Plastic Tank problems: Discussion thread, see info thread sticky for updates

[Desert Dust]

When you start discussing  the House, Senate, and legislation, it automatically become politics Gene.

Politics gets threads locked here.

Just sayin'
True, but ambient moisture will condense inside a tank that isn't full whether there is ethanol present or not, and there is water in every fuel storage tank in the world. I agree that the ethanol exacerbates the problem, but the real issue is the nylon.

I just think that people should know that ethanol free fuel is not a guarantee their tank won't expand.

All the more reason Ducati should have replaced the tanks with a proper functioning tank at no cost to owners.
All we have heard for the last several years was that ethanol was the culprit. If what you're saying is true, then tanks never should have been made out of nylon in the first place because the potential for expansion is there with any fuel. 

[ducpainter]

BTW, if you put your thoughts together on the EPA E-15 hearing the AMA asked us to attend in Arlington and post those on another forum, please leave a link on this thread.

P.P.S. Strikes me as highly political to disallow the discussion of the evils of ethanol. Never realized the AMA was a partisan organization..., and I've been a member since Malcolm Forbes got the Garden State Parkway opened to motorcycles in 1974! 

Discuss the evils of ethanol all you like as it pertains to Ducati motorcycles or small engines if you choose.

Leave the House, Senate, state laws and legislation out of it.

That part of the discussion is over.

[NAKID]

snip- But I do think there is an opportunity to get the Premium blend set aside as an ethanol free blend, there are some states that have done this already.

I don't run premium fuel in my motor. Maybe some of the 4V motors benefit from it, but I run midgrade. That's what I've found works best for my S2R1000...

[Curmudgeon]

I don't run premium fuel in my motor. Maybe some of the 4V motors benefit from it, but I run midgrade. That's what I've found works best for my S2R1000...

Due to the lower volume of Premium sales, it might well have a better shot at 100% exemption. Several Excel and Royal stations west of me already offer pure gas Premium. My local oil dealer recently started selling 87 and 93 M+R/2.

[rshafferdc]

ANY updates on this information?   I called the dealer this week to inquire about my latest tank expansion issue and they told me Ducati was DONE replacing/dealing with this issue.  Since it was just over a year since I had my tank replaced they said NO MORE!  I searched the internet for further info, but all I get is 2010/original information.

The dealer said another lawsuit was filed on this issue, so Ducati is NOT replacing any more tanks.

HELP PLEASE?

[ducpainter]

Details of the settlement are here... http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=43639.0

[SDRider]

http://pure-gas.org/index.jsp?stateprov=VA

A more useless website there never was.  There is 1 gas station within 500 miles of me and it is 30+ miles away.  My bike holds 3.5 gallons of fuel so that means I can ride about 100 miles before the fuel light comes on.  You might as well tell me to ride around with a support team to refill my bike whenever I run low on gas.

My 2012 Monster 1100 has had the tank replaced for expansion issues and there have been 3 revisions of the tank for my bike.  Look up the part number for yourselves.  BTW-I paid $300 out of my pocket to have the replacement tank coated before it ever had our crap fuel inside it.  I remain hopeful that I won't have any problems with it.

I'm totally on board with eliminating ethanol from our fuel.

[Curmudgeon]

And where do you live? (Rhetorical) 

Currently I buy 20 gallons at a time and refill when I get home. If you take a long ride and have to top up with crap, no biggie as long as you run low before you get home and top up with pure gas before parking.

30 miles isn't too terrible BTW. Before I convinced a local oil company to stock up on pure gas, I was traveling twice that far, so whenever I was headed that way in one of the cars..., empty race cans went into the back.

Your slime must be REALLY bad in CA as my dealer in NW VA as of last summer had only replaced ONE tank on a new Monster so far, and that was not due to swelling.

[SDRider]

And where do you live? (Rhetorical) 

Currently I buy 20 gallons at a time and refill when I get home. If you take a long ride and have to top up with crap, no biggie as long as you run low before you get home and top up with pure gas before parking.

30 miles isn't too terrible BTW. Before I convinced a local oil company to stock up on pure gas, I was traveling twice that far, so whenever I was headed that way in one of the cars..., empty race cans went into the back.

Your slime must be REALLY bad in CA as my dealer in NW VA as of last summer had only replaced ONE tank on a new Monster so far, and that was not due to swelling.

Ethanol is the devil.  Every Ducati made in the last 10 years is subject to various levels of tank issues because of this.  My dealer told me they have replaced a few tanks on the new Monsters and if you look at the parts list for my bike there have been 4 revisions already of my tank.

[Desert Dust]

Ethanol is the devil.  Every Ducati made in the last 10 years is subject to various levels of tank issues because of this.  My dealer told me they have replaced a few tanks on the new Monsters and if you look at the parts list for my bike there have been 4 revisions already of my tank.

Seems to me like Ducati is still the devil as long as they continue to manufacture fuel cells that distort and expand.  Sadly or not, ethanol will not go away any time soon; government subsidies have paid farmers to grow more corn when it wasn't profitable.

(Not being political- just stating a fact.)

[duccarlos]

Seems to me like Ducati is still the devil as long as they continue to manufacture fuel cells that distort and expand.  Sadly or not, ethanol will not go away any time soon; government subsidies have paid farmers to grow more corn when it wasn't profitable.

(Not being political- just stating a fact.)

Ducati does not manufacture tanks. Acerbis was subcontracted to build all the plastic tanks. Also, ethanol is mixed with regular gas mostly in the US. Of course you see ethanol in other countries, but mostly as a "stand-alone". With that in mind, Ducati and other manufacturers are already moving away from plastic tanks if only because now ethanol exposure is increasing in Europe and other regions.

[Desert Dust]

Ducati does not manufacture tanks. Acerbis was subcontracted to build all the plastic tanks. Also, ethanol is mixed with regular gas mostly in the US. Of course you see ethanol in other countries, but mostly as a "stand-alone". With that in mind, Ducati and other manufacturers are already moving away from plastic tanks if only because now ethanol exposure is increasing in Europe and other regions.

I don't see how that makes any difference. Whether or nor Ducati manufactures the tank is irrelevant. Ducati chose to use an ineffective fuel cell and I had to deal with it, as did thousands of others; Ducati is liable for the products they put in the showroom, and tank manufacturers should be liable for the tanks they provide. Ducati also knows about ethanol, yet they failed to do right by their customers. 

[duccarlos]

They replaced tanks all the way up to the point when they were taken to court and they settled.

[ducatiz]

There are a lot of ways to look at this.  I've run the gamut.

What we all have to remember is that a car or bike warranty is a service contract that it will perform as delivered for that span of time.  A 2-year warranty - generally - means that the bike will be fine for 2 years and then on the 731st day if it blows up, too bad.

Ducati did go well beyond that replacing tanks on bikes owned by 2nd/3rd owners, bikes out of warranty, etc.  You have to hand it to them for that. 

The criticism of them that they should have known, etc does not take a lot of things into account.  Yes, the tanks should have been more impervious to water, which ethanol introduces into the system.  In a strict sense, it was a design defect.

However, we have to follow the law and accept that NHTSA was made aware of the issues and determined that this was not a "defect" under the law necessitating a recall.

Next, the reality is that a full recall of all affected bikes may have bankrupted Ducati. 

I spent a lot of time being pissed about it, feeling betrayed, etc.  The folks that I dealt with at Ducati, though, were genuinely upset about it and (I felt) really did not like that owners were unhappy, but were limited in what they could do because of the financial realities of the company.  In other words, I think they had noble intent, but were afraid that a 100% acceptable solution was going to kill them.

I coated my S2R tank a long time ago.  I have had no issues since.  This is not a perfect solution, but I've accepted in some ways that it is no different from me dumping the udder exhaust and putting an aftermarket header on, or changing the triple or putting on a better seat -- i.e. the original setup had limitations and I fixed them.

No company is going to be perfect.  Ducati is the pretty girl that can't walk in heels without stumbling.  I still love her.

[Curmudgeon]

Discuss the evils of ethanol all you like as it pertains to Ducati motorcycles or small engines if you choose.

Leave the House, Senate, state laws and legislation out of it.

That part of the discussion is over.

EPA Acknowledges Ethanol Damages Engines
Courtesy of American Motorcyclist Association
Monday, April 21, 2014


American Motorcyclist Association
The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency has publicly acknowledged that ethanol in gasoline can damage internal combustion engines by increasing exhaust temperatures and indirectly causing component failures, the American Motorcyclist Association reports.

The EPA statements are found in a rule proposal issued by the Federal Trade Commission regarding a new label for pumps that supply fuel blends high in ethanol.

According to the EPA, "ethanol impacts motor vehicles in two primary ways. First ... ethanol enleans the [air/fuel] ratio (increases the proportion of oxygen relative to hydrocarbons) which can lead to increased exhaust gas temperatures and potentially increase incremental deterioration of emission control hardware and performance over time, possibly causing catalyst failure. Second, ethanol can cause materials compatibility issues, which may lead to other component failures.

"In motorcycles and nonroad products [using E15 and higher ethanol blends], EPA raised engine-failure concerns from overheating."

These EPA statements, contained in the FTC document, back the long-held position of the AMA.

"The American Motorcyclist Association has fought the distribution of E15 fuel blends in an effort to protect motorcycle and all-terrain vehicles from the damage that ethanol causes," said Wayne Allard, AMA vice president for government relations. "Now the EPA acknowledges that ethanol itself is harmful to emissions hardware and other components on all motor vehicles. It is time for the federal government to pause, take a hard look at this product and change its entire approach to ethanol in fuels."

E15 is a gasoline formulation that contains up to 15 percent ethanol by volume.

None of the estimated 22 million motorcycles and ATVs currently in operation can use fuels with blends higher than 10 percent ethanol. Doing so could void the manufacturer's warranty, in addition to causing damage to the vehicle.

The AMA applauded the EPA's decision in its proposed rule to roll back the requirement for wider distribution and use of E15 under its Renewable Fuel Standard.

The AMA also is concerned about the continued availability of E10 blends and E0 fuels -- gasoline with zero ethanol content -- if E15 is allowed to permeate the marketplace.