/

[MendoDave]

They're being sued over it:

At any rate last week, a federal judge ruled that a class action overheating & burn lawsuit against Harley-Davidson could go forward, siding with four bikers who claimed their Harley-Davidson motorcycles were defectively designed because their engines ran so hot as to pose a constant danger to riders of being burned and were therefore not fit for their intended use.

The complaint alleges that since 1999, Twin Cam 88, 96, 103 and 110 cubic inch engines in Harley motorcycles produce severe, excessive heat causing clothing to catch on fire, burn injuries and the danger of burn injury to riders and passengers as well as overheating causing premature engine wear and is in models manufactured after 2006, transmission failure.  Although Harley-Davidson asked the Eastern District of California court to throw out the claims under state law, the U.S. District Judge sided with the plaintiffs.

Linky https://nwhog.wordpress.com/2011/08/12/dancing-with-the-heat-dragons/

Burn Smurn. Bunch of Sissys. 

[Zaster]

Burn Smurn. Bunch of Sissys. 

I guess they haven't heard about the heat issues with the Panigale