Having some trouble getting my bike going for the spring.
It idles fine, and seems to rev fine at idle. Then when I put it in gear and try to take off it bogs down and dies.
Some things that were done this winter: FCR 41 install, lightened flywheel, valve adjustment, new belts.
98 M900
Could my timing be off?
Where did the FCR's come from?
When you put the flywheel on, did you align the dot with the slot on the crank?
Ca-cycleworks.
Yes.
Quote from: ChrisK on March 10, 2014, 04:11:58 PM
Ca-cycleworks.
Yes.
OK, good answers.
Valves and belts.... experience level of the tech?
My first time doing them.
I followed the direction of the Haynes manual, ducati suite, ducati tech, and those on the forum when preparing myself to do them.
Belts were installed with the red dots lined up with the raised "nubs." Vertical belt given 5mm clearance, horizontal given 6.
I had a thread a while back asking some questions about checking my valves. 3 of four valves were in spec and I had to barely sand some off the closer on one to get it in spec.
I should add it takes a couple minutes to get warmed up to the point where I can give it gas and it doesn't die. If it's cold, I start it and it's idling at say 2000 rpm, if I give it gas right away it just quits. In neutral.
Sorry, 6 vertical and 5 horizontal.
Be interesting to see what slow jets are in it and how the plugs look. (Don't you reckon Nick)?
Is it worse when it warms up but starts easy?
Also I forgot what mods were done. Open airbox, pods, etc?
Shouldn't the slow jets be the same that cycleworks always has success with in their FCR's?
I'll take a plug off and take a picture.
Reason I suspect timing is because I had to take the ignition sensor bracket off at some point. I'm 99% certain I bolted it back on exactly in the same position as it was before. However, if I didn't, and/or the PO didn't have it set right, the install of the FCR's might accentuate a timing mistake. Or is that false thinking?
Also, I don't know if a timing problem would be affected by the bike warming up, as this appears to be.
(http://i842.photobucket.com/albums/zz345/chriskuecker/F3A070BA-EE2A-4589-AECC-CE97AB973F87_zpsczuljn8y.jpg) (http://s842.photobucket.com/user/chriskuecker/media/F3A070BA-EE2A-4589-AECC-CE97AB973F87_zpsczuljn8y.jpg.html)
You gotta measure up and set the ignition pick ups correctly to spec if you move them. They should have been marked before you moved them. We're talking ignition pick ups in the timing case or another part?
One plug looks too rich, not sure about the other with the light.
I have found 60 slow jets way too rich, but that's with kangaroo fuel. Nick will have the better base line specs to try for your mods. Too rich slow jets give a great cold start then clag the plugs once its warmed up.
Running stock airbox or openAB/pods? 155 main jets can be too lean for open AB or pods too.
I'm talking the bracket that the ignition pickups are mounted on behind the alternator cover. I did put markings on it before I unbolted it and then I lined them up when I put it back on.
I don't have a good cold start. The opposite.
I don't think jets that are alightly off would completely prevent it from taking off from a stop.
Are those plugs 8s or 9s in heat range? 9s may be too cold. Most people I know run 8 in NGK heat range. Could be as simple as that.
The pick up also needs to be a certain distance from the Flywheel trigger as it comes round. Check the Haynes manual on procedure. The Haynes manual has the spec (I forgot). You use a feeler gauge and set it by moving the bracket in or out a little IIRC.
Nick, Howie or someone will chime in (I don't work on many Ducks).
You need 8's for plugs Chris. 9's are way too cold.
They're 9's.
Again, I doubt that would account for completely not being able to ride away from a stop. Poor performance, sure. But not no performance, maybe I'm wrong though.
I don't think the clearances on the timing pick ups would have changed since I didn't take them off their bracket, and I reinstalled the bracket exactly as it was before.
The bike can rev up to 4 grand and more when in neutral, after warming up at idle for a couple minutes. Once under load it bogs down fast.
I should add I ran the 9's all last year, with great success. Granted, that was with the Mikunis.
Okam's razor.
Change the plugs. You'd be surprised.
It dont take much to put the pickups out, but do plugs first, then jet test and pickups (and timing case) last if needed.
NGK 9s are generally too cold, but the Exactfit coils are pretty hot if you got 'em and they can work. (Check with Chris Kelley).
60 slow jets are often too rich, add a too cold plug and you'll have fouled plugs and sluggish performance.
Occam, okay thanks. I'll try the plugs and report back. Will be soon (I have a pair of D8EA's sitting on the shelf).
Not getting spark on the vertical cylinder... That'll cause those symptoms.
Now what? I haven't changed anything electrical.
When I tried the other plugs, 8's, I noticed there's no reading on the speedo, which is an Acewell. It worked earlier today, now there's literally no text or graphics, but it still lights up blue.
ALSO, the turn signals didn't work right when I tried the 8's. Put the 9's back in and they work. But I've been taking the seat off and on so maybe the flasher is getting jostled.
Are the 9's resistor?
I noticed you said D8ea which is not a resistor plug.
Yes
Quote from: ChrisK on March 10, 2014, 06:51:32 PM
Occam, okay thanks. I'll try the plugs and report back. Will be soon (I have a pair of D8EA's sitting on the shelf).
Occam, ok pardon me [laugh], I left college in '86 ;D.
Could be some electrickery happinin' there. I would use R plugs.
Quote from: ChrisK on March 10, 2014, 07:48:45 PM
Yes
Is the tach hooked up to the vertical coil?
I'd have to check, but I'm pretty sure you want a DPR8EA-9
My 9 plugs are DR9EA's.
Tach is hooked up to horizontal, the working cylinder.
Quote from: ducpainter on March 10, 2014, 07:54:40 PM
Is the tach hooked up to the vertical coil?
I'd have to check, but I'm pretty sure you want a DPR8EA-9
Yep, correct plug, 8s the heat, 9s the gap.
The four wires coming out of the alternator cover seem to be in good condition and plugged in up by the coils just fine. Haven't been unplugged since my last ride last year. The coils are mounted solid and the spark plug wires seem fine all the way down to the plugs.
Can anyone think of anything else that would prevent one cylinder from getting spark?
Both cylinders firing with the R plugs and dash and indicators working with them?
If so try the plugs DP mentioned. If only one cylinder no matter what you do, then I would suspect the pickup. Does that pickup match the cylinder not lighting? Swap ignition modules and plugs to check them (easy tests).
If its the pickup then its a PITA but not too hard, just tedious.
Also jetting to be set once both cylinders working. Thats next job.
No, doesn't matter which plug, the one cylinder doesn't fire.
I'll try swapping modules and see what happens.
I swapped the ignition modules and now it's reversed, no spark on horizontal.
Try swapping the ignitor boxes to see if the no-spark follows the box.
I had a bit of drama with my carbie 750, turned out to be broken wires from the triggers.
Check to see that there's continuity on each pair.
Make sure that both coils have both power and ground/trigger wires *securely* connected on the bottom.
Old harnesses with stiff wires and tired connectors can suffer intermittent connections after a bit of tugging wires during disassembly/assembly.
Speeddog, above you'll see that I swapped boxes and the no spark moved to the other cylinder.
Like I said, the connections look good but in your head you're probably thinking "that means shit."
So how do I check for continuity? I have a multi-meter.....
... And I'm not afraid to use it!!! : )
I should clarify that when I say I switched the igniter boxes, I mean that I just swapped the "input" wires on them. So there's four wires coming from the ignition pickups, two to each igniter box. I swapped those pairs and found that one pair is good and the other is bad.
So to me, that says I don't need to look at other connections.
If that logic is correct, how can I proceed to tell whether or not the ignition pickup for the faulty pair is sending a signal down the wire?
You found it [thumbsup].
Running with one plug wire off can take 'em out. Voltage spike, age, etc can do it.
Double/triple check before buying another ignitor. Ignitech from ducatiz or a module from CCW.
Deal with that and any dodgey wiring, then deal with jetting.
It's not the igniter box, I switched the wires coming IN to the igniter box and got each one to produce spark.
The problem is from the ignition pick up to the end of its wires, which are yellow and black.
I'm assuming that each pair of wires coming from the ignition pick ups are positive and negative.
So I stuck the probes of my multimeter into the end of each connection and switched the meter to volts.
When connected to the good pair of wires, the volts read zero, then when I turn the key and hit the starter the volts spike. When connected to the bad pair of wires the volts never zero out and just jump around randomly no matter if off or when I punch the starter.
Does that imply the ignition pickup for those wires is bad or out of position?
OK,, so it's either the wires, the trigger, or when you installed the trigger assembly you got that one too far away from the flywheel and it's not 'seeing' the lump.
Gap between the top of the lump and the trigger face is min/max .023"/.031".
Check resistance across each pair, red/white and yellow/black.
Ok thank you, and how do I check resistance again? : )
Ohms?
I think that's right. I switched my multimeter to ohms and measured across the wires. Yellow and
Black says 0.L and stays that way, red and white read between 105.6 and 105.7.
So it looks very much like you've got either a yellow/black wire problem, or that trigger is toast.
Okay, I'll keep trying to inspect the wires, I haven't been able to find any breaks yet.
If I do have to replace the trigger, where's the best place to buy from?
Quote from: ChrisK on March 10, 2014, 09:09:08 PM
It's not the igniter box, I switched the wires coming IN to the igniter box and got each one to produce spark.
The problem is from the ignition pick up to the end of its wires, which are yellow and black.
I misunderstood, bugger. The pickups are a PITA to change, but not hard.
Hope the checks find a bad wire only.
Ducati sells the pick ups as a $et, Electrex sells individual pick ups, as does Rick's http://ricksmotorsportelectrics.com (http://ricksmotorsportelectrics.com) Might be a wire.
The pick up gap is .7mm. + .1, you will need a non magnetic (brass or plastic) feeler gauge to set them.
After you fix the pick up situation install a set of fresh NGK DCPR8E #4339 (the correct plugs for your bike) before going further. Because your bike used to run on the wrong heat range is not good enough, and attempting to jet your FCRs with wrong plugs is a waste of time.
The ignition modules, though pretty rugged in normal service are failure prone when not grounded or with a plug wire off.
Quote from: ChrisK on March 10, 2014, 09:49:39 PM
Okay, I'll keep trying to inspect the wires, I haven't been able to find any breaks yet.
If I do have to replace the trigger, where's the best place to buy from?
Check where the wires go through the fitting at the cases.
Quote from: ducpainter on March 11, 2014, 03:17:17 AM
Check where the wires go through the fitting at the cases.
DP I read in a random thread on ducati.ms to check there, as that can be a point of pre-mature wear.
Howie, thank you for pointing me in the right direction. Hopefully I don't have to pickup new triggers. Either way, I will definitely pick up those plugs. I would like to think that the FCR's come pre-jetted to be able to run good for my bike. Sounds like the consensus is that jetting needs to be done on a case-by-case basis, even when purchased from Cycleworks...
Ca-Cycleworks jets for a basically stock intake set-up if I'm not mistaken. Small changes in configuration can make a difference, so every bike can benefit from some tweaking...some benefit more than others and some need different jets.
I would hope they jet for at least the K&N filter they send with you in the kit.
I was also under the impression that they jet the carbs for you based on the specs of your bike you give them in the order notes. Guess I shouldn't have assumed that.
Oh well, it hit 50 degrees here yesterday for the first time since October. I just want to make the beast with two backsing ride. [shot]
Anybody have less than favorable experience with either the Electrex or Rick's pickups? To purchase two of them from electrex and ship them here it would cost about $110. To do the same from Rick's it would cost $150 plus shipping, but I'm assuming they would get here faster.
No FHE with Rick's pick-ups, but I've had one of his regulators in my bike for about 10 years.
There are so many variables with jetting there's no possible way one setting can be right for every bike. Sure chris takes into account the K&N, but he doesn't know how open your airbox might be, or if you drilled the lid as opposed to cutting it, how many and how large the holes are. He does a good job with basic set-up. You gave him all the right info which is why your bike ran. That isn't the same as being spot on.
When I put a jet kit in my bike Bruce Meyers gave me jetting specs and told me to drill 12 3/4" holes. He had used those settings for hundreds of bikes successfully. I figured 18 1" holes was better.
His jetting recommendations were too lean...for my bike. I suspect that the way the FCR's I have now, yet to be installed, will be too lean because of the same thing.
I understand one jetting setup isn't all encompassing for these bikes, or any for that matter. What I'm saying is that in my order notes, when purchased from Ca-Cycleworks, I specified that my bike was a 98 900 with W heads, had on open air box with K&N filter, ExactFit coils, and really free-flowing slip-ons. I was under the assumption Cycleworks would take into account the details I gave them and jet my carbs with those details in mind. Too much to ask I guess.
Okay back to the triggers.
I had time at lunch to take my alternator cover off and do some inspecting. First, visual check of the wires is good, no noticeable breaks. Second visual check, not so good. One pickup appears to be very close to the timing lump on the flywheel. I spun the wheel around to the other pickup, and there's a large visible gap between it and the lump. Below are some pictures showing the difference:
(http://i842.photobucket.com/albums/zz345/chriskuecker/68D29AE9-4278-49B3-AE5C-36B92E5C9038_zpszsrfteb0.jpg) (http://s842.photobucket.com/user/chriskuecker/media/68D29AE9-4278-49B3-AE5C-36B92E5C9038_zpszsrfteb0.jpg.html)
(http://i842.photobucket.com/albums/zz345/chriskuecker/0FA6F1F4-E76A-41C4-9776-ACF468CB374C_zpsjnaavovi.jpg) (http://s842.photobucket.com/user/chriskuecker/media/0FA6F1F4-E76A-41C4-9776-ACF468CB374C_zpsjnaavovi.jpg.html)
So that could obviously cause no spark. BUT, that wouldn't cause no resistance, correct? So is it still safe to assume there's either a broken wire or it's a bad pickup? I ran out of time to check the resistance right at the pickup, and I plan on doing that later tonight.
Quote from: ChrisK on March 11, 2014, 09:43:51 AM
I understand one jetting setup isn't all encompassing for these bikes, or any for that matter. What I'm saying is that in my order notes, when purchased from Ca-Cycleworks, I specified that my bike was a 98 900 with W heads, had on open air box with K&N filter, ExactFit coils, and really free-flowing slip-ons. I was under the assumption Cycleworks would take into account the details I gave them and jet my carbs with those details in mind. Too much to ask I guess.
I think you're missing the point. There's no possible way he could get it spot on. The fact that it ran with the wrong plugs is a testament to how close he actually has it. Try it with the correct plugs and see how it is. The poor running has little to do with the carbs with your recent discovery of no spark.
Is the pickup that's 'close'...looks like it's actually touching in the pic...the one that has the black/yellow wires?
Quote from: ducpainter on March 11, 2014, 11:56:50 AM
Try it with the correct plugs and see how it is. The poor running has little to do with the carbs with your recent discovery of no spark.
Is the pickup that's 'close'...looks like it's actually touching in the pic...the one that has the black/yellow wires?
I know that the carbs don't have anything to do with this issue, I was just commenting on it because it was brought up.
I don't know with 100% certainty which pickup had the black/yellow wires. I just kind of assumed that the pickup that was set a ways back was the one with the black/yellow, but I see now that was wrong to assume. Again, I was in a hurry because I was doing it over my lunch.
So does this process sound right:
1) Check which pickup has the black/yellow wires
2) Test the resistance across that pickup
3) If good, find/replace faulty area in the wire.
4) If bad, order new pickup.
5) When new pickup comes in, install and set the proper air gap for both pickups.
Is it necessary to replace both, instead of just one? I see some are rated at different resistances.
O L is not zero resistance, it is infinite resistance, in other words, open circuit. Could be a wire, could be the winding. Yep, most likely place for a break would be where dp said, since the wire should be stronger than the insulation a tug might reveal the break. The resistance must be correct for the ignition modules and coils to supply proper spark. in other words 100 ohms + 5%. Yes, your .6 is close enough, could be meter error. Make sure the static timing is correct too. There should be two circles on the flywheel that line up with lines on the pick ups. Loosen and move the bracket until they line up. I don't see lines on your pick ups, but they should be in the center. As a final check, below 1500-1700 rpm is 6o, above 1700 RPM is 320. You will need to find a now pretty much obsolete tool known as a timing light. First O viewed through the inspection timing window is 0o, second 6, third 32.
Jetting carbs if your base settings and ignition is not right cannot be done correctly.
Forward pickup is the black/yellow, aft is red/white.
The mounting plate has that printed on it like this:
B W
<---- ---->
Y R
Setting the 'timing' of the triggers:
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7352/13090153824_43387884d4_o.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/79721557@N02/13090153824/)
Setting the 'gap' of the triggers:
(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2253/13089842745_3153a9960f_c.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/79721557@N02/13089842745/)
A picture is worth a thousand words [thumbsup]
Then the red/white was connected to the pickup that was really far away from the flywheel lump.
So I'll take a close look at the forward pickup and it's black/yellow wires and hopefully find a break in the wires. If not, I'll replace the pickup and proceed to set timing and gap as in the manual.
Can one of you gurus comment on my question about whether or not I should replace both pickups or just the faulty one?
Thank you for your help everyone, truly a cool place, isn't it?
Quote from: ChrisK on March 11, 2014, 01:28:09 PM
Then the red/white was connected to the pickup that was really far away from the flywheel lump.
So I'll take a close look at the forward pickup and it's black/yellow wires and hopefully find a break in the wires. If not, I'll replace the pickup and proceed to set timing and gap as in the manual.
Can one of you gurus comment on my question about whether or not I should replace both pickups or just the faulty one?
Thank you for your help everyone, truly a cool place, isn't it?
Comment with total certainty? No. Being conservative, hating breakdowns and do-overs plus, though not rich but not poor either I would (and did) replace both. If you choose to replace both check out the price of the OEM pick ups.
+1
I replaced both because removing the timing case shits me.
Quote from: howie on March 11, 2014, 01:35:26 PM
Comment with total certainty? No. Being conservative, hating breakdowns and do-overs plus, though not rich but not poor either I would (and did) replace both. If you choose to replace both check out the price of the OEM pick ups.
Thanks for being honest, that advice sounds good to me.
$242 for the set from Ducati. $150 for the set from Rick's. I think I'll go with Rick's.
Rick's won't come with the OEM wiring and plug, but I don't have a problem with doing some soldering if it's going to save me $92.
Quote from: ChrisK on March 11, 2014, 01:28:09 PM
Then the red/white was connected to the pickup that was really far away from the flywheel lump.
So I'll take a close look at the forward pickup and it's black/yellow wires and hopefully find a break in the wires. If not, I'll replace the pickup and proceed to set timing and gap as in the manual.
Can one of you gurus comment on my question about whether or not I should replace both pickups or just the faulty one?
Thank you for your help everyone, truly a cool place, isn't it?
I think the forward pickup is actually physically damaged from hitting the flywheel based on what I see in the pics.
I'd just replace that one.
Good news for me! Started inspecting that front pickup, tugged on its wires slightly and pop! Wire came apart. I soldered it back together and wrapped it, now I've got spark on both cylinders!
Aligned the pickups with the dots and set the clearance to .6mm.
Now I've just gotta reassemble and go for a test ride.
DP, when I had the pickup unbolted I looked closely at it and it didn't appear to be damaged.
Quote from: ChrisK on March 11, 2014, 04:25:36 PM
Good news for me! Started inspecting that front pickup, tugged on its wires slightly and pop! Wire came apart. I soldered it back together and wrapped it, now I've got spark on both cylinders!
Aligned the pickups with the dots and set the clearance to .6mm.
Now I've just gotta reassemble and go for a test ride.
DP, when I had the pickup unbolted I looked closely at it and it didn't appear to be damaged.
Go with the force... ;)
Quote from: ChrisK on March 11, 2014, 04:25:36 PM
~~~SNIP~~~
Aligned the pickups with the dots and set the clearance to .6mm.
~~~SNIP~~~
You did that with the horizontal cylinder at TDC, yes?
make the beast with two backs, I honestly don't know if I did or not Nick.
If I didn't, would that explain why I have spark on both cylinders, it idles fine, and then bogs down again when I try to get underway?
It may, but I've not done that as an experiment, so no FHE.
So what I should have done is line up the TDC marks on the flywheel, then stick a screwdriver in the horizontal cylinder to make sure the piston is there, then proceed with mounting the pickups?
Does it make a difference whether it's on the intake or exhaust stroke? If so, how do I differentiate between the two?
Well I just did what I said above. Aligned the TDC marks, made sure it was the horizontal cylinder, aligned the dots on the flywheel with the pickups, and set the clearances to .6~mm. I'm now running the DCPR8E's. I have spark on both cylinders. Still no luck.
Bike runs fine at idle, even revs up great in neutral. Then as soon as I try to take off it bogs down and dies. When I try to take off there's quite an airy noise that comes from the airbox, almost like a whistle. But that could just be me not used to the sound of the FCR's. Any other ideas?
I had the clutch basket/pack out at one point so I could paint the cover. I reinstalled it the same way it came out but could I have messed something up there? Could the jets be that far off? I would hope the stock jetting from cycleworks would at least get me down the road.
As far as the ignition is concerned, no difference between which TDC.
You need to find an accurate TDC; either piston stop and degree wheel or a dial indicator in thru the plug hole.
The big problem here is you've done a ton work in many different areas.
So it requires a methodical elimination of suspects and perpetrators.
The fact that I've had my alternator cover off twice in the last 6 hours and I'm sick of doing it might be influencing what Im about to say but here it goes...
It seems to me that because the bike will rev up to 4 grand in neutral and sound good doing it, it should be able to at least pull out of my driveway. I would think that the difference between finding TDC by using the marks on the flywheel and by using a specialized instrument wouldn't result in this behavior.
Why would it be able to rev up like that but as soon as it gets put in gear it can barely rev over 2 grand and then die?
I understand your frustration.
But finding the perpetrator doesn't get easier if you're not locking up the suspects.
Baseline stuff like valve clearances, cam timing, ignition timing have to be confirmed correct, and thus ruled out as perpetrators.
Then you can approach getting the carbs squared away.
The engine running and sounding good under no load does little more than confirm only that.
get a timing light and check the timing. it'll be right or wrong, and then you'll know. simple.
you need to do as nick says. just plod through it, one step at a time.
all fcr come from ca cycleworks with the std sudco jetting afaik, which is the same for both 39 and 41. pilots are way too rich ime, maybe not over there. needles and mains in 41 are a bit lean it seems.
Quote from: Speeddog on March 11, 2014, 10:40:07 PM
The engine running and sounding good under no load does little more than confirm only that.
I still don't understand why the engine could rev up great in neutral if the timing, cams, and valve clearances were out of whack. But again, there's a lot of things I don't understand about motors, which is why this thread has gone on this long.
I have an old timing light I will dig out and give a try.
This might be silly but did these things have a kick-stand safety mechanism? If it does, since I've owned it it's never been an issue. I know there's the kickstand switch, which would turn on a light on the OEM gauges. Just kind of wondering if maybe the safety mechanism was never working correctly this whole time and now it's working?
The switch on the '98 only turns on the light.
Quote from: howie on March 12, 2014, 08:46:57 AM
The switch on the '98 only turns on the light.
That's what I figured.
Well I just hooked up the timing light. You know how when you're finding TDC, the manual shows two dots on the flywheel, with the dot to the right lined up with the arrow? Well when the light is flashing the dot on the left is lined up with the arrow.
Does that mean I found TDC using the wrong dot? I could have sworn I didn't... but that obviously doesn't mean anything lol
There is some advance at idle...
Quote from: ducpainter on March 12, 2014, 01:14:09 PM
There is some advance at idle...
My timing light doesn't have a programmable advance or anything like that. It's old school, just a trigger. Can I use that to accomplish what I need to accomplish?
Someone's going to have to walk me through this... [bang]
I'm saying there is some advance built in to the system at idle, so it doesn't surprise me that the left dot is lined up when it's running. I'm not certain that is where it should be because I've never had the need to put a light on mine.
If you raise the rpm does the dot move to the right?
I can try that here in a couple hours and let you know.
Sort of hard to hold the light, look through the window, and twist the throttle.
Quote from: ChrisK on March 12, 2014, 01:29:01 PM
I can try that here in a couple hours and let you know.
Sort of hard to hold the light, look through the window, and twist the throttle.
I hear you.
Quote from: brad black on March 12, 2014, 02:14:10 AM
get a timing light and check the timing. it'll be right or wrong, and then you'll know. simple.
Brad, how do I know if it's 'right or wrong' based on what I've said above?
The only other way I can think to describe it's behavior is like it's over-heated. It overheated on me one time a couple years ago in heavy traffic and I had to wait on the side of the road for it to cool down. I remember that being the same way, where it could idle but then couldn't take off in 1st. Don't know if that helps any of you with diagnosing this.
Chris, have you checked the clutch...is it fully bled? My '98 has consistently died before each time it was put in gear- or soon after- due to air in clutch lines. good luck..this is all over my head
Yeah it's operating correctly, thank you for the suggestion though.
Just reading through the whole thread looking for things I've covered and/or forgot to say.
Back right before I found out I didn't have spark in one cylinder, I was able to get the bike to go down the road, by revving it really quite hard to get it going. I ran it up to 4th gear and it ran like dogshit the whole way. Eventually it started bucking and heaving and bogging down and quit on me going down the road. I pulled to the side, inspected everything, then started it back up and ran it no higher than 3rd gear back to my house.That was when I noticed the gauge and turn signals not working correctly.
I obviously attributed the terrible running to only one spark and proceeded to address that problem.
Today, the gauge and signals are working perfect again. Don't know if those are related to this problem.
Could running it that long on just one cylinder ruin one or both igniter boxes? I know that they're both still producing spark, but could it be that they're not producing the "right" spark at the "right" time, if that makes sense?
My experience with the boxes is either they work or don't. I never had one that was making a spark cause any issues.
Maybe Brad has had different experiences.
I'm starting to think its as simple as jetting.
Once the bike warms up at idle I can accelerate the throttle quickly and it revs up great. But if I try and hold that throttle after accelerating quickly for example at 5000rpm, it sputters, burps, and bogs down. Also, if I try and do a slow roll on it seems to sputter.
3 dots. if you turn the engine in the direction of rotation, you will see 1 dot, 30 degrees later another dot, then 6 degrees later another (larger?). first is max advance, second idle advance, third tdc.
get it to tdc and look through the glass at the flywheel. it should become clear.
ignition should work right or it won't.
Yeah, I believe I have all of that right.
Is it possible my fuel pump isn't keeping up with the carbs? I can jab at the throttle because it has fuel in the line, but then when I try to hold throttle at one position or accelerate slowly it cuts out.
A reason I don't think that's the problem is I can repeatedly jab at the throttle, on off on off.
Be interesting to see what color your plugs are now.
IME I would concur with Brad.
I haven't tuned a W 900, only Vs, but my 900 couldn't get down the street with 60 slow jets without clagging the plugs and stalling. I have used 50-55s.
With an open airbox, 155 mains are lean and you might want needle po-n #4 or #5. I have used up to 165 main jets with an open airbox.
Since you're way up there (and our fuel could be different), speeddog should have some baseline jetting tips as he's been playing with these carbs lately.
Does "clagging" mean too rich?
Yeah, too rich and fouled. I didn't get 100 yards up the street. On the other hand, too lean on the main jets and needles will make the bike weak or even die in the ass from 1/2 throttle upwards. If the needle is lean, but the main jet ok, you push through the weak midrange but come good as you open her right up.
Best to get a local baseline from speeddog as we use kangaroo fuel. ;D Then again, the small valve/small cam heads of the W motor may require a different setting. Even with the same mods, every bike, (and location) can be different. You get a ballpark setting and fine tune from there.
Okay, I'm waiting for Nick to reply with his recommendations for them.
On this website, on the 4th line it says they come "prejetted to your application."
http://www.ducatitech.com/2v/fcr_faq.html
Sounds to me like "prejetted universally for carbureted Ducatis" would be more appropriate.
Quote from: ChrisK on March 12, 2014, 04:53:31 PM
Okay, I'm waiting for Nick to reply with his recommendations for them.
On this website, on the 4th line it says they come "prejetted to your application."
http://www.ducatitech.com/2v/fcr_faq.html (http://www.ducatitech.com/2v/fcr_faq.html)
Sounds to me like "prejetted universally for carbureted Ducatis" would be more appropriate.
Have you tried calling Chris and explaining your problem? He's usually pretty helpful
When I got mine from Chris, I also ordered a range of slow and main jets to try as I'm not lucky. :P
Some people throw 'em on and are happy, but my ported, hi comp, enlarged open airbox 900 likes small slow jets. I'm running 50s and could go 48s! On other 900s I've only gone as low as 52s.
Then there was a hi comp 900 with FCR39s that wanted 62s with pods and 58s with a modified airbox. It's a funny ol' world. One thing's for sure, once in the ballpark FCRs give you another bike. [thumbsup]
If you are near speeddog, you could give him the bike. Sometimes an overtime shift to pay for it is quicker than doing it yourself, but if you do it yourself you learn more (usually the hard way).
Quote from: Ddan on March 12, 2014, 05:04:36 PM
Have you tried calling Chris and explaining your problem? He's usually pretty helpful
+1 He's a good bloke. [thumbsup]
Have you checked the compression? It's easy enough to check and it will at least eliminate one more possible cause. I've seen engines with poor compression that would start and run but not make any power.
Bob
Here's what one of the plugs looks like, brand new yesterday.
(http://i842.photobucket.com/albums/zz345/chriskuecker/8ED83373-6C86-4D95-9C62-4E38447E9A67_zpshumaaqte.jpg) (http://s842.photobucket.com/user/chriskuecker/media/8ED83373-6C86-4D95-9C62-4E38447E9A67_zpshumaaqte.jpg.html)
I don't have the right fitting at the moment to do a compression test.
Just to confirm (due to computer image), is that black porcelain with white patches?
Is it white deep down on the porcelain?
Also the plug base/rim is clean?
Firstly, because it's easy, you could change main jets and see how she runs.
Quote from: Langanobob on March 12, 2014, 05:47:03 PM
Have you checked the compression? It's easy enough to check and it will at least eliminate one more possible cause. I've seen engines with poor compression that would start and run but not make any power.
Bob
Yep, should have included that.
Quote from: ChrisK on March 12, 2014, 04:09:42 PM
Yeah, I believe I have all of that right.
Is it possible my fuel pump isn't keeping up with the carbs? I can jab at the throttle because it has fuel in the line, but then when I try to hold throttle at one position or accelerate slowly it cuts out.
A reason I don't think that's the problem is I can repeatedly jab at the throttle, on off on off.
Yes it is, you use much more fuel at load. Opening the throttle no load less of a problem. A restriction can do the same. Jetting from Chris should be close enough for the bike to run at least well enough to get you down the block.
Oh, i might be wrong a little on the numbers if they change from year to year, but, as Brad Black also said, first dot TDC, second dot following shortly, idle, third dot over 1500-1700 RPM full advance. No advance knob needed.
If the motor is ok and the fuel pump is ok, and if I'm seeing the plugs correctly, you could be too rich down low and very lean up higher. If the fuel pump is failing that would also cause the mid range top end lean condition.
Changing the main jets is easy via the float bowl drain bolt at the bottom and once you have some specs from speeddog you can try it. Slow jets can be accessed via removing the float bowl, fiddly but doable and needles via the top of the carbs which will be more involved.
How do the plugs look to you Howie?
Quote from: koko64 on March 12, 2014, 06:21:40 PM
Just to confirm (due to computer image), is that black porcelain with white patches?
Is it white deep down on the porcelain?
Also the plug base/rim is clean?
Firstly, because it's easy, you could change main jets and see how she runs.
It's white porcelain with brown/black patches. Yes, deep down its white. The plug's base has a small amount of an oil-looking residue on it.
Changing jets isn't easy because I'd have to order them. Easy is stuff I can do right here right now!
From way over here my guess is too big slow jets and too small main jets. It starts too rich and leans out as the throttle is opened. Howie may have a better computer screen.
A crook fuel pump can do also that.
Quote from: koko64 on March 12, 2014, 06:31:08 PM
If the motor is ok and the fuel pump is ok, and if I'm seeing the plugs correctly, you could be too rich down low and very lean up higher. If the fuel pump is failing that would also cause the mid range top end lean condition.
Changing the main jets is easy via the float bowl drain bolt at the bottom and once you have some specs from speeddog you can try it. Slow jets can be accessed via removing the float bowl, fiddly but doable and needles via the top of the carbs which will be more involved.
How do the plugs look to you Howie?
I didn't comment on plug color because I'm not sure at this point what it could mean since carbon from start up might not have burnt off and the engine has not run down the road, though i must say i don't like what seems like extreme white on the electrodes. Maybe a good "shade tree" test could be bypass the pump, fill the tank and see how it runs on gravity feed?
The electrodes are a worry. It's leaning out and getting worse as the revs rise if I understand the white porcelain deep in the plug (unseen to us) as well as the white electrodes. If that's because of lean jetting or a dodgey pump we'll see. The bypass test will at least sort the pump from the equation.
You're right about the bike not being run enough yet to get a definitive indication of jetting. If the pumps alright I think too lean though. At least we know the soot on the plugs isn't from a choke system, so I'm guessing fat slow jets. ;D
An open airbox usually needs more fuel via the needle and main jets, but I don't know what a W motor might want, maybe a little less at a guess. It's often a dodgey vacuum petcock that starves a motor (how many of those bloody things have failed on this forum). Clagged fuel filters too. I've seen a bronze gauze filter glued shut by fuel additives, even after being soaked in carb cleaner. I had Honda's with the same petcock problem and on race bikes we removed perfectly good petcocks that couldn't keep up with race jetting.
Here's a video I took of how it's running. Hopefully you guys can hear it alright over the plates.
(http://i842.photobucket.com/albums/zz345/chriskuecker/th_C1C5B6E2-7038-4C6E-B37D-A255B80720E2_zpsuxibplfg.jpg) (http://i842.photobucket.com/albums/zz345/chriskuecker/C1C5B6E2-7038-4C6E-B37D-A255B80720E2_zpsuxibplfg.mp4)
Was the bike started cold with no squirts of the accelerator pump, or was it warm already? If that motor was cold, then it started way too easy (even more so if it's cold there and you didn't prime with the accelerator pumps). That would mean too fat slow jets. If the motor was warm then disregard that.
Sounded pretty normal at idle. Couldn't judge at higher revs due to the clutch clatter. [evil] The sound may be clearer on others' computers.
I think bypassing the fuel pump as Howie suggested is a good idea, just to tick that off the list. You will need a full tank with gravity feed. See if it starves for fuel or clears up. If no difference, then you need to order a range of slow and main jets. If it's jetting related, then I would go out on a limb and say order 160, 162.5 and 165 main jets x2, and 50, 52 and 55 slow jets x2. The unused jets are worth keeping as you plan to go to V heads or other mods so you may well have to tune again. The jets aren't expensive.
I would guess the mild W heads don't need as much jetting, so say start with 160 mains and 50 slow jets, but that's a guess. There is every chance the logic works opposite. I hope someone who has tuned a W 900 motor will chime in as I'm guessing for a reasonable baseline. See what speeddog says, because maybe the mild cams and small W valves don't let much A/F mixture in meaning you really need to start with 165s and 55s! Ah the joys of tuning! [laugh]
IIRC you already changed to a manual fuel tap and have a fresh filter. But do the pump bypass test first.
Just so you know, I pmed speeddog about this thread. I think he can help you.
(Mild post whore post) ;D
I've not done FCR's on a W-head 900.
Try this as a starting point, worked well on a V-head 900:
air screws 1t
fuel screws 2t
slow jets 52
Needle clips at -5th groove from the top
Mains 160
I searched through this thread, and didn't find it...
Can you describe mods and configuration of the motor?
pods, stock filter, cut lid, stock lid, 39's, 41's, stock mid-pipe, aftermarket mid-pipe, stock cans, no cans, X-box.....
Pretty sure its a 98 M900 W heads, FCR41s, Exactfit coils, open airbox (not sure if chopped or drilled), lightened flywheel, K&N filter and free flowing cans (dunno which type).
Koko, the motor was pretty well warm when I made that video.
You were pretty spot on with the mods:
98 900W
Lightened Flywheel
FCR41
Wide open air box with K&N
ExactFit Coils
OEM Headers
Danmoto Slipons
I still have the vacuum petcock and OEM fuel pump. So sometime today I will run a fuel line straight from the tank to the carbs and see what happens. If the situation improves I will do a manual petcock and new pump. If it doesn't improve I will order a range of slow and main jets and drop the needle clip position down.
Sound right?
You may have to rejet anyway, but bypass the petcock to the pump first off, as your pump may be fine. Reports of pumps failing do sometimes occur here, but petcock failures are common.
Manual petcocks are a good mod and cheaper than oem pumps. Mikuni pump rebuild kits are available however, but my money is on the notorious petcock.
A question I just thought about sitting here: The FCR's came with a small fuel filter at the end of about 6 inches of fuel line. You take your existing fuel line and hook it up to the upstream end of that filter. Is it necessary to have both your original filter and that smaller filter? Could that be problematic? I don't know much about fuel filters.
I'm still going to investigate the petcock first, then the pump. Just thinking out loud I suppose.
Bypass the vacuum petcock, install a manual valve.
FCR's will occasionally hang a float valve, then you'll get fuel in the crankcase.
Best to always have a valve.
For no airbox top, 55 PJ may be a better start.
Quote from: Speeddog on March 13, 2014, 09:48:30 AM
Bypass the vacuum petcock, install a manual valve.
Doing this after work. Where do you guys normally mount these, for easy, firm access?
Chris, fyi, I have the fuel filter that came w/ the fcrs on my bike as well as a napa one under the tank w/ no problems. I have an aftermarket mikuni fuel pump w/ a Pingel fuel tap, both inline on the outside / left side of frame.
My W headed '98 has 165 mains in the 41's thanks to koko and brad's advice. Pulls harder & accellerates better at freeway speeds than the stock 155's.
I added the W heads...small difference mostly up top..slightly more vibrations too...
Install the manual petcock anyway. My experience is they often fail in the open position. This is how mine is mounted, not pretty, but easy access and the fuel line is moved away from the hot engine a bit. You want it to be 5/16.
(http://i298.photobucket.com/albums/mm276/hlep2890/bike/IMG_0422.jpg) (http://s298.photobucket.com/user/hlep2890/media/bike/IMG_0422.jpg.html)
Eliminated the petcock and the pump from the equation. No better. On to jetting?
Ok, use the manual petcock and oem fuel pump and jet that sucker!
Try a baseline of one of the jetting combinations mentioned and work from there.
Understand that there is jetting for these carbs that is ok, jetting that great and jetting that is awesome.
You have shown a lot of patience and jetting carbs requires it. You might get it spot on or close enough to ride the bike for a few weeks before you think there is an area in the carburation you want to change.
What jetting combo you going to try?
Quote from: koko64 on March 13, 2014, 06:22:36 PM
Ok, use the manual petcock and oem fuel pump and jet that sucker!
Try a baseline of one of the jetting combinations mentioned and work from there.
Understand that there is jetting for these carbs that is ok, jetting that great and jetting that is awesome.
You have shown a lot of patience and jetting carbs requires it. You might get it spot on or close enough to ride the bike for a few weeks before you think there is an area in the carburation you want to change.
What jetting combo you going to try?
I know it takes patience, it's just so hard to have it when the weather is FINALLY warming up around here. I went through at least a dozen jetting changes when I installed Dynojets in my Mikunis, so I'm used to this part I guess.
I'm going to order 2x:
Mains, 165, 160, 162
Slows, 55, 52, 50
When I get them in the first setup I will try will be 165 mains, 55 slows, and 5th needle position.
Any other suggestions welcome!
Also, whoever said jets are cheap just wasn't correct. Yes, as individuals they are. But when you have to buy two of each in 6 sizes...
$83.40. Glad I'm not tuning an old four cylinder...
Is there much of a difference between Genuine OEM Keihin jets and "OEM equivalent" jets?
They're half the price.
Expensive to you, but cheap down here ;D
CCW has cheaper equivalent jets iirc.
I know the slow jets are the same as in Harley Keihin 38mm butterfly carbs on 80s models. I found them cheap at my Harley dealer.
If CCW have run out you could try Powerbarn , Brad mentioned them a time back. At least you can keep them if you need them when you fit the V heads or other mods.
It would be tough after a hard winter.
I ended up going with OEM equivalents from a company called Jets-R-Us in Missouri. $3.19 for the mains and $4.67 for the slows. Brought the total to $47~. That's much easier to swallow.
Just checked them out. Another good site for jets. You guys got shops everywhere!
Quote from: ChrisK on March 14, 2014, 06:18:31 AM
I know it takes patience, I went through at least a dozen jetting changes when I installed Dynojets in my Mikunis, so I'm used to this part I guess.
So you are well versed in the airbox/battery box removal drill [bang].
I separated the airbox from the battery box. I run a small Li battery so there was no strain on the battery box bolts. I cut at the join between the two and removed material, but leave enough for the battery straps. On my own bike, I trimmed down the battery box and used the bung holes to fit straps. I also cut off that annoying little alloy tab on the Ignition/steering lock that snags the front of the airbox on install [bang]. With a dremel, I made little arches above the tops of the FCRs top cap so I just remove the battery box to access the needles with the airbox in place. Removing just the battery box is so much quicker. I change main and slow jets via the drain cap and float bowl. Airbox stays put.
Speeddog fit stabilizing brackets between the airbox and battery box. Imagine one end of the bracket bolted on and one end with Dzu fasteners; trick!
I can email you pics if you PM me.
Wow, that sounds great, can't believe I didn't think of that.
I'll send ya my address.
Sorry about the pics. I didn't have any during the mods. The lighting wasn't real good, but I think you get the idea.
You were right, Koko, that is much easier like that.
(http://i842.photobucket.com/albums/zz345/chriskuecker/9908D4AA-EE65-48B1-A07E-00831F6ADAED_zpse6cme55k.jpg) (http://s842.photobucket.com/user/chriskuecker/media/9908D4AA-EE65-48B1-A07E-00831F6ADAED_zpse6cme55k.jpg.html)
Needle clips at the 5th position now, just waiting for the other jets to arrive.
After eliminating the vacuum operated petcock, what do you guys do with the old line? Is there a cap you can get to replace the hose or something like that?
Quote from: ChrisK on March 16, 2014, 03:27:19 PM
After eliminating the vacuum operated petcock, what do you guys do with the old line? Is there a cap you can get to replace the hose or something like that?
Auto parts store should have a vacuum cap. 5mm would be 3/16"
+1.
I think I also may have plugged one with an alloy bolt and clamp and used it for synching the carbs. Then I did a set up on the other outer side.
The caps are neater.
Cool, thanks you two.
Chances are a regular one will be fine but...if they have a silicone cap...buy it. You won't have to worry about it cracking and causing a leak a few years down the road.
Another question along those lines.
On my intake manifolds, on the 'outside' of them there are two more nipples. Each one has a hose connected two them, which then meet in a T-fitting and another hose runs up toward the battery box. That hose doesn't go anywhere, just sitting there open, been like that since I've owned it. What's the purpose of that? If it doesn't serve a good purpose can I replace with caps?
They are for the carbon (evaporative emissions) canister that fell off your bike many years ago. You can leave it as is if you don't mind the mess, cap them or unscrew the nipples and replace them with 5mm. screws and crush washers. Up to you.
You should plug it with the 5mm and crush washer. Vaccum caps deteriorated pretty fast (from experience) when exposed to the elements.
Fuel lines are ok, no kinks when tank is lowered?
Had these symptoms when a fuel line had semicollapsed,
only letting enough fuel through to idle, stumbling at
takeoff, not accepting throttle when moving.
Quote from: greenmonster on March 17, 2014, 04:43:48 AM
Fuel lines are ok, no kinks when tank is lowered?
Had these symptoms when a fuel line had semicollapsed,
only letting enough fuel through to idle, stumbling at
takeoff, not accepting throttle when moving.
Yes, I ruled that out. Getting plenty of gas to the carbs.
Still waiting on the jets to arrive I assume? Been watching this thread with great interest, you and I have very similar setups.
Quote from: Buck Naked on March 17, 2014, 06:42:19 AM
Still waiting on the jets to arrive I assume? Been watching this thread with great interest, you and I have very similar setups.
Yeah, tracking number says the package will be here tomorrow. I've got everything else squared away, now I just need to throw in the slows and mains and test it out... then rejet and retest, then rejet and retest, then rejet and... you get the picture.
You're running those hi-comps and big bores right? That'll add in the variable of the ignitech for you. I'll be there next winter probably [Dolph]
Quote from: ChrisK on March 17, 2014, 06:55:13 AM
Yeah, tracking number says the package will be here tomorrow. I've got everything else squared away, now I just need to throw in the slows and mains and test it out... then rejet and retest, then rejet and retest, then rejet and... you get the picture.
You're running those hi-comps and big bores right? That'll add in the variable of the ignitech for you. I'll be there next winter probably [Dolph]
I'm not running anything yet...there is a huge pile of parts slowly climbing up the wall in my living room that my wife is thrilled about. :) I'm 1000 miles away earning the cash to pay for it all. I'll be back to put it all together in a few weeks. Hopefully it goes smooth, Aviz from this board is building my engine and Mark @ Ducshop is balancing my crank so the hard stuff is hired out, I'll still have to sort out the jetting and Ignitech and bolt everything together.
Nice, just checked the tracking number again, package is a day ahead of time. Should be able to do the rejetting tonight!
Okay I'm about to tackle my first round of rejetting.
I plan on doing the following:
Air screw: 1 Turn
Fuel screw: 2 Turns
Slow Jets: 55
Needle Clip: 5th Position
Main Jets: 165
The fuel screw sticks through the bottom of the float bowl, correct? Where is the air screw?
Two little blue pills in the gas tank should cure the problem. If it runs for more than four hours you should consult a doctor. ;D
Air screw is accessed through a hole in the bellmouth adapter (where the carb attaches to the airbox rubber).
It's the ones at ~1 O-clock when the carbs are installed.
The fuel screw sticks through the bottom of the float bowl, correct?
Yes.
Speeddog, is that impossible to adjust without taking the airbox off? Or am I just not looking hard enough?
I just got the bike to run!
However I think I went the wrong direction on my slows. Stock was 60, I went to 55. When I'm pulling away from a stop or at zero throttle coming into a corner, the bike stumbles. Then once I get to what I would call 1/4 throttle, she takes off. Does that sound like I need to go back to the 60's or higher? Is there another adjustment I could look at there? I set the fuel screw at 2 turns from the stock 3/4. Air screw still at 1.5.
When I'm cruising at speed, there's a "chirpy" noise from the airbox vicinity. Is that the mating call of the FCR's or is that a too-lean indication?
I have quite a bit of popping on decel. Is that an indication of too rich on the mains and/or needles?
Try opening the fuel screw?
I turned the fuel screws out to 4 turns. That pretty much solved the takeoff from a stop issue. Now it still seems to be stumbling after decel, after I come into a corner off the gas and then try to pick the gas up again.
Still have that chirpy noise going on at cruise.
Does it still pop on decel?
Yes I still have some popping.
I turned the screws back in to 3.5 turns and it made the diving problem a little worse, so I'm thinking I need to go back to a larger slow jet.
While I'm cruising at a steady speed it's stumbling pretty bad. Any time I'm accelerating it's pretty great.
Air screw can be adjusted by taking the airbox top and filter out.
I took a ~6" length of 1/8" weld rod, bent it to an L shape about like an allen wrench.
Then I hammered the end of the long leg flat and filed it to fit in through the hole.
Takes a bit of futzing around to get it right.
Best to remove the airbox and one bellmouth to get the tool right.
You're band-aiding that 1.5 turns air screw by opening the fuel screw to 4.
Get the air screw to 1 turn, and you're likely to end up with the fuel screw near 2 turns.
And likely run better as well...
Here's a diagram to get a feel for what circuit is active where:
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7305/10653764706_dd8304500e_o.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/79721557@N02/10653764706/)
Chris...in one post you say 1 turn on the air screw, then you say 1.5.
which is it?
Quote from: ducpainter on March 17, 2014, 07:05:37 PM
Chris...in one post you say 1 turn on the air screw, then you say 1.5.
which is it?
1.5 turns. In one post I said I had planned on doing 1, but I didn't know where the screw was so I never changed it.
I'm still having trouble adjusting it, Speeddog I have a very narrow flathead that will slide down the tube but I'm having a problem getting it to seat in the head of the screw.
I should also add that while cruising at the same speed, I believe I can hear a pretty consistent popping. If I pull an acceleration, then let off the gas completely, then try and pick it back up again it stumbles and dives.
I went all the way back to zero turns out on the fuel screws and it made it much worse, just an FYI.
I think what Nick is saying is that air screw will eff you at 1.5 turns.
Koko also recommended 1 turn on the air screw IIRC
If you have to take the air box off...so be it.
I just made a tool similar to what Nick described, air screw at 1 turn, going to set the fuel screw at 2 and check it out.
Wow it's amazing how much small changes can make. 1 turn air and two turns fuel. Bike did much better at not stumbling through corners, and a little better at cruising.
There were still a couple moments where I felt some 'dragging' at cruising speed and a slight stumble through a couple turns.
I should also add, I have the idle set at about 1500-1600 RPM's, according to my tach. I had to sit at a light for quite a while and it sounded a couple times like it was gonna die. I never touched the throttle and it kept running though.
I put the fuel screw at 2.5 and it felt a little better.
Sitting at a light this time the bike died at idle.
I should add that it's about 30 degrees F right now, maybe colder.
I think I'm done for the night. I'm curious to see how the bike starts and idles tomorrow after cooling down to my 50 degree garage.
The Keihins are quite sensitive to air temperature, and moderately sensitive to altitude.
I don't know if it's that they don't compensate as well as the CV Mikunis, or they're just a sharper instrument.
You'll need to be a bit richer than what I suggested to run properly below 50 degF.
Try going in on the air screws, 1/8 turn to begin with, so you would be at 7/8 turn.
Then play the fuel screw to find a the best setting.
Then try another 1/8, so you're at 3/4 turn out.
Then play the fuel screw to find a the best setting.
Eventually you should be able to get an idle at 1200 or less.
you may find that a richer idle jet may help, 57's.
Then you'll adjust the air screw and fuel screw to get it running best.
I'm not completely convinced that, for example, the best setting of air and fuel screws with 55 idle jets will be better or worse than the best setting of air and fuel screws with 57 idle jets.
It's going to take a bit of tuning.
Keep in mind, you've got an accelerator pump, so if you're opening the throttle, it's getting more fuel.
You can use that to figure out if richer is better or worse.
I disconnected the accelerator pump on my FCR's for a while to see if they were masking a jetting issue, and just to see what it was like.
It was like back in the day with round-slide Mikunis and no accelerator pump.
As long as you opened the throttle with a tiny bit of finesse, it was fine.
If you whacked it open like a clueless newbie, it'd go flat, then pick up.
I would've left it that way, but it made starting at low temps (for SoCal) difficult, as there's no choke/enrichening circuit.
Quote from: Speeddog on March 17, 2014, 10:20:50 PM
Keep in mind, you've got an accelerator pump, so if you're opening the throttle, it's getting more fuel.
You can use that to figure out if richer is better or worse.
That is good to keep in mind. While I was fiddling with the air screws I twisted the throttle, it was very cool to see the accelerator pump working.
Sounds like you need the 58 slow jets. You might find yourself back with 60s and wondering why you bought the extra jets. They're not wasred though.
In theory, you are close with your slow fuel jet when your IMS is between 1 to 2 turns out for best idle. Also your slow air jet screw is theoretically correct 3/4 to 2 turns out. Thats according to the FCR bible by Patrick Burns (informative and entertaining). That's the theory anyway.
You know you are correct when you dont have to have an extreme setting on one adjustment to overcompensate for an incorrect setting somewhere else. Examples of this are too small an air screw setting or the IMS turned out too far because of too small a slow fuel jet.
Just a related line of thinking, I tuned a 900 with FCR39s, that went from 62s with V cams to needing 58s with 900 ie cams. It's making me wonder about the W cams. I need to ask Chris Kelley if the 60 slow jet in FCRs is a SUDCO setting or based on what Pongo needed when it had W heads. Maybe he might see the thread and chime in.
I'm going to try it out again today. It's 20 degrees warmer than it was last night when I was testing, so I may actually be right where I need to be.
If I'm not, I may try switching back to my original 60 slow jets, and tweaking from there. If that seems too rich then you're right Koko, I may need to order 57's or 58's, whatever they come in.
I still haven't had an opportunity to cruise at highway speeds. I've ran it up that far, but it wasn't exactly legal... [evil] I'd like to get on a highway, cruise along, and see how it performs. As well as how it decelerates and pulls from highway cruising speed.
Screwed the air screws in an 1/8 turn. Bike immediately started at push of button after a slight twist of the throttle. Stayed idling too.
Ran alright across town to lunch, but when I got here and was backing into a parking spot, it died on me at idle.
Edit: Yeah it's still not running great. Will die at idle, seems like after the bike is warm? Still feel some stumbling at cruising speed.
This is the thing I'm worried most about: Seems like when I take off from a stop there is a pretty bad vibration from the bike and a rattle noise from the air box vicinity. What does that mean?
I've never seen anyone have this much trouble getting FCR's to behave reasonably well out of the box. Bike ran good before?
Yeah, it's getting pretty frustrating for a $900+ investment.
Yes, the bike was running good before the FCR's, but I've had so much bad luck with it, some caused by me some not. Right before winter the rectifier went bad, that's been replaced. Over winter I lightened the flywheel. When I put it back in to test (before FCR's) I made a mistake reinstalling the starter clutch. The bike ran beautifully before that mistake showed it's face. That's all been fixed since. Most recent was the first half of this thread: broken wire at the ignition pickup and then me having to reset the timing.
After work today I tried the following setup:
6th needle clip
165's
55's
4 turns fuel
7/8 turn air
Okay results, but still died at idle after being warm. Also a friend said he smelled a rich smell while riding behind me taking off from an intersection, and maybe once in the highway.
My most recent try:
4th needle position
165's
52's
2 turns fuel
1 turn air
The bike didn't die at idle, but idle didn't sound very good either. Very choppy. At highway speed there's still that raspy, whistly noise from the airbox. Cruising at 35 in 3rd gear I can consistently feel a hiccup in the performance.
I still have that very fast vibration right when I takeoff. It happens very noticeably in 1st at the point of dropping the clutch, and I can feel it a little going from 1st to 2nd. It's very brief, but it's there and it feels terrible.
Please, anyone have suggestions?
Off the top of my head, stop changing 4 things at once.
Change one setting at a time, and see what it does.
Write down the settings, change one thing, write down the results.
Then try another change, continue writing it down as you go.
And I don't think leaner is the direction you should go.
Speeddog is right, one change at a time.
I believe that rich smell your buddy noticed is the No#6 needle position (oh and 4 turns out on the idle mixture with a rich SAJ setting). Sheesh, one change at a time ;D.
Ok, go back to a baseline and change only one thing at a time from there (after this ;D).
Try this setting and only change one aspect after that, remembering to write it down.
Keep the 165 mains
#5 on the needle
try 1 1/2 turns on the slow air jet screw
Try your 60 slow fuel jet.
1 turn out on the Idle Mixture Screw
Write it down.
Now we need to settle on the Slow Fuel Jet, and we will know by your idle mixture setting. Try and tune the idle only with that idle mixture screw. Go for the fastest, strongest idle and let us know how many turns out it takes. One turn is a 360 degree turn by the way.
So have a coffee break (or stiff drink) away from the bike and start with a fresh mind.
Only try to tune the idle for the fastest, strongest idle and tell us what happened. Don't even ride the bike yet, just idle tuning. Warm the bike up and go for the fastest idle, then if it goes over 1250, set it to 1250 with the idle speed cable and then keep tuning to get it the fastest, strongest idle until it's as good as it gets. Only the idle mixture screw . Hey, leave that air jet screw alone! [laugh] Try and improve the idle speed until you can't, only using the idle mixture screw, resetting it to 1250 on the idle speed knob if you get it higher. Oi! don't touch the needle! [laugh].
Tell us how many turns out and anything that was noteworthy or strange.
About the noise, FCRs twitter even though I don't tweet (too old). A harsh raspy, higher pitched noise and high frequency vibration can mean too lean somewhere and a gluggy, lower frequency, dull vibration can mean too rich. Reading them and where they are in the rev range is the trick without getting confused. But just so you know, FCRs sound like four and twenty blackbirds twittering away under load.
As you can tell, we have done this before and learned the hard way [bang] ;).
every fcr bike i've had has run happily with the idle mixture screw full in. they idle much richer than i normally set things up, so i had to give up using the gas analyser and going 5% co.
they can also be a little lean on the needle root diameter. try using an ems or emr needle.
I changed needles in the end. I got hold of both EMR and EMS needles and used the richer of the two. I didn't need to with other bikes that weren't ported which was a relief. My mate did a great job porting the heads which made them very efficient requiring a 50 slow jet (maybe 48) in the end, but with a richer root diameter for the transition to the needle taper.
I know of another guy that needed another needle in the states, it may have been Juniorvarsity.
Hard to know with these W heads, but gotta start somewhere.
Quote from: brad black on March 19, 2014, 04:15:21 AM
every fcr bike i've had has run happily with the idle mixture screw full in.
Definitely with the 60 slow jets they come with ime, usually too rich. Only dealt with a handful of 900V motors. I want to see what happens when the IMS is adjusted and if the Slow Fuel Jet needs changing without other circuits like the needle or Slow Air jet Screw being involved. Curious too as to the requirements of the W heads.
But one step at a time.
Thank you all.
I have a rainy day here so I think it will actually be a good day to tackle this... after work... :'(
I will try the baseline setting Koko described above, and try to tune the idle to be its most efficient, then go from there. Documenting every change.
This is similar advice to what I found on this tutorial by Patric Burns: http://www.factorypro.com/tech/tech_tuning_procedures/tuning_FCR_Burns,Pat.html (http://www.factorypro.com/tech/tech_tuning_procedures/tuning_FCR_Burns,Pat.html)
Yep, that's the bible that one. He's a good guy.
Quote from: koko64 on March 19, 2014, 06:30:09 AM
Yep, that's the bible that one. He's a good guy.
Unfortunately much of that tutorial is written with the assumption that you have access to a Dyno.
The beginning of it confuses me a bit, because he says that tuning will go much faster if you follow his 5 steps which are:
1. Main Jet and Main Air Jet
2. Needle
3. Slow Fuel and Air Jets
4. Fuel Screw
5. Accelerator Pump
But then he goes on to begin his tutorial by addressing synchronizing and the fuel screw first?
I forgot to post this a while back, but does this look like a rich plug to you guys?
(http://i842.photobucket.com/albums/zz345/chriskuecker/E8149365-3F02-481A-97A8-198627F076B9_zpsmscp4kob.jpg) (http://s842.photobucket.com/user/chriskuecker/media/E8149365-3F02-481A-97A8-198627F076B9_zpsmscp4kob.jpg.html)
Yep, rich. You need to get the main correct first or nothing else will be correct. Proper wide open throttle full load operation tells you this is correct. Next comes needle because that is your part throttle operation. Slow fuel and air have a lot to do with transition from idle to part throttle. My guess, since I have not read what he wrote is fuel and synch first because how are you going to run it on the dyno if you can't get it to idle? Then back to idle when you get everything else correct.
Have you done a compression check, valve clearance, checked for vacuum leaks and checked for proper timing yet? This is a must!
Quote from: howie on March 19, 2014, 12:56:15 PM
My guess, since I have not read what he wrote is fuel and synch first because how are you going to run it on the dyno if you can't get it to idle? Then back to idle when you get everything else correct.
Have you done a compression check, valve clearance, checked for vacuum leaks and checked for proper timing yet? This is a must!
That makes sense.
In an earlier post I stated I don't have the proper fitting to do compression. I have the gauge, just not the part that screws into the cylinder, working on that. Valve clearances are good. No vacuum leaks. Timing set.
Okay, I just tried 5th needle clip, 165's, 60's, 1 turn out on fuel, and 1.5 turns out air.
It was pretty good, actually. I believe the main jets are pretty well sorted out. It pulled well to 100 mph in 5th gear into a 25-30 mph head wind.
There are a couple of things I would like to sort out. First, I still have that sharp vibration while taking off from a stop. Second, it didn't quite feel as smooth as possible cruising with no changes to throttle. Finally, it didn't die at idle, but it didn't sound good.
I'm going to adjust the fuel screws according to Burns' tutorial, then take it on another ride and report back.
Okay so I initially went a half and then 1 turn out on the fuel screws while it was idling and it seemed to be worse. So I screwed them all the way in to see if it would stay running. It did and it seemed to idle faster. I took it for a quick ride and while stopped at a light it did idle much better.
However, I still have the quick vibration and now it was lagging at throttle pickup pretty bad. What I mean by that is coming into a turn at no throttle, then when I tried to pickup the throttle it dove on me. To me that says too lean. I'm going to give half a turn out a try.
Okay tried the half turn out. Pretty good idle, but I think it was worse than the idle with then all the way in. I still had the sharp vibration. It was still diving on pickup, but it was slightly better.
The interesting variable to that is I keep forgetting its 33 degrees outside right now. 20 degree difference from yesterday, and potential 20 degree difference from tomorrow.
According to Burns, if you're more than a turn in on fuel mixture to get your best idle, it's time to try a different slow fuel jet. I believe I am so I'm thinking I might need to order 57's, the middle ground to the next size smaller I have at 55's. Additionally, the slow air screw affects performance at higher revs and from closed to 1/10th throttle. That closed to 1/10 is where I feel like I'm having problems right now. So maybe if after dialing in the next size down in slow jets the problem still persists, I'll fiddle with the air screws.
What do you guys think?
Yes
Sort the idle slow jet by trying the 58/57 and get the ims in spec of 1-2 turns and idling strong with good low speed/cruising running. Maybe back to 55 if needed, but see first with the 57/58.
When thats sorted, then fine tune with the SAJ screw. Keep an eye on plug colors.
Needle and MJ require experience and/or dynos. MJ to be legal requires dyno or some educated guessing and using other folks data from dyno tests.
Pardon my spelling, I was checking in on the phone.
The needle and MJ must be quite close to leave for awhile. How close was speeddog right up? [thumbsup] Buy him a drink. ;D That saved a lot of trouble for sure.
Good on you, you are getting there.
Once that idle is sorted, and slow jet with it, the trickiest part of the circuit. The area where the slow fuel jet, slow air jet, needle root diameter and IMS (and even the needle pos-n to an extent) all overlap; the 1/8 to 1/4ish throttle transition and the trailing throttle you mentioned.
Very fine tuning of the SAJ screw can fix this if you have the slow fuel jet and IMS correct, and also have the correct needle root diameter Brad mentioned. I had to change my needle because no amount of tuning this area was 100% to my satisfaction and I tuned around it to about 90% and rode that for months. But the 10% was breaking my balls [laugh]. I suspect some people would be fine with that but I knew it was there.
It is unlikely you will need to change your needle with a pretty stock motor. I agree with Howie that the plug looked rich and that probably means going to the 58s or 55s. Howie is also correct that it's good to be sure of your motor's overall condition in case some anomaly creates a tuning problem that sends you on a wild goose chase. He was very Miyagi San reminding us to not forget the fundamentals. ;D you'll end up with 58s and a more open SAJ or 55s and the SAJ a little more closed (probably).
The thing about the SAJ screw is that you can adjust it to suit your own taste and riding style, and not just for it's interaction with the slow circuit. The SAJ screw lets you fine tune that tricky area, but it also allows you to opt for smooth Vs snappy response off a closed throttle. There can be some personal preference with this.
Quote from: koko64 on March 19, 2014, 07:51:51 PM
Im concentrating on the IMS, SJ & SAJ as you can test them at legal speeds. Needle and MJ on tne highway when overtaking can be done to a certain extent if you are experienced or prepared to p,ay.
Is that in response to my post about running it up past 100? Or did you not see that one?
Either way, I live in flatland Illinois, there are hundreds of long, straight, flat, no-traffic roads surrounding me. It's normally an unfortunate thing. But for testing mains it's alright. Wish I had access to a dyno though.
I was on the small phone, I'm on the laptop now. You have the room to sort the latter jetting for sure. I have to use a dyno where I live, or get tazered and bike crushed :o I have a mile and a half long and very steep mountain road that would be a great dyno, if I was so inclined.
Luckily, the tricky circuits are in the lower speeds and transitional throttle range.
More bad news. Took the bike out, 20 degrees warmer today and it ran like crap. Felt the whole time like I was dropping a cylinder, so I immediately checked the plugs when I got back to my garage:
(http://i842.photobucket.com/albums/zz345/chriskuecker/CC6ABA3E-86C7-4BDA-B922-7193704FF34D_zpsmbzf8zy8.jpg) (http://s842.photobucket.com/user/chriskuecker/media/CC6ABA3E-86C7-4BDA-B922-7193704FF34D_zpsmbzf8zy8.jpg.html)
What do you guys think the problem is? The carbs are tuned exactly the same, and I've even put a manometer on the intakes and gotten good synchronization readings.
Does this look like an electrical problem to you guys? No spark in one cylinder? Way back at the beginning of this thread I didn't have spark in the vertical cylinder. Now the horizontal cylinder is the one that looks rich. Or do you think the horizontal got fouled and so it turned out drenched in black like that?
I NEED TO ADD, I THINK THE PROBLEM GOT WORSE THE LONGER I RODE.
The fouled (black) plug...powdery, oily or wet and smells of gasoline?
Quote from: howie on March 20, 2014, 11:44:32 AM
The fouled (black) plug...powdery, oily or wet and smells of gasoline?
I smelled it when I pulled it out and I thought it smelled like gas. Yeah I guess I would call it wet before I called it powdery or oily.
I ran out of time before I could check for spark. Had to be somewhere.
I have spark on both cylinders but one seems visibly brighter than the other. The duller spark has a purple tint to it while the brighter one looks more white.
EDIT: put fresh plugs in and their spark is the same. Any guesses on why I fouled a plug? Current setup is 165 mains, 60 slows, 1/2 fuel, and 1 1/2 air.
Switched to 155 mains thinking it was richening everything, bike wouldn't even idle. I'm going to now switch to 160's and see what happens.
ANDDDDD half of my main jet just twisted off inside the carb. GREAT.
I guess I got pretty lucky. I was able to push a small screwdriver into the end of the broken piece and get it to screw out.
Back to 165's I guess. Any suggestions?
I'd suggest figuring out why you have a weak spark before you drive yourself nuts make the beast with two backsing with jets.
A few posts ago I said I went and bought two new plugs. Their sparks look the same now.
I believe when I was getting a weak spark it was because that plug was way fouled. But maybe I'm wrong?
Quote from: ChrisK on March 20, 2014, 03:40:43 PM
A few posts ago I said I went and bought two new plugs. Their sparks look the same now.
I believe when I was getting a weak spark it was because that plug was way fouled. But maybe I'm wrong?
A few posts or pages?
Could be...
did you swap plugs from lead to lead to see if the issue changed to the other plug
I guess what I'm getting at is you've had a few different things going on since you started jetting.
You really need to make sure all the ancillary issues are resolved before you drive yourself nuts...including a compression test.
Anyone know the thread of our plugs, I'll try and get my hands on the right compression fitting.
DP, I switched the old plugs' wires and the spark followed the plug, not the wire. New plugs create equal-looking spark. So I think that's resolved.
Quote from: ChrisK on March 20, 2014, 03:58:53 PM
Anyone know the thread of our plugs, I'll try and get my hands on the right compression fitting.
I believe it's 14x1.25.
I'm positive of the pitch. Check the diameter with your calipers.
I cannot believe that between three auto parts stores and a hardware store I can't find the right fitting for this.
Hey everyone, just found out about this thread. Been so busy lately, I don't get to troll forums any more. :P
Quote from: ChrisK on March 13, 2014, 08:43:05 AM
A question I just thought about sitting here: The FCR's came with a small fuel filter at the end of about 6 inches of fuel line. You take your existing fuel line and hook it up to the upstream end of that filter. Is it necessary to have both your original filter and that smaller filter? Could that be problematic?
I added those after we got lots of complaints of the FCRs overflowing into peoples' engines. Old fuel systems shed tiny bits of plastic-bag-like stuff which gets caught in the needle float valve and prevents the needle from closing on the seat. Started adding the filters and no more calls about flooded engines.
Quote from: ChrisK on March 10, 2014, 06:25:17 PM
I don't think the clearances on the timing pick ups would have changed since I didn't take them off their bracket, and I reinstalled the bracket exactly as it was before.
I've only done like 4 or 5 carb'd flywheels, but that is absolutely a wrong assumption. There's way too much play with the plate's mounts to the engine case to get repeatability.
Quote from: Speeddog on March 11, 2014, 01:00:06 PM
Setting the 'gap' of the triggers:
(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2253/13089842745_3153a9960f_c.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/79721557@N02/13089842745/)
Whenever making any adjustments to the plate the pickups are on, you need to iteratively perform the above procedure until both pickups measure 0.027", rotating the engine back and forth.
You cannot adjust the front one then adjust the back one and call it done. You have to then re-check the front one (and it will be off).
My experience was having to go back and forth readjusting BOTH 3 or 4 times until both will measure 0.027" with the nuts fully tightened. I remember once or twice it wasn't so bad and I also remember it being maddeningly difficult and wondering if I was ever going to get them both close enough.
The very last time ever I have messed with one of these plates was a decade ago when I did the full 100hp recipe for a customer. I adjusted the timing 4 or 5 times trying to find the right balance of starting but able to still run. Ignitech saved my butt on that one.
Quote from: ducpainter on March 12, 2014, 03:02:33 PM
My experience with the boxes is either they work or don't. I never had one that was making a spark cause any issues.
I've seen them idle ok and then go away as they advance. But it was pretty obvious on the timing light. Also, the bad one idled more weakly than normal and that cylinder's header pipe wouldn't immediately "steam off" when we sprayed water at it. With good ignition, it's difficult to see any damp spots on the pipe when you use a spray bottle on it.
Quote from: Speeddog on March 18, 2014, 08:26:09 PM
Off the top of my head, stop changing 4 things at once.
Change one setting at a time, and see what it does.
Write down the settings, change one thing, write down the results.
Then try another change, continue writing it down as you go.
THIS. I read all twelve pages and frankly have cringed more than a few times.
Quote from: ducpainter on March 11, 2014, 06:21:02 AM
Ca-Cycleworks jets for a basically stock intake set-up if I'm not mistaken. Small changes in configuration can make a difference, so every bike can benefit from some tweaking...some benefit more than others and some need different jets.
The Sudco baseline setting we use assumes aftermarket mufflers and you cut the airbox lid.
Where the "small changes" come into play however, is that I've seen bigger differences bike-to-bike than individual mods. The fact FCR's baseline works so well rests in that each carb is basically on a nice big dirtbike engine. Lots of flow and really high velocity through the intake port.
Quote from: ChrisK on March 11, 2014, 09:43:51 AM
I understand one jetting setup isn't all encompassing for these bikes, or any for that matter. What I'm saying is that in my order notes, when purchased from Ca-Cycleworks, I specified that my bike was a 98 900 with W heads, had on open air box with K&N filter, ExactFit coils, and really free-flowing slip-ons. I was under the assumption Cycleworks would take into account the details I gave them and jet my carbs with those details in mind. Too much to ask I guess.
Yes, too much to ask because impossible to deliver.
The last time I was personally involved with a bike where mentioning all mods would make a difference was when the Kawasaki ZX6R first came out. The "big four" makes their bikes amazingly consistent. Muzzys figured out the exact thing to make an all-stock zx6r run awesome with their pipe and it was simple stuff like shim up the needles with washers and drill out the slide vent holes with a specific sized drill bit.
Ducatis are all over the map. IMHO, the big thing with the 90s era heads is that curved intake port. It acts like a huge restrictor and sets a standard for the flow through the engine. Those are all hand ported and I believe some engines get a little more or less love and will need the TLC after putting on FCRs.
Another aspect we don't see a lot is how well Ducatis run when things badly set up. Stuff we all assume is perfect like on pongo when the cams were timed 10 ~ 12° different from each other. Ducati's genious is actually how well their bikes work with sloppy tolerances and how the engine just doesn't care and keeps making us happy. This is exhibited in how well the FCRs work for people with the baseline Sudco and Pro Italia came up with 23 years ago.
Quote from: ChrisK on March 14, 2014, 06:53:20 AM
I ended up going with OEM equivalents from a company called Jets-R-Us in Missouri. $3.19 for the mains and $4.67 for the slows. Brought the total to $47~. That's much easier to swallow.
BTW, we have jets if you ask. We don't list them on the site because it tends to make people want to change too many things.
Quote from: koko64 on March 18, 2014, 07:22:10 AM
Just a related line of thinking, I tuned a 900 with FCR39s, that went from 62s with V cams to needing 58s with 900 ie cams. It's making me wonder about the W cams. I need to ask Chris Kelley if the 60 slow jet in FCRs is a SUDCO setting or based on what Pongo needed when it had W heads. Maybe he might see the thread and chime in.
Actually, pongo never got the dual FCRs. He went from mikunis on an all stock engine to the full-on 966 build with single FCRs, which use a wholly different baseline.
Quote from: koko64 on March 10, 2014, 06:40:40 PM
NGK 9s are generally too cold, but the Exactfit coils are pretty hot if you got 'em and they can work. (Check with Chris Kelley).
60 slow jets are often too rich, add a too cold plug and you'll have fouled plugs and sluggish performance.
I was (and am) a staunch believer of the D8EA. They worked awesome on stock bikes like my ex's 900ss/cr and m900ie that she put 45k+ miles on each. They worked killer in my 900ss, `96 916, pongo, and my S2R800. They work killer with the Dyna coils that we used to sell, too. Non resistor plugs have been shown to consistently add 1 hp over their resistor equivalents.
Allegedly compatible plugs are the DP8EA-9, DPR8EA-9, DCPR8E. The P means projected insulator. What that means is the tip sticks out further in the combustion chamber. Once I talked to someone and found out high comp pistons can bump them and close the gap, I quit using the P type plugs.
Of all the snake-oil stuff I tried in the 90s on my 900ss, dyna coils, new wires, and non-resistor platinum plugs "felt" the best.
When we had the ExactFit coils made for us, they actually made the coils too powerful and then we could actually observe the wives tales about heat range, suppression wires, and resistor plugs. The dyna coils worked great with the stranded wires and D8EA plugs. :P So we ship our coils with the DR9EA. I normally advise folks to not change the coils at the same time as making other big changes. There have been a couple people where for whatever reason, our coils just won't work on their bike. I carefully diagnosed a few of these situations, too.
OH... well there went a couple hours... back to the salt mine!
Chris
Thanks Chris
We know you're busy, so it was good of you to chip in. Always wondered about Pongo.
Cheers
I appreciate you taking the time to write all that out, I really do.
That said, do you have any suggestions for getting me back on a running motorcycle? The Sudco settings didn't even get me down the street.
I understand I still need to check compression. But until I get my hands on the fitting, can we just assume I have good compression for the sake of conversation? After all, I went 110 mph into a 20 mph headwind yesterday.
Did it have any more to give?
Quote from: ChrisK on March 20, 2014, 05:07:29 PM
I appreciate you taking the time to write all that out, I really do.
That said, do you have any suggestions for getting me back on a running motorcycle? The Sudco settings didn't even get me down the street.
I understand I still need to check compression. But until I get my hands on the fitting, can we just assume I have good compression for the sake of conversation? After all, I went 110 mph into a 20 mph headwind yesterday.
I couldn't keep up with the changes. :P
Can you re-post the info where you're at currently? Ie, what are the bike's mods? And can you write up the end of your logbook of changes and effects? Then with your current configuration? When I last went through this, here's an example:
| Main | Clip | s-a screw | effect |
| 155 | 3 | 1-1/2 | ---- |
| 160 | 3 | 1-1/2 | 3rd gear, 6000+ rpm better |
It's really really tough for me to sift through posts and retain any info from one to next. I'm quite visual and after getting my face kicked in setting up the 2 servers over the last week, my brain is about worthless.
That was in 5th gear, and it was starting to feel a little sketchy to be going that fast in those conditions at night. Maybe, but not too much more I don't think. Should it?
If that was 5th you're probably close.
Answer Chris's questions and ignore me for now.
He might actually have some useful info.
Chris, of course. This thread has been incredibly long, I'm surprised most are still hanging around : )
I will get in front of a computer in a bit so I can carefully type out where I'm at. Might be an hour or two though.
Okay, here's a summary of what's been covered in this thread, leading up to the present. I'll number "major" events to try and make it easier on the eyes. Anyone who's been paying attention, if I miss something important, please let us know.
First, my bike: 98 M900 W-Heads. FCR41's, ExactFit Coils, DCPR8E's, open air box with K&N, OEM headers, Danmoto slip-ons (very free-flowing).
1. Tried to go for the first ride of the spring, bike wouldn't let me take off in gear. Eventually discovered I didn't have spark in one cylinder. Traced that back to a broken wire at the ignition pickup.
2. Went through a whole ordeal getting the timing reset. I believe it is within OEM spec right now. Dots were lined up with the lines on the pickups, WHILE the motor was at TDC. The pickups were set with a .6mm gap from the flywheel lump.
3. Spark plugs replaced with DCPR9E's based on advice of people here. Bike still wouldn't let me get rolling. Very hard to blame jetting at this point because the FCR's were brand new from Ca-Cycleworks and most importantly, over the winter I had my hands on a lot of different things. I lightened the flywheel and had an error putting the starter clutch back in, leading to that, it's bearing, and a couple other parts getting replaced. I had the clutch pack out, adjusted one valve back into spec, replaced timing belts, and that's about it.
4. Blamed fuel delivery. Bypassed vacuum petcock and OEM pump straight to the carbs. No go. Manual petcock has been installed and OEM pump appears to be working.
5. Only thing left seems to be jetting. So I start in on that. I will skip a lot of the different configurations I tried early on because, as so many have taken the time to note, I was changing too many variables at once. I've got 7 or 8 jetting configurations written down from what I remembered, but no notes with them. I will start listing the jetting configurations that I made notes on, per everyone's advice. There are some crazy variables, so pay attention! ;D
6. 165 mains. 60 slows. 5th needle position. 1 turn out on fuel screw. 1.5 turns out on air screw.
Used this as a baseline to start with based off someone's suggestion. Bike idled rough but didn't die. Sharp vibration felt right when disengaging the clutch in 1st gear. Cruising speeds (constant throttle) didn't deliver a completely smooth feeling. Accelerated to above 100 mph in 5th gear into a 20+mph headwind.
7. Only thing changed: 0 turns out on fuel screw.
A little better idle. Still has that sharp vibration. Was 'diving' on throttle pickup. So when I was at zero throttle coming into a corner, then tried to pickup the throttle a little, the bike would dive on me then resume power.
8. Only thing changed: .5 turns out on fuel screw.
Alright idle, not as good as number 7 above. Still has the vibration, slightly worse than number 7. Dives on throttle pickup but got a little better.
9. The previous three steps were done while it was 33 degrees F outside. I decided I would call it a night, and try it out the next day in the 50 degree weather. Which brings us to today. This is where things get crazy and stupid.
10. So I go home at lunch to get the bike out. Start riding and the bike is sounding pretty bad. The longer I ride the worse it gets, feels a lot like I'm dropping a cylinder then picking it back up again. Barely hobble home. Take the spark plugs out, one is black and one looks normal-ish. Theories about why start swirling. I go through three more jetting changes, that I have detailed notes for. I don't need to write those hear, I'll tell you why soon enough. At one point I'm trying to screw on a 160 main jet and the thing snaps in half inside the carb. Got lucky and got that out free of drama. People are telling me I really need to check my compression so I've been all over town looking for the right fitting to do so buck can't find it anywhere.
11. So finally. I decide to take the float bowls off to check to see if I have a stuck float. Don't think I do but what the heck, can't hurt.......
..... This is the latest news that no one else has heard: I pull the float bowls out, look down, and the slow jets are laying in the bottom of the bowls. They had come unscrewed and were just laying there. [bang]
So that is why all the jetting changes I've made this afternoon since fouling that plug mean absolutely nothing. [shot] What makes that happen?
12. 165 mains. 55 slows. 5th needle position. 1 turn out on fuel screw. 1.5 turns out air screw.
Bike started right up. Revs would "hang up" when I revved it in neutral. So I backed the fuel screws out to 1.5. Better but still hung up a bit. Backed them out to 2. Sounded better so I took it for a test ride. Started off pretty good getting down my street. Got out onto a 45 mph road and it was hiccuping quite a bit, not running very smooth. Idling fairly well. Seemed like power was good when I opened the throttle up, but cruising seemed to be problematic.
13. Your turn. ;D
Leaving work now. Need to buy steel reserve and some bulleit rye on way home to try and answer. ;D
Not sure why the slow jets fell out, but I'd wager that you didn't get 'em tight enough.
Perhaps you were interrupted while working on the carbs?
Don't overdo it, they're small brass parts.
As I understand it, you've got two reasonable-performing combinations:
6. 165 mains. 60 slows. 5th needle position. 1 turn out on fuel screw. 1.5 turns out on air screw.
12-A. 165 mains. 55 slows. 5th needle position. 2 turns out on fuel screw. 1.5 turns out air screw.
Those two are not so far apart.
Pick one of those, and from what you're describing, my thoughts are to make adjustments to the air screw, 1/8 turn at a time.
I can't over-emphasize it.
Be methodical, make one change at a time, write down the effects.
Try to keep the environmental part of it the same, so you may need to restrict your testing to roughly the same time of day.
I've found that the overlap of the effective zones of needle clip/air screw/fuel screw makes it a bit of a drawn-out process.
Wow, fell out. Never heard of that. That'll richen it up ;D.
At least thats a red herring to ignore.
Nearly there. [thumbsup]
my thoughts., ignore as desired
don't discount the impact of needle root diameter on a roll on issue.
tune the pilot jet for idle only. everything above idle is mixture screw, air screw and needle root diameter.
try to keep the mixture screw and air screw close to as delivered / 1 turn out area.
i always use resistor plugs too [laugh]
Thank you, you three, for staying tuned in!
Speeddog, point taken, be methodical. [beer]
Brad, I don't think I'd ever choose to ignore your advice. [beer]
So, since it seems that for proper idle with 60 slows, I have to use zero or less turns on the fuel screw, and with 55 slows I have to use two or more turns... I am going to go ahead and order 58's. Those seem like they'll be the proper middle ground I need, right?
From what I've been hearing from everyone, the pilot jets only really affect idle, correct? Unless of course they make the beast with two backsing fall out... So, while I'm waiting for those jets, is it safe for me to address the performance at cruising throttle? I know that's not perfectly methodical, but if the pilots only affect idle, I don't see why it would be a problem.
So, assuming I go with Speeddog's advice of toying with the air screws 1/8 at a time, my first inclination is to turn them out, leaning out the mixture. I say this because I believe I hear some popping at cruising speed, which would be caused by a rich mixture. Also, just spitballing, what about needle position? I know Brad said to not count out root diameter. This isn't root diameter but what if I tried the 4th needle position instead of the 5th, thus leaning out the mixture at that 1/4 to 3/4 throttle 'cruising' range?
Brad, a few posts back you suggested maybe trying an EMR or EMS needle instead of the stock EMT. Doing that would make the root diameter smaller. Does that mean richer operation?
I know I know, I'll only change one thing at a time. But what do you guys think?
Looking at the typical chart (http://ca-cycleworks.com/c/instructions/fcr/fcr_needles.pdf) to contemplate needles and ChrisK's description, I ended up reworking the graph to focus solely on the needle selection for the Ducati dual FCRs:
(http://ca-cycleworks.com/c/instructions/fcr/emt_needles.png)
The area you're trying to affect at is the transition from the diameter to the L1/clip region. You're pulling up the needle via the clip to add gas there.
I agree with Brad, try EMS needles.
Do not even think about EMR. Needles make a big change and you do not want to ever skip steps in that table.
God. Finally got ahold of the proper compression fitting... 40 psi in one and 50 psi in the other. Aren't they supposed to be 140ish?
make the beast with two backs. Why not right?
Ducatis never really do compression tests well. Squirt in some WD40 and hold the throttle all the way open.
That'll be a day or two now, I had to borrow the correct fitting. Of course Ducatis don't do compression tests well.
With all the modifications to my M900, the EMT needle was fine until I really started messing with the airbox. I had to go to the EMR after adding a litre of capacity, modifying the velocity stacks and raising the filter. Making the airbox bigger really changed everything.
Dunno what to expect with the W motor. I'd like to see what 58 slow jets and some tweaking of the SAJ screw does before changing needles.
Certainly be interesting to see.
Wide open throttle and four complete revolutions, warm engine.
How did you go?
What compression reading you get?
Looking forward to see how many turns of the IMS you need with 58 slow fuel jets.
It's a good test of the theory.
I was busy all day yesterday and the place I borrowed the tester from is closed today so I won't be able to look at it till tomorrow.
When I originally tested I didn't hold the throttle wide open, only got about 40-50psi.
Okay that's better. Warm motor, little squirt of WD-40, throttle wide open resulted in 150 psi in one cylinder and 155 in the other.
Whew.
Should add in here that I'm still waiting on jets. I ended up not ordering until yesterday, but I went with Ca-Cycleworks this time. They were $4 cheaper than Jets-R-Us for the assortment I needed, so kudos to them.
I have 58 slows, and EMS needles on their way, as well as that 160 main that I snapped in half, just so I have a pair.
At least you have a range of tuning parts to throw in the tackle box for your future mods.
[popcorn]
lol, I literally have them in a tackle box too.
Yep, a 8x12 for FCR jets, a 6x4 for CV carb jets, a 6x4 for Mikuni flatslide jets, etc [thumbsup]
Those compression numbers are pretty awesome.
Quote from: chris on March 26, 2014, 11:27:09 AM
Those compression numbers are pretty awesome.
That's good to hear. Now hopefully I can get it tuned right.
Subscribed
Chris at CA-Cycleworks sent me this link. I too just installed a set of 41mm FCR's on my '97 900SS and I am having similar issues.
Baseline.
Bought the bike about 2 months ago
Was having some strange running problems when holding a steady highway speed as well as some lugging/popping/backfire when pulling away from stops. Figured it was time for emulsion tubes. Previous owner had said it had a Factory Pro jet kit installed a couple of hundred miles back. That always scares me to hear. I actually prefer stock jets in stock bikes. A lot of "kits" just don't get it right. I also have to ask, "why did you do the kit years after you bought the bike". Was about to plop down the $200 or so and order all new jets and tubes when I found a great set of FCR41's used at a great price. As always, ad said used less than 50 miles. Another red flag. When I removed the airbox, I found a missing screw in the CV cover. Guess why it ran poorly? Lol. So I spent $700 on new carbs instead of a 15 cent screw.
Got the carbs installed. Put the filter I got from Cycleworks right in front of the carbs. Tried to fire up bike. Spin the engine over several different times and it just wouldn't catch. A quick spray of ether and it fired right up and idled around 1,000. Seems really nice.
Next day I put everything else back together and get it fired up. Warm up the bike. Twist the throttle, instant death. Hit start button, it fires right up. Twist the throttle open, I hear a small pop and the motor stops dead. What I find is that if I crack open the throttle, at exactly 2,300 the engine just quits. If I feather up the throttle it gets to 3k and just screams all the way to the end as it should.
Rolled to the street and I can't just roll away. I can hold in the clutch, feather up the throttle, and double clutch away. Once I'm up and running the thing pulls clean and like a freight train. First time around the block it was trying to pull the front wheel. At stop signs it would die if I didn't feather it coming up to the sign and hold it at 4k hole shot starting position.
Got home and double checked all previous settings. Slow screw was at 2 and fuel was at around 31/2 to 4 ( I quit counting when it was that many) set fuel to 3/4 and air to 11/2 as ducatitech and Cycleworks paper said to do. Not really a change.
Read some thoughts on the pages here, set it to 1 on the slow and 2 on fuel, not any different.
I can tell you the bike will not idle higher than 1,200. I've checked that my return line has fuel flowing back to the tank. I've watched fuel flowing through the new clear filter without it running dry.
Bike is set up with an older K&N filter without a lid. Has the aftermarket alloy frame. Battery is holding 13v. Spark at both plugs. staintune exhaust cans. Was running a week ago. I can see the potential. I just need the very bottom end sorted. At this point I do not know what jets are installed but previous owner mentioned not having changed them from Sudco. Unless Sudco installed custom jetting from a customer profile. There is a backfire in the carbs at 2,300-2,500 when it kills. I can kill it every time cracking open the throttle. I've read that this is possible due to the pumping action of the diaphragm but mine would get you killed on the road so I don't think it's quite as the write up described.
Make sure that alloy filter frame is actually holding the filter down firmly to the airbox.
If it's floating around leaking air one second then sealing up the next second, you'll drive yourself crazy trying to jet it.
Open up the carbs and find out what jets are in it.
And confirm that all jets are clean and clear, especially the pilot jet.
Make sure there's no ring of gummy varnish on the needle.
If the carbs were used once, then left sitting on a shelf with half a bowl full of gas for 6 months, they could be gummed up.
As an FYI to all readers, in this context of carburetors, "confirm clean and clear" means remove the jet, visually inspect with a magnifying glass if necessary.
It does not mean remove the float bowl, spray with carb cleaner, and call it good.
And of course because its today and not yesterday, and probably because I complained in a thread, the bike runs much better.
If I whack the throttle open it kills immediately. If I roll it on smoothly, which in reality is how it will be used when riding, it seems to do well. Took it around the block and no hesitation and no stalling.
I'm on call for work until this weekend so no riding it long distance for a couple of more days.
Is the OP having any better luck?
I was able to put 50 miles on the 900SS today. It ran really really smooth and accelerated quite nicely.
One thing though, if I whack open the throttle I can kill the engine. I can do it under load as well. Trust me I tried several different ways and getting more than a half twist in one handful will kill the bike. Thankfully when I release the throttle the moving bike will cause it to fire right back up. I don't guess I get to use the pumper portion of my carbs no 1/4 turn throttle for me yet.
Is this normal?
Hey I'm back! With good news too.
Got the jets in from CCW today and finally got time to throw the 58 slows in. So here's my setup now: 58 slow fuel, 165 main fuel, 5th needle clip on stock EMT needles, and I went back to what I'll call baseline settings of one turn out on both fuel and air screws.
The bike idled much better, transition from no throttle to on was MUCH better, and it was very smooth at what I've been calling cruising speed. I was kind of disappointed with acceleration from say 1/4 to 1/2 throttle. After that it pulled immensely harder than the Mikunis. I still felt that sharp vibration at takeoff, but not as bad. I don't like that feeling.
It is 37 degrees outside right now. I'm going to table it for the night and ride again tomorrow when it's hopefully 47. After I take notes then I think i try the EMS needles, to hopefully cure that lag from 1/4 to 1/2 throttle.
Sound like a plan?
Why not. :)
Consider the effect of the SAJ screw on response off a closed throttle. Fine tune that and your IMS, then start playing with the needles. Try #4 notch on the EMT, just so you know, and if that don't help then try the EMS on say, #4 to start with, and try that with acceleration and plug tests.
Very similar performance today, mid-40's. I just tried a half turn out on the fuel and I don't know if I really noticed much, so I'm going to go back a half turn the other direction and see if I notice something.
Fuel screw at half turn out I didn't notice much of a performance bump and I even felt two or three stumbles during a 10 minute ride.
Going to go back to 1 turn out, and start tweaking air screw, 1/4 turn at a time.
With the SAJ screw you will find a setting for how it interacts with the slow fuel jets and IMS, and a setting for how the power comes on from a closed throttle at lower revs. They might be the same, might not, if not then you can go for the compromise setting.
I found that a richer needle root diameter made me go down a size in the slow jet, and then I had to tune the slow circuit all over again! :D
Having fun....
yet?
man, this is soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo much easier than that new fangled injection crap!
I bet you don't miss benzene on your hands.
Quote from: ducpainter on March 29, 2014, 03:49:01 PM
Having fun....
yet?
You know, it's been super frustrating, but getting to the 'finish line' makes it all worth it and fun. I really enjoy working on it.
I ended up back at one turn on each screw for the best performance. I switched to EMS needle at 5th position and it seemed to run better. Butt dyno said better power. It's 38 degrees out right now though, going to revisit tomorrow when it's about 60.
Put in about 50 miles so far today, running pretty great!
To be honest, I was kind of expecting to be able to do roll on wheelies in at least second gear with the FCR's, which I can't. To be fair though, it is W heads and I do weigh 210 pounds before gear lol
Enjoy :D
Great carbs. Wait til you work the motor.
Quote from: ChrisK on March 30, 2014, 02:36:45 PM
Put in about 50 miles so far today, running pretty great!
To be honest, I was kind of expecting to be able to do roll on wheelies in at least second gear with the FCR's, which I can't. To be fair though, it is W heads and I do weigh 210 pounds before gear lol
Really? I'm surprised too...even when my bike was running at it's crappiest last year and was fouling my vertical plug constantly, gas wheelies in 2nd gear were never a problem. My gearing is 15/41. I'm only 165 before gear though. :/
My spare V heads will be in the classifieds soon.. :P
Quote from: Buck Naked on March 30, 2014, 06:58:39 PM
My spare V heads will be in the classifieds soon.. :P
I'll likely be very tempted. There's been another member make me a great offer on a set of v heads with dual spark and some other farkles... : )