Ducati Monster Forum

...about not allowing people to join to just sell stuff in the classifieds?

The classifieds section can be set up to not allow anyone with less than say...25 posts...to be allowed to post.

It might cut into your sales of items unless you check pm's or your email if visible.

There is no boobies option. :-*

25 posts x # of people who post just to sell stuff may equal lots of inane postage

OTH, make it 200 - just noticed that I hit that with this post. Been on here since close to the beginning  [roll]

There's that...without doubt...

How many will actually go to the trouble? :-\

Totally agree.  I have joined other forums to sell stuff before that had this prerequisite.  All I did was post 25 "bump"s and "+1"s to get my post count to 25.

What is the motivation for doing this?  People that sell stuff that aren't worried about a bad reputation?

Two responses.

The glib:  So nothing much will change then  ;D.

The serious:  I think there ought be some minimum post level (and FWIW I'd set it higher than 25).  IMO it may deter some of the opportunist blow-ins whose only purpose in venturing here is to place a free ad in front of a narrowly targeted audience.

But if it was up to me, I'd lock away entire sections of the board to non-members too.

At worst it will have little effect.  At best it might filter out a few wankers.  So on balance, it does no harm and I support it.

In case you haven't noticed...

this a community...

not an economic opportunity.

I review every person that signs up.

Just today I have 2 that are only joining to sell shit.

That's what the motivation is.

Don't forget us long time low post count lurkers ;D Maybe a post count / time on the board combo?

actually that last poster brings up a good point. It seems to me.. that if your looking to "weed out" some folks who are just looking to sell. The better criteria to use would be "member since" time.  Ie: if i was in a rush to sell something today, theres nothing to stop me from bumping and posting plus 1 on everything to get to "25". But nothing in the world is going to allow me to go back in time and sign up 6 months ago.. just so I can post today.

I agree with Ung and DP, but I hadnt considered the genuine, passive lurkers.

Maybe that combination with 50 posts, but a compulsory donation to the board funds for those joining to sell. Hit 'em in the hip pocket?

If thats too complicated, then just the bosses ruthless discretion [evil].

Have at least 2000 posts to sell shit

For me, just looking at the post count is good enough.  Unless the poster is someone I consider a solid member of this community if I can't see it in person i ain't buyin' it!

Every community needs its hardasses! [laugh]

But you'll make the exception for spare 620 pipes, right?



Agree With DucC..2K

Hey, just because I think fly screens are for pussies does not make me a hardass.

 [thumbsdown]

Would this be in the wanted ads as well?

Come on..you've seen them..err one..posted enough Howie.  I'm sure you could mod them into a hell of a potato gun to shoot those evil squirrels!   ;D



DP..I've only gone into the section a handful of times.  I didn't recognize but maybe 2-3 members.  Not sure I would buy from those people unless I could get someone here to put in a good word for them.  Read too many horror story threads in here to just buy from anyone.

I agree with a required post count but it should be much more then 25. I agree with a member since requirement as well.

The last guy I had a problem with used this place as Craigslist. He didn't give two shits about any sense of community.

You're right. The more I think about it the more I come to the conclusion it should be MUCH more than 25.  Add a zero and we're getting close maybe...

We know.  And these proposed measures wouldn't have stopped him anyway.  Maybe it's time to suck that one up and move on now, eh.

I did. But it's relevant to this discussion.

How so?

Read my post. It's pretty clear how it was relevant. Either proposed option....if set to a longer term then 25 posts and/or the  proposed "member since" may have kept him out of the classifieds. 95% of his posts were in the classifieds.

I read your post.  And don't agree that it was pretty clear.... that's why I asked. 

If it was pretty clear I would've pretty clearly comprehended it's relevance.

Rather, what I thought.... was that it's pretty unclear what a long term, fairly prolific former poster has to do with this discussion.

That's why.

I asked  :-*.

I actually think he's the exception and including him as part of the consideration only muddies the waters.  Guys like that will buck any system, more's the pity. 

But setting minimum requirements may filter out the casual opportunist.  On that we can agree I think.

I'm only talking about selling.

I agree with the member since count. number of post is your choice.
You do such a good job here your judgement is ok with me.

But I'm not very active, so there is that

I think the member since thing can be defeated as someone joins up and then goes and does whatever on a couple of the VS boards and comes back months later with 3 posts to try and sell what didn't on the VS boards...

post count limitation will deter most I think...those that post "+1" and "bump" postings could potentially be moderated to have those posts removed if it is noticed that in fact it is what they are doing, which SHOULD bring their post count back down below that threshold....but that requires a little more vigilance from the current mod staff...something that ( from what I can see) apparently is a bit more work for the current active staff...perhaps a couple more mods to be added to aid in this?!?!?!

+1.    ;D

Not sure it matters at this point but I vote for a lower post count, say 15, and a length of membership of say 3 months.

I recently tried to sell some items on the ducati.ms forum but couldn't because I didn't have the 25 posts. I've been a lurker on there for a year, occasionally learning something new, etc, etc. But, since I have this forum, I really have no reason to post on there. I think I'm at 17 posts, but I'm not going to say meaningless crap for 8 more just to get to the number, because I know that pisses people off. 15 posts and lurking for 3 months pretty well validates somebody as at least being interested in Monsters. There will still be the folks that you have to boot out or even just live with. But I'm weary of making it too difficult to get in because then we may start missing out on great opportunities to buy nice, second-hand parts.

I am more in favor of the "member since" option. I don't post often but I am on the site nearly every day just reading new post or old posts. I don't have anything to sell, but that could be changing (2006 S2R 1K Shock any one?:)  )

The more thought I put into it the more I think time as a member should be considered more than post count.  Personally I would make it more than 90 days before any new member can post to the classifieds.  This will discourage those that join just to sell shit.  It will also give the community a little bit of time to get to know them before sending them money for something.

Time as a member is good for the community, number of posts?  not so much.

I'm going to throw in another vote for considering both "member since" and the post count. Adding the member since time into the equation will reduce the chances of getting "bump" posts while not preventing members who just don't post a lot - like myself.

If we don't include post count in the equation, time as a member will not give us time to get to know them as you could theoretically satisfy the time requirement without posting at all.

Like this guy: http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?action=profile;u=15 (http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?action=profile;u=15)

This. I have a hard time trusting a new member with little posts or time to deliver goods. It helps to separate the scammers.

Unless you lock all forums who's to say that the scammers won't post "for sale" ads in the general forum or other forums that are free for everyone to post?  that would add more work for moderators removing "for sale" ads in forums that they don't belong.

my .02

The mods keep up with that daily.

if they do that....thread gets gone faster actually and the "member" gets disciplined or suspended or booted and they have in certain cases blocked the IP address to keep them from coming back...

Tying in the time/post concept like a vehicle time/mileage.   3 months/300 posts, whichever comes first.  (Or whatever other # seems to work.)




Initial thought was to let first timers post in classifieds.  Maybe they're not "community" types but still good, decent people with, perhaps, a steal of a 796 within close proximity to me that I might not come across otherwise.     ;)

But the point that this is our community and not Craigslist/an economic boost for some tool is also spot on.

Add me to the "time + posts" group.

A 90-day minimum will get rid of the quick-and-easy riffraff.  A 25-post count, while easy to circumvent, also adds work on their part and discourages the riffraff.  Basically, the only people you're gonna get gaming that system are the hardcore scammers or dedicated sellers.

I presume there would be an exemption for new board sponsors?

A time based restriction will keep out most of the 'one-stop' sellers.

Adding a minimum number of posts to that allows us *some* idea of what they're like.

^^+1^^

^^ This.

I get the enthusiasm for a "time onboard" restriction, but IMO a high minimum post count is the way to go. 

With all due respect to the long time lurkers who have every right to be passive viewers here..... if you've no experiences to share.... no help to offer... nothing to say.... you aint making the effort to be known.  And if you're not putting in to this community, I for one don't too much mind if you miss out on just some of what you can get back out of here.

There is a reason I didn't offer a 'member since' option.

The forum software can be set up to deny a specific  permission to a specific group in a specific board.

There is no way to enforce a member since option other than one of the admins to read every for sale ad every day. That creates more work IMO, and doesn't really solve the issue. We're not going to add moderators. The place works fine with the current crew.

As far as a bunch of junk posts to bump up post counts?

That's easily remedied.

So, since the posts will need to be quality it will take a while to get there depending on the count.

I think too high a number will be counterproductive. It will just limit the number of items the membership will be offered.

You lurkers should post up more and become part of the community.

Quality posts?  Oh hell so much for me using the classifieds  ;D ;D

 On another forum I frequent the minimum posts to sell is 50. Some get around this by responding to every newish member with a "welcome!" post which is a bit annoying.
 I do think that a 50 post threshold works pretty well, though.
 As long as they aren't selling used batteries.

Same here.
I get more than I give. I read this forumn a bunch. The
folks here are very entertaining.

best bet would probably be monitoring "Total time logged in"

Can new, low count, members be automatically introduced to an email address they can send the offer to if they are convinced their offer is worthy special treatment?  

I don't want to have to monitor anything.

No

It can all be done by writing a bit of code. You are already collecting the data it seems.

I'm sure it can, but you can be logged in and not contribute a thing to the forum

Besides, I'm not a code person, and SMF has been known to get wonky, or other modifications will cease working when custom modifications are written in.

There is already a very simple way to do it and I like simple.

People with less than x posts won't be able to start a thread in the for sale sections.

I think a person's ability to post classified adds on the board should be directly tied to the number of instances they've insulted IZ.  No for sale posts unless you have ridiculed him (hobbit jokes, IZ_ pictures, stories of nails or bee stings, you get the idea) at least a hundred times.



 ;D

So Let It Be Written (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3bQnxlHZsjY#)

+1 and bump

just trying to get my post count up. i might have some shit to sell in a few months  ;D


jk of course, very cool that you put this to a group decision. its things like this that separate this forum from so many others.

The time as a member option is dead. I think DP made it pretty clear, he can easily set up a post count wall but there isn't an automatic way to deny users based on time as members. He can also delete their 24 +1's as he see's fit. So that seems to be the solution but I still think 50 would be a better threshold.

And the constant abuse of IZ.

I'll modify the poll to add higher post counts.

You'll be able to change your vote.

Here's what I think:

We're all adults and can choose from whom and what we buy in person, so why not online?

If I see a single poster and he has something I want desperately, I could care less if he didn't post 2000 times in the "what are you listening to?" thread (no offense, Kopf)

We tend to talk enough, within sellers posts even, to warn people buying if this are scammers after the first one.

don't allow anyone who has not "donated" to the board to post in the for sale classifieds...

Donate (http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=1241.0)

They can use ebay for that. Or they can come here to sell with no fees and "use" the DMF. I think that's the issue ....but I'm currently on Percocet so I may be wrong.

I've bought and sold to people with <25 and >500 post, haven't had a problem yet. If people come here to sell parts that somebody might need is that a problem?

agree

sketchy parts don't sell.

Just my 2 cents.....

fairly new to the boards compared to some of you guys, but i'm on here almost daily coming up with ideas and readin about what others are up to.  i'm always lookin at the deals in the for sale section too, i'd totally support a minimum time and number of posts...

 Thanks for the option to change my vote!

if someone comes here with less than 25 posts but has something for a good price, the only people that lose out are members.

adding limits only encourages the the perception of 'elitist ducati owners.'

I've seen other boards do the same thing. It's not an snob thing.

If somebody comes here to sell something for a good price but has less than 25 posts (or hopefully a limit of greater than that)... they'll still sell the good priced item elsewhere, so no reason for any alert buyer to miss out.   

Ebay is a commercial market place.   IMO the DMF is a meeting place for enthusiasts.... who may also seek to buy/sell and trade amongst each other.  There's a difference. 

Who gives a flying make the beast with two backsing rat's arse what others do or don't think of we Ducati owners  [cheeky].

Agreed.
Bullsshit

I'll chime in. On another forum I'm a member of a photographer community. They sell stuff too...and sometimes that helps a ton with expensive photography equipment. But you have to have 200 posts and be a member for a minimum of 90 days. I've been a member for 2 years! I only have 100ish posts. I read more then I post. BUT, I fully meat the other requirement. I say 50 posts is a fair number, maybe with a month period to wait o post in classifeds?

Just so everyone understands...

there is no easy way to do the time thing so that won't happen.

The question is simply should we require a minimum post count to start a thread in any for sale section.

It won't affect wanted posts.

OFFS

Put a 50 post minimum on there. It weeds out those that have the patience to post +1's 25 times yet its low enough to not discourage real people that are "one of us"

(http://farm1.staticflickr.com/43/90811910_4bd1985f37_z.jpg)

Yes. [thumbsup]

So far the 25ers are in front.
I went for 50.
Nifty 50 or shifty 50, but the mods should see the pattern of posting behaviour.
Whatever number, the mods will have some patterns to observe to decide if the poster is real. That's what matters.

We're not snobs, just trying to protect something we love.

I think the 25 is in the lead because 50 wasn't an option when the poll started. If I remember correctly there was 22 votes for the 25 post count when the 50 was added. Since then 14 new votes have come in for 50 or more and 1 for the 25. I doubt many people are gonna come  back and change their vote.

I say take a vote among the seven founders and be done with it.

^^ There ya go  [thumbsup]

Although if the 50 posts all look like this  >>  http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=64577.0 (http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=64577.0)  <<  it won't help much...

 I vote for 50 again so that i will have enough posts!

Why should the number of posts keep one from selling an item to a loyal community? Can someone not try to sell an item to a community of people who may be looking to buy? Theoretically if I was looking for a set of stock mufflers and there happened to be a passerby that had some mufflers for sale, I would want to know of that sale. Potentially buying said item. Perhaps they had a link to eBay. What is the harm of being forwarded to an external service? Are they not helping the community by offering an opportunity to buy a set of used mufflers? Having a requirement of a certain number of posts leads to excessive responses such as +1, quoting, or non-contributing responses to subjects. I would rather have them contribute by offering an item to a loyal member than just "checking" the 25 posts "box" in order to sell.

wow.  I thought we were sharing our opinions.  why even have the "let anyone post" option if we're clearly not going that direction?  Why ask at all, just implement what you want?

I believe if the poll was overwhelmingly in favor of letting anyone post nothing would change.

really all the ads should just be emailed to me for review prior to posting. That way I can snap up all the good deals.

I vote 50. To me, this place is a community-I've donated money to make sure it stays up, I've given to no end of fundraisers for our own, and like to think I can trust the members here. It's a community first, and the classifieds are just a small convenience.

There's plenty of other places to sell things.

Another forum I'm on does 30 days + 25 posts. That way you cant just warrior up to 25 and spam the Classifieds.

I hear Ducati is gonna make a motard.

The only direction we're clearly not going is having a TIME BASED limit. What makes you assume anything else?

That is exactly the case.

Well put. P, must be using your log in. [cheeky]

I'm bumping this because 57 votes out of almost 11K members isn't enough..

C'mon people...be heard.

... I think members should have at least 50 posts to be allowed to vote in this poll.

And that unless you have voiced your opinion by voting in this poll...  You shouldn't be allowed to sell  ;D

Is this like American Idol where we can vote as many times as we want?  Hard to think so many are apathetic or have no opinion.  Especially the no opinion part  ;D

 I'm going to keep voting for 50 posts until I vote 50 times.
Unless i'm told not to!

I think anyone should be able to post a classified ad.   Why would we want to limit the awesome goodies we can buy?  Is the goal to eliminate scammers?  If yes, then I guess it's a decent idea to make a post count rule.  If the goal isn't to stop scammers then I don't get it. 

true what is the goal of limiting who can post sale items?

I think this sums it up pretty well.

how is trying to sell us something we all may need or want an opportunist? and how is it harmful to the community?

I don't think anyone said it was harmful, but it certainly doesn't fit the definition of participating in the community. I would tend to agree with ung that having a targeted audience is taking advantage of a great opportunity.

The question is simply, as a community, do we want to allow anyone to come here just to sell stuff and then go on their way? If you think it's OK that's fine.

I think I know how you vote.  ;D

That said, with only .005% percent participation in the voting things aren't likely to change.

well put it this way for other's when they're deciding to vote.

what happens when that guy that owns the entire RoadRacing collection on his bike is told to sell off his bike or lose his wife of 20 years he really does love more than his motorcycle, and the only people he knows that loves motorcycles like we do, well...

so he gets online, which he has little time for, so probably never posted but one or twice to introduce himself, and can't post them here....

it's our loss, not his IMO.

I don't think it harms the community to have un-vetted members put stuff up for sale.  If the individual buys without some  assurance that it's not a scam then they're a bit of an idiot.

...and everyone is allowed to change their vote.

If I remember correctly I sold and bought a lot of good stuff before I hit fifty and would not have wasted time bumping to do it.  Some might but if they are that state of mind I think we would see it and not buy from said person, (trying to sound like an attorney, did it work?) If you can't smell out a scammer selling crap then you deserve to buy it, so just to keep out the one or two who would actually waste the forum time to sell I say 50 at the most.  I may not be paying close enough attention to the problem, have the evil craigslister hoards from the north breached the gates.

DP do what you think is best.

I hit the 25
 

I'm new to the forum/ ducs / sport bikes but thought I'd through in my 2 cents. I'm on the site daily but have virtually no posts. Frankly, I have more to learn than contribute at this point. 

I bought a 2012 1100 off a board in June. I also practically never sell a bike once I buy it. I still have a 1986 Honda 250r fourtrax I bought in 1988 and the first street bike I bought in1993. Point is that I little vested interest in selling on the board.

I like to look at the classifieds to keep plugged into the market even though I'm no longer in the market.  I consider the classifieds another plus for the forum so my vote would be to not restrict posting.

If you must restrict, and not sure if this is possible, but could you restrict based on member status. e.g. 1 classified per month/year as a new member with an increase as a jr member etc? Not to complicate the matter but just a thought.

there is no issue with anything like restricting the ability to see and read any of the classifieds.....or even with posting a "wanted" ad...but this is particularly to restrict the posting/starting of new for sale ad's to deter the people that have no will to be a part of the community and are just looking to join, sell an item or items and then move on without a care to come back...so then we end up with people who are on the list of members who are not real active members here( hence the term "community" that DP is being keen to spotlight)...hence why we have 11K members here and only a few hundred or more who are actually active in the community and perhaps a couple hundred extra reading lurkers who feel like they have nothing yet to add...

To be precise...

New Member    *    10486        
Jr. Member    **        442        
Full Member    ***        467       
Sr. Member    ****    252
Hero Member    *****  371

That equals 1532 members that are what I consider contributing members.

To elaborate on zooom's comment...

The only restriction would be to disallow members with fewer than the required # of posts from starting a for sale thread. Everyone will still be allowed to read all the flea market sections.

Any member would still be allowed to respond to a WTB post by a member, so the policy doesn't really prevent anyone from selling, or buying desirable items   . It would only prevent the classifieds from becoming more like craigslist than it already is.

As I said earlier, without more participation in the poll, nothing is likely to change. Even if you figure the percentage using only the 1500 more active members we only have slightly over 1% participation.

Thanks for the clarification and perhaps given this is my fourth post, I shouldn't be weighing in.  I realize that the discussion doesn't restrict view, only the ability to post in the classifieds... my point is there would be less to see in the classifieds with a posting restriction.  

Maybe just the point of keeping the community to those who will be contributing?  Maybe it is a server / space issue to have so many members?  

In the end, I defer to the active community and only give the point of view from a new member getting to know the board...  take it or leave it.   I enjoy the board and will hopefully become more active as time goes on.  

i voted for a flat tax

We have no space issues on our server. We use than 10% of it's capabilities.

You still missed the point.

Again, the only restriction will be that of starting a new for sale thread.

Any member may post in a WTS thread started by a member with those privileges and buy the item.

Any member may start a WTB thread in the appropriate section, and any member can offer that item to them.


I'm going to assassinate the real toaster if I get the chance.

Thanks DP.  I am on the same page... I probably just have not communicated that appropriately... my wife says I'm a poor communicator too!   :(

I was trying to say, if someone wanted to sell a bike, and couldn't on the board, then the classified wouldn't be there.  Less classifieds to see, less bikes for sale to see. 

I'm good.  No need to clarify any further. 

I disagree with that thought...if you are adding value to a discussion ( which I feel you certainly aren't detracting value and helping make the point/case which we are currently discussing) then you have as much to say as someone with 2000+ posts ( and in this case, moreso than some of those members) ...so for that, I say thank you for participating and being a part of the community.

My wife says the same thing. That I am a poor communicator
Not that you are. I don't think she knows you. She doesn't
Hang out here

 

Holy crap, after seeing the numbers I take back the above nonsense.  The difference between the 1532 and the rest is in large part new members just to sell.  Also it has built up over the years as one rarely goes back to an old forum and bails out, no.

so what's to stop a hack from jumping someone else's for sale thread and undersell the full member

they are allowed once they learn the secret handshake and can sing the anthem

Jerry...

you underestimate me.  ;D

How many bogus for sale ads go up over a week/day/whatever?  I guess I don't pay a super amount of attention.  Or maybe I don't recognize them....   [thumbsdown]

Are the for sale ads screened by moderators already?

 I don't think that those who don't bother to vote should be able to nullify my vote for a 50 post minimum.

Theres 70 votes, right now.  If you figure there are about 1500 "active" members, as previously discussed.  That means there has been only 5% participation in this discussion via vote.  5% turnout is pretty bad and a poor indicator of what the "public" wants....food for thought.

I don't even count as part of the 1500, because I'm still barely a member with about 40 posts..... [bang]  I did vote though.

I'm with Spikey on that.  

The opportunity is here to have a say.  You're right though, that so many havn't taken up that opportunity could be interpreted as the whole story generally being regarded as a none issue by the silent majority  :-\.

And/or the fact that some of the more active members don't venture far from certain boards, such as the racing section or their local club boards.

News item added to the header.

good idear!!

I know vBulletin can give users a message something like "The Administrators want you view this thread" type of thing.
Can SMF?

Some self important jerks hate the mandatory read threads but for important issues it's handy :)

As it turns out I have that turned off with the twisty thing anyway ... so wouldn't have seen it without reading this thread [laugh]

With regard to the general apathy ... I agree there are plenty of members that don't venture far from their typical hangouts (myself included). But I suspect there are several reasons for this:

• if people feel time on the board is preferred there is no option to respond
• 'active' members will not be restricted anyway so no need to respond
• why would you want to sell anyway [cheeky]
• most members trust the decision of the Flounders (asking opinions builds trust)

I do sometimes look through the bikes for sale threads ... generally to look at the pretty pictures - or because I am a sadist and enjoy the unpleasant experience of seeing how cheaply bikes change hands in the US. But I have seen frustration about:

• posts that don't get responses ... or prompt responses
• claims that posting photos is too hard
• 'please email me because I don't check the board' type posts
• not updating threads when the bike is sold (particularly elsewhere)

It must be frustrating for people to post an interest/enquiry only to receive no response, wait days or hold off waiting for something that has long since been sold - so I think some restriction is important. Of course if people just flood the classifieds with for sale ads ... they should be sponsoring.

I think the simple answer is that somebody has identified an issue ... there are positives and negatives to both sides ... and the 'community' has not voiced strong/unified opinions one way or the other. So the Flounders should decide what they prefer and just do that ... but I agree that just because few people have voted shouldn't discount the input of those that have.

Oh and I didn't vote [evil]

I lurked here for a long time because I had little to offer, but much to learn.

After graduating from the Elementary to the Secondary stage of my education, I felt as though I could make useful contributions that might interest others while not embarrassing myself.

What that means in terms of number of posts, I'm not sure.

If I have to pick a number to help the cause, I choose 50. Or whatever the number is to achieve Jr. Member standing.

Is there a way to regulate it through time instead of posts? Sorry if this was addressed I didn't read all 8 pages. Maybe the person needs to be a member for 2 months or something before he/she can sell?

No...slacker.  ;D

If that was an option I would have offered it.

I'm not sure.

I'll look into it.

Well, being a guy on this board for a little over two years now, I'm aware I'm a lurker. I have had a long journey to being a monster owner, and have soaked up much valuable knowledge. Like what others have said relative to their similar situation, I don't tend to post too much because I still consider myself a noob on much that has to do with riding a motorcycle. I don't think I even have 25 posts yet, but I think the 50 post idea is a good one. If I ever had something to sell here, I wouldn't want to be viewed as a traveling salesman. Just my 2 cents.

I so enjoy the banter, though...  [beer]

25 posts to sell.

cheaters will out themselves pretty fast i think....

Nobody is going to see that.  Should have used flashing colours and Mel's pom poms to grab people's attention. 

 ;D

Boobies would have worked...

Voted (xx number of posts) before posting in classified (added first post to be introduction to the forum)  25 and 50 seem like a lot though (maybe 5 or 10)

But regardless, I think this forum is great! without this criteria so far, but I always welcome improvement like this.   [Dolph]

I voted to leave it open for now.  If it turns out that we have a LARGE number of traveling salesmen, and it's taking time for the flounders to screen, then I want to change my vote to 25.


If there wasn't some sort of a problem, DP wouldn't have asked the question.  How much a hassle/inconvenience have traveling salesmen caused for the flounders?


...yes, I read all 8 pages-I'm a lurker.

May be a better way is to hide the For sale section to members that have less than 25/50 posts, so they don't know that they will need to post +1s before it appears, and it will be a pleasant surprise when it does show up to new members ;)

But that might draw them to the main board..

There is no easy way  [bang]

Actually, that's a pretty good idea.  What do you think Nate?  The entire Flea Market can be hidden until/unless someone has enough posts to become a Jr of Full member.

I voted 50 +
I know what a pain it's to weed out spammers. I delete about 3 accounts a day.

I'm attracted to that idea too.... not sure if there's an easy technical way to implement it though?

That would reduce the audience that can purchase and IMO would be bad for the members that are part of the community and happen to be selling. It's easy enough to do it that way.

The other way only prevents a new member from starting a thread in a for sale board.
.
To answer an earlier question...it just frosts me when I'm looking through the classifieds and I see a member with say 22 posts and every one of them is in the classifieds.

That isn't what this place is about. It's a community, not an economic opportunity.

He has 21 posts.  :)

You noticed too.  ;)

Yup.  It's these guys who get my ...goat.

Probably should put your goats in a more secure area so the youngins don't hijack them.

Great idea, I'd vote for that  [thumbsup]

Goats have no front teeth.....:o

I'm not against some sort of prerequisite number of posts to buy or sell but I have to say that I recently sold a gas tank to someone with only 2 posts.  That worked for me.   ;)

My proposal would not change that.

Mine would.

I understand that it would.

What I don't understand is why you'd want to limit the audience of participating members.

To avoid the 50x +1s.

But as I said early on, if it were up to me I'd also lock several other board sections up to all but members of a certain level of contribution. 

Reward for input.

Woe be to the people that +1 to reach their count... ;)

I feel that policy is exclusionary and don't re-visit forums that won't allow access to all members. I stopped participating in the NEDOC forum due to that. That's just me.

Limiting thread starting privileges is a middle ground IMO.

While we're at it, I'd also like a minimum number of posts before ppl can create "my bike won't start" threads, and an automatic ban for excess capitalisation in posts.

Oh, and lets move oz monsters so its the forum default page.

Suzyj

I think you're on to something.

I want firm commitments from the regulators of this forum that no one can bad talk the new Monsters.

It's a form a discrimination.

Oh, and a clear definition of what are the fastest colors in descending order so there can be no more debate.

And let's stand up a central court thread to take people who need to be banned for any infraction so that a body of appointed members can hear all the evidence and decide.

....




Then again we could all just be adults and decide things for ourselves

I joined almost a year ago, and honestly, it was mostly for the Parts ads - as I couldn't view them without an account.

I've purchased a set of Arrow high mounts from a member that I was able to view with my low post count.  As well, I helped a member out by sending him a piece for his aftermarket slave that I didn't need and he did.  I didn't ask anything for it, just dropped it in the mail.

Doesn't that make me a part of the community?  I don't really care to post.  I'm not an expert and when I do read some of the experts opinions, even in this thread, that beat up on the opinions of others makes me want to do so even less.  It's just that mentality of having more posts, been here longer, therefore my opinion should carry more weight than yours - noob.  Reminiscent of the Stonecutters - member 15000 go polish my pipes as I, member 1234, drink from this lass of virtue true.

I've seen x amount of posts to count for viewing this section, or to post for sale, or post pics on other forums ... but at the end of the day, scammers are gonna scam.  Didn't think it was that big of an issue here, since many vets here are watching out for who is posting what and sure they are speaking to the mods about questionable items for sale.

I vote for 25, if there is going to be a restriction, but don't take away my ability to see ads because I choose not to post about my breakfast or if I chose boxers or briefs this morning.

Thanks for reading and have a great ride today!

I don't know where everyone keeps getting the idea that DP started this thread to defuse scammers. My understanding (from actually reading his posts in the thread) is he is concerned/annoyed with people that join simply to sell stuff. There are other sites for that.

You haven't sold anything. Thats the issue. The new rule would allow new members to buy all they want, trade all they want, and help out all they want. Just not sell for a bit.


Having more posts/been here longer does carry more weight for me because I have been able to evaluate this persons opinions, expertise, value system, educational level, conflict resolution, and other variables over a longer period of time. I've been interacting with (some) of these guys since 1999. Of course I would give more weight to their opinion then yours. Wouldn't you?

No, I necessarily wouldn't.  In fact, there are some posters here that I simply scroll down when I see their comments in a thread.  I based this on how they have dealt with others in previous subjects.  More than 1 person can have the same answer to the same problem, it's not that unique ... so I move on and read someone else's solution that has the exact same relevance without being condescending.

It's awesome that you have been dealing with some of these guys since 99.  I haven't, and you know I've gotten along just fine not knowing them myself.  I'm sure that the knowledge some of them possess is infinitely vast, but, I am also certain that knowledge came well before Post # 1 on these boards.   Not too many become subject matter experts with no relevant experience prior.   

the other aspect of the number of posts is the time people have.

some people, unlike me, don't waste time posting, they are doing, and some of them doing great Ducati related stuff. Their opinion, in my opinion, IS highly desired.

take the time to look at people's links and profiles and welcome posts. More posts don't me more knowledgeable. I have nearly 10k posts and I'm an idiot compared to people like DuckStew or Brad the Bike Boy. neither of which post a lot, because, well they're too busy working on bikes.

And if the concern is people are joining just to sell? so what. it's not like this place is worried about making numbers for a future sell like the DML? or is it ;)

point is, leave it alone, no one is being hurt, and if they are, let them decide to go somewhere else or not.

if you want to ensure the users that are active are truly active, have people sign in every few months instead of having the option to sign on forever.
you'll see the trend of those who are truly active, lurkers, and who just came onboard to sell one time and leave.

Yay  community!!  I voted for 50 votes min.  I think this is high enough to discourage artificial post inflation.  I have had issues with asking questions about buying an item from someone with a few posts.  No scammers that I know of but poor communication and lengthy response times.  Conversely I have had some awesome experiences dealing with established members. Its just not the same when you are dealing with someone that doesn't care. 

Uh, that's exactly what I said. Giving more or less weight based on your opinions of previous posts. Having more posts over more time just gives you and I more of an opportunity to evaluate and reevaluate our opinions. Having few posts, if any, and you are just another screen name.

I disagree.  Everyone's opinion is valid and sought.  When lurkers lurk without input who`s to know what they think?  Thanks for joining in on the discussion and for voting - a vote of equal validity to any other  [thumbsup]

^^ this.

again, people selling to us first benefits us.

Well...., as it's YOU asking..., perhaps DP can give you three months during high summer when it's nothing but snow in this hemisphere.  8)

I'd be willing to wager $0.05, (which is my largest bet! ;)), that most who do that haven't ridden one and think we own ours as "a matter of taste", without having a clue how differently they handle.  8)

 I've ridden everything. The new ones feel just like the old ones.

And again right back: If selling is their only/primary reason for coming here....  there are other sites dedicated to that.

but then you're competing with all those other people WHO don't have our passion.

I can't tell you how many ebay auctions I lost.

I prefere shopping here

Raux,  I guess we just see this issue differently mate  :)

First thought: cool.

Realisation: they're all wankers down there.


I would suggest that if people are joining to sell ... they are also offering their goods elsewhere anyway.


This is why the argument discussion is largely irrelevant to me ... based on that comment I wouldn't be able to sell anything if I wanted to.

Don't be so entirely self-deprecating.  OzMos are not all wankers.  I'd say no more than most of 'em are  ;D.

I prefer shopping here because people usually list their stuff properly, so you don't have to wonder if it really fits old monsters, newer ones, etc.

Randomly make everyone with more than a year or so on board and reputable posting a mod for tbe for sale boards.

If something is suspect it gets locked or deleted.

Have about 20 of these mods at a time.

Anyone who wants the job is banned.

Anyone who abuses it is banned.

Anyone who has it and doesn't do the job is released from bondage.

With great power comes great responsibility.

and if someone doesn't we correct it.

try that on ebay ;)

thats one of my favorite things about this forum, nothing slips through the cracks.
i've goofed and been corrected, it benefits everyone.

ok sufficiently annoyed by a recent seller with 25 posts (7 of which are in his selling post answering questions we had)

so..

as part of selling

Part name
Part manufacturer (if known)
Part price
Picture of YOUR part, not one you stole from online

that's not too hard

Yup all of the above  [thumbsup]  ......and 50+ posts of prior meaningful input before you get to sell your wares in our flea market.

+1.  The opportunists won't just be taking advantage of our member's flea market, they'll be touting on TOB and elsewhere too as apparently is the fellow that Raux is on about. 

The issue here is simple:  The DMF is - or at least IMO ought be - a community for enthusiasts.  Not just a no-cost trading opportunity (with no connection to the membership other than as well targeted prospects).

Why limit people?
Is this limit just to... limit people? Limits never helped anyone to grow in any aspect.

While all the additional input is 'interesting' [bang]...

let's keep this thread to the topic of requiring a minimum number of posts to start a for sale thread.

I don't like people that are mean to animals.  :D

I just want to say that forum is Great. People are calm and not offensive here. I don't see any need to change anything here.
I red many pages of this topic and never saw simple explanation why sellers should have minimum xx post to sell.


ok I see admin's point
While sale topics in sale subforum it will not interfere with enthusiasts. But forced messages from sellers will interfere negatively.

Then you didn't read all the pages.

If we want to make it about community of enthusiasts then I vote for at least 50 quality posts to sell.  Let the seller decide if they want to sell to someone with less posts.  If that doesn't work for a seller then they always have access to ebay or craigslist.

ooo how about "if you have less than 50 posts you can't even SEE the flea market section"

I could do that.

But that hurts the people that are part of the community that want to sell their items. If you look back in the thread you'll find a post from a member that sold to someone with just 2 posts. That is a good thing for our members.

My intention in asking about this was to stop people from joining just to sell, which I consider the same as spam.

If you look at the poll you'll notice the choices are limited, and if you read my post on this page I asked that the discussion to be limited to the questions posed in the poll.

In true DMF fashion you guys are making this way more complicated than it needs to be.

That's how we roll.

I say fifty or more unless they are selling a treadmill. Or bacon. Or a 140mph 620.

admin?  nah mate, that's no admin.... just the opinion of some wanker from down under  ;D

I actually had the laughy guy after that, because I was laughing as I typed it, but in the process of editing my post so it made sense to people besides hill rats I forgot it. ;)

i was being sarcastic about the 50 post visibility ;)


i stand by my choice

0 limit on posts

full disclosure on items or be deleted.

+1

I suggest reducing the choices in the poll:

        o 0 posts
        o 25 posts
        o full disclosure on items or be deleted
         
Choose no more than two. 

Stick to these choices in discussion.  Whatever Nate's final decision, [Dolph]
         

Browsing the parts for sale section i see we got a little microcosm of a case for having a 25 post rule.


Agree, I think most people tend to be polite and answer any question to the best of their ability. The person mentioned above is the exception to the rule, generally.

I will stand by my original vote of 25 + full disclosure

That guys threads should be deleted not just locked. He is a great example of why this thread is here.

I think....

that if Randall can mature to the point where Stu has a BillisiMoto sponsor sticker on his salty bike, than even the doucheiest noobs in the for sale section might over time become regular, active, decent, and helpfull boardmembers.

That's all I got to say.

Trading parts for ad space is a sign of maturity?

Holy Smokes.... What a doosch.  :o

Now I see what this thread is all about.  >:(

I may have to change my vote, 25 posts clearly isn't enough   ;D

I have personally never delt with him ( I still think of him as a lil snot nosed douche bag), but I figure if Stu has been dealing with him, and I do know Stu,  Randall must have matured somewhat ;)

I just noticed this thread. Don't get over here much, but the header helped.

I wanted to vote for 49 1/2 posts but I reluctantly  voted for 50 instead.


My thought which is slightly unrelated to selling stuff but maybe not entirely, is to deactivate accounts with less than 25 posts that haven't logged in for 9 months or a year or so. If your going to contribute then contribute.



Not that it matters but the reason I joined in the first place  was to buy stuff to get my monster operable. And I've been posting crap on here ever since.  ;D

I think all of this is a clever marketing ploy to get us to check out the flea market!!!   [leo]   [clap]

Posted by: justinrhenry

I think all of this is a clever marketing ploy to get us to check out the flea market!!!   Police   applause

I presume yer joking....



My take is that it's the old buyer beware scenario.  If a noob has parts to sell I'd most likely ignore the post but if really interested I would exercise due caution.

I have seen the situation where a well heeled dude buys a shiny new toy, gets a stack of gear and bling, decides he doesn't really enjoy riding and wants to quit - because he has no " street cred " anywhere he will have trouble attracting a buyer, therefore someone will get bargains when he goes to the obvious places to unload that particular 'bike .

OK, that case might be rare - but so far have there been many scammers trying to sell stuff here ? ?

The point has been made 7 or 8 times that we perhaps we should discourage people from joining the forum just to sell things and then once they've sold their stuff they go on their merry way. This is not Craigslist or E bay, its an online community. Conversation and interaction are encouraged here which is how many members have end up with such high post counts. They have the gift of gab.

I'm all for a combo of membership longevity and post count to be able so sell items.


OR



Give Free BEER


and BooBs [thumbsup]

I think there are some really good ideas and suggestions going on here but, to be honest, I'm still on the fence.

I think the long term, heavy contributors, and/or highly knowledgable members often benefit from letting anyone sell here. It usually results in a good deal for the buyer. Most of us who have been here for a while or that know enough about these bikes know when an item for sale isn't worth more than a look at the thread and will move on. And buying online is always "buyer beware" so there's no getting around that.

So, effectively, the member who joins just to sell "shit" isn't actually selling anything. But, again, if its a good part or good gear at a good price then why not?

That being said, I also understand wanting to cut down on the number of members who post nothing but 'for sale' threads. Like the member that Raux is talking about. If that's the case then I might suggest looking a little harder at the lesser known, low posting members. If all of their previous posts are 'for sale' threads and nothing else then maybe a Mod can send a message, really contribute or get booted.

I think all of the Mods are great dudes (even though I've been the cause of a run-in or two) and you guys have created a great place for us to hang out and I'm sure regulating every thread is quite tiresome. Why not induct another member to the Hall of Mods solely to keep the for sale section in order? I'm sure someone would love to take on that position.

In the end, the Founders can do whatever they want, but I doubt they will be banning anyone simply because they just post on the For Sale section. In a way, they are contributing. If the guy that is selling these items is a douche, but is fair priced and delivers on what he advertises... I expect that if anyone had a bad experience buying from this guy there would be a huge thread about it. We're all big boys and girls here. If you decide to buy anything from some stranger or the web, regardless of how many posts, then you're always taking a risk.

How many more times does it need to be brought up that this isn't about scammers?

Until this thread drops off to Page two evidently.

(https://sphotos-a-ord.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/p480x480/8339_482551395167646_963779519_n.jpg)
This is the DMF...

they can't let facts get in the way. ;D

 Here is a little perspective from another list that I am on.


* Members are permitted one FS notice per week. It can only be posted on Mondays.


"Unlike most other lists, the OldTools charter expressly allows
commercial postings by its members, with the stipulation that the
sellers also participate in the group's discussions. In short, we
don't mind if you sell old tools via the list, so long as you pass on
your expertise with it."

We'll give this a try and see how it works. 

I hope this wasn't directed at me, I don't think my post had anything to do with spammers.


This poll thread is solely supposed to be about new members posting in the For Sale section.

It wasn't directed at you because your post had nothing to do with spammers or scammers.

BTW DP: When is this poll/thread gonna end?

I vote for let anyone post.

After reading this thread (I missed the initial discussion because I was busy...), and checking out the Parts section... I can easily see the annoyance (and I have shared it) with the "join-to-sell" members (particularly one recent member).

I would rather see turds who are using this solely as their "pre-targeted market" get the ban-hammer.

Scenario: member joins, swaps out a few parts and lists the OEM stuff for sale.  Not much to add yet because this member is still getting to know both the forum and the bike (I didn't post much for the first few years because I didn't have anything to say).

The "number of posts" requirement for sales has turned me off of some other forums.

1st or 2nd post is in Parts?  Sure. 

20 posts only in Parts? Why aren't you admitting that you are a vendor and becoming a sponsor?

Considering that many of our sponsors contribute more to the 'community' than just selling parts ... this is a very valid point.

But that only places us back where this whole discussion started.

I don't know.

The results are overwhelmingly in favor of some sort of post requirement to start for sale threads, but I was really hoping to get more participation from the members.

I wouldn't worry so much about the people that refuse to vote.

I don't think it sets the discussion back, this particular incident seems to have stemmed from a relatively small number of our FS posts... which don't really clutter up the forum for very long with the limited lifetime of FS threads (this I DO like!)... and one member in particular who appears to be taking advantage of our policies.

I am in favor of moderators moderating this kind of behavior through less automated processes.  Understanding we are a community and hence the on-topic commentary allowed in FS threads (which seems to drive what looks like more sane pricing than other forums I have frequented).  After reading the commentary in the one thread and the responses it received, I support and endorse banning that kind of arse-first salesmanship.

It is my completely unscientific and inexperienced belief that someone who responds to legitimate questions in a FS thread with hostility and/or defensiveness is the kind of person who will post the minimum number of times with pointless asshattery just to list.  And then the members posts don't get deleted automatically after 90 days.

I'm inclined to agree with hbliam here......

.... but in the face of the massive non-vote for "don't care", I'm also not sure that we - the 104 who voted for some pre-selling post threshold - have any mandate to request change... :-\.

All have had the opportunity to express an opinion here and to vote. 

To date only 136 members have done so.

What that lamentably shows is that to the vast majority of members this is a non-issue. 

Sad but true.
Maybe there can be an addition to the FS section that warns non sponsor vendor/opportunists that they'll get banned rather than a post count. Then it will be up to any members vigilant enough to care to lag 'em in to the mods. Maybe the members should take more responsibility to inform the mods and even direct people to a more appropriate venue. This may be more of a deterrant to those types rather than some random, innocent or naive FS post from a newbie who wouldn't make the post count.
So I'm rethinking it.


As an example: nice work recently on your part (and nice Ali shuffle) ;D. I saw it and went back to deal with it but you beat me to it. Glad you did, because my footwork ain't as good. I think this is an example of what I'm suggesting. If the opportunist doesn't respond positively then lag 'em in to the Inquisitor (DP)  [evil]  [laugh]. Newbies innocently posting in FS dont get discouraged or feel snobbed (we want to grow the cult, I mean forum), but those with more cynical motives get exposed.

If the members love the forum, the members should protect the forum!

Ah shit, I got carried away, but you know what I mean.

Tony... even though I do think I know where you're coming from.....you lost me a little there ^^   ???

1. To sum up, we should go easy on innocent newbies and warn or ban cynical opportunists.

2. Members be vigilant in reporting violations of the rules.

3. A warning about this at the top of the FS section.

I did vote for 50 posts if the mods go that way. I'm just wondering if it might be a bit of a blunt instrument.

I was referring to your excellent intervention in the FS section which was well balanced and a great example of how to do it.

Clearly I got a bit excited (and brain addled after five night shifts) :)

I'll toss my opinion in...


I just now saw this thread and voted for no limit.

We'll say, hypothetically of course, that there is a member who has no interest in contributing to the community here other than offering parts for sale and trying to make money.

I occasionally browse the parts for sale section, just to see if there's anything for sale that I need or want.  Part of my browsing there isn't even about looking for anything to buy, I just enjoy looking at what people are selling.

If someone has something they're looking to sell, I don't want them to be unable to post it for sale here just because they don't have the requisite post count.  It could be something I want, but don't necessarily need and wouldn't start a WTB thread for.

I don't make a habit of window shopping the for sale sections of other forums (mostly because I don't go to other bike forums, because compared to the DMF they're not very good), and I only check ebay for specific parts that I actually need.

So I say let them post their ads.

If they don't post the info you're looking for, back out of their thread and move along to the next one.

Or, alternately, give them a hard time about not posting a thorough description and not being good about answering questions and not posting pictures of their parts.  Personally, I find reading that sort of thing very amusing and get a great deal of pleasure from it.

But don't prevent anyone from posting things they have for sale, because we might miss out on some good stuff.


But that's just my opinion, so feel free to ignore it if your differs.  My vote's in the ballot box.

 [thumbsup]

^^^
All of this

Time limit is an option I looked for, say 1 month.

As informative and amusing as this all is...and while to those that it matters there is a clear preference to require post minimums to sell...

With about 1% participation it's obvious that there is not sufficient support by the membership as a whole to make those changes at this time.

So continue to treat these one hit wonders as you always have, or at least keep the admonitions civil should you decide to tool on someone. ;D

There have been some good suggestions regarding other requirements like location, price, etc. and I will be adding those requirements to the sticky in each for sale board.

Thanks to everyone that participated.