No start

[memper]

Understand the brown/white is the wire of concern.  When I jumped T30 to T87 in the relay housing that simulated the relay functionality, right?  And if my problem was just the relay that would have provided power all the way to the pumps so either I did that part wrong or I have an issue somewhere else.  I'll try to get a new relay today.  I'm in Okinawa, Japan so it's not as easy as popping down to the local NAPA.

Josh

Funny how that is in "The Land of Electronics". I have heard the same ironic problem before.

[Howie]

Understand the brown/white is the wire of concern.  When I jumped T30 to T87 in the relay housing that simulated the relay functionality, right?  And if my problem was just the relay that would have provided power all the way to the pumps so either I did that part wrong or I have an issue somewhere else.  I'll try to get a new relay today.  I'm in Okinawa, Japan so it's not as easy as popping down to the local NAPA.

Josh

Yes, when you jump from 30 to 87 the pump should be powered with the key on since you bypassed the relay.  When you did this did you check for power at the brown/white wire at the connector to the pump with the key on?  + from meter on wire, negative to a good (battery negative would be perfect) ground?  If you have power there and the pump doesn't work When you turn the key on voltage should be there .  As I said before,  Your problem is now either the low fuel sending unit or the pump.  The wire to the pump runs through the sending unit and is a common failure.

I have no idea what it is like shopping for automotive parts in Okinawa, but that relay is used in all kinds of automotive applications.  Maybe the shop that load tested your battery can help?  It might help to post your problem and a link to your thread here  http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?board=45.0  been dead there for a bit, but worth a try I think.

[JoshuaCJCohen]

Yes, when you jump from 30 to 87 the pump should be powered with the key on since you bypassed the relay.  When you did this did you check for power at the brown/white wire at the connector to the pump with the key on?  + from meter on wire, negative to a good (battery negative would be perfect) ground?  If you have power there and the pump doesn't work When you turn the key on voltage should be there .  As I said before,  Your problem is now either the low fuel sending unit or the pump.  The wire to the pump runs through the sending unit and is a common failure.

Have a new relay, going to run tests again on the 4 terminal connector under the seat.  What is sending unit?  Is it located in the tank?  Can I fix it or is this a shop issue?

More on the testing in a few minutes.

Thanks in advance,
Josh

[JoshuaCJCohen]

Howie,
I bought a new relay, which it turns out, I don't need. 

1st test.  Removed fuel pump relay.  Hard-wired relay harness T30 to T87, creating a direct connection from the battery through the relay harness.  I disconnected the Four Terminal quick disconnect under the seat.  I put the Red lead of the multimeter on Terminal #1 (Brown/White) female receptor (on the supply side) and the Black lead on the battery ground.  Turned the key.
12VDC was available on the Brown/White wire.

2nd Test.  Removed jump wire and replaced original fuel pump relay.  I put the Red lead of the multimeter on Terminal #1 (Brown/White) female receptor (on the supply side) and the Black lead on the battery ground.  Turned the key.  With the first click the multimeter reads 12VDC.  With the second click the voltage drops to 0.  I believe the relay is working correctly.

What I don't know is if the fuel pump relay is a demand item or a push item.  Does something in the fuel tank send a demand signal to the relay which causes it to close the circuit and power the pump or does the power applied to the relay from the battery cause it to close and it stays closed as long as the key is turned.  Does it make sense that it would close for a few seconds and then open, thus removing power to the fuel pumps?

So, if it is working correctly there is a problem downstream of the Four Terminal quick disconnect, i.e. from the male plugs of the disconnect to the fuel pump in the tank.

I saw the wires going in with a plastic sheath around them at the bottom of the pump.  I can see where the pump comes out and it looks like the wires are held in place by a plastic plug that is removable from the pump itself.  As the tank is more than half full and I don't know how this is put together I did not attempt to remove anything from the tank as to avoid a spill.

I believe the plug with the wires in it is the fuel sending unit Howie has mentioned twice.  I understand the fuel sending units only job is the low fuel light and to provide a place for the Brown/White wire to enter the tank.  Howie, when you say, "The wire to the pump....is a common failure", do you mean the wire itself needs to be replaced or do I have to replace the whole sending unit/fuel pump?

I used the jump cables to connect the batter directly to the #1 and #2 (Positive and Negative for the Fuel Pump) to see if the pump activated.  It did not.  So it seems it is the wire Howie is calling culprit or the fuel pump itself is bad.

I believe at this point I have to drain the tank, remove it from the bike and then remove the sending unit, fuel pump or both.

Thanks,
Josh

[ducpainter]

The relay is working correctly. The ecu controls the power to the #87 terminal. The pump runs  constantly when the bike starts.

You have a problem either with the pump or the fuel sending unit.

The next step would be to remove the pump and test the wires connected to it just the way you tested the brown white wire, except use the ground wire in the connector.

No voltage, bad sender...voltage...bad pump.

[Howie]

The tank stays on the bike.  I suggest you get a new O ring and replace the fuel filter.  These two threads in "tutorials" will help.

http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=2512.0
http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=36513.0

Happy fishing!

[JoshuaCJCohen]

Got it.
Best way to drain the tank?  Which fuel line should I disconnect?

I understand I need to disconnect the power cable from the pump and test it with the multimeter, Red to #1 and Black to #2 vice the battery ground. 

Howie,
Is the O ring for the gas cap access or for something inside the tank?

Thanks,
Josh

[JoshuaCJCohen]

So I mentioned there was an after market gas cap on the tank.  After pulling most of the fuel out I got my allen wrench set and took a look at the three screws bolts holding the cap in place.  The bolts must be metric because one was too big and the next size down was too small.  No problem, I've got about half a dozen metric wrenches around that size.  The third one I try fits, 2.5mm.  Fit is nice and snug, start turning it using a block of wood over the bolt to keep the wrench all the way down and the bolts starts to move.  Good enough.

Move to bolt number 2.  Wrench goes is and is loose.  WTF?  Try bolt 3 and the same result  Take close look at bolt 2 and 3 and they are clearly damaged.  Apparently when they were installed someone didn't have the proper sized tool and made due with what he had, partially stripping them in the process.  Tried all my wrenches, of both varieties, and none fit correctly.  Use the largest one I can fit in there, 2.5mm, the block of wood and it just messed them up more. 

I stopped when I realized it wasn't going to work to ensure I didn't end up with round holes in the bolt head.

When I figure a way to get them out and can test the damn pump I'll be back.

Breaking things,
Josh

[ducpainter]

Get a torx bit/driver that is slightly larger than the hex and tap it in.

That will allow you to remove them.

You'll have to get new ones.

[suzyj]

Just so you know, every single bolt on your bike is metric. Same with all other European and Japanese bikes. It's only Harley that have weird imperial stuff.

[JoshuaCJCohen]

Pounded the screws and got them removed.

I removed two of the grub screws but stopped because the only wrench I have that fits is on a folding set and I am going to get a solo wrench tomorrow to do it right.

First thing I noticed is the cap base is backwards from other pictures I've seen.  Does that matter?  Notice the rust in the tank.


When I turned the after market over I saw the gasket was cut or torn.  It appears that it rubs against the lip on the cap base.  It is cut about 80% around and I believe this is where my leak is coming from.


Close up of the cap base.  It is coated in mung.  Also a better view of the rust.  The base is much dirtier than any base I've seen in pictures.  When I get it out should I take the opportunity to clean it?  Any advice on how to prevent the crap buildup or is that just part of living in the watery air that is Okinawa, Japan?


Woot. Stupid Flickr!  EAFD!

Thanks,
Josh

[ducpainter]

You need to use the share link in flikr for the pics to appear.

[ducpainter]

It looks to me like the drain tube from the cap base to the bottom fitting on the tank is clogged or the tube is pinched. Based on the amount of corrosion, I'd say the former.

About 20% of the tanks I repair have this problem. It's from letting the drain hose getting pinched which causes the tube to clog with rust.

If the battery is working and you don't hear the fuel pump hum, the problem is the wiring in the fuel flange.  It's a very well-known problem with these bikes.  Basically the connection that passes through the fuel flange to the fuel pump fails because of shoddy solder.  You have to take out the flange, dig out the putty, re-solder the wire, re-fill the flange with fuel-proof putty (JB Water Weld), and refit.  Total cost is about $10 but it will take you many hours.

I also think CA Cycleworks sells a replacement flange for $150 or so.

To buy a new flange from Ducati is over $800.

I had to do this myself and can go into much greater detail if you want.  But, like I said, if the battery is fine and the pump isn't priming, that's definitely the problem.

Also, it's not the relays.  But if you really want to replace them get the Hela ones from Amazon for 5 bucks, not the expensive Ducati ones.

You're referring to a plastic tanked bike. He has a steel tank. A new sender is about $150.

[JoshuaCJCohen]

Ducpainter,
Which of those holes is the drain tube?  I think its the one on the left side of the picture that is depressed into the cap base.  And I think you are saying it has a direct line from that depression to the bottom of the tank (and the ground).   I'll know more, hopefully today, when I get the cap base off. 

Speaking of the base, what is the best way to clean it and get the grime off?

As you mentioned rust, should I go all the way, remove and empty the tank and try to get the rust out or is this an acceptable amount of rust?  My Kawasaki Vulcan has 0 rust but it was also a brand new bike when I bought it years ago.

Thanks,
Josh

[ducpainter]

Ducpainter,
Which of those holes is the drain tube?  I think its the one on the left side of the picture that is depressed into the cap base.  And I think you are saying it has a direct line from that depression to the bottom of the tank (and the ground).   I'll know more, hopefully today, when I get the cap base off. 

Speaking of the base, what is the best way to clean it and get the grime off?

As you mentioned rust, should I go all the way, remove and empty the tank and try to get the rust out or is this an acceptable amount of rust?  My Kawasaki Vulcan has 0 rust but it was also a brand new bike when I bought it years ago.

Thanks,
Josh

Yes, it is the one on the left.

The corrosion on the base is not really a problem. You could clean it with a scotchbrite, but if there is any anodizing left it will probably remove it.

I'd recommend having the hinge reinforced and coating the tank. You'd need to find a weldor.

I use POR-15 which uses an acid treatment to get the rust out. I understand you're overseas and might not have access to everything we have here in the states