Hi,
I recently bought a used 900 and this morning it wouldn't start. I've been riding it for about a month without any problems. This morning, after it sat for two days, I turned the key and no fuel injector hum was noticed. When I hit the start button it turned over but just chugged. I rolled it out of the driveway and down the hill, dropped it into first gear and instead of turning over and starting is clanked and came to an abrupt stop.
I'm not a mechanic and know more about aircraft jet engines than I do about car or motorcycle engines. Any ideas?
Thanks,
Josh
Battery.
How is the cranking speed? By "chugging" do you mean cranking slowly?
Some Ducati's kill the fuel pump with the kill switch...Is it in the off position?
If it was just the battery wouldn't jump starting it still work? I had a completely dead battery on a Kawasaki Vulcan a few years back (when I left the key on during lunch) and was able to roll it down a slight decline in the parking lot and it started right up.
Initially it seemed to be turning over just fine, but after a few tries it slowed down significantly, as I would expect, due to battery drain. I described it as "chugging" due to the unique sound the Ducati makes.
Kill switch is in the on position. Check, checked again and rechecked.
Bump starting won't work if the battery is dead enough to not run the fuel pump.
If you have a battery charger hook it up overnight and see what happens.
Does the headlight come on when you turn on the key? If it does, does it get really dim when you hit the start button?
I don't think the battery was that dead though because the bike cranked.
and why not a multi meter while youre at it.
check sparks. Take off spark, connect spark cable to it, touch metal screw part of spark with bike engine and press start, you should see sparks if spark is ok. if not, spark is dead - replace.
Thanks guys. I'll check those out and get back to you.
Josh
Headlamp almost goes completely out when I hit the start button. Haven't tested the spark plug yet.
Quote from: JoshuaCJCohen on June 19, 2013, 02:32:50 AM
Headlamp almost goes completely out when I hit the start button. Haven't tested the spark plug yet.
You need to start by charging the battery and have it load tested.
Battery.
Took one spark plug out and it was completely coated with carbon. Lifted the tank and pulled the battery. When I lifted the tank a small amount of gasoline ran down the back of the tank and collected on the ground. (more on that in a minute)
Went to the motorcycle shop down the street. They hooked up the voltmeter and the battery is fine, 12.61V. They did suggest replacing the spark plugs since I had one out already.
They suggested the fuel pump relay is bad and told me to recheck the fuses.
Went home, checked all the fuses (since I don't know which fuse runs the relay because only certain items are on the little black box ), put the battery back in (more gas on ground and my shirt) and partially installed one new spark plug.
When I took the spark plug cover off and removed the original spark plug I noticed the plug end was not a copper looking funnel as I was used to, but just the metal screw. I thought, "I guess Ducati uses a stripped down spark plug. Funny Italians." When I went to install the new one I didn't think to remove the top piece and, of course, it didn't fit. I then realized the copper funnel thing was in the plug cover. I found the front plug and pulled the cap off and sure enough, bare metal screw on the exterior end of that spark plug as well. As it's 2133 here I didn't bother to check but I'm willing to bet that copper funnel piece is also in the plug cover.
Did they rattle lose? I'm planning on using needle nose pliers to pull them out unless someone warns me not to for some reason. I was reading up on replacing spark plugs and lubricating them before inserting them and head spacing. I don't know crap about head spacing or how to determine it. Is there a method for determining that doesn't require calipers and a electromagnetic microscope? I don't think the copper piece coming lose from the spark plug has anything to do with my fuel pumps not humming when I turn the key but as I know more about jet turbines than I do about piston engines I'm willing to admit I'm wrong.
Lastly, the fuel tank. Previous owner told me he has replaced the factory issue fuel cap with an after market product. It is a large metal disk with three hex bolts holding it onto the gas tank and a non-key required cap that has a push and twist release in the center. I could see that there was some space between the large disk and the tank and asked him if water can get in the tank and he said, "No, but it will collect a little in the depression." When I lifted the tank to access the battery gas was slowly leaking from that gap. Only a small amount would leak out, it didn't do it the entire time, so I know it isn't a direct leak from the opening but clearly there is a path for some gas to get out when lifted, which tells me there is a path for water to get in under the correct conditions as well. I have attempted to include a picture. I suspect the leak is coming from between the copper disk and the white colored ring. Anything I should be worried about? I cover it at night but I live in Okinawa, Japan and we get tons of rain.
Since the battery is good, is the fuel pump relay a good next suspect or is there another option? I have noticed that on two or three occasions, when I push the start button nothing happens, no noise, not turnover, no nothing. I simply released it and pressed it again and it works no problem so there is a contact issue somewhere. However, the last two days it is turning over, it's just not catching fire and, of course, the fuel pumps are silent.
Lastly, I believe my bike is a 2006 Monster 900 Eurospec. I have not been able to find out any info on this model and, most importantly, if I can bring back to the states with me when I depart Japan in the future. Is there a way to tell from the VIN this information the year and if I send that to Ducati will they be able to tell me if it is eligible for import?
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10200754758465221&set=a.1729288845944.92633.1650164700&type=1&relevant_count=1 (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10200754758465221&set=a.1729288845944.92633.1650164700&type=1&relevant_count=1)
Thanks in advance.
Josh
A simple voltage test isn't sufficient to test a battery. It needs to be load tested.
The fact that the headlight goes out when you hit the starter means either the battery is no good, or you have a very bad connection somewhere.
Re: the spark plugs...that is the type Ducati uses. The top looks like a threaded stud. NGK part# 4339.
You need to verify that the pump primes. If it does then maybe new plugs will help, but with no pump it won't start no matter what.
Water should not collect in the depression under the cap. If it does the drain is clogged or the hose under the tank is pinched. The fuel leaking is probably something you'll have to live with because of the aftermarket cap. You should be very careful when raising the tank with over half a tank of fuel. You can damage the hinge and then you'll have the Monster hinge leak.
1) Roger, load test.
2) So don't remove the copper funnel thing? Get NGK 4339. Got it.
3) Any ideas on the pump relays? Is that a real option or are they just pulling my leg?
Quote from: JoshuaCJCohen on June 19, 2013, 07:01:00 AM
1) Roger, load test.
2) So don't remove the copper funnel thing? Get NGK 4339. Got it.
3) Any ideas on the pump relays? Is that a real option or are they just pulling my leg?
Yes, do remove the tip on the top so it looks like a threaded stud.
Yes, the pump relay is a definite possibility.
You can check to see if the relay is providing power to the pump connector under the fuel tank. No power to the red wire probably means a bad relay. If you have power at the red wire either the pump went bad, or the connection inside the sender is faulty.
Would I check power to the red wire with a voltmeter?
Quote from: JoshuaCJCohen on June 19, 2013, 02:20:03 PM
Would I check power to the red wire with a voltmeter?
Ideally yes. You could also use a test light for this application
Your motor needs to turn before it'll start. Get it turning (battery) then think about other things.
Fuel pump relays don't prevent the starter from turning.
Quote from: suzyj on June 19, 2013, 05:06:42 PM
Your motor needs to turn before it'll start. Get it turning (battery) then think about other things.
Fuel pump relays don't prevent the starter from turning.
If you re-read his first post, it
was turning over.
Quote from: ducpainter on June 19, 2013, 05:14:08 PM
If you re-read his first post, it was turning over.
Next you'll be saying engineers can read.
Something is real strange, the last year of the 900 was 2002.
Anyway, as ducpainter said, the battery must be properly charged and load tested. The voltage reading the shop did is called open cell voltage and tells a good tech the state of charge, but not health. That is where the load test comes into play. A battery that reads 12.6 but has trouble cranking the engine and dims the headlight is a symptom of either a weak battery or high resistance in the starter circuit (including ground). It does seem like your battery should be good enough to run the pump, but diagnosing without a known good battery is iffy.
Relays can be tested. Your relay is a standard 4 prong. Battery positive to terminal 30. Terminal 86 to battery ground. When 12 volts is applied to terminal 85 12 volts should be present at 87, which would go to your fuel pump. Alternative (easier and faster) is take a jumper wire and jump from terminal 30 to terminal 87. Turn key on. Pump now hums? Bad relay. No hum? Check for voltage at terminal 30 (key on). No voltage at 30? Bad fuse or wiring problem between fuse and relay. Power at 30? Take meter or test light and hook up to 85. Turn key on. There should be power at 85. If not, wiring problem between the socket and the computer or (highly unlikely) bad computer.
Post some good photos of the bike and we might be able to confirm what year it is. Posting the VIN and engine serial number might help.
Going out of town for the weekend. Monday afternoon will take battery to shop and have it charged and load tested.
I will take your third paragraph with me to the shop as I have no idea what you're talking about.
Off the plate under the seat:
DUCATIMOTOR SPA
el*92/61*00051*
ZDMM200AAXB000224
91 dB(A) - 4.125min(-1)
Vehicle code: M200AA
Picture of bike:
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10200476554190288&set=a.4541340185470.171579.1650164700&type=1&relevant_count=1 (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10200476554190288&set=a.4541340185470.171579.1650164700&type=1&relevant_count=1)
Thank you again for all your help. More results Monday night.
Josh
That bike looks like an '01 to me. A close up of the rear suspension and clutch cover might help.
Pretty sure the hoop suspension was gone in '02
Yes it was! The oil cooler looks like '00.
Quote from: howie on June 20, 2013, 03:47:45 PM
Yes it was! The oil cooler looks like '00.
But the rear brake doesn't
My '01 has the caliper on top, I don't remember where it is on an '00 Serial number is not right for an early Monster either AFAIK.
Hi guys,
Back from the weekend. I took the battery to the shop, they charged it and load tested and said it looks fine. Do I know what that really means? No. But I took it home, turned the key and still no fuel pumps. Hit the start switch and turned over no problem, but of course it didn't catch. Headlight is barely dimming when turning over. Even if the battery is weak over all it isn't the battery that is preventing the fuel pumps from priming.
I checked my ins paperwork, which I picked up today from the ins company and its says 2000 900CC M/C. Mystery solved?
I'm off to the hardware store to pick up a meter and jumper wire. Hope they have them small enough to fit the 4 prong housing. It's pretty tiny in there.
Thanks,
Josh
Great, now you know the battery is good! The jumper wire is a do it yourself item. A piece of 16 gauge wire and two male spade connectors.
If you have the owner's manual there is a wiring diagram in the back, if not, you can find a wiring diagram here http://www.ducatiusa.com/services/maintenance/index.do (http://www.ducatiusa.com/services/maintenance/index.do) only goes back to 2001, but that diagram will work for your '00.
I did some testing last night but as it was after dark and I was using a flashlight while holding the multimeter and balancing the gas tank, it wasn't very useful. I'm going to draft the wife this afternoon and try again.
I was thinking about removing the gas tank, as recommended in many videos, and then realized I have no idea where the fuel pump is and didn't want to screw myself inadvertently by removing the gas tank (with fuel pumps inside?) so I started looking for diagrams of the fuel system.
What I found was this thread.
http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=54443.0 (http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=54443.0)
and I'm wondering if there isn't a better way to go about this whole thing. Manual? Vacuum pump? Is the picture in the third post on page one the fuel pump?
Thanks,
Josh
Josh,
You have a FI bike. The pump is electric and is located inside the tank. You can use a piece of wood to prop the tank up high enough to do your testing.
Can someone tell me which fuse controls the fuel pump relay or point me to a diagram? I just found the two fuses (5 and 20 respectively) on the right side of the bike opposite the fuel pump relay which is on the left. I tried tracing the wires but the bundle leaves the relay and runs into a large bundle just forward of the battery and I can't tell where it comes out.
Thanks,
Josh
Quote from: howie on June 19, 2013, 09:54:07 PM
Relays can be tested. Your relay is a standard 4 prong. Battery positive to terminal 30. Terminal 86 to battery ground. When 12 volts is applied to terminal 85 12 volts should be present at 87, which would go to your fuel pump. Alternative (easier and faster) is take a jumper wire and jump from terminal 30 to terminal 87. Turn key on. Pump now hums? Bad relay. No hum? Check for voltage at terminal 30 (key on). No voltage at 30? Bad fuse or wiring problem between fuse and relay. Power at 30? Take meter or test light and hook up to 85. Turn key on. There should be power at 85. If not, wiring problem between the socket and the computer or (highly unlikely) bad computer.
Did lots of testing but I'm not sure I did it right. First of all, I took the relay off to get to the terminals. Some of the instructions above seem to indicate I need to leave the relay on, "Power at 30? Take meter or test light and hook up to 85. Turn key on. There should be power at 85." But if the relay is off how is the power getting from T30 to T85?
Placed a wire from T85 to T87 and there was no hum of the fuel pump. I tried to take a reading from T85 at this point but I got no needle movement. But when I removed the wire between T85 and T87 and tested I saw a 2 or 3V response. See data below.
My primitive understanding of this relay is power comes in T30, goes through relay to T85 which then sends it to T87 to the Fuel Pump. T86 is the ground for all.
Raw results with relay off.
R = Red, B = Black, using analog multimeter set to 50VDC.
R-30, B-86 0V
R-30, B-Engine Block = @15V
R-30, B-87 = @15V
R-30, B-85 = @12V
R-85, B-87 = @2 or 3V
R-85, B-86 = Negative V
R-85, B-30 = Negative V
While I had R-30, B-87 I was watching 15V then I turned off the key and the needle stayed at 15V. I checked with B-Engine Block and it was also reading 15V. I checked B-85 and when I turned the key off it actually went up to about 15V.
So it appears that it is pulling power from T30 to T85 and T87 when the key is not on (and relay is on). Am I doing something wrong? I don't think power should be moving when the key is off and, if so, would this account for my battery drain? What the hell is going on?
Thanks,
Josh
New data. On the off chance something fixed itself I put the relay back on and turned the key praying I would hear the fuel pumps engage. Of course that didn't happen but I heard a metallic "click" I haven't heard before as the tank is raised and I have access to the battery tray.
After kneeling by both sides of the bike and pressing my hear to the battery, ECU (at least I assume it is the ECU, silver box mounted just forward of the battery tray) and relay, whenever I turn the key on the clicking sound comes from the relay. It sounds like a fuse tripping. I assume it isn't supposed to make that noise but I'll let the experts lead me to water.
Thanks,
Josh
No longer the hopeful man I was five minutes ago. Listening for other strange noises while turning the key I heard the exact same pinking sound coming from the relay next to the long fuse box under the seat. So I guess that noise is normal when applying power and I'm back to square one.
If I wanted to just replace the relay and see if that does the trick, is this the right part?
http://www.napaonline.com/Catalog/CatalogItemDetail.aspx?R=ECHAR614_0365805335 (http://www.napaonline.com/Catalog/CatalogItemDetail.aspx?R=ECHAR614_0365805335)
I just called the motorcycle shop and they said they have one in for about $45. I asked the part number and they gave me 28740403A.
Does it matter if I use the NAPA one or does it need to be the Ducati?
If you look at the thread at the top of the page there is a post with a list of replacement relays.
Let me start by stating the obvious. I am a complete newb at trouble shooting. I apologize for wasting your time. And thank you for not delivering the flaming spray I so clearly deserve. Tomorrow I will properly load and test the relay and stop testing the relay housing. Did I mention I was a newb?
As a consequence of some much needed research Howie's instructions suddenly make sense.
Thanks in advance,
Josh
Not to worry...
we're here to help.
That relay is nothing special if it turns out to be bad. Autozone, or any parts store should have an economical replacement.
Quote from: JoshuaCJCohen on June 24, 2013, 01:53:05 AM
Did lots of testing but I'm not sure I did it right. First of all, I took the relay off to get to the terminals. Some of the instructions above seem to indicate I need to leave the relay on, "Power at 30? Take meter or test light and hook up to 85. Turn key on. There should be power at 85." But if the relay is off how is the power getting from T30 to T85?
Placed a wire from T85 to T87 and there was no hum of the fuel pump. I tried to take a reading from T85 at this point but I got no needle movement. But when I removed the wire between T85 and T87 and tested I saw a 2 or 3V response. See data below.
My primitive understanding of this relay is power comes in T30, goes through relay to T85 which then sends it to T87 to the Fuel Pump. T86 is the ground for all.
Raw results with relay off.
R = Red, B = Black, using analog multimeter set to 50VDC.
R-30, B-86 0V
R-30, B-Engine Block = @15V
R-30, B-87 = @15V
R-30, B-85 = @12V
R-85, B-87 = @2 or 3V
R-85, B-86 = Negative V
R-85, B-30 = Negative V
While I had R-30, B-87 I was watching 15V then I turned off the key and the needle stayed at 15V. I checked with B-Engine Block and it was also reading 15V. I checked B-85 and when I turned the key off it actually went up to about 15V.
So it appears that it is pulling power from T30 to T85 and T87 when the key is not on (and relay is on). Am I doing something wrong? I don't think power should be moving when the key is off and, if so, would this account for my battery drain? What the hell is going on?
Thanks,
Josh
Josh, relay out for the tests, sorry for the confusion. I gave you a link for an '01 FI Monster owner's manual, wiring and fuses the same as your '00. Here it is again http://www.ducatiusa.com/services/maintenance/index.do (http://www.ducatiusa.com/services/maintenance/index.do) fuses are in there too. The fuel pump runs off the 20 amp fuse in #6 position.
Now that we know what your bike is this can save you some time:
Lift tank. If it is full some fuel will leak out and the tank should be supported by means other than the prop rod to take pressure off the hinge.
Remove electrical connector on the bottom of the tank.
Connect a test light or your volt meter between the brown/white wire (terminal 1 if marked).
When you turn the key on voltage should be there . If so, the pump is getting power, relay, etc are all good. Your problem is now either the low fuel sending unit or the pump. The wire to the pump runs through the sending unit and is a common failure.
howie...if the relay is out how can you test if the relay is sending power to the 85 terminal?
Howie,
Removed electrical connector and the red cap that makes the holes the size of pins. Just to be clear, I'm simply touching the leads from the multimeter to the male and female ends of terminal 1. When I do that there is no voltage (I reinstalled the relay first). I checked all four terminals and there was no voltage on any of them.
I think the next step is to check the relay under power and see what resistance it has, right? I still don't know if the relay is any good.
Thanks,
Josh
Just test the sender connector on the chassis side...terminal 1 and 2 or brn/w and black.
That will tell if the relay is sending power to the connector. If it is then you have a problem with the sending unit or the pump as howie said.
If not then it's the relay or wiring.
Test sets
1) Relay in. 4 Terminal connector unhooked. Red to Sender Side, Black to Receiver side. No reading on multimeter on any of the four terminals. I think I learned a valuable lesson about proper grounding.
2) Relay in. 4 Terminal connector unhooked. Red to Sender side, black to battery ground. Reading on Terminal #3 (Black/Blue wire), 12V. Other three terminals are zero reading.
3) Relay out. Jump wire from T30 to T87. Red to 4 terminal sender, black to battery ground. Reading on Terminal #1 and #3, 12V each. No reading on #2 and #4.
4) Relay out testing. Jump wires from battery to relay T30 and T86. Multimeter red to T87 and ground. No reading.
5) Relay out testing. Jump wires from battery to relay T85 and T86. Multimeter red to T87 and ground. No reading.
The relay did "click" when I applied power to T30 and T86. But I still didn't get any reading from T85 or T87.
When I inadvertently contacted both T85 and T87a there was an audible tone. I tried not to do that too often.
6) Relay out. Jump wire from T30 to T87. 4 Terminal connector complete. (I believe at this point if the only issue was the relay the jump wire would be simulating a working relay). No fuel pump priming when key turned. Engine turned over but did not catch. (Fuel tank was still in the up position so if there is a position switch or detection that might have interfered.
What next?
Josh
Found this color picture of the electrical scheme. As best I can tell with the above results is there is a problem with the Br/W wire.
http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6123/5974525358_5c086e5afd_o.jpg (http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6123/5974525358_5c086e5afd_o.jpg)
Josh, over the interwebs it is difficult for us to follow each other or for me to know if you are doing things correctly. Anyway, the blue/black wire is for the low fuel light, not the fuel pump. Your only concern at that connector is that brown/black. Going back to dp's earlier suggestion, go to the store and buy a new relay. They are cheap. Worth a try. Let us know what happens. When I have more time I will get back to you.
Another alternative is get the bike to a good shop. Sometimes it is worth it. It took me about 30 years to learn that.
Understand the brown/white is the wire of concern. When I jumped T30 to T87 in the relay housing that simulated the relay functionality, right? And if my problem was just the relay that would have provided power all the way to the pumps so either I did that part wrong or I have an issue somewhere else. I'll try to get a new relay today. I'm in Okinawa, Japan so it's not as easy as popping down to the local NAPA.
Josh
Quote from: JoshuaCJCohen on June 24, 2013, 04:06:15 PM
Understand the brown/white is the wire of concern. When I jumped T30 to T87 in the relay housing that simulated the relay functionality, right? And if my problem was just the relay that would have provided power all the way to the pumps so either I did that part wrong or I have an issue somewhere else. I'll try to get a new relay today. I'm in Okinawa, Japan so it's not as easy as popping down to the local NAPA.
Josh
Funny how that is in "The Land of Electronics". I have heard the same ironic problem before.
Quote from: JoshuaCJCohen on June 24, 2013, 04:06:15 PM
Understand the brown/white is the wire of concern. When I jumped T30 to T87 in the relay housing that simulated the relay functionality, right? And if my problem was just the relay that would have provided power all the way to the pumps so either I did that part wrong or I have an issue somewhere else. I'll try to get a new relay today. I'm in Okinawa, Japan so it's not as easy as popping down to the local NAPA.
Josh
Yes, when you jump from 30 to 87 the pump should be powered with the key on since you bypassed the relay. When you did this did you check for power at the brown/white wire at the connector to the pump with the key on? + from meter on wire, negative to a good (battery negative would be perfect) ground? If you have power there and the pump doesn't work When you turn the key on voltage should be there . As I said before, Your problem is now either the low fuel sending unit or the pump. The wire to the pump runs through the sending unit and is a common failure.
I have no idea what it is like shopping for automotive parts in Okinawa, but that relay is used in all kinds of automotive applications. Maybe the shop that load tested your battery can help? It might help to post your problem and a link to your thread here http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?board=45.0 (http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?board=45.0) been dead there for a bit, but worth a try I think.
Quote from: howie on June 24, 2013, 10:04:44 PM
Yes, when you jump from 30 to 87 the pump should be powered with the key on since you bypassed the relay. When you did this did you check for power at the brown/white wire at the connector to the pump with the key on? + from meter on wire, negative to a good (battery negative would be perfect) ground? If you have power there and the pump doesn't work When you turn the key on voltage should be there . As I said before, Your problem is now either the low fuel sending unit or the pump. The wire to the pump runs through the sending unit and is a common failure.
Have a new relay, going to run tests again on the 4 terminal connector under the seat. What is sending unit? Is it located in the tank? Can I fix it or is this a shop issue?
More on the testing in a few minutes.
Thanks in advance,
Josh
Howie,
I bought a new relay, which it turns out, I don't need.
1st test. Removed fuel pump relay. Hard-wired relay harness T30 to T87, creating a direct connection from the battery through the relay harness. I disconnected the Four Terminal quick disconnect under the seat. I put the Red lead of the multimeter on Terminal #1 (Brown/White) female receptor (on the supply side) and the Black lead on the battery ground. Turned the key.
12VDC was available on the Brown/White wire.
2nd Test. Removed jump wire and replaced original fuel pump relay. I put the Red lead of the multimeter on Terminal #1 (Brown/White) female receptor (on the supply side) and the Black lead on the battery ground. Turned the key. With the first click the multimeter reads 12VDC. With the second click the voltage drops to 0. I believe the relay is working correctly.
What I don't know is if the fuel pump relay is a demand item or a push item. Does something in the fuel tank send a demand signal to the relay which causes it to close the circuit and power the pump or does the power applied to the relay from the battery cause it to close and it stays closed as long as the key is turned. Does it make sense that it would close for a few seconds and then open, thus removing power to the fuel pumps?
So, if it is working correctly there is a problem downstream of the Four Terminal quick disconnect, i.e. from the male plugs of the disconnect to the fuel pump in the tank.
I saw the wires going in with a plastic sheath around them at the bottom of the pump. I can see where the pump comes out and it looks like the wires are held in place by a plastic plug that is removable from the pump itself. As the tank is more than half full and I don't know how this is put together I did not attempt to remove anything from the tank as to avoid a spill.
I believe the plug with the wires in it is the fuel sending unit Howie has mentioned twice. I understand the fuel sending units only job is the low fuel light and to provide a place for the Brown/White wire to enter the tank. Howie, when you say, "The wire to the pump....is a common failure", do you mean the wire itself needs to be replaced or do I have to replace the whole sending unit/fuel pump?
I used the jump cables to connect the batter directly to the #1 and #2 (Positive and Negative for the Fuel Pump) to see if the pump activated. It did not. So it seems it is the wire Howie is calling culprit or the fuel pump itself is bad.
I believe at this point I have to drain the tank, remove it from the bike and then remove the sending unit, fuel pump or both.
Thanks,
Josh
The relay is working correctly. The ecu controls the power to the #87 terminal. The pump runs constantly when the bike starts.
You have a problem either with the pump or the fuel sending unit.
The next step would be to remove the pump and test the wires connected to it just the way you tested the brown white wire, except use the ground wire in the connector.
No voltage, bad sender...voltage...bad pump.
The tank stays on the bike. I suggest you get a new O ring and replace the fuel filter. These two threads in "tutorials" will help.
http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=2512.0 (http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=2512.0)
http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=36513.0 (http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=36513.0)
Happy fishing!
Got it.
Best way to drain the tank? Which fuel line should I disconnect?
I understand I need to disconnect the power cable from the pump and test it with the multimeter, Red to #1 and Black to #2 vice the battery ground.
Howie,
Is the O ring for the gas cap access or for something inside the tank?
Thanks,
Josh
So I mentioned there was an after market gas cap on the tank. After pulling most of the fuel out I got my allen wrench set and took a look at the three screws bolts holding the cap in place. The bolts must be metric because one was too big and the next size down was too small. No problem, I've got about half a dozen metric wrenches around that size. The third one I try fits, 2.5mm. Fit is nice and snug, start turning it using a block of wood over the bolt to keep the wrench all the way down and the bolts starts to move. Good enough.
Move to bolt number 2. Wrench goes is and is loose. WTF? Try bolt 3 and the same result Take close look at bolt 2 and 3 and they are clearly damaged. Apparently when they were installed someone didn't have the proper sized tool and made due with what he had, partially stripping them in the process. Tried all my wrenches, of both varieties, and none fit correctly. Use the largest one I can fit in there, 2.5mm, the block of wood and it just messed them up more.
I stopped when I realized it wasn't going to work to ensure I didn't end up with round holes in the bolt head.
When I figure a way to get them out and can test the damn pump I'll be back.
Breaking things,
Josh
Get a torx bit/driver that is slightly larger than the hex and tap it in.
That will allow you to remove them.
You'll have to get new ones.
Just so you know, every single bolt on your bike is metric. Same with all other European and Japanese bikes. It's only Harley that have weird imperial stuff.
Pounded the screws and got them removed.
I removed two of the grub screws but stopped because the only wrench I have that fits is on a folding set and I am going to get a solo wrench tomorrow to do it right.
First thing I noticed is the cap base is backwards from other pictures I've seen. Does that matter? Notice the rust in the tank.
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7407/9141469577_5443631491.jpg)
When I turned the after market over I saw the gasket was cut or torn. It appears that it rubs against the lip on the cap base. It is cut about 80% around and I believe this is where my leak is coming from.
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3767/9143697812_8c519b2cff.jpg)
Close up of the cap base. It is coated in mung. Also a better view of the rust. The base is much dirtier than any base I've seen in pictures. When I get it out should I take the opportunity to clean it? Any advice on how to prevent the crap buildup or is that just part of living in the watery air that is Okinawa, Japan?
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7348/9141470413_1cf78f82fc.jpg)
Woot. Stupid Flickr! EAFD!
Thanks,
Josh
You need to use the share link in flikr for the pics to appear.
It looks to me like the drain tube from the cap base to the bottom fitting on the tank is clogged or the tube is pinched. Based on the amount of corrosion, I'd say the former.
About 20% of the tanks I repair have this problem. It's from letting the drain hose getting pinched which causes the tube to clog with rust.
Quote from: iltl32 on June 26, 2013, 04:50:40 PM
If the battery is working and you don't hear the fuel pump hum, the problem is the wiring in the fuel flange. It's a very well-known problem with these bikes. Basically the connection that passes through the fuel flange to the fuel pump fails because of shoddy solder. You have to take out the flange, dig out the putty, re-solder the wire, re-fill the flange with fuel-proof putty (JB Water Weld), and refit. Total cost is about $10 but it will take you many hours.
I also think CA Cycleworks sells a replacement flange for $150 or so.
To buy a new flange from Ducati is over $800.
I had to do this myself and can go into much greater detail if you want. But, like I said, if the battery is fine and the pump isn't priming, that's definitely the problem.
Also, it's not the relays. But if you really want to replace them get the Hela ones from Amazon for 5 bucks, not the expensive Ducati ones.
You're referring to a plastic tanked bike. He has a steel tank. A new sender is about $150.
Ducpainter,
Which of those holes is the drain tube? I think its the one on the left side of the picture that is depressed into the cap base. And I think you are saying it has a direct line from that depression to the bottom of the tank (and the ground). I'll know more, hopefully today, when I get the cap base off.
Speaking of the base, what is the best way to clean it and get the grime off?
As you mentioned rust, should I go all the way, remove and empty the tank and try to get the rust out or is this an acceptable amount of rust? My Kawasaki Vulcan has 0 rust but it was also a brand new bike when I bought it years ago.
Thanks,
Josh
Quote from: JoshuaCJCohen on June 26, 2013, 08:24:13 PM
Ducpainter,
Which of those holes is the drain tube? I think its the one on the left side of the picture that is depressed into the cap base. And I think you are saying it has a direct line from that depression to the bottom of the tank (and the ground). I'll know more, hopefully today, when I get the cap base off.
Speaking of the base, what is the best way to clean it and get the grime off?
As you mentioned rust, should I go all the way, remove and empty the tank and try to get the rust out or is this an acceptable amount of rust? My Kawasaki Vulcan has 0 rust but it was also a brand new bike when I bought it years ago.
Thanks,
Josh
Yes, it is the one on the left.
The corrosion on the base is not really a problem. You could clean it with a scotchbrite, but if there is any anodizing left it will probably remove it.
I'd recommend having the hinge reinforced and coating the tank. You'd need to find a weldor.
I use POR-15 which uses an acid treatment to get the rust out. I understand you're overseas and might not have access to everything we have here in the states
I've seen videos of people using apple cider vinegar to clean out the rust. Before I do any rust removal I assume I'll have to take out all electronics and tubes to prevent destruction of the wiring. I was going to try the same on the cap base and see how that works. I'll be sure to take lots of pictures when I get there.
What do you mean by coating the tank? Finding a welder shouldn't be too difficult but the hinge looks to be in good shape and is solidly mounted.
The hinge plate is just spot welded to the tank floor, and then the hinge is mig welded to the plate.
The spot welds are notorious for cracking and causing leaks. The fix is to braze around the perimeter of the hinge plate. If done correctly the paint damage won't show with the seat installed.
After brazing I recommend that the tank be coated with POR-15. That will eliminate your rust issue for good.
http://www.por15.com/CYCLE-TANK-REPAIR-KIT/productinfo/CTRK/ (http://www.por15.com/CYCLE-TANK-REPAIR-KIT/productinfo/CTRK/)
Got the cap base off. When it popped off (with the help of a claw foot hammer) dust exploded all over the top of the gas tank. I'm imagining plenty went inside too. Picture to follow.
Pulled the tubes off the base so I can soak it and try to clean it. Started putting my hands in to remove the filter and eventually get to the fuel pump and the whole inside that is dry is coated in dust. It is nasty. I've read the other topics about working in the gas tank and I don't understand how you can work in there. I'm not a big man, 5'10" and 195lbs, but I can barely move my hands around. Is there a secret I don't know or is the name of the game crushed hands?
There is just barely enough room.
You need to push the pump up out of it's bracket and then out. Put your hand in with your palm facing up and use your fingers to push up on the pump.
Some times it's painful.
Ok,
Success! Sort of.
Lets start with cap off and dust everywhere.
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7323/9159072238_fa03b3311d.jpg)
Dust (http://www.flickr.com/photos/98065323@N04/9159072238/#)
Better look with the rust and grime from the o-rings.
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7311/9156850555_afeffe824d.jpg)
Dust Rust Str8Up Nasty (http://www.flickr.com/photos/98065323@N04/9156850555/#)
I'm trying to get to the leads to the fuel pump but so luck with all the crap in the way so I start unscrewing clamps and removing hoses. Every time I touch the dry top of the tank my hand is coated in dust. And anything that has been submerged in gas is coated in mud. I get the pump loose and walla!
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7382/9156856513_234d345b6c.jpg)
Untitled (http://www.flickr.com/photos/98065323@N04/9156856513/#)
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3696/9156861111_9563148b9a.jpg)
Untitled (http://www.flickr.com/photos/98065323@N04/9156861111/#)
Yeah, that filter thing at the bottom of the pump is 85% clogged with mud and grit. You can't see it because the pic is out of focus but there is mud in every gap. And the tubing connecting the pump and filter is deteriorating and falling apart.
Test the leads and I've got 12Volts until the relay resets. Great. I plug the pump in just to see what happens and nothing. So either the pump is bad, clogged with grit and fried or the battery is toast under load. I'm going with option #1 or #2 which amounts to the same thing.
At this point I know the tank needs a complete overhaul so I take it off. While standing up on hinge getting the last of the fuel out I take a look inside and see the 1/4 to 1/2 inch of mud at the bottom.
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7306/9159090864_78d8ac89ff.jpg)
Mud (http://www.flickr.com/photos/98065323@N04/9159090864/#)
Here is the last of the gas I siphoned off. I'm assuming that is water with grit and rust.
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7395/9159093144_6fd20dd2a7.jpg)
Water with grit (http://www.flickr.com/photos/98065323@N04/9159093144/#)
Get the tank off and proceed to carefully remove the sending unit. Don't know when it happened, but when I got it out there was a tiny tear in the insulation on the ground wire. I might have done it or it might have come out that way. Don't know. Notice the mud on the unit and if you look closely, you can see a shiny part on the ground wire right where it comes out of the unit.
(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5456/9156898495_3f88542017.jpg)
Untitled (http://www.flickr.com/photos/98065323@N04/9156898495/#)
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3811/9156902013_ed019757a9.jpg)
Untitled (http://www.flickr.com/photos/98065323@N04/9156902013/#)
I've got a filter on order. Need to order a pump. I'm going to test the pump wires on the sending unit and see if it still works. If so then I'll epoxy the ground wire as I know the sending unit is good. Need to prep and seal the tank and put it all back together again. Might as well replace the tubes while everything is out and apart. Does the tubing need to be certain diameter? I'm assuming so but I don't know what dimensions are required for the different hoses.
This is the first time I've done this so I'm sure I'm missing something important. What am I not thinking of or what question should I be asking you?
Thanks
You need to use special submersible hose from the pump to filter and the filter to the tube. The short small diameter hoses not so.
SAE 30R10 specification and is capable of handling gasoline, alcohol-extended gasoline or diesel fuel in fully immersed, mobile, stationary and marine applications. It is available in 5/16†and 3/8†IDs with a working pressure rating of 100 psi.
You need 5/16' diameter.
Standard fuel line will not last.
NAPA sells it, but I believe it's made by Gates.
It's a miracle the bike ran.
Be careful with the small rubber vent hoses, they're not very robust.
California Cycleworks has an inexpensive pump.
I don't understand why he had trouble starting. All of that stuff should be able to burn at some point......
Quote from: SpikeC on June 28, 2013, 01:44:18 PM
I don't understand why he had trouble starting. All of that stuff should be able to burn at some point......
Probably battery. ;D
While I'm waiting for parts and other items should I clean the tank out and the fuel sender off? Is it safe to use water on them? My plan is to just wash the fuel sender off and use water to get the mass amounts of mud out of the tank, then soak it in apple cider vinegar in prep for the POR-15. Or am I only going to make it harder on myself in the long run?
Regarding the smaller hoses, do they not have to be SAE 30R10 spec because they aren't submerged all the time? Would it be better to just use the sturdy line instead? And you were right, the hose that connected to the cap base drain was kinked. When previous owner put the aftermarket cap on he turned the cap around and the hose ran across the bump in the tank pinching it off.
Thanks,
Josh
Quote from: JoshuaCJCohen on June 28, 2013, 05:37:58 PM
While I'm waiting for parts and other items should I clean the tank out and the fuel sender off? Is it safe to use water on them? My plan is to just wash the fuel sender off and use water to get the mass amounts of mud out of the tank, then soak it in apple cider vinegar in prep for the POR-15. Or am I only going to make it harder on myself in the long run?
Regarding the smaller hoses, do they not have to be SAE 30R10 spec because they aren't submerged all the time? Would it be better to just use the sturdy line instead? And you were right, the hose that connected to the cap base drain was kinked. When previous owner put the aftermarket cap on he turned the cap around and the hose ran across the bump in the tank pinching it off.
Thanks,
Josh
The POR kit has everything you need to clean the junk out. Water and vinegar will do no harm, but it's an unnecessarily step.
The Marine Clean will also clean the old pump screen and the sender...just save some before or after.
The small hoses don't need to be the same spec because they are not pressurized.
Make sure the metal tubes in the tank are clear. You can check with compressed air. I've had success clearing blocked tubes with the acid in the kit and some mig wire twisted with safety wire pliers to stiffen it. Do it before you do your POR process.
It can be tedious.
Apple cider vinegar has a lot of stuff in it that isn't acetic acid.
If it was my tank, I'd swish some phosphoric acid around it. That'll turn the iron oxide to iron phosphate, which is stable.
Quote from: suzyj on June 28, 2013, 06:08:04 PM
Apple cider vinegar has a lot of stuff in it that isn't acetic acid.
If it was my tank, I'd swish some phosphoric acid around it. That'll turn the iron oxide to iron phosphate, which is stable.
That's the acid included in the POR kit.
Quote from: suzyj on June 28, 2013, 06:08:04 PM
Apple cider vinegar has a lot of stuff in it that isn't acetic acid.
If it was my tank, I'd swish some phosphoric acid around it. That'll turn the iron oxide to iron phosphate, which is stable.
Will phosphoric acid stabilize it enough that the POR-15 wont be required? I'd rather not wait a month for that stuff to arrive if I don't have to.
Quote from: JoshuaCJCohen on June 28, 2013, 06:25:52 PM
Will phosphoric acid stabilize it enough that the POR-15 wont be required? I'd rather not wait a month for that stuff to arrive if I don't have to.
The acid alone won't prevent it from reoccurring.
When I was washing out the tank removing the accumulated grime, this fell out. I don't know where it goes or what it is for.
(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5448/9164021758_02bd3a9443.jpg)
I soaked the cap base in vinegar for about two hours. Washed it off, opened the clogged holes, cleaned the groove the green O ring fits in, looks good but rough. As I would expect with aluminum. Ready to go back on the tank when it is done.
Even though the gas tank is off I hooked everything up (jump wire from T30 to T87 in the fuel pump relay), reconnected the 4 terminal connector and retested the fuel sender leads. 12VDC. On a whim I connected the fuel pump and it buzzed to live for about 10 seconds before it quit. I had previously cleaned the leads and prongs. I think the filth was interfering with the current. But if that was all it was why did the pump shut down after 10 seconds? If this is normal operation should I still replace it or is this one good?
Lastly, and this might be a stupid question, can someone explain to me the piping in the tank? I've got two hoses that connect to the cap base and that piping goes overboard. I've got the pump to the filter to a pipe that should go to the engine. At the bottom I've also got a pipe that is right next to the pump. This is either a return like for excess fuel and shutdown or a gravity feed to the other piston. Since the sludge is always going to gather at the bottom I assume this is a return line. Can someone please verify?
Thanks,
Josh
The rubber piece is a baffle to prevent gas from sloshing up to the cap when the tank is full. It mounts to the cap holder on the bottom. You can reinstall it, but chances are it will fall off again.
The pump running for 10 seconds and then stopping is normal. That's the ecu telling the pump to prime. I'm not certain if the pump starts again during the cranking cycle or when the bike starts.
I think you have a bad solder joint in the fuel sender. I think when you removed it you moved the wires around enough to get a connection.
Take your meter and set it to ohms and test the wires going into the tank while moving them around. One lead to each end of an individual wire...no voltage or you'll fry the meter.
The two large diameter tubes are fuel feed and return. There is no gravity feed on a FI bike. The return tube is close to the tank bottom.
The small tubes are cap area drain and vent.
Quote from: ducpainter on June 29, 2013, 03:22:50 AM
The rubber piece is a baffle to prevent gas from sloshing up to the cap when the tank is full. It mounts to the cap holder on the bottom. You can reinstall it, but chances are it will fall off again.
The pump running for 10 seconds and then stopping is normal. That's the ecu telling the pump to prime. I'm not certain if the pump starts again during the cranking cycle or when the bike starts.
I think you have a bad solder joint in the fuel sender. I think when you removed it you moved the wires around enough to get a connection.
Take your meter and set it to ohms and test the wires going into the tank while moving them around. One lead to each end of an individual wire...no voltage or you'll fry the meter.
The two large diameter tubes are fuel feed and return. There is no gravity feed on a FI bike. The return tube is close to the tank bottom.
The small tubes are cap area drain and vent.
Baffle is optional then? I wont install it. I see no need for it to float around the tank needlessly.
Multimeter was variable for about 10 seconds after I got the leads hooked up, then it settled in at 5 Ohms. (I was on the RX10 setting so I'm assuming that is 50 ohms?) Once it settled on the 5 mark I couldn't get it to budge no matter how I moved the wires.
Copy all on the tubes. Thanks. Where do I find a lead on the epoxy to clean up the wires on the fuel sender?
Thanks.
Did you check both power and ground?
50 ohms is a lot for that short piece of wire. I would expect close to zero.
I got nothing on what to coat the bare spot on the wire.
Ducpainter,
Maybe I didn't do it right. I connected the 4 terminal harness back up and had the fuel pump relay installed. I put the multimeter red to the red wire and the black to the black. I don't know what you mean when you say "Did you check both power and ground?" I would say "Yes, I checked them at the same time." Was that the right configuration?
I just retested the ohm meter. On RX10 is reads 5. On RX100 it reads 3. On RX1K it reads 2. It is an analog multimeter. Does that mean it's has 50, 300 or 2K ohms resistance? I doubt it. I'll try to get a digital meter and redo.
When you check resistance you don't use voltage as I said in my post earlier.
Quote from: ducpainter on June 29, 2013, 03:22:50 AM
The rubber piece is a baffle to prevent gas from sloshing up to the cap when the tank is full. It mounts to the cap holder on the bottom. You can reinstall it, but chances are it will fall off again.
The pump running for 10 seconds and then stopping is normal. That's the ecu telling the pump to prime. I'm not certain if the pump starts again during the cranking cycle or when the bike starts.
I think you have a bad solder joint in the fuel sender. I think when you removed it you moved the wires around enough to get a connection.
Take your meter and set it to ohms and test the wires going into the tank while moving them around. One lead to each end of an individual wire...no voltage or you'll fry the meter.
The two large diameter tubes are fuel feed and return. There is no gravity feed on a FI bike. The return tube is close to the tank bottom.
The small tubes are cap area drain and vent.
You set the meter on the 10x scale and check resistance with one test lead on each end of the
same wire.
The black and the red wires of the sender are the ones we're concerned with here. If the solder joints in the sender are still sound you'll get very close to a zero reading.
I'm a big fan of diving in and learning, but I'm starting to think you're best off taking your bike to a professional.
Quote from: suzyj on July 01, 2013, 05:41:03 AM
I'm a big fan of diving in and learning, but I'm starting to think you're best off taking your bike to a professional.
I think he'll be OK if he takes the time to actually read the posts.
Ok, that was embarrassing.
Testing each wire individually, with a lead at each end, I have between 0 and 1 Ohm on the RX10 scale, which is the smallest scale available.
I did say this was my first time doing any maintenance on an engine. Luckily, I'm not really working on the engine.
I really appreciate everyone's help. Just realize what is obvious to you, testing resistance across a single wire, is not obvious to me. And keep on with the pokes, I know I deserve it. I've got thick skin.
Victory.
I realize it isn't obvious which is why I tried to make the instructions explicit.
Did you move the wires around during the correct resistance test?
I did. I saw no fluctuations on the multimeter.
Quote from: JoshuaCJCohen on July 01, 2013, 06:50:06 AM
I did. I saw no fluctuations on the multimeter.
In that case the sender
should be OK. They are a known issue. Much more so than faulty pumps. Your call as to whether you trust it.
You have to decide if you trust the old pump, now that it is running, or if you replace it because you're in there.
Now that you know how much fun it is to remove it's your call as to whether you want to possibly have to go through this again.
My indecision stems from the fact you really haven't found a cause for the pump not running one day and then running after disassembly.
I've ordered the PRO-15 cleaning kit, new filter, new pump, new screen and new hoses. With all that I'm going to reassemble after prepping the tank and see what happens.
As the fuel lines are now disconnected to I need to cover them or seal them to prevent moisture from entering the engine? I've wrapped syran wrap with rubberbands around the opening for now. Is this required and is there a better method?
I wouldn't worry about it with what you've already done.
I put the old fuel pump in a bucket of gas and connected it to the battery with jump wires. Came to life no problem. I was hoping to confirm it was dead or not and clean it out if it wasn't. Sure enough there was a significant amount of rust chips at the bottom of the bucket. Is there anything in the fuel pump that would rust or is that rust from the inside of the tank? If it is rust from the tank will running fuel through it clean all the rust out or is the pump a lost cause?
(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5548/9214032146_eff42de9a6.jpg)
if it is salvageable I will keep the old one as an emergency spare as I have a new one on the way from the States.
Now convinced that my problem was dirty and corroded leads I connected all the wires (4 terminal under the seat, fuel sending unit wires to fuel pump) put my new fuel filter inline between the old fuel pump and the engine inlet, put the pump back in a clean bucket of gas and turned the key. Fuel pumps energized and primed. I hit the start button and the engine, after a few sputters, roared to life pulling fuel from the bucket. I let it run for about 10 minutes and shut it down.
I will not be putting everything back together as the gas tank's corrosion seems to be the guilty party for all my troubles and I have to clean that up first. But I think this test confirms my problem was dirty tank, rusty gas and corroded leads. Ducpainter, Howie, do you have another theory or idea what might have been the problem?
I personally have never seen corroded connections at the pump be an issue, but anything is possible.
Like I said in an earlier post, it's your call as to whether you put it back together with the old parts without finding the actual cause of the issue.
What would be the next step in trying to find out the actual cause?
I'm not sure you ever will unless you put it all back and it fails again.
I'll report when I get my tank cleaned up and put back together!
PRO-15 kit arrived Wed. I spend about 6 hours on Friday afternoon and got it resealed. The second stage didn't take of nearly as much rust as I thought it would. I went to work with some steel wool and got as much as I could reach but there was significant amounts left over after the multiple rinses. Not that it mattered. When I poured the sealer into the tanks it was only then that I realized I essentially had a can of liquid metal and it was going to cover up all the rust spots. Going to wait 6 days vice the instructed 4 as I live on a tropical island and the cure time might not cut it. I'll be putting it back together next Friday or Saturday.
Josh
High heat and humidity actually speed the cure of the POR product as it is a moisture cure urethane.
POR recommends 96 hours at 700 F and 50% relative humidity. The rule of thumb for urethane cure is that for every 150 F the temp rises you can cut the cure time in half.
Your call.
Painter,
Temp for the week is 80 to 90 and relative humidity here is 80% - 95%. By your math I should be done in about 2 days but since I don't have lots of spare time during the week anyway, I'll plan on letting it sit most of the week.
I would let it sit for 96 hours anyway. I'd hate to screw it up after all this time because I rushed it by a few hours.
Talk to you in a few days.
Josh
I wasn't really suggesting to rush. Just that extra time isn't necessary due to tropical conditions,
Tank is back together. I've put the fuel cap base in the tank and got the seal in place. I'm in the process of putting the fuel cap cover on. As you can see in this first photo there is a rubber gasket that sits over the air drain hole in the cap base. It is fairly tall and from the way it is inserted I can only assume it is designed to allow air to flow through the drain lines as the other hole, the one with the depression, is for excess liquids that gather in the cap base.
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7407/9141469577_5443631491_b.jpg)
The issue is with my aftermarket fuel cap cover. In the second picture you can see a plastic nub on the left side of the cap ring. There is a hole in that nub. In the first picture you can see that hole does not go all the way through the cap cover. That hole, I believe, is designed to line up directly over the gasket for what I'm calling the air line. If fitted properly and tightened down I believe this will seal off the air line and inhibit the flow of fluids through the drain line.
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3767/9143697812_8c519b2cff_b.jpg)
1) Is this something I should be worried about or am I analyzing this completely wrong?
2) What is the purpose of the plastic nub that covers the rubber gasket? From the height of the gasket I don't believe it is to prevent liquid from getting in the air line.
3) Should I puncture the gasket or cut a V in the top to allow air to flow into it when the cap cover, and nub, are in place?
Thanks,
Josh
The rubber fitting is for the vent not the drain. The rubber fitting was to allow the tank to vent to the charcoal canister. The drain is on the left side of the cap base. Based on the corrosion on your cap base I suspect that drain tube is clogged, or the rubber hose under the tank was kinked.
If you have removed the charcoal canister from your bike just remove the rubber fitting.
Those two lines go from the cap to lines in the tank and through the tank to the bottom. Once outside the tank they merge about 4 inches below the tank and are one line through the frame to drip onto the ground. I don't know where or what the charcoal canister is or was located but I'm assuming it was in the frame under the fuel tank.
Yes, I understand the rubber fitting is for a vent, which is why the fitting is so tall, to prevent liquid from getting in that line. Seems someone made a mod and combined the vent and drain lines. I'll be pulling it off.
Thanks,
Josh
Quote from: JoshuaCJCohen on September 11, 2013, 07:16:33 AM
Those two lines go from the cap to lines in the tank and through the tank to the bottom. Once outside the tank they merge about 4 inches below the tank and are one line through the frame to drip onto the ground. I don't know where or what the charcoal canister is or was located but I'm assuming it was in the frame under the fuel tank.
Yes, I understand the rubber fitting is for a vent, which is why the fitting is so tall, to prevent liquid from getting in that line. Seems someone made a mod and combined the vent and drain lines. I'll be pulling it off.
Thanks,
Josh
The charcoal canister has had various locations depending on generation. If your lines are siamesed together it is gone.
Check that line that is the cap area drain.
It is gone. After the tank the two lines join together and go through the frame to drain out. When I started this project the drain line and the drain hole in the gas cap base were both clogged. Even the metal line through the tank was clogged. I snaked it out with some safety wire, high pressure water and an air compressor. When I put the cap base in I made sure the line connecting the drain to the in-tank-metal line was very short so it couldn't kink up and cause a blockage. When it's all hooked back up I'll put some water in the cap base to test the draining capacity. Living in Okinawa one thing we're not short of is rain.
When replacing the Sender Unit I wasn't sure how tight to make it. I remember the posts and pictures of broken plastic nuts so I was overly cautious and only put it on hand tight. I put about 5 cups of gas in the tank and it leaked immediately. I grabbed a wrench and tightened it down some more but I'm not sure how far to go. I don't have a torque wrench but can get one. Is there a spec for that plastic nut or do I tighten it until I see the plastic start to whiten from the strain?
If everything was clean just snug it up until it stops.
You can't reef on that plastic nut, or it will crack long before it changes color.
Ok. I have since filled the tank and because of my crappy after market cap system I can't lift the tank. So for now I'm living with a very slow leak. It appears under the rubber housing that hides the wires. Whenever I pull the rubber down there is a slight amount of moisture in there. It would appear the internal o-ring is not seated correctly. When I burn some gas down I'll snug it up some more.
BTW, when I first started it I had to jump it but I rode it around the block for 20 minutes and then shut it down. Started up it a little while later and it fired up first time. Fuel pumps are priming and the starter is turning over. There is a bit of hesitation with the starter but before this all started the fuel pumps wouldn't prime at all. If there is a starter issue I think it's a separate issue. Once I get my road documents in order (driving in Japan is a bureaucratic nightmare) and the slow lead handled I'll be able to look more closely at the starter.
Thanks,
Josh
It sounds like the sending unit is leaking through the epoxy potting.
Tightening won't stop it.
New sending unit? Any after market ones or only through the dealers?
Quote from: JoshuaCJCohen on September 14, 2013, 07:10:59 AM
New sending unit? Any after market ones or only through the dealers?
Yes...a new one.
Dealer item or used. They are pricey new, but you know what it's like to take the tank internals out. Do you want to gamble on a used one not working?
I would go new.