Im researching tactical shotguns. I think a SS Marine 870 with pistol grip would be ideal but larger $$s than a pistol gripped 870 Express.
Can anyone give me a reason why I should go folding stock over the compact pistol grip? Any suggestions for light mounts? Mag tube extenders?
Thx
I just about picked up a 870 Tac-3 yesterday, but put some hold money on a Bushmaster AR instead. I do know I'm not a fan of the folding stock, just personal taste.
Definitely going to pick up an 870 this summer though.
Can't tell ya much on add ons though.
When we goin shootin??? ;D
Marine Magnum because i ran that sucker over with a car and continued to shoot it, never cleaned it once and still racks smooth as a baby bottom.
totally not trying to start anything, just very curious......... and assuming folks are not LEO or military
what does one actually do with a tactical shotgun???
Quote from: herm on June 15, 2008, 07:35:03 PM
totally not trying to start anything, just very curious......... and assuming folks are not LEO or military
what does one actually do with a tactical shotgun???
Welp.....this may be way out of whack here....but I'd guess you'd shoot it..... ;)
Maybe something like this.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=lOJ0oBNSxPQ (http://youtube.com/watch?v=lOJ0oBNSxPQ)
Quote from: herm on June 15, 2008, 07:35:03 PM
totally not trying to start anything, just very curious......... and assuming folks are not LEO or military
what does one actually do with a tactical shotgun???
Personally, I'd like one for home defense. Seems a lot more useful than the .357 I currently have. I don't hunt so I'd rather have a tactical one than a regular one. I don't pretend to think I wouldn't be nervous if I ever needed to use it in self defense. As such, I'd rather have a shotgun than a pistol...harder to miss. [thumbsup] I sincerely hope I'd never have to use it though.
Quote from: someguy on June 15, 2008, 08:24:42 PM
Welp.....this may be way out of whack here....but I'd guess you'd shoot it..... ;)
ha ha..........you funny guy [clap]
Quote from: Triple J on June 15, 2008, 09:54:13 PM
Personally, I'd like one for home defense. Seems a lot more useful than the .357 I currently have. I don't hunt so I'd rather have a tactical one than a regular one. I don't pretend to think I wouldn't be nervous if I ever needed to use it in self defense. As such, I'd rather have a shotgun than a pistol...harder to miss. [thumbsup] I sincerely hope I'd never have to use it though.
fair enough......... thanks
Need tactical, or just short barrel?
I've handled this one, but not fired it. Fit and finish seems excellent!
Escort MarineGuard, 18" barrel, 5 shot mag, nickel plated (but comes in other finishes as well)
(http://legacysports.com/images/_products/ESC_MarineGuard.jpg)
so-called "tactical" shotguns are silly imho. the main reason doughnut-loaded LEOs use them is for intimidation, not for useful functionality.
take a look at the s/gs that the USMC use. those are REAL tactical shotguns. simple function, indestructible, and just as lethal as anything with a flashlight,ghost ring sights,adjustable butt and so on.
it's a scatter gun. all you need is a good action and a cylinder choke and shoot.
that being said, i like the rem 870 magnums. use a regular stock. if you can afford it or can deal with it, get a 12 or 14 in barrel (NFA tax is $5 since its an AOW, but you have to do the paperwork and many FFLs charge extra for dealing with it). the short barrel makes it a true tactical gun since it is FAR more useable. a 12 ga with a 14" barrel has an amazing spread at 10-15 ft compared to the same barrel in 18" (min legal w/o NFA taxes)
if you need info on doing the NFA stuff, drop me a PM and i'll point you. most states permit it if you can pass the fbi checks.
The Wilson Combat sitting in the display case at the range is sweet - has a ported barrel to help with recoil, and a ton of other goodies.
I'd also look into Benelli's if I felt like spending a lot of money (the Wilson is not cheap either with an MSRP of $1600).
Get some Flechette rounds for fun and jungle foliage work...
Quote from: ato memphis on June 16, 2008, 05:55:32 AM
Get some Flechette rounds for fun and jungle foliage work...
that has got to be a euphemism for somthing...
Quote from: ROBsS4R on June 15, 2008, 08:31:21 PM
Maybe something like this.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=lOJ0oBNSxPQ (http://youtube.com/watch?v=lOJ0oBNSxPQ)
Rob are you in that?
USMC shotguns:
M1014 (semi/pump) AKA the Benelli M4 Super 90
(http://www.usmcweapons.com/articles/M1014/benelli_m4_1.jpg)
Remington 870 (called the M870 MCS - modular combat shotgun)
(http://www.defensereview.com/1_31_2004/rem870mcs_18.jpg)
Mossberg 590
(http://www.gunsandammomag.com/long_guns/GAmossberg_033007C.jpg)
(http://www.gunsandammomag.com/long_guns/GAmossberg_033007B.jpg)
From my information, the Corps allows Marines to modify the 870 and 590 with non-issue stocks and features, so you see a variety of configurations of them (i.e. pistol grips vs regular stock and rail type accessories). Most of the 870s are actually old guns refitted with various features. I believe the entire stock of 870s was upgraded to magnum receivers in the 80s mainly to take advantage of the stronger receiver, not to use 3.25" shells. All s/gs are fitted with maximum-capacity magazines and none have wood stocks to my knowledge.
Quote from: Gearhead_42 on June 16, 2008, 04:49:51 AM
Need tactical, or just short barrel?
Probably just short barrel actually, in relation to my previous response.
Quote from: Triple J on June 16, 2008, 08:46:53 AM
Probably just short barrel actually, in relation to my previous response.
14" short enough? AOW paperwork is a pain. $5 for the tax and another $300 for the transfer fee from my FFL.
(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l309/ducatiz/DML/101_0103.jpg)
Quote from: ducatizzzz on June 16, 2008, 09:10:50 AM
14" short enough? AOW paperwork is a pain. $5 for the tax and another $300 for the transfer fee from my FFL.
(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l309/ducatiz/DML/101_0103.jpg)
Me Likey!
Kicking myself for not buying a wind up street sweeper 10 years ago. That would have been a cool addition to the collection.
Quote from: rgramjet on June 16, 2008, 09:16:29 AM
Me Likey!
Kicking myself for not buying a wind up street sweeper 10 years ago. That would have been a cool addition to the collection.
and a big make the beast with two backsing pain when the ATF reclassified them as DD's.
i've fired one and was unimpressed. they take too long to load, firing is awkward. give me a pumper anyday over a street sweeper.
Maybe a Pancor instead, but they don't exist except in video games now.
Quote from: ducatizzzz on June 16, 2008, 05:12:42 AM
so-called "tactical" shotguns are silly imho. the main reason doughnut-loaded LEOs use them is for intimidation, not for useful functionality.
take a look at the s/gs that the USMC use. those are REAL tactical shotguns. simple function, indestructible, and just as lethal as anything with a flashlight,ghost ring sights,adjustable butt and so on.
Quote from: ducatizzzz on June 16, 2008, 07:27:39 AM
USMC shotguns:
M1014 (semi/pump) AKA the Benelli M4 Super 90
(http://www.usmcweapons.com/articles/M1014/benelli_m4_1.jpg)
Remington 870 (called the M870 MCS - modular combat shotgun)
(http://www.defensereview.com/1_31_2004/rem870mcs_18.jpg)
Mossberg 590
(http://www.gunsandammomag.com/long_guns/GAmossberg_033007C.jpg)
(http://www.gunsandammomag.com/long_guns/GAmossberg_033007B.jpg)
From my information, the Corps allows Marines to modify the 870 and 590 with non-issue stocks and features, so you see a variety of configurations of them (i.e. pistol grips vs regular stock and rail type accessories).
These two posts seem contradictory.
Good point, bob. I re-read both and I think that what is billed as "tactical" to the civilian isn't necessarily what is used by warfighters. That may have been 'tizz's point.
Quote from: silentbob on June 16, 2008, 10:14:18 AM
i should have posted some of the LEO type tactical s/gs. they just have more shit on them that i don't think is generally useful except for scare stuff (i.e. the flashlight which is for blinding ppl) esp for non-LEOs
(http://www.lesjones.com/www/images/posts/14_inch_gun.gif)
Quote from: ROBsS4R on June 15, 2008, 08:31:21 PM
Maybe something like this.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=lOJ0oBNSxPQ (http://youtube.com/watch?v=lOJ0oBNSxPQ)
That dude sux...... poor training
Quote from: ducatizzzz on June 16, 2008, 09:10:50 AM
14" short enough? AOW paperwork is a pain. $5 for the tax and another $300 for the transfer fee from my FFL.
(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l309/ducatiz/DML/101_0103.jpg)
That would seem to be very effective in home defense. What is AOW paperwork? I actually don't even know if you can buy short barrel shotguns easily. ??? Sinister would probably know what we can and can't do here. Just seems they'd be a great weapon for what I'm looking for.
I've had hunting rifles since I was a kid, and I've had my handgun for a few years (bought it from a friend back in NV)...but I know very little about guns...other than how to shoot them safely. ;)
Quote from: Triple J on June 16, 2008, 01:19:24 PM
That would seem to be very effective in home defense. What is AOW paperwork? I actually don't even know if you can buy short barrel shotguns easily. ??? Sinister would probably know what we can and can't do here. Just seems they'd be a great weapon for what I'm looking for.
I've had hunting rifles since I was a kid, and I've had my handgun for a few years (bought it from a friend back in NV)...but I know very little about guns...other than how to shoot them safely. ;)
Any Other Weapon. If you want a shotgun with a barrel under 18" it is classified as an AOW.
Quote from: ducatizzzz on June 16, 2008, 10:55:37 AM
i should have posted some of the LEO type tactical s/gs. they just have more shit on them that i don't think is generally useful except for scare stuff (i.e. the flashlight which is for blinding ppl) esp for non-LEOs
(http://www.lesjones.com/www/images/posts/14_inch_gun.gif)
At first glance I thought that was a tactical two barrel rifle simiar to a 3 barrel Drilling! How cool would that be?
Quote from: ducatizzzz on June 16, 2008, 10:55:37 AM
i should have posted some of the LEO type tactical s/gs. they just have more shit on them that i don't think is generally useful except for scare stuff (i.e. the flashlight which is for blinding ppl) esp for non-LEOs
(http://www.lesjones.com/www/images/posts/14_inch_gun.gif)
Quoteflashlight,ghost ring sights,adjustable butt and so on.
But the USMC guns posted above have ghost ring sights, adjustable butt stocks, scope rails, pistol grips, etc.
The only thing they don't have is the flash light, which is probably the only option that would be useful on a home defense shotgun.
Quote from: Triple J on June 16, 2008, 01:19:24 PM
That would seem to be very effective in home defense. What is AOW paperwork? I actually don't even know if you can buy short barrel shotguns easily. ??? Sinister would probably know what we can and can't do here. Just seems they'd be a great weapon for what I'm looking for.
AOW paperwork, like FFL paperwork for fully automatic weapons, are a Federal deal. I do know of any WA State laws prohibiting ownership of such weapons.
Quote from: Sinister on June 16, 2008, 01:35:29 PM
AOW paperwork, like FFL paperwork for fully automatic weapons, are a Federal deal. I do know of any WA State laws prohibiting ownership of such weapons.
Gotcha. No thanks. A co-worker went through the process to own full auto weapons when I worked back in Reno. Seemed like it was a royal PIA, not to mention expensive. He got approved though and ended up with some pretty cool weapons, an uzzi and M-16 if I remember correctly. At the time he wasn't even a citizen...he had just had a green card for ~20 years. His citizenship was in Norway, and he would have had to give it up to get US citizenship...which he has since done. I just thought it was interesting they allowed an "alien" to own full auto weapons.
This was all pre 9/11 (1999) though...not sure if the process is any more difficult now.
Quote from: silentbob on June 16, 2008, 01:33:12 PM
only the M1014 has an adjustable stock and the MCS recently got rails. the ghostie sights are only on the sample M870
the stuff I am referring to are :
- muzzle entry device
- flashlight/slide device
point is, with a shotgun, there is limited use for an LEO -- they are for room clearing, which is not useful for most situations where innocent ppl will get hurt, which is 90% of LE actions.
the most compelling photo I posted is of the Mossy 590 -- notice it has nothing but ramp sights and a full-capacity magazine --that's what the marine is using, since the rest of the "features" are crap that will break or fall off.
it's a shotgun.
point. click. boom.. ouch.
Quote from: ducatizzzz on June 16, 2008, 10:55:37 AM
i should have posted some of the LEO type tactical s/gs. they just have more shit on them that i don't think is generally useful except for scare stuff (i.e. the flashlight which is for blinding ppl) esp for non-LEOs
(http://www.lesjones.com/www/images/posts/14_inch_gun.gif)
what gun is that?
Quote from: ducducgooseme on June 16, 2008, 04:26:52 PM
what gun is that?
one of Les Jones' custom jobs.
here is another one:
(http://www.lesjones.com/www/images/posts/1740-porch.jpg)
You know, I was wondering if there was a double-barrel pump action. I was designing one in my head thinking it hadn't been done before. :P
Quote from: rgramjet on June 15, 2008, 02:38:59 PM
Im researching tactical shotguns. I think a SS Marine 870 with pistol grip would be ideal but larger $$s than a pistol gripped 870 Express.
Can anyone give me a reason why I should go folding stock over the compact pistol grip? Any suggestions for light mounts? Mag tube extenders?
Thx
Get the marine. the express might be cheaper but for a reason. Cheaper internals are not something I'm a big fan of (including plastic guns in general like the 870, M500, glocks, xds, etc). In my experience I've had an easier time firing shotguns with pistol grips. With that said, there are pistol grip/folding stocks. Also, if you get the marine 870 it comes with an extended magazine. Extending it further is not possible.
Light mounts, Tac Light is probably the way to.
Anyway, I personally think these "tactical" weapon builds are pretty silly. The practical use of all these things are zilch in your average home, unless you live on Grape Street in Compton or something. It's all just hype to get people to buy guns because they look cooler to the younger crowd. I mean, the chances of you getting into a firefight in which you need to expend all 7+1 rounds of 00 buckshot in your home is pretty damn slim. On top of that, have you ever fired a gun in a house before? My GP100 .357 magnum rings my ears at the range, a 12ga in a house with no ear protection will QUICKLY send the other person running and have you not wanting to shoot just as fast as he turns tail.
With that out of the way, I am a bigger fan of walnut stock side-by-sides and over-unders. They're just timeless guns that go boom. A gun you can really pass down to your kids and grand kids. Whereas passing along an 870 is like telling your kid he's inheriting your honda civic. At any rate, I'm done with my spiel. Let me know if you need any help, I'm a pretty big enthusiast.
+1 ducatizzz and hyphen
tactical shotgun concept is flawed and basically unnecessary. If you want a shotgun for home defense you have to ask yourself why. Are you a really bad shot? Do you wear glasses and worry about waking up with un-corrected vision? Do you think the intimidation factor is a plus? (Might seem that way but I have found when you point a gun...any gun, at someone you are working from the position of strength....shotgun, .45, .38...the other guy always thinks "shit, I'm dead"...in the real world).
But let's just say you are going to get a shotgun. I have cheaper option that will do the job for a 1/2 the cost and look nice doing it. Get a coach gun. These guns have been revived by the SASS (cowboy action shooting) crowd. They are typically double barreled with short 20 inch barrels and nice looking wood finishes. They are good little guns with barrels short enough for indoor work and you can pick up a good used example for $200. Stoeger makes a perfectly fine one that retails for under $400 new with a lovely walnut stock. I own a Stoeger dbl barrel 20 gauge hunting gun and while it is no Berretta it has proven to be reliable and affordable.
You may think you need more than two shots. I say no. I instruct tactical handgun technique for beginners through advanced LEO breech teams. In the real world if you wake up in the middle of the night and let go of two 12 gauge rounds indoors at a target 8-15 feet away and they take cover and return fire...your shooting at the cops or other trained professionals and you are probably dead already. I would venture to say 100% of intruders will flee from your first barrel. Don't brandish or communicate..... identify your target, aim and fire.
I know the Stoeger is not the same quality as the Rem. Marine but are you gonna get it wet? Really? Do you really need the extra shots? Really? Think through your home defense scenario and consider what you need to get the job done. I think a coach gun is great affordable fit...if you really must have a shotgun. Which would not be my first choice.
Ive got a Stevens side by side, was my father in laws rabbit gun. Ive also got an 870 SPS with a rifled 18" slug barrel and cantilevered scope mount. Maybe in my OP I was thinking "tactical" but the wee shotgun that Izzzz posted leans more toward what I like. Rear pistol grip, short barreled, minimalist thunder stick. I would probably put a "laser" on it because I dig "lasers".
I personally use the 870 with the Speed Feed IV stock (pistol grip w/short shoulder stock). It will be more accurate than the just the pistol grip which you will need to aim from the hip for CQC (close quarter combat).
If you have the option, go for a pistol as well. My trusty HK USP CT 45 is always near me.
haha, i like the zombie attack scenario, then you definitely need a tactical shotgun no doublt about it with a 20 round or more mag, afterall those zombies just keep coming, at least they do in all the movies. [laugh]
Quote from: raulduke on June 17, 2008, 09:01:30 AM
+1 ducatizzz and hyphen
~~~
But let's just say you are going to get a shotgun. I have cheaper option that will do the job for a 1/2 the cost and look nice doing it. Get a coach gun. These guns have been revived by the SASS (cowboy action shooting) crowd. They are typically double barreled with short 20 inch barrels and nice looking wood finishes. They are good little guns with barrels short enough for indoor work and you can pick up a good used example for $200. Stoeger makes a perfectly fine one that retails for under $400 new with a lovely walnut stock. I own a Stoeger dbl barrel 20 gauge hunting gun and while it is no Berretta it has proven to be reliable and affordable.
I have a Stoeger 12 ga coach gun -- before they were owned by Benelli. I love it. I would never part with it.
Intimidation? Give me a break. ANYTHING with a muzzle pointed at them is going to intimidate, really, that's why I think the tactical craze is just a fashion statement.
I like short barreled shotguns a lot, and if I could get one of those coach guns with a 12 or 14" barrel, I would. Report would be awesome, not to mention the flashball out the muzzle. That's why I got the Witness 870 (my SBS). It is ultra portable and fits perfectly for me.
Of course, I am one of those tin-foil hat weirdos who thinks you should have a secret mount for one in your car/truck and a case or two of shells for SHTF.
The coach gun is an excellent suggestion. I am sure more creeps have been scared off or intimidated by a coach gun (in US history) than any othe kind of shotgun. Plenty of dads sat on the porch with one, in "days of yore..."
Quote from: Triple J on June 16, 2008, 03:11:19 PM
Gotcha. No thanks. A co-worker went through the process to own full auto weapons when I worked back in Reno. Seemed like it was a royal PIA, not to mention expensive. He got approved though and ended up with some pretty cool weapons, an uzzi and M-16 if I remember correctly. At the time he wasn't even a citizen...he had just had a green card for ~20 years. His citizenship was in Norway, and he would have had to give it up to get US citizenship...which he has since done. I just thought it was interesting they allowed an "alien" to own full auto weapons.
This was all pre 9/11 (1999) though...not sure if the process is any more difficult now.
Green card = permanent legal resident. Same as a citizen except for voting and a few other things, but they can buy and sell firearms just as anyone else. They do not have a 2nd Amendment right, which is reserved for citizens (some rights reserved for only citizens, re
Ex parte Quirin )
Quote from: ducatizzzz on June 17, 2008, 11:08:23 AM
Green card = permanent legal resident. Same as a citizen except for voting and a few other things, but they can buy and sell firearms just as anyone else. They do not have a 2nd Amendment right, which is reserved for citizens (some rights reserved for only citizens, re Ex parte Quirin )
and when they turn into zombies they'll come for you just the same as any other hungry undead.
I'll go Devil's Advocate on the pistola as primary... I've got kids. It is both more conceptually and physically difficult for them to accidentally utilize a shotgun. Sliding rounds in the tube properly versus popping in a clip can be done but it's just not as easy. A shotgun is longer, heavier and once in hand not nearly as fun as it looks on tv when compared to a pistol which can be waved in large circles over one's head while simultaneously yelling "This is a robbery! Move and I'll kill every last one of you motha- F<bleeeeeep>ers!" A pistol may be designed more as a man stopper but for the purpose of home defense it can be a far greater risk to those it is intended to protect.
Additionally- those unnecessary add ons (lights/lasers) are just as useful for intimidation and non-lethal damage. These are far less weildy on a pistol. And though Dirty Harry was skilled at pistol whipping bad guys for fun and a salary I don't think the average Joe could conk a crook in hand-to-hand nearly as well as he/she could by charging with a long barrel or upending a shot gun and coming down 'crack-a-lacka' with a tactical entry butt stock.
Don't get me wrong- I've got pistols too but I expect my wife to grab one and to be gathering the kids to arm them with those easy to wield weapons while I go after the criminals/zombies with a blind, bluff, blast and beat down approach.
:)
Quote from: c_rex on June 18, 2008, 08:38:56 PM
I'll go Devil's Advocate on the pistola as primary... I've got kids. It is both more conceptually and physically difficult for them to accidentally utilize a shotgun. Sliding rounds in the tube properly versus popping in a clip can be done but it's just not as easy. A shotgun is longer, heavier and once in hand not nearly as fun as it looks on tv when compared to a pistol which can be waved in large circles over one's head while simultaneously yelling "This is a robbery! Move and I'll kill every last one of you motha- F<bleeeeeep>ers!" A pistol may be designed more as a man stopper but for the purpose of home defense it can be a far greater risk to those it is intended to protect.
Additionally- those unnecessary add ons (lights/lasers) are just as useful for intimidation and non-lethal damage. These are far less weildy on a pistol. And though Dirty Harry was skilled at pistol whipping bad guys for fun and a salary I don't think the average Joe could conk a crook in hand-to-hand nearly as well as he/she could by charging with a long barrel or upending a shot gun and coming down 'crack-a-lacka' with a tactical entry butt stock. :)
I agree that a pistol isn't the best primary for home defense (compared with a shotgun). They require more training to use accurately, and most pistol rounds will penetrate a typical wall in a home.
A shotgun like a Coach Gun is good because it is simplistic to operate and reload. The downside is that you have to keep it chambered to remain usable (which means cocked if you have internal pins -- external hammer type can be uncocked but i don't like those).
Most "tactical" stocks are lightweight and not designed for good physical use, including the common buttpad which is medium-soft rubber. An old fashioned wood stock is needed for "cracka lacka"
Quote from: silentbob on June 18, 2008, 10:24:17 PM
I
that's hilarious
So last night, everyone is asleep. It's around 11 pm and I am up reading for work (in the kitchen).
I hear a BAM BAM BAM BAM on the door. It isn't a knock, it's a demand. I look around the corner -- our doors have glass in the top and I can see out -- no one is there.
I keep a Mossberg "jungle gun" in the pantry. Ammo is on the top shelf. I chamber it quickly and go to the door, looking out. I see a dark large Suburban (I think) sitting in the street in front of our house. I open the door and put the muzzle out first, checking the sides of the porch and then I step out with the shotgun shouldered. Can't see the back of the Sub as it's too dark ( no street lights )..
At this point, the Sub lays rubber and turns and speeds off. I sighted the back of the truck and gave firing half a second of thought. Nope. Fleeing. Too much distance for solid accuracy. etc.
I think the individual was pulling a prank and shat themselves when I came out.
I called the police, they showed up 10 minutes later. We did a walk around to make sure no vandalism or attempted break-in.
The garage light was on, but the motion light on the driveway wasn't set off. Popo think it may have either been a prank or a weird way of someone picking up a friend.
Either way, I doubt they will be back. I'll be looking at all the dark Suburbans nearby.
Quote from: ducatizzzz on June 16, 2008, 05:12:42 AM
so-called "tactical" shotguns are silly imho. the main reason doughnut-loaded LEOs use them is for intimidation, not for useful functionality.
take a look at the s/gs that the USMC use. those are REAL tactical shotguns. simple function, indestructible, and just as lethal as anything with a flashlight,ghost ring sights,adjustable butt and so on.
Well I've shot our old shotguns and are new "tactical" shotguns with the flashlights, ghost ring sights, and pistol grips back to back. The new ones with the ghost rings were quicker and easier to put on target. This transalated to being more accurate while being rushed (which we normally are) and thus safer IMO for any innocent citizens involved. The flashlight, funny enough, is very useful when it gets dark. :) True that they are intimidating which is why they rarely get fired.
Quote from: ducatizzzz on June 16, 2008, 04:11:28 PM
point is, with a shotgun, there is limited use for an LEO -- they are for room clearing, which is not useful for most situations where innocent ppl will get hurt, which is 90% of LE actions.
Actually we use MP5's or AR15's (and our sidearms) for room clearing. We primarily use the shotguns for felony car stops. SWAT also uses them to cut down doors.
I'd rather have a shotgun for room clearing, but then again, I am just an accountant.
Quote from: hbliam on June 19, 2008, 10:37:13 AM
Well I've shot our old shotguns and are new "tactical" shotguns with the flashlights, ghost ring sights, and pistol grips back to back. The new ones with the ghost rings were quicker and easier to put on target. This transalated to being more accurate while being rushed (which we normally are) and thus safer IMO for any innocent citizens involved. The flashlight, funny enough, is very useful when it gets dark. :) True that they are intimidating which is why they rarely get fired.
Actually we use MP5's or AR15's (and our sidearms) for room clearing. We primarily use the shotguns for felony car stops. SWAT also uses them to cut down doors.
Depends on jurisdiction. Not many places use the MP5. SBS's are still more popular esp since MP5 will penetrate a wall.
Quote from: cyrus buelton on June 19, 2008, 10:42:18 AM
I'd rather have a shotgun when I'm cowering in the corner, screaming like Britney Spears on acid.
Good luck finding your average beat cop here carrying an mp5 or ar in their squad car, let alone clearing houses. That's SWAT's job as far as I know.
The average beat cop has an 870 with an extended magazine. No folding stocks, uber elite taclight, bandoliers or anything of that sort. Again, the whole "tactical" builds are for show unless you're spec ops or a swat, which is where it's even remotely needed. Even then it's overkill. My friend's uncle is retired lapd swat and he said that in his 10 years of being on the swat team he hadn't been in a single fire fight. Mind you, he worked in and around Rampart district for several of those years. They have all that excessive munitions because they have the same ideology as the US Marines, to use overwhelming force and to have more guns, more ammo and more scary stuff than the bad guys.
You don't need a tactical light, speed feed stock, pistol grip, bandolier and rail mounted scope to overwhelm your average robber. It's all for looks. Well, the light may come in handy, but all those extras are practically useless. And like someone said earlier, if 2 shots from a 12 gauge doesn't send the guy running then you have some sort of professional on your hands and you're as good as dead anyway.
Quote from: ducatizzzz on June 19, 2008, 10:42:42 AM
Depends on jurisdiction. Not many places use the MP5. SBS's are still more popular esp since MP5 will penetrate a wall.
True that it depends on jurisdiction. In So Cal rooms are cleared by patrol with sidearms, MP5's or Ar15's mostly. Maybe one guy will bring in a shotgun.
If it's a SWAT call out it's MP5's and AR's and again, one guy with a shotgun.
Quote from: hyphen on June 19, 2008, 11:24:49 AM
You don't need a tactical light, speed feed stock, pistol grip, bandolier and rail mounted scope to overwhelm your average robber. It's all for looks. Well, the light may come in handy, but all those extras are practically useless.
I also dont "need" Carbon Fiber anything (did I just say that out loud???), billet, or even a motorcycle.......but I likes 'em! Just like I like my "Lasers". ;D
Quote from: hyphen on June 19, 2008, 11:24:49 AM
Good luck finding your average beat cop here carrying an mp5 or ar in their squad car, let alone clearing houses. That's SWAT's job as far as I know.
Well there you go. :P
SWAT comes out on barricaded suspects and the like. For every barricaded suspect call there are 100 homes, business's, etc to clear. The average LA County beat cop has access to either an MP5, AR15, and a shotgun. Call a sergeant and you get a tactical blanket, beanbag shotgun, 40mm launcher, etc.
True that there are few firefights if you tabulated all the police encounters on any given day. Keep in mind though that patrol gets in more firefights then SWAT.
QuoteYou don't need a tactical light, speed feed stock, pistol grip, bandolier and rail mounted scope to overwhelm your average robber. It's all for looks. Well, the light may come in handy, but all those extras are practically useless. And like someone said earlier, if 2 shots from a 12 gauge doesn't send the guy running then you have some sort of professional on your hands and you're as good as dead anyway.
You are absolutely right. You don't need most gizmos for the average thug. The baton, which has been in use since the caveman works wonders and is as low tech as you can get.
My point is...the new tactical shotguns with the ghost rings sights, tac lights, and pistol grips are easier to use well, then the tried and true stock 870.
Quote from: hbliam on June 19, 2008, 12:59:41 PM
True that it depends on jurisdiction. In So Cal rooms are cleared by patrol with sidearms, MP5's or Ar15's mostly. Maybe one guy will bring in a shotgun.
If it's a SWAT call out it's MP5's and AR's and again, one guy with a shotgun.
No offense to you or Mario, but the average beat cop clearing a room scares me.
Quote from: cyrus buelton on June 19, 2008, 01:12:29 PM
No offense to you or Mario, but the average beat cop clearing a room scares me.
If you had any idea of how much training they give us (in CA) on clearing rooms you wouldn't be "as" scared.
Quote from: hbliam on June 19, 2008, 01:13:42 PM
If you had any idea of how much training they give us (in CA) on clearing rooms you wouldn't be "as" scared.
That's fine, but I don't live in California.
I am speaking from experience where I live; CA will never be a place I reside in.
Quote from: hbliam on June 19, 2008, 01:13:42 PM
If you had any idea of how much training they give us (in CA) on clearing rooms you wouldn't be "as" scared.
Yeah, he would. He would just find something else to be scared about.
Quote from: cyrus buelton on June 19, 2008, 01:15:38 PM
That's fine, but I don't live in California.
I am speaking from experience where I live; CA will never be a place I reside in.
I watch COPS too. We actually use it in training for what NOT to do most of the time. Like the Texas method of rushing up to the car after a pursuit....but that's for another thread.
Another thing I like about having an MP5 in the car...the mags make a good armrest.
Quote from: hbliam on June 19, 2008, 01:20:21 PM
I watch COPS too. We actually use it in training for what NOT to do most of the time. Like the Texas method of rushing up to the car after a pursuit....but that's for another thread.
Another thing I like about having an MP5 in the car...the mags make a good armrest.
I haven't watched cops in about 10 years.
Of course, California has the best every thing, I forgot that.
I'll bow out of this thread as it is off topic.
Quote from: hbliam on June 19, 2008, 01:13:42 PM
If you had any idea of how much training they give us (in CA) on clearing rooms you wouldn't be "as" scared.
well considering Heather Fong can't even get off her bony ass and spend some time at the range, i don't feel so secure... shouldn't be carrying a sidearm without regular range time.
Quote from: cyrus buelton on June 19, 2008, 01:29:47 PM
I'll bow out of this thread as it is off topic.
Funny, that's usually when you get rolling.
Quote from: Sinister on June 19, 2008, 01:31:42 PM
Funny, that's usually when you get rolling.
Very true, but this topic will further piss me off and I'll get a suspension and/or banning.
Quote from: ducatizzzz on June 19, 2008, 01:31:24 PM
well considering Heather Fong can't even get off her bony ass and spend some time at the range, i don't feel so secure... shouldn't be carrying a sidearm without regular range time.
Thought we were talking about beat cops? :)
Quote from: hbliam on June 19, 2008, 01:34:08 PM
Thought we were talking about beat cops? :)
nope, we were talking about tactical shotguns and you had to come in with all that kraut subgun crap
Quote from: ducatizzzz on June 19, 2008, 01:37:16 PM
nope, we were talking about tactical shotguns and you had to come in with all that kraut subgun crap
LOL. Just pointing out that we rarely use shotguns to clear rooms. I like 'em though. I'm thinking of picking up a Wilson to go with my WC 1911.
Quote from: cyrus buelton on June 19, 2008, 01:33:12 PM
Very true, but this topic will further piss me off and I'll get a suspension and/or banning.
You usually do that when you are on the losing side of an argument/thread. buh bye
Quote from: Sinister on June 19, 2008, 02:05:17 PM
You usually do that when you are on the losing side of an argument/thread. buh bye
I didn't realize there was an argument going on with an actually winner.
It is a matter of opinion on the topic.
Quote from: hbliam on June 19, 2008, 01:11:35 PM
Well there you go. :P
SWAT comes out on barricaded suspects and the like. For every barricaded suspect call there are 100 homes, business's, etc to clear. The average LA County beat cop has access to either an MP5, AR15, and a shotgun. Call a sergeant and you get a tactical blanket, beanbag shotgun, 40mm launcher, etc.
True that there are few firefights if you tabulated all the police encounters on any given day. Keep in mind though that patrol gets in more firefights then SWAT.
You are absolutely right. You don't need most gizmos for the average thug. The baton, which has been in use since the caveman works wonders and is as low tech as you can get.
My point is...the new tactical shotguns with the ghost rings sights, tac lights, and pistol grips are easier to use well, then the tried and true stock 870.
actually, i take what i said back. i forgot that lapd ramped up after the north hollywood incident.
Quote from: cyrus buelton on June 19, 2008, 10:42:18 AM
I'd rather have a shotgun for room clearing, but then again, I am just an accountant.
fully automatic stapler my man... FASB approved! [laugh]
I don't miss that line of work- not one little bit (no offense). I just wasn't cut out for it.
Quote from: c_rex on June 19, 2008, 02:47:17 PM
fully automatic stapler my man... FASB approved! [laugh]
I don't miss that line of work- not one little bit (no offense). I just wasn't cut out for it.
I have a FASB and a GAAP approved
bwaaaaaaaaa
Quote from: cyrus buelton on June 19, 2008, 02:51:17 PM
I have a FASB and a GAAP approved
bwaaaaaaaaa
Now you need holsters on each hip!!! You'll be like the Clint Eastwood of Accounting. [laugh]
Quote from: cyrus buelton on June 19, 2008, 02:51:17 PM
I have a FASB and a GAAP approved
bwaaaaaaaaa
Do you have a GAAS badge?
Quote from: hbliam on June 19, 2008, 01:45:03 PM
LOL. Just pointing out that we rarely use shotguns to clear rooms. I like 'em though. I'm thinking of picking up a Wilson to go with my WC 1911.
this is the only gun LAPD should be allowed:
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/2507254.html
Quote from: ducatizzzz on June 19, 2008, 06:31:04 PM
this is the only gun LAPD should be allowed:
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/2507254.html
[laugh] [laugh] [laugh]
Quote from: hbliam on June 19, 2008, 12:59:41 PM
True that it depends on jurisdiction. In So Cal rooms are cleared by patrol with sidearms, MP5's or Ar15's mostly. Maybe one guy will bring in a shotgun.
If it's a SWAT call out it's MP5's and AR's and again, one guy with a shotgun.
What department in "So Cal" are you talking about?
LAPD?
Quote from: cyrus buelton on June 19, 2008, 07:01:43 PM
What department in "So Cal" are you talking about?
LAPD?
I could start a long list but what for? We carry full auto MP5's in all of our units, CHP has AR's in all of theirs. I have friends at dozens of departments and they all have options other then a shotgun either in the vehicle or quickly accessible.
Quit arguing Cryus.
"The average beat cop has an 870 with an extended magazine. No folding stocks, uber elite taclight, bandoliers or anything of that sort."
Not entirely correct. Depends on where you are. Here in lovely St. Louis MO (most dangerous city 2002,2003,2006...and pushing for a strong finish in 2008) our beat cops either have a AR or a Berretta Storm in the car.
I know. I train many of them. I would like to think they receive very high quality "breech and clear" training. I think they could use a bit more of it but we work them pretty hard...
They are allowed to bring an AR or the dept will issue them a Storm. Why they chose the Storm I cannot say (cost about 1/2 of a MP5).
Just my .02
I just saw those new numbers, I can't remember #3, but here's the short list:
1.) Detroit
2.) Memphis (Whoo! Hometown proud!)
3.) ???
4.) Nashville
Quote from: raulduke on June 19, 2008, 10:03:48 PM
They are allowed to bring an AR or the dept will issue them a Storm. Why they chose the Storm I cannot say (cost about 1/2 of a MP5).
Just my .02
Contract with Beretta, probably.
DOn't compare the retail pricing, you have no idea what kind of a deal they get for them.
NYPD has a 10 year contract with Glock to supply 18,000 G23 pistols, repair parts and smithing for something like $250 per gun. I believe the contract was recently extended as well. This was also for the custom trigger setup required by their less-than-skilled shooters.
They also have a contract with S&W for the 4006, but I think that is for far fewer guns, maybe 8-10k of them. They will likely renew for the M&P if it passes the NYPD's "idiot" tests. Those are running around $200 each.
Too bad I can't get those kinds of deals because I chose a different profession. I'd have quite a collection.
Quote from: ato memphis on June 20, 2008, 06:34:48 AM
Too bad I can't get those kinds of deals because I chose a different profession. I'd have quite a collection.
oh, they don't own them, they are dept issue. NYPD does not sell their old guns, they go to a smelter.
i'm just saying - pricewise - that'd be nice.
Quote from: silentbob on June 17, 2008, 10:16:02 AM
[laugh] Agreed. I have a .40 with hollow points for home defense. I am currently unprepared for zombie attacks though. ;D
Quote from: ducatizzzz on June 20, 2008, 10:26:35 AM
oh, they don't own them, they are dept issue. NYPD does not sell their old guns, they go to a smelter.
Yep, most of those are department issue. Alot of agencies out here require you to purchase your own firearm, so we do get good deals and they are ours to keep.
Quote from: ato memphis on June 20, 2008, 05:14:32 AM
I just saw those new numbers, I can't remember #3, but here's the short list:
1.) Detroit
2.) Memphis (Whoo! Hometown proud!)
3.) ???
4.) Nashville
D.C. or Philly?
Think it might be Camden NJ.
I'm going to the Valley Forge Gun Show in King of Prussia PA tomorrow. I'll post up a review once I get back.
It was Baltimore.
http://www.commercialappeal.com/news/2008/jun/10/number-2-with-a-bullet/?partner=yahoo_headlines
Quote1. Detroit: 2,286*
2. Memphis: 1,950
3. Baltimore: 1,631
4. Nashville: 1,509
5. Philadelphia: 1,475
6. Milwaukee: 1,403
7. Indianapolis: 1,234
8. Houston: 1,132
9. Boston: 1,155
10. Dallas: 1,069
* Number of violent crimes per 100,000 people.
Quote from: Smiling End on June 20, 2008, 01:19:43 PM
I'm going to the Valley Forge Gun Show in King of Prussia PA tomorrow. I'll post up a review once I get back.
Gun shows are always an interesting "cultural" event. ;D
Quote from: Sinister on June 20, 2008, 02:22:41 PM
Gun shows are always an interesting "cultural" event. ;D
Where else can you find guns, ammo, knives, beef jerky, nazi memorabilia and knitting supplies under one roof?
Quote from: ducatizzzz on June 20, 2008, 02:45:48 PM
Where else can you find guns, ammo, knives, beef jerky, nazi memorabilia and knitting supplies under one roof?
Not to mention, information on building your own bomb shelter, surviving a nuclear blast, safely drinking your own urine, and great patterns for making camo clothes for baby.
Quote from: Sinister on June 20, 2008, 02:51:03 PM
Not to mention, information on building your own bomb shelter, surviving a nuclear blast, safely drinking your own urine, and great patterns for making camo clothes for baby.
what is unsafe about drinking urine? tell me now!!
Quote from: Stangman on June 20, 2008, 12:00:26 PM
I have a .40 with hollow points for home defense. I am currently unprepared for zombie attacks though. ;D
Zombie Defense Kits:
http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/gadgets/the-zombie-preparedness-kit-195294.php (http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/gadgets/the-zombie-preparedness-kit-195294.php)
http://www.techeblog.com/index.php/tech-gadget/pictures-emergency-zombie-defense-station (http://www.techeblog.com/index.php/tech-gadget/pictures-emergency-zombie-defense-station)
...and survival kit (BYOG):
http://www.funnyjunk.com/funny_Pictures/1219/Zombie+Survival+Kit/ (http://www.funnyjunk.com/funny_Pictures/1219/Zombie+Survival+Kit/)
Quote from: Sinister on June 20, 2008, 02:51:03 PM
Not to mention, information on building your own bomb shelter, surviving a nuclear blast, safely drinking your own urine, and great patterns for making camo clothes for baby.
Hey, how did you get the inventory list for my booth?
I went to a one a few years ago and it was, uh, very interesting. It was a lot smaller than this one so I can't wait for tomorrow.
[laugh] Agreed. I have a .40 with hollow points for home defense. I am currently unprepared for zombie attacks though. ;D
[/quote]
I'm also not yet prepared for Zombie Attacks ;D ;)
Quote from: ducatizzzz on June 20, 2008, 02:54:47 PM
what is unsafe about drinking urine? tell me now!!
puke tends to draw flies...
And I have heard no mention of the fun being had with the saiga 12 shotguns. nothing prettyy but they do go bang every time and with 10 round magazines zombies beware!
Quote from: ducatizzzz on June 20, 2008, 02:54:47 PM
what is unsafe about drinking urine? tell me now!!
Uh, nothing man; it's all good. :-\
I'm a fan of the lock picking books, how to commit a burgulary, and my all time favorite.......how to assassinate someone.
Quote from: c_rex on June 20, 2008, 05:20:58 PM
puke tends to draw flies...
who said anything about puke? That's disgusting! [puke]
Quote from: Sinister on June 20, 2008, 07:10:16 PM
Uh, nothing man; it's all good. :-\
it's very healthy, you should try it, just not after you've eaten asparagus. [laugh]
Quote from: ducatizzzz on June 21, 2008, 08:14:39 AM
who said anything about puke? That's disgusting! [puke]
it's very healthy, you should try it, just not after you've eaten asparagus. [laugh]
anything that makes one puke should be considered unsafe... take brussel sprouts for instance.
... not in a box. not in sox. not with a fox. I will not drink it. :)
back on topic- "recoil absorbing butt stocks"... anyone have one and have things to say?
Quote from: c_rex on June 21, 2008, 02:27:00 PM
anything that makes one puke should be considered unsafe... take brussel sprouts for instance.
... not in a box. not in sox. not with a fox. I will not drink it. :)
tee hee.. y'all have such thin skins. what if you were dying and had to drink pee pee?
Quoteback on topic- "recoil absorbing butt stocks"... anyone have one and have things to say?
i have a rubber buttpad on a couple of guns but i rarely find them necessary. it really depends on your body and your style of shooting. if you're muscular, you won't need them but if you're bony, you might.
i find the most important thing is the grip type. i tend to prefer a traditional rifle-pistol grip rather than a vertical pistol-pistol grip. the style of shooting is key and i am a huge fan of aimed fire and control, which is much easier with a rifle style.
On my Benelli, I have the comfort gel-pad. They have some fancier buttstocks to absorb recoil, and they have a mercury tube to fit inside it as well.
I'm a large mammal, so that's stuff isn't really needed for me.
Quote from: c_rex on June 21, 2008, 02:27:00 PM
"recoil absorbing butt"... anyone have one and have things to say?
You're on the wrong board.
Quote from: ducatizzzz on June 21, 2008, 02:47:28 PM
what if you were dying and had to drink pee pee?
Or if she was just really hot.
[laugh]
focus now... I'm not talking latex skirts here...
I'm considering the Mesa Tactical low mount or LEO stock set for my 870. I don't disagree with your incourigableness but am looking for input wrt the recoil absorbing butstock (not A$$).
So, I went to the Valley Forge Gun Show yesterday. It was pretty good. It wasn't nearly as "colorful" as I was expecting. It actually was better than the one I went to in NY last year. There was quite a varied selection of firearms, a lot of AR's, shotguns, SKS's and handguns. There was also some crazy stuff like Uzi's, mini Uzi's, Steyr Aug 3 (which isn't really anything special just looks crazy), and a few m203 grenade uh I mean "flare" launchers. There were also a lot of pistol grip Mossberg 500 shotguns with the loop attached to the pump. They were pretty cool and very heavy.
In addition to the firearms there were quite a few parts guys there as well as magazine vendors and two ammo vendors. The ammo was decently prized (a buck or two less than Natchez) and the magazines were definitely cheap. I picked up two factory sealed Bushmaster 30rd magazines for less than $50.
My two friends that came had a good time too. My one buddy was able to get 6 factory sealed 20rd Ruger Mini 14 magazines for $35 a piece, $15 cheaper than anywhere else he's looked, and my other friend bought a level IIIA ballistic vest.
It was definitely worth the two hour drive there. If anyone is within a good driving distance I'd say check it out when it comes around again in late September.
Quote from: Smiling End on June 22, 2008, 08:18:43 AM
So, I went to the Valley Forge Gun Show yesterday. It was pretty good. It wasn't nearly as "colorful" as I was expecting. It actually was better than the one I went to in NY last year.
that is to be expected, NY is more fascist by far than PA regarding the gun shows.
VF is fairly good about keeping the non-gun vendors less than 10-20% of the stuff. anything mor eand it's just a fleamarket.
Wow, this has been an interesting 8 pages of posts to read. More pics too......since all the acronyms are messing me up. [popcorn]
Oh, and since 'tone' is always hard to interpret on these things.....I'm not being a jackhole either.
Quote from: c_rex on June 21, 2008, 02:27:00 PM
back on topic- "recoil absorbing butt stocks"... anyone have one and have things to say?
I've got a Knoxx SpecOps Stock (http://www.knoxx.com/kSTORE/viewProd.php?id=1) on my Mossy 500 Mariner. It's a bit pricey. But, I paid about 1/5th retail for it. The Mossy just had a pistol grip that came with it and I wanted a stock. Reviews, it's not bad. I've put hundreds of rounds down range with a standard Moss 500 during qualifications. So, I'm used to the standard kick of a shotgun using slugs and various shot. And, it's fully tolerable up until 30-40 rounds. After that, the shoulder gets a bit sore. The Knoxx will go 150 rounds without being sore in the morning. In addition to the ease, follow shots are practically right on target. The "shocks" push it back and allows the barrel to stay on target much easier. Much more rifle like.
thx Slowpoke... that's what I'm looking for. I've got a chronic shoulder injury that flares up when abused. I saw that Knoxx setup and liked it but what's the deal with that gap at the butt end of the reciever? Why does the recoiling version have it while the non recoil adjustable version doesn't? I don't claim to have the smoothest pull and I can totally see myself hanging up on that jagged line. Cheers man.
JG has police trade-in Win 1300's (http://www.jgsales.com/product_info.php/p/winchester-model-1300-defender-12gax3in-good-to-very-good-condition/products_id/2464?osCsid=74eaa40cfa23342fdcb15ab0215d3621)for a good price:
Stamped with "NCSO" (Navaho County Sheriff's Office).. These rode around in squad cars and shot at people n stuff.
(http://www.jgsales.com/images/1%20Winchester%201300%20Defender%20G_VG%203500708.jpg)
Quote from: c_rex on June 23, 2008, 09:48:44 PM
thx Slowpoke... that's what I'm looking for. I've got a chronic shoulder injury that flares up when abused. I saw that Knoxx setup and liked it but what's the deal with that gap at the butt end of the reciever? Why does the recoiling version have it while the non recoil adjustable version doesn't? I don't claim to have the smoothest pull and I can totally see myself hanging up on that jagged line. Cheers man.
That gap allows the compression of the shock. You won't even notice it. You won't hang on it.
For home defense, I am thinking about ditching my 20 gauge remington for a Ruger carbine .40S&W, using hollow points to prevent unintended thru-wall incidents. We went 20 gauge on the shotgun so my wife could use it without dislocating her shoulder (she's 5'2" 115lb so a 12 or 16 is a bit much for her), but the thing is still heavy and gives a decent kick.
Any opinions on making this transition?
Quote from: ducsix on July 18, 2008, 05:33:46 AM
For home defense, I am thinking about ditching my 20 gauge remington for a Ruger carbine .40S&W, using hollow points to prevent unintended thru-wall incidents.
Are you thinking a P-Series semi-auto pistol? 'Carbine' makes me think Mini-14, but you reference a handgun caliber. ??? I'd say stick with the 20-ga; maybe get the barrel shortened, a bit, and use 00-buckshot.
Quote from: Sinister on July 18, 2008, 07:26:46 AM
Are you thinking a P-Series semi-auto pistol? 'Carbine' makes me think Mini-14, but you reference a handgun caliber. ??? I'd say stick with the 20-ga; maybe get the barrel shortened, a bit, and use 00-buckshot.
I'm looking at the PC-40 in .40S&W. My personal preference is to stick with the 20 gauge (actually what I really want is a 12-ga Mossberg 500) but my wife just isn't 100% comfortable with it. She's done a bit of target practice with a .30 M1 and really enjoyed it, so another bonus of the carbine would be that it'd be a lot of fun at the range.
Got a link?
Quote from: Sinister on July 18, 2008, 08:34:24 AM
Got a link?
Nope. My only knowledge of the gun is from spending some range time using a friend's PC-40, and looking at a few gunbroker.com ads. I'm new to rifles and am open to other options as long as I can get something with a reasonably modern firing pin safety.
Stick with the shotgun, dude; or get a pistol.
I have a Remington shot gun I use for dove hunting. I'm really not sure the model number, as it's at home and I'm at work.
but...for home defense, sometimes I feel like it might be a little two long to swing around. So, I've been thinking of getting one of these to keep in the night stand:
(http://www.notpurfect.com/main/taur410.jpg)
5 .410 rounds in the palm of my hand 8)
Quote from: Sinister on July 18, 2008, 09:07:18 AM
Stick with the shotgun, dude; or get a pistol.
A handgun is not an option for me, for reasons I'd rather not get into here.
I'm curious about arguments against going with a carbine. A carbine with .40S&W hollow points is going to have just as much stopping power as a shotgun, but without the weight or recoil issues. Why would this not be a good option?
Aiming, for one.
Quote from: ato memphis on July 18, 2008, 09:31:53 AM
Aiming, for one.
You need to aim a shotgun just as much as any other gun at ranges needed for typical home defense scenarios. Shot spreads at about 1" per yard (after the 1st yard traveled) so it's not like your going to spray half the room with a single shot...
Quote from: ducsix on July 18, 2008, 09:27:08 AM
I'm curious about arguments against going with a carbine. A carbine with .40S&W hollow points is going to have just as much stopping power as a shotgun, but without the weight or recoil issues. Why would this not be a good option?
A couple reasons:
1.) I like shotguns. You have a shotgun, with which you are comfortable (as is your wife). Comfort is big. I have two 12-gauges in the bedroom closet: a pump Ithaca (5 shots) and a Winchester repeater (3 shots)...even though it has two less shells, I'd pick up the Winnie in the dark everytime. Why? I've put hundreds of rounds through it and for me it's as simple as breathing.
2.) Accuracy. The shotgun pattern for 00-buckshot, at 20-odd feet is probably about 6" in diameter, depending on choke and a few other things. The bullet from your carbine is .4" wide. Now, given the massive adrenaline dump AND shitpot of fear in your gut AND the colon full of water, threatening to pour out your anus, which all appear when you hear the Baddie in the hall, I would prefer a bit of extra tolerance on my accuracy. It's not much, but I'll take all I can get.
3.) The Load. The .40 S&W is a pistol round. That is the purpose it was developed. I don't know the ballistics of this load coming out of the PC-40, mainly because I can't find any info on Ruger's site. With a shotgun, you can vary loads. Right now, I have two 00-buck shells followed up with a slug, in both my guns. There are other variations; if you just want to torture your housebreaker, you can put in #8 trap loads or rocksalt ;D.
Food for thought. Of course, this is just my opinion; do what's right for you and yours. Do it safely. [thumbsup]
Practice Mozambiques. [thumbsup] [thumbsup]
Quote from: ducsix on July 18, 2008, 09:39:49 AM
You need to aim a shotgun just as much as any other gun at ranges needed for typical home defense scenarios. Shot spreads at about 1" per yard (after the 1st yard traveled) so it's not like your going to spray half the room with a single shot...
That depends on barrel length, choke tube (if applicable), type of shot, etc.
Quote from: Sinister on July 18, 2008, 09:43:36 AM
A couple reasons:
...
2.) Accuracy. The shotgun pattern for 00-buckshot, at 20-odd feet is probably about 6" in diameter, depending on choke and a few other things. The bullet from your carbine is .4" wide. Now, given the massive adrenaline dump AND shitpot of fear in your gut AND the colon full of water, threatening to pour out your anus, which all appear when you hear the Baddie in the hall, I would prefer a bit of extra tolerance on my accuracy. It's not much, but I'll take all I can get.
3.) The Load. The .40 S&W is a pistol round. That is the purpose it was developed. I don't know the ballistics of this load coming out of the PC-40, mainly because I can't find any info on Ruger's site.
...
Whoa... thanks for the visual out of #2 above! [laugh]
#3 I saw some sort of relevant info on the Chuck Hawk's site not long ago while researching hunting rifles. Maybe you could take a peek there and let us know what you think. It was a bit above my head but I got the general gist of what I was looking for from it.
[moto]
Screw all that nonsense... this is a "tactical" shotgun....
Saiga 12 ga.
(http://www.tromix.com/images/PolySpike1w.jpg)
Quote from: ato memphis on July 18, 2008, 09:46:16 AM
That depends on barrel length, choke tube (if applicable), type of shot, etc.
right. an 870 with a 12" barrel has a nice spread
Quote from: ducsix on July 18, 2008, 09:27:08 AM
I'm curious about arguments against going with a carbine. A carbine with .40S&W hollow points is going to have just as much stopping power as a shotgun, but without the weight or recoil issues. Why would this not be a good option?
over penetration is a big issue.
The Ruger PC's are great rifles, I had a PC9 (only weapon I've ever sold and I'll never do it again). Excellent concept all around, but you still have the "wall penetration" issue when using it in your home.
12 ga bird shot is the best in-home round. plenty of damage to a goblin, but it leaves very tiny holes in your walls and will not penetrate standard 1/2" masonite or wallboard.
a typical .40 round will penetrate most masonite and wallboard, but will be stopped by a joist or wall frame (any 2x4).
if you use soft points (JSP) or hollow points you can get even better non-penetration use, but they will still go thru some wallboard and fragment.
low impulse shotgun round. bird shot. (for in the house)
Quote from: ducatania on July 18, 2008, 03:39:45 PM
Screw all that nonsense... this is a "tactical" shotgun....
Saiga 12 ga.
(http://www.tromix.com/images/PolySpike1w.jpg)
Dat is purdy.
Semi-auto...large capacity detachable magazine...I wonder how many states the Saiga is legal in.
plenty legal in TN. should be legal everywhere.
Pretty much everywhere but CA... [laugh] [laugh] [laugh]
I LOVE buying guns marked "Not legal for sale in CA" on the box. [thumbsup]
Quote from: ato memphis on July 20, 2008, 08:10:58 AM
plenty legal in TN. should be legal everywhere.
:hijack: I picked up an M1 Garand last weekend. ;D
On an even better note, I spoke with Nighthawk the other day and my pistol is in it's final stages. They asked me to check back next week. [thumbsup]
Anyone remember that full-auto 12 gauge with the drum magazine that fired explosive shells?
Home defence indeed. ;D
Street Sweeper.
Quote from: rgramjet on July 20, 2008, 09:15:09 AM
Street Sweeper.
No, the AA-12. ;D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4ebtj1jR7c&feature=related
Quote from: ducatizzzz on July 17, 2008, 04:26:33 AM
JG has police trade-in Win 1300's (http://www.jgsales.com/product_info.php/p/winchester-model-1300-defender-12gax3in-good-to-very-good-condition/products_id/2464?osCsid=74eaa40cfa23342fdcb15ab0215d3621)for a good price:
Stamped with "NCSO" (Navaho County Sheriff's Office).. These rode around in squad cars and shot at people n stuff.
(http://www.jgsales.com/images/1%20Winchester%201300%20Defender%20G_VG%203500708.jpg)
I just ordered on of these. Thanks for the link. Can't beat the price.
Just bought the FN 1300 Tac SG. 18" choke tube barrel, matte finish, 8+1 capacity and an extra speed feed. Its a couple weeks away but Im pumped! Its in need of a Knox Spec ops collapsable stock, a rail and a Halo sight.
Quote from: monsterRS on July 20, 2008, 01:00:17 PM
I just ordered on of these. Thanks for the link. Can't beat the price.
JG are good folks and have some great deals on things. Ammo prices are average but they will usually be cheaper on the shipping for some reason. I've picked up a few rifles and several pistols from them, all surplus or police trade-in. Description is always right-on.
That 1300 is mighty tempting. I think I have "enough" 12 ga shotguns tho (i.e. more than I can reasonably carry to the range at a single go)... rofl.
Ive often said they should supply shopping carts at the range..... [bacon]
I just use a plain 'ol Rem 870 16" shotgun for on duty with a bead sight. The ninjafied shotguns are silly... The only thing that I added was a mount to hold 5 shells on the side of the gun, but thats mostly just to make the course easier to run than fumbling with shells in my pocket ;D
Quote from: Calibretto on July 27, 2008, 02:17:14 PM
I just use a plain 'ol Rem 870 16" shotgun for on duty with a bead sight. The ninjafied shotguns are silly... The only thing that I added was a mount to hold 5 shells on the side of the gun, but thats mostly just to make the course easier to run than fumbling with shells in my pocket ;D
16" ?
that's what she said.
Quote from: ato memphis on July 27, 2008, 05:07:32 PM
that's what she said.
dude, if SHE said that you better run
Quote from: ducatizzzz on July 27, 2008, 02:37:38 PM
16" ?
Whoops my bad, its the 18" barrel not 16. mixed it up with the RRA I got. My bad lol.
Either way, I'd just stick with the tried and true basics, less things to fail, and less junk hanging off it to weigh the gun down and get in the way. But thats just a personal pref.
Picking up the FN tomorrow. Hmmmm lazer or red dot??
Quote from: rgramjet on August 20, 2008, 04:29:53 PM
Picking up the FN tomorrow. Hmmmm lazer or red dot??
i am not a fan of laser. you can see the origin of it, so it is like a "here i am" feature on a firearm.
i like the tactical flash lights mounted on the pump. lights are more useful -- they are blinding.
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i203/gordonhulme/spring2008115.jpg)
That's a pretty sick lookin' piece
Who makes that forend? Looks very similar to the FN I picked up today.
My buddy also has an FN PBR that is awesome! .308, box mag with Hogue stock, fluted 24" barrel and factory picatinny rail. I think FN got everything right on this one. Im actually considering selling my 700pss.
Quote from: rgramjet on August 21, 2008, 01:19:22 PM
Who makes that forend? Looks very similar to the FN I picked up today.
My buddy also has an FN PBR that is awesome! .308, box mag with Hogue stock, fluted 24" barrel and factory picatinny rail. I think FN got everything right on this one. Im actually considering selling my 700pss.
I think it's made by Wilson. http://www.wilsoncombat.com/sa_foregrips.asp
Is that FN rifle the SPR? sounds like it
PBR=Police Bolt Rifle He wants $750 for it brand new in the box.....Im tempted.
Quote from: ducatizzzz on August 20, 2008, 06:48:01 PM
i am not a fan of laser. you can see the origin of it, so it is like a "here i am" feature on a firearm.
i like the tactical flash lights mounted on the pump. lights are more useful -- they are blinding.
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i203/gordonhulme/spring2008115.jpg)
Scattergun Technologies to the rescue!! ;)
Quote from: rgramjet on August 21, 2008, 01:19:22 PM
Who makes that forend? Looks very similar to the FN I picked up today.
It's actually an older Surefire piece. They make all sorts of nice weapon lights for just about any fixture.
I couldnt decide between a top folding stock and a plain ole pistol grip so I bought both. Also got an aftermarket forend (forgot whose) with a rail section that will hold a light mount. All from CDNN.
i think i'm late to this party, but thought i'd throw in.
i figure when i get back to the states i'm going to pick up a mossberg 590. the 590 gets the nod over the 500 because of the metal bits and pieces, instead of plastic.
am i ever going to need 8+1 of twelve gauge? seriously doubt it, but i'm not that big a fan of reloading.
why a "tactical shotgun?" because i like matte black. ;)
Quote from: zarn02 on August 24, 2008, 04:17:24 AM
i think i'm late to this party, but thought i'd throw in.
i figure when i get back to the states i'm going to pick up a mossberg 590. the 590 gets the nod over the 500 because of the metal bits and pieces, instead of plastic.
am i ever going to need 8+1 of twelve gauge? seriously doubt it, but i'm not that big a fan of reloading.
why a "tactical shotgun?" because i like matte black. ;)
there are fully metal 500 parts. the only part that is plastic on the 500 is the trigger group housing, which you can swap for a steel one. (got one for $30 on gunbroker).
that being said, the only other advantage of the 590 is the tube extension capability.
my take is to just pay the $200 and get a 14" barrel with the 500. Looks better too.
I thought "tactical" shotgun meant you liked the way it felt, but then someone corrected me, I thought they were saying "Tactile". rofl
Of course right after I bought all this crap I went into my local gun store where they had an 870 SPS shorty, pistol grip, 14" barrel and bad to the bone. $600. They said it takes 3 months, a $5 tax stamp and a trip to Jessup, MD to get fingerprinted etc.
I hope that thing wasn't a 14" barrel with nothing but a pistol grip. I would hate to imagine how hard that thing would be to control.
Quote from: DRKWNG on August 24, 2008, 10:17:09 AM
I hope that thing wasn't a 14" barrel with nothing but a pistol grip. I would hate to imagine how hard that thing would be to control.
you would be surprised. you fire from the hip and it is fine. my NFA has a 12" barrel and even with 3" magnum shells, it is manageable. i would not do it all afternoon, but it isn't as bad as you'd think.
Quote from: ducatizzzz on August 24, 2008, 10:21:35 AM
you would be surprised. you fire from the hip and it is fine. my NFA has a 12" barrel and even with 3" magnum shells, it is manageable. i would not do it all afternoon, but it isn't as bad as you'd think.
Whats the capacity with the 12" barrel? I think the 870 is 4+1.
Quote from: ducatizzzz on August 24, 2008, 10:21:35 AM
you would be surprised. you fire from the hip and it is fine. my NFA has a 12" barrel and even with 3" magnum shells, it is manageable. i would not do it all afternoon, but it isn't as bad as you'd think.
I don't know. Coming from a military background, and working with quite a few "operators", I see shotguns with barrels that short as being show-boat pieces. They are basically useless for anything greater than bedroom ranges and are almost impossible to get a decent follow on shot with if needed.
Quote from: ducatizzzz on August 24, 2008, 10:21:35 AM
you would be surprised. you fire from the hip and it is fine.
That is a very accurate way to shoot. [roll]
Quote from: DRKWNG on August 24, 2008, 10:33:13 AM
I don't know. Coming from a military background, and working with quite a few "operators", I see shotguns with barrels that short as being show-boat pieces.
If you have seen SOF guys carrying shorty shotguns, they are for Door Breaching.
Quote from: rgramjet on August 24, 2008, 10:26:10 AM
Whats the capacity with the 12" barrel? I think the 870 is 4+1.
with 2 3/4" shells, it's 4 in the tube.
Quote from: DRKWNG on August 24, 2008, 10:33:13 AM
I don't know. Coming from a military background, and working with quite a few "operators", I see shotguns with barrels that short as being show-boat pieces. They are basically useless for anything greater than bedroom ranges and are almost impossible to get a decent follow on shot with if needed.
coming from a military background, and working with quite a few "operators", I've seen shotguns used in very novel ways. main use is door breaching, but other uses include disabling equipment with slugs and crowd control.
Quote from: kopfjager on August 24, 2008, 10:45:29 AM
That is a very accurate way to shoot. [roll]
it is accurate enough for the tool. if you want a tack driver, you're not going to use an SBS anyhow.
but i wasn't talking about accuracy, i was talking about control-ability. they can do the job. if you are using shot, you are using low-impulse stuff anyhow. in a military/tactical context you will use slugs most of the time.
Quote from: ducatizzzz on August 24, 2008, 11:04:45 AM
it is accurate enough for the tool. if you want a tack driver, you're not going to use an SBS anyhow.
Sorry. I completely disagree with you.
Coming from more than 20 yrs in the SOF Community.
Quote from: kopfjager on August 24, 2008, 11:24:07 AM
Sorry. I completely disagree with you.
Coming from more than 20 yrs in the SOF Community.
it's a free country!
There are lots of different kinds of ppl coming out of SOCOM. It's not a gold standard.
Plus, tactical shotguns and SBS are used by plenty of other types of agencies and groups. This isn't a SOCOM-specific discussion.
both DoJ and Treasury use SBS (a 14" model) for specific operations. DoJ equips FWPP agents with them for instance.
Only people in Movieland shoot guns from the hip.
The DoJ and the Treasury are fool of Tools.
Quote from: kopfjager on August 24, 2008, 12:04:23 PM
Only people in Movieland shoot guns from the hip.
The DoJ and the Treasury are fool of Tools.
[roll]
Settle down now, Clarence.
Here is a DoD document for US infantry. You better call some folks up and give 'em a lesson.
Quote
071-010-0006 (SL1) - Engage Targets with an M249 Machine Gun
Standards: Applied correct M249 machine gun target engagement techniques and hit each target in your assigned sector of fire.
Quote
>snip<
d. Hip. Use the hip firing position when closing with the enemy, when a heavy volume of fire in the target area is required, and when rapid movement is not necessary (figure 071-010-0006-5).
(http://www.armystudyguide.com/images2/a0035.gif)
Figure 071-010-0006-5. Hip firing position
And here is a grunt at a range. I wonder if he is in Movieland?
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=5b2_1200934066
Oh,lookie here (http://tri.army.mil/LC/CS/csi/satoc.htm).. a .mil website says
QuoteM16A2 Rifle is a lightweight, air-cooled, gas-operated, magazine-fed, shoulder- or hip-fired weapon designed for either automatic fire (3-round bursts) or semi-automatic fire through the use of a selector lever.
Or is that the Movieland US military telling grunts to hip-fire the M16 and the M249?
or maybe they are fools of tools too?
Exactly. Whoever had anything to do with that video is a Tool. Most likley it was an Officer. [roll]
I teach for a living, I know what the make the beast with two backs I'm talking about.
Oh, and it was Francis.
Quote from: kopfjager on August 24, 2008, 12:31:05 PM
Exactly. Whoever had anything to do with that video is a Tool. Most likley it was an Officer. [roll]
I teach for a living, I know what the make the beast with two backs I'm talking about.
Oh, and it was Francis.
Forget the video -- who knows from where it came.
What about the training document? You just want to pretend that doesn't exist?
You haven't made it to Francis yet. You're still just a Clarence. Be lucking you're not a Bertram.
Only a zero or a wet behind the ears boot would pay attention to that manual. [roll]
Quote from: kopfjager on August 24, 2008, 01:16:53 PM
Only a zero or a wet behind the ears boot would pay attention to that manual. [roll]
Drop that zero and get with the hero.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P9yaam0p_BA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P9yaam0p_BA)
Quote from: kopfjager on August 24, 2008, 01:16:53 PM
Only a zero or a wet behind the ears boot would pay attention to that manual. [roll]
mmm kay [roll]
So.
I got the top folder and mounted it yesterday.....not so great. Cant imagine getting my cheek anywhere near that hard piece of plastic and pulling the trigger while trying to aim the rifle sights........I know its a shotgun but I might shoot a slug out of it...
I think the rear pistol grip is in order, will be mounted momentarily.
Next question os how to remove the sweat-on front and rear sight mounts?
Took the FN shooting for the first time this weekend. Form and practice is everything my friends.
First shot was 2-3/4" 00 Buckshot. Held the sg too low, too far back and not tight enough, sucker about broke my wrist! That thing is no joke! I then went through a box of low brass #8 to work on form. With each shot I learned something.
I had 2, 3" 00 Buck shells that have been rolling around the bottom of my range box.....Curiousity took over and in the great words of a Dirty Harry foe, I said to myself, "I gots to know!"
First shot of 3" I could feel the bone in my forearm wanting to break free of the muscle, very strange sensation. Second shot, I flexed the forearm muscle and it went much better.....not comfortable, but better.
Any suggestions for low recoil home defense rounds?
Disclaimer: I have extensive experience with stocked, sporting shotguns. This little beast is a totally different animal. The recoil is much more abrupt than my .44 revolver. Think it might be a function of how vertical the pistol grip mounts and the hotness of the loads I was using.
Federal Power-Shoks.
Low recoil double-ought in 2.75 and 3 in shells.
PG shotguns are a different animal, but you should pick it up. a good buttpad is essential, but iam surprised you found it so energetic..
lol
I got no stock, just the pistol grip! That sucker BARKS!
I am looking forward to experimenting with different loads and settling on one. The destructive power of Buckshot is impressive. I was shooting gallon jugs filled with water.
Quote from: rgramjet on October 22, 2008, 05:37:30 AM
lol
I got no stock, just the pistol grip! That sucker BARKS!
I am looking forward to experimenting with different loads and settling on one. The destructive power of Buckshot is impressive. I was shooting gallon jugs filled with water.
I have an Rem870 with hogue pistol and forehand grip. Great home defense and blow shite up gun. First time I shot a 3" magnum slug out of it, it made me feel sorry. stick to 2-3/4 to keep your hands happy. The 3" buckshot (15pellet 00) was more powerful, but I was ready for it after shooting the slug.
Quote from: rgramjet on October 22, 2008, 05:37:30 AM
lol
I got no stock, just the pistol grip! That sucker BARKS!
I am looking forward to experimenting with different loads and settling on one. The destructive power of Buckshot is impressive. I was shooting gallon jugs filled with water.
oh, gotcha.. missed that part.
i am not a fan of PG only shotguns, but they do the job. if you use a 12 or 14" barrel, it's actually easier to fire (in terms of recoil) since the muzzler is closer and thus, there is a shorter rise angle (i.e. less torque), but more noise. for a pg shotgun, short barrel is the way to go, legally of course -- is that an option by you?
Its an option but also a 3 month headache. Im currently shopping supressors for my .308s. Maybe Ill get a SBS at the same time and save a trip.
The FN is cool, its got an 18" barrel thats as long as the magazine. Holds 8 which I like. There is an available screw in compensator that replaces the knurled screw in choke. I know I know, "a compensator for a shotgun??".
Quote from: rgramjet on October 22, 2008, 06:55:02 PM
Its an option but also a 3 month headache. Im currently shopping supressors for my .308s. Maybe Ill get a SBS at the same time and save a trip.
The FN is cool, its got an 18" barrel thats as long as the magazine. Holds 8 which I like. There is an available screw in compensator that replaces the knurled screw in choke. I know I know, "a compensator for a shotgun??".
comps on shotguns are great for rapid fire. on a pump, not so necessary, but on a semi or full auto, very useful!