Ducati Monster Forum

Check er out:

http://www.torquenews.com/1062/ducati-1199-shows-its-face-leaked-photo (http://www.torquenews.com/1062/ducati-1199-shows-its-face-leaked-photo)

I know this is a derby but forgiveable because in a different board?

http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=49491.msg920469#msg920469 (http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=49491.msg920469#msg920469)

(http://www.motorcyclenews.com/upload/280938/images/ducati-xtreme-1199-motociclismo.jpg)

http://www.motorcyclenews.com/MCN/News/newsresults/New-bikes/2011/June/jun711-face-of-ducati-1199-superbike-revealed/ (http://www.motorcyclenews.com/MCN/News/newsresults/New-bikes/2011/June/jun711-face-of-ducati-1199-superbike-revealed/)

PLEASE Ducati call it the XTreme... how stupid. kinda like the Streetfighter... dumb name too.

XTreme is 11tb times more lame than Streetfighter.....  :P

I heard it was going to be called the 1199 Oompa Loompa and there would be a S version. [laugh]

Xtreme? is it 2001? Will it come with a Mountain Dew dispenser and a bag of Doritos?

do I see a little Cedici in there?  if so I'd like one but not for $24,999 without gold forks.

I prefer "Superquadrata" over oompa loompa or Xtreme  [thumbsup]

Agreed.

From MCN

"One source told MCN: "The XTreme name was something that was used within Ducati. It’s not the name of the bike which is almost definitely going to be 1199.""

I seriously doubt (and sure as hell hope) it's not going to get a silly name like that. Besides, if they did it'd be in Italian 'estremo' Always sounds better in some other language.

with a carbon frame so to speak i see this costing around the same as the 1098r when it first came out, this will not sell as well as the 1198, good thing the 848 will still be around, becaise i don't see many buying it.

I hope ducati wont be stupid enough to do that sort of commercial suicide. They obviously know that the only reason the company turned aroud is because the started offering a 15K top of the line superbike.

Everything I've heard (articles on the web and chatter from the shop) indicates aluminum subframes front and rear.

1199 Oompa Loompa Checa Replica? [laugh]

I've read somewhere, AL for standard version, CF for R version to meet WSBK requirements to race the CF.

you give them too much credit.  the real reason was Texas Pacific Group.  I'm not entirely sure they learned their lesson but we shall see.  Based on the tank issue they still seem to be hard-headed if not completely clueless in some respects.

all i know is that no matter how it looks... ducati has proven time and time again that as long as they paint it red, slap on a SSS and a trellis frame, we're going to want to buy it.

and yes, i know that the trellis is a thing of the past now :(

TPG sold the last of it's stake in Ducati in 2005...well over a year before the 1098 was released, which was the reasonably priced SBK that seems to have started the company's turn around.

That's not to discount TPG's positive influence prior to that though.

Quote from the italian magazine Motociclismo.it:
"Una meravigliosa sintesi di novità: dal rivoluzionario telaio passando per la per la frizione, per la distribuzione, per la fluidodinamica, per la componentistica, per le sospensioni, per il design."

 - revolutionary frame (we new that already);
 - new distribution (no more desmo?!?)

I think fluidodinamica (hydrodynamics) refers to the new airbox design, and the rest is all fluff. The only thing that leaves me wondering is that this magazine claims there will be a new distribution system... ???

distribution... maybe no more separate coils, maybe they sit on the plugs directly like many cars? I don't think they mean valvetrain.

we can probably expect new electronic clutch, the new transmission dst, traction, abs, electronic suspension on the S,

Wouldn't that be the gear driven cams?

That was true as well from what I read.

This motor is going to be so awesome. BUT, I wonder if Ducati will build a new 2V, keep the old one, or drop the 2v altogether.

carrying two motor designs with totally different architectures doesn't seem like a sound investment for the long term for such a small company.

Could me imagine a frameless naked Monster

My guess would also be that the "new distribution" refers to gear-driven cams.

TPG is the only reason they didn't go bankrupt.  They had a huge influence in turning around the reliability and designs.  I'm not sure I'd call the new 1198 or future "reasonably" priced seeing the MV, BMW and Aprilia.  We shall see. 

Who knows about the 1199...but the 1098/848 were definitely affordable compared to earlier SBKs. That's what was meant.

Agreed TPG did a lot, but that was earlier, definitely pre-1098. TPG bought Ducati in '96. The 1098 introduction is what started the recent good times for the company. IIRC, sales were a bit slow prior to the 1098, with the relatively unpopular 999 series, Supersport series, and ST-3.

for me the sexiest Ducs are first the Cedici and second the 999. 
anyway, lets wait and see what she will look like and the price point which is the most important thing.

whats this?

(http://tracktalk.nesba.com/picture.php?albumid=151&pictureid=2160)

disagree.   

price point only matters as it reflects on performance, if at all, for a flagship superbike from an italian manufacturer to me.

most important points to me would be the implementation of advances in technology (the stuff they've figured out in racing, etc), the various categories of performance, rider-to-bike ergonomics, and then aesthetics.  I want a dedicated monoposto version, at least on the plain-jane "S" model (or some other intermediate before the "R" model),  with proper subframe rather than over-design to make them all 'bipostos'.  Not at all concerned with what the mirrors look like on a SBK or how useful they are, whether or not the gauges feature a compass, miles-till-empty, clock, am/fm/xm radio, user-customizable greeting, or the like. 


and if its name is as terrible as "Xtreme" or "xtremo", I'll be a bit disappointed. Wouldn't really affect my decision whether or not to purchase though.   I think "1199" followed by "849", etc might be more appropriate if it has some correlation to actual displacement.  I like 'superquadrata' and 'medioquadrata/mezzoquadrata', and perhaps at some point, a third flavor for the noobs, 'piccoloquadrata/brevequadrata'.

where you'd run into problems with the 'word' names, not present in 'number' names, is the names of certain special models.  While "Pista" would fit fine, Superquadrata Pista, another classic would not wear so well: "Superquadrata Strada" ... Sounds like "estrada or nada" from My Name is Earl.

Ducati is decidely moving upmarket, so I expect the price of the standard model to be at least where the S model is now or higher.

The problem with names is that something that sounds cool in one language EG. 'medioquadrata/mezzoquadrata' (or even worse 'piccoloquadrata/brevequadrata' -- might as well call the bike 'choad' ) is complete crap in other ones.

Nothing against personal preferences, btw, I just want to point out the issue. Car manufacturers often change the vehicle name depending on where it will be marketed. The VW Jetta was initially called the Fox (vs the first gen Rabbit, which has always been the Golf in Europe), and in South America and Europe is/was called the Vento (which means wind in italian).

http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/news/ducati-superbike-1199-led-headlight/ (http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/news/ducati-superbike-1199-led-headlight/)

think Beemer.

Sentra = Tsuru, iirc

I luvs Sentra :o

cars or bikes?  

I'd like a new M3, I'm aware it costs a fortune. I am not as interested in a dumbed down version just to make the price point more appealing.

For me, it is similar in bikes, and it is likely many would have the same opinion as I: when looking at buying a luxury good (a complete non-necessity item), the price-point isn't the deal-maker/breaker so long as we're talking apples-to-apples.   That's because the purchase (for me), regardless of specific selection, is not rationally based - I don't need it.

And while there's some resemblance to rationality - as in, I'm not looking at apples-to-oranges, (e.g., Honda Rebel 250 vs. 1989 Batmobile Replica for commuting..., or even BMW S1000RR vs. Desmosedici as 'superbikes' - both being apples-to-oranges comparos), I'm not going to purchase a bike with knobs that don't go to 11 just because its a cheaper version of a comparable item.

If I was interested in the bike's features, liked its aesthetics and ergonomics, and price was also better, that's a nice plus, but I'd not sacrifice getting what I wanted for a few dollars saved, I'd simply wait a bit longer until I had the money.  Or try to find wet floors without signs in large retail stores and hope gravity + faceless corporation will help me purchase the bike.

i don't like the looks of it either but the price is appealing and cheap enough to have my own skins added.  lets just wait and see what the valve intervals are, the name and ultimately the price.  ;D
And although beemer cars are nice I'm a Benz loyalist through and through.  Where's that AMG/Ducati special anyway? 

(http://i556.photobucket.com/albums/ss4/dutchGT500/DOC003.jpg)

(http://i556.photobucket.com/albums/ss4/dutchGT500/DOC004.jpg)

(http://i556.photobucket.com/albums/ss4/dutchGT500/DOC005.jpg)

It looks.... Interesting. Not sure if I like it or not yet.

Top triples harken back to the 999 top triple. Nice to see that level of detail again. Might end up paying more for it though.........

I'm on board.

But the price and the 849 version questions remain.

Love the HUGE mouth for the airbox. that thing is a big grouper of an air sucker.

Ohlins, magnesium everywhere, makes me wonder is this is the stock or S version.

but I see that name X-Treme  [puke]

I don't think the huge mouth leads to the airbox. Rather to be more aerodynamic and to get more air to the radiator.

From what I understand the airbox will still be fed from the runners that start under the headlights. First photo, down right "Effetto Venturi": "Da notare le prese d'aria accanto ai fari".

I'm curious about the exhaust being under the engine, seems like they copied it from Buell.

It wont be.

The distribution will still be desmo, just no more belts. Chain and gears together with a wet clutch... :-\

Yup, my rudimentary Italian is telling me the same.

I'm liking everything about the engine except the wet clutch. It's not like it really matters, but the jingle jangle of the dry clutch will be missed.

Looks like it's time to buy an 1198SP

TPG had it's hand in the 1098.

Months after the 999 came out, work on the 1098 had already started.
TPG were the owners at that point.

How do you know that? I think it's more likely the 1098 concept came about after it was apparent that the 999 wasn't selling well due to price/styling. Terblanche was still head of design months after the 999 came out, and he had no involvement in the 1098. My guess is serious work started on the 1098 in early 2005...near the time TPG was selling. They may have had a part, but I don't think the bike can be attributed to them.

from the look of the clutch cover it's a dry clutch.
I wonder if the R or S models (like the one in the pic) are dry and the stock wet?

Second pic: "Frizione in bagno d'olio" = (lit.) clutch in a bath of oil, IE. wet clucth, the filler cap is just to the top right of the clutch plates.

Bike looks sexy, but I can't wait to see it naked! :-* I want to see both how it's made and a nice StreetFighter version of it. ;)

ok, I'll try my hand at translating the titles that I can:

First Page:

-Mirrors with integrated turn signals are making a comebac

- Horizontal rear shock

- LED Lights

- Runners designed with Venturi Effect in mind.

Second Page

- No more Steel Trellis frame

- Large Radiator

- Under engine Exhaust

- Rearsets place more forward

- MIxed distribution / Wet clutch

Third Page

- Apparently there's some sort of mystery button in the right clip on

- Magnesium Fairing Stay

- Passa Davanti refers to the fork placement. I can only read the first few lines but it's talking about how the forks are place further forward in the chassis than in the 1098, and how they extend past the plastics.

Not really. It refers to the steering damper, it is now placed in front of the triples.

The steering hub is large enough to allow for and adjustable head stock. And the key inside it seems to have red plastic around the teeth, and it's just sitting there.

Interesting, I guess you're right. When put in that context, it makes much more sense. My italian is limited to picking up girls  [laugh] [laugh] [laugh]

Glad to see someone put it to good use! [thumbsup]

Odd wet clutch casing to have a split right there...

Pics seem to be down now. If anyone has them, PM me and I'll give you my email and I'll host them somewhere they won't get taken down (bandwidth exceeded, etc).

http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/news/2012-ducati-superbike-1199-detail-photos/ (http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/news/2012-ducati-superbike-1199-detail-photos/)


Yea yea, you say that as if you speak Italian or something...


The LC8 has a similar assembly.

THe wetclutch with the dry clutch split location will make clutch changes easier for the racers?

but still the trouble of gaskets or goop?

a small round gasket as compared to a wierd shape one or even goop all the way around the case...

Still ain't as race friendly as none at all. Wonder if it'll be a giant o-ring

1199 Photo leak?  Really?

Okay, I've got a Nude Penelope Cruz photo leak.  Enjoy...











































(http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll176/nordog59/Penelope_cruz_wallpaper.jpg)

That's just mean Norris! >:(

I'm in lobe!

LOL.

Well, yeah, I guess that's my point.

How's N.E. Texas?  Wish I could get back thataway.

No you don't. Not now. Terrible draught conditions and 103+ degrees every day! [bang] No end in sight. Hasn't rained in months. Your bike would disappear in the cracks in the ground at my farm in Wood County! At least I don't have to mow a lot... everything is dead!

Enough end of the world news. Back to 1199 pic leaks. ;D

more new pics:

(http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/wp-content/gallery/2012-ducati-superbike-1199-mugello/2012-ducati-superbike-1199-mugello-spy-photo-2.jpg)

(http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/wp-content/gallery/2012-ducati-superbike-1199-mugello/2012-ducati-superbike-1199-mugello-spy-photo-1.jpg)

http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/news/2012-ducati-superbike-1199-spy-phtos/ (http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/news/2012-ducati-superbike-1199-spy-phtos/)

finally seeing it not  under heaving braking does level it out a bit, but there is NO room for a passenger. the biposto version will be wierd for the passenger.

in fact, Ducati has done that with the Monster, Diavel and now the SBK. zero indication where the back of the seat is for the passenger.

The tail looks an awful lot like the Aprilia rsv

Weird how the forks look really raked out in the second pic but look like a normal rake angle in the first. Must be a visual fluke.

Looks like two different bikes to me...

Notice how in picture #1 the rider's leathers have red on the leg, a black patch for the puck, and a red puck so it looks like a similar pattern and confuses the shape more? Neato.

I'm pretty sure the bodywork etc. is the same in both those pictures, if you can get by the camo. The exhaust looks like it may be slightly different between them.

Different wheels (they could have just changed tires, though) different forks (I'm guessing Showa's and Ohlins), different color plastics and tail section...

Think we are looking at the 1199 and 1199S

I wonder if that means the 1199 (non-S) will have the lightweight wheels of the 1198S

looks like no - the gold wheels (cast) & showa vs the black wheels (w/ red rimstripes - forged) and ohlins.

This looks more and more accurate (shape wise, not the livery):

(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-eReGKHqe5F8/TihSP0_9rHI/AAAAAAAAHdI/CRy3ZgGWBJ4/s800/Ducati%252520Superquadrata%252520Rossi%252520Replica.jpg)



same rear wheel setup, same exhaust setup, same groove/cut-out in fairing in front of riders knee / below tank, same lic-plate holder, etc.

I think the gold ones are actually the bronze forged ones like on the 2009 1198S. Maybe the new (black ones) are even lighter than the forged ones?

Yeah it does... That's looking pretty close. I bet production won't be so far off from that image.

No more ass roaster exhausts it seems.

Well, they did blatantly rip off the tail of the 1098 from MV, so...

rip off is a bit extreme, its like saying MV ripped off Ducati based on the 916...

Considering both bikes are Tamburini's design...

indeed, and the 1098 was a refresher of the 916, and the 1199 appears to be a similar evolution

That's like complaining that your wife's ass looks too much like Jessica Alba's.

i just wish that man would just design one more mv or ducati...  the problem with him is the simple fact that any new design made after one of his designs never looks as good.  everything that does look good is just a evolution of his original.

[laugh]
problems, problems.

God I have that EXACT problem!!

Best pic so far:

(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6147/5978734265_d54291a7ce.jpg)

 [laugh]

I'll wait till we all see a production version, but the test mules aren't exactly getting me going. :-\

thats michael jordan hands down. that or the miniaturized the bike.

It actually looks suspiciously like Troy Bayliss. Aussie flag on Spyke leathers, similar/same helmet design, etc... He is 5'8". So either they are fcuking with everyone and put a bigger test rider on with Bayliss-like gear, or this bike is tiny compared to the 1098/1198.

Fantastic. I'd be like a monkey make the beast with two backsin' a football.

Signore del Torchio has stated that it takes 3-4 years for a bike design to be complete.  TPG definitely had a hand in the 1098.

perfect. Personally, my only complaint about the 1098 is it's sheer size. Makes it a beast to handle in slow corners. I know a lot of people complain about the tight ethos of the 996, but that's the perfect size to me. Then again, I'm 5'9" and 165 lbs  ;D

Don't worry about that, you'll hit your growth spurt soon.  ;)

 ;D  One could be so unfortunate.


mitt

what if jessica alba's ass looks like your wifes?

Maybe. Maybe then I'll look as old as you?  ;D

Sure, but you'd have to lose that gut for it to happen. ;) o

(http://s2.visordown.com/uploads/images/large/39745.jpg)

http://www.visordown.com/motorcycle-news-new-bikes/ducati-1199-spied-again/18735.html (http://www.visordown.com/motorcycle-news-new-bikes/ducati-1199-spied-again/18735.html)

Damn that thing looks good.

Can't wait to buy one when my insurance doesn't cost 2000K a month for anything over a 600.  [bang]

Although, it has begun to look more "generic" with so little separating it from the Big 4. Still sexy though.

Im in if it comes with that sweet fanny pack.

Kinda looks like someone painted a KTM RC8 red and snapped a grainy photo... ;D

I cant wait to see the Official pics

the more i look at the tail the less i like it.
it's following the trend instead of setting one.

I wonder what kinda gas tank it will have.

Well considering that the trend went like this

999->1098->RSV4->1199

Can it really be considered following the trend?

At the moment I don't have an opinion on whether or not this or that body panel or whatever it is "setting" or "following" trends. However, I do hope as a complete bike it is more "inspired."

The 916-series looked different to most anything else out there.

Love it or hate it, the 999 was certainly interesting looking.

I never thought the 1098 looked terribly exciting. It doesn't look bad. On the contrary, it's quite a nice looking motorcycle. But as a whole it didn't command my attention in the same way the 916-series and 999 did.

Here's hoping that the final version of the 1199 will do just that.

I don't know. The 999 tail is pretty unique. I think it went more like

MV F4 -> 1098

RSV4 -> 1199 (from what I can see, whcih isn't much).

The RSV4 tail doesn't look to me like it followed the 1098 too much. But if it did, the 1098 definitely followed the MV.

This.

what the hell is that thing above the rear hugger? another fanny pack?

From what it says in the article, I think that's a header pipe. And maybe some heat shielding around it?

Expanding/leaky.   :-\

http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/news/ducati-superbike-1199-geardriven-cams/#more-24431 (http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/news/ducati-superbike-1199-geardriven-cams/#more-24431)

confirmed that it will have gear driven cams

Wow, finally.  Took them 35 years to dump the bevel drive and only 40 to start to phase out the belts.

(http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/Ducati-Superbike-1199-Superquadrata-Valentino-Rossi.jpg)

This "photoshop speculation" picture doesn't impress me. Like a CBR boned an RSV4. :P

 [thumbsdown]

The speculation shot has a dry clutch. Too bad the real thing most likely won't.

That rendering looks like garbage because it also has split 3 spoke wheels. Get real. It's not 1998 anymore.

It's the details in the rendering that look like shit also. If anything, the details on a Ducati are what always impress. It's like the dude who did thy rendering rides a Kawasaki....

Actually.... That's totally it.

Uhhhh, you might wanna go back a page and look at the rear wheel on the 1199 in the last pic.

I guess I assumed it was a split 5 that was moving and the pic was snapped by a cameraphone with a rolling shutter so it just distorted it.

I hope this i the case, cuz they are idiots if they think those wheels are cool. Maybe (if they are actually split 3 spokes) they're only for the 849 (or whatever name) bike... ?

+1

They're one step closer to getting me to buy one of their bikes again....

Don't get too tied up in the details and, instead, look at the big picture.  These spyshots are strategically and purposefully released.  They are full of smoke screen and misleading details.  The Diavel and Multi spyshots all looked crap and got people all worked up.  They even went as far as putting a little person on the multi to confuse people on its demensions.

(http://img172.imageshack.us/img172/4558/newsimagebig51282009122fj6.jpg)

that was great.

of course, that might have been a diminutive product tester, you know?

pedrosa's little known secret position as ducati test rider?

I still wonder how she got on/off the bike.

She?  Hell, I always thought that was IZ.

the bevels weren't their 1st foray into this realm...

http://www.ducatinewstoday.com/2011/08/the-first-gear-cam-drive-ducati/ (http://www.ducatinewstoday.com/2011/08/the-first-gear-cam-drive-ducati/)


I suspect that the 1199 will be far from their last....

They had just about everything you can name if you are counting one-offs and race bikes.  I was talking about commercial production.

They even had some diesels...  water pump engines, but Ducati and diesel....  and these:
(http://www.ducatinewstoday.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/Ducati-Outboard-Motor-20hp-2-stroke-Mid-70s.jpg)

Has Ducati ever made a 2 stroke motorcycle, either race bike or production bike (street or dirt)?

[laugh] [laugh] [laugh]

There's a joke there somewhere...

I think I said it when those pics came out, but fairly certain that was the girl that gave us our factory tour. She is the daughter of one of the original factory racers.

say what you will... this bike is giving me a serious pant-busting hardon.

Sweet!  Put one of those on my 14ft aluminum, add magnesium prop, Rizoma grip, carbon fiber engine cover,  and an FCR flatside carb!

Yup.

Regolarita 125
(http://www.motocrossdepoca.com/uploads/moto/dreg.jpg)

Here is a whole list of them

http://www.bevelheaven.com/brochure-index-2stroke.htm (http://www.bevelheaven.com/brochure-index-2stroke.htm)

The Regolarita is my favorite.. I have been trying to find a good condition model in Italy for a few years now

(http://www.bevelheaven.com/lgbrochure/125a.jpg)

How about the bike that the Honda Monkey copied?

(http://www.bevelheaven.com/brochures/supermini12a.jpg)

I wonder if those bikes were actually made by Ducati or rebadged Yamahas, Husqvarnas, etc...

what are the service intervals on that outboard?  ???

All made by Ducati.  Some were made under license by MotoTrans of Spain, but all were real Ducatis.  Designed and built in Bologna.  MotoTrans only made a few models, probably half a dozen between 1970 and 1980.

Cool.  Thanks Ducatiz.

Haha, sort of what I was getting at.

I picture a pissed-off fisherman sitting in the middle of a lake, swapping out timing belts and checking valves.

(http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/Ducati-Superbike-1199-WSBK.jpg)

Buell style exhaust is awesome. always loved that, so stealth. really shows off the rear wheel.

The more I see this bike, the more I'm convinced I'm going to buy one on impulse. Damn, I really need to stop looking at these threads. :-[

Might change you mind about impulse purchases

http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/news/ducati-superbike-1199-price-increase/ (http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/news/ducati-superbike-1199-price-increase/)

Maybe making room for a 2V Sport Classic 1100 with 1198 frame tech?

maybe hold off on frameless / no-trellis ducati superbikes until they can prove its competitive.  this current GP bike is a real turd.

Getting closer and closer each day to just walking away from Ducati...

Huh? Why?

They have the best bike linup they ever had!

Perspective

Anybody else notice the fork in that last pic?

Is that the R version?

Perhaps, or the S-version sports gas-charged forks. Either way, I expect the base model to cost more, and likely substantially more than the 1198.

I am still hoping the "extreme" and other names (even superquadrata) do not make it to final production for the model's name - I see no reason to discontinue the number scheme currently employed.

851/888/926
916/955/996/998   748/853
999          749
1098/1198          848
1199 (or other relevant displacement #)

I seriously doubt they'll use gas charged forks on a production model. The cost would be astronomical.

pretty sure that's them testing out the wsbk setups.

and i actually understand them pricing the 1199 so high.  if you think about it, that's about what a diavel/mts1200 runs and those have been selling really well for them.  it would make sense that their largest sbk would also run that same amt.  i just hope they are not overestimating the sbk market as the other bikes did really well for them because they were greenfield market segments for them.

I imagine it will be billed as the 1199 Superquadratta.

If you'll recall, the early 916 vintages had 'Desmoquattro' on the side, and the 998 has 'Testastretta' labels.

Yep. No way those forks make it to a production bike.

the GTL parallel engine is the original superquadratta engine...78 x 52 mm

disagree. i can see them gracing the R model

the bike looks tiny in the pic or else they have a really tall test rider on it.

what i heard was that it was both significantly smaller and significantly more expensive than the current crop.  going for competitive race model - a transition back to 'roots' - rather than bikes to appeal and market to the masses.

I guess they could...but they never have before.

they were on the d16rr.  no reason the comprehensive revision to the sbk lineup wouldn't feature such equipment on the flagship model.

i think it also depends on how you define 'production model'.   they will very likely be on an RS model.

a little teaser for the 1199 probably
Troy Bayliss's teasing speech (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSSwEERT6zQ#)

Correct, they put them on a $70K motorcycle (that they admit they lost money on). They didn't put them on a $40K motorcycle in the 1098R. We'll see, I just seriously doubt it. Price is the reason they wouldn't include them.

people don't purchase the R model because of a convenient price

the forks retail for 8-12k, if an "1199R" came with gas charged forks it could be estimated to command a price around $45-55k (though the R model may be at that price without gas charged forks).

its easy to "lose money" when you price oddball 16" magnesium wheels at nearly $10k/ea (customer retail price for a replacement).   aftermarket sets for 16.5 or 17 go for half msrp - so what they admit and the reality of what was going on isn't crystal clear.   the 1199 would benefit from economies of scale with respect to wheels - whether forged aluminum or mag - allowing room for better forks.  The gas charged forks have been in the current models parts catalog for quite awhile.

We'll see. It would be awesome, I admit!   [thumbsup]

recall there used to exist models for the masses - the mid bore "E" frame, the mid bore regular frame, and the mid-bore, higher spec "S" model

then there was the group of models for those that needed 'more' - the big bore standard model, and the big bore "S" model

then there were the models for those that needed to get a bit nuts:  the SP, SPO, SPS

and then there was the floor model "R"

but for those who were more special, there was more to be had from Ducati - the Factory bikes - the Corsa / Corse / RS (the WSBK homologation models, though I think the SPO could almost fit into this category)

The "R" model is fortunately/unfortunately a dumbed down version of the RS, lacking the really crazy parts but with a good bit of the "goodies".   The Desmosedici RR sold in the showrooms was a combination of the GP bike and the 1098 - it came with 1098 brakes (calipers and masters), for example, rather than the billet monoblocks and billet pumps. (thought it would at least be fitted with the HP line off-the-shelf stuff)

Here's a few shots of the kind of craziness that is the SBK history

(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-QWCTSylFWWI/TnPG3nyoIOI/AAAAAAAAHs8/tguvZ1EXijA/s400/170910chili916%252520%25252817%252529.JPG)
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-wzW132vz2J0/TnPGfj6uVpI/AAAAAAAAHs0/r7EOW-sME84/s400/02022008020.jpg) (https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-jHMARQR35MU/TnPGf8iaynI/AAAAAAAAHs4/przGEEIaB1Y/s400/02022008019.jpg)

(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-JZCxO3pivIA/TnPHKrTHy_I/AAAAAAAAHtA/EF_Sx5_VuKM/s800/P0003766.jpg)
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-Wsos4sm_8KE/TnPGT48GfOI/AAAAAAAAHsw/5lxf4XgA2PQ/s800/748rs%252520rhs%2525201-4%252520view.jpg)
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-xRi234WwLFM/TnPF8iIsRuI/AAAAAAAAHso/_R8-7GpWhL0/s800/heilige-werkshallen.jpg)
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-jv-Z0WsKXVw/TnPF2gZMI-I/AAAAAAAAHsg/-1oc7-k85_c/s800/windtogether.jpg)
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-jGgY28SAWE4/TnPF78nNv6I/AAAAAAAAHsk/Fs2zmvVWCeo/s800/howitworks.jpg)
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-7-9oXsCOfJc/TnPF1fLT2RI/AAAAAAAAHsc/Ng51gBwnUjo/s800/manifolds.jpg)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-MCs6Ov4Dqe4/TnPFzzMoc0I/AAAAAAAAHsY/ElSH-0HJj0Q/s800/shock.jpg)
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-eJ1v8ZSt5Ds/TnPFobboKPI/AAAAAAAAHsQ/SHPNzf3mcdo/s800/brakes.jpg)
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-LR2GYTP42EM/TnPFuKtkIOI/AAAAAAAAHsU/kyX5fIUiUI0/s800/EndofseasonFoggy955.jpg)

(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-7c3K2xGA89U/TnPGMwOa1vI/AAAAAAAAHss/5zsJXyJu9vM/s800/sfiato-999-06.jpg)

Keep in mind that many dealers had trouble sellin a 1098R at 40k. It took at least 6 mos for the local shop to sell theirs, and I think they got 33-34 for it. A 55k sbk is gonna be a tough sell. Not every market is Dallas  ;)

Fixed it for you.

what the hell is that on the bottom of the case???

It's a feature.

so's the pimples on my ass, but what's that on the bottom of the case??!!

It looks like an exhaust manifold.

Really, what the hell is it?

Early deep sump

Since Ducati has eliminated most of the leaking oil issues many have complained the bike lacks character.  So Ducati added 3 unnecessary gaskets for future (after warranty) character.    ;)

Probably for use during the construction process?

You think that's what he's going to annonce ?  Troy Bayliss's teasing speech (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSSwEERT6zQ&feature=player_embedded#)

i thought it might be that, but the design doesn't look like it maximizes the space to hold oil -- plus it's not on center which means the oil will not circulate well.  it will definitely fill with oil though.  if they were going to make a deep sump the proper way to do it would be to mount it towards the center and run the oil pickup to the bottom of it. 


yeah, it does, but it isn't. 

the price scares me.

 Dry sump collector?

Its a regular case though with the same filter and pickup.

del Torchio said it takes 5-6 years for a new design to come to the market.

1) Is there an echo in here?

2) Did he say 3-4 or 5-6??  ;D

 [laugh]

This.

early deep sump, prior to crankcase design overhaul.  they didn't go from the standard depth crankcases - still fairly evident on even the 1100evo motors to the fancy 848-1098-1198 lightweight deep sump crankcases overnight!

http://youtu.be/lXMEoPl-2so (http://youtu.be/lXMEoPl-2so)

So now it's looking like the Panigale?

http://www.ducati.com/1199_panigale/index.do (http://www.ducati.com/1199_panigale/index.do)

yepper

Nobody saw that coming!

It was one of the few names mentioned before
I think

Extremo
Superquadro
Panigale

were the three associated with it

the name will appeal to ducatistas but won't win new riders. 

what's interesting to me is they've never done any tribute names to any of the ducati brothers... seems to me they could have just as easily named it the 1199 Adriano and that has a little more appeal..  "Panigale" can't even be pronounced correctly by the average joe schmo american.  or even name a bike after dear old dad... the 1199 Antonio

if ferrari can do it successfully, why not? 

If you are using Ferrari as an example...

Modena
Maranello
Fiorano
Scaglietti

just a few examples of names used

good ones, and all are easier to pronounce correctly (for Americans) except maybe the last one


Ducati has used place names in the past:

Santa Monica
Laguna Seca
Montjuich

Same video as above - but embedded for the lazy

The new Ducati Superbike 1199 Panigale is coming / La nuova Ducati 1199 Panigale sta arrivando (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXMEoPl-2so#)

At least they didn't call it the "extreme"

i heard they were gonna call it the "STFU and buy a dozen" but it got killed in committee

Well I'm make the beast with two backsing excited. Like the kind of excited that comes when finding out either she's not pregnant or you aren't the dad

Apparently ducati isn't sure about the new bike
they arent taking it into wsbk the first year

so damned if you do and damned if you don't?

or damned if you did and damned if you didn't... lol

no - two scenarios - you-did-and-she-isn't (yay!) or - whether-or-not-you-did, she-is-and-it-isn't-yours (yay!)

and this is the "yay!" of freedom and/or relief

Fixed it for you.

you must've never had a raincoat break, and the 2nd scenario is something i have been made aware of by such reputable journalists as Montel Williams and Maury Povich

Source? No 1199 period, or no "factory" team.

+1  (would like to see it at least in privateer teams for wsbk and as a replacement for AMA since its painful to watch the 1198 sit midpack every race... guess that sounds a whole lot like watching a MotoGP race right now)

Ducatinewtoday is quoting they are running FIM superstock 2012 and WSBK 2013

http://www.ducatinewstoday.com/2011/09/ducati-1199-panigale-wont-see-superbike-action-till-2013/ (http://www.ducatinewstoday.com/2011/09/ducati-1199-panigale-wont-see-superbike-action-till-2013/)

That's ghey

well after getting their asses handed to them with this type frameless bike in motogp, maybe they want to see if this bike has a fighting chance.

When you have Troy Bayliss testing it and he loves it, you might have something there. make the beast with two backs MotoGP.

The frameless design worked really well for several years including winning a world championship. Just because it's not working right now, doesn't mean that it's a flawed concept.

The sound of the motor revving at the end of the video gave me chills down my spine...

and a tingle south of the border

That might be a bit of a stretch.  They just happened to have a rider that was bat-shit fast and would push the bike to the edge (and beyond) regardless of the bike's lack of front end feel.  I'd actually be willing to wager that championship was more about Stoner than it was about the bike.

195 BHP & 176 kg wet!  ;D [clap] [Dolph]

Are you sure it was frameless in 2007 when Stoner won?

frameless in 2009, but that year stoner was pretty much out, however he still from time to time made the bike competative. if i understand it right, the only reason stoner could take that bike to that kind of limit was because he had some serious balls and trust in the bikes ability.

You guys are right, I looked it up, it wasn't frameless in 2007.

As for arguments about the GP bikes, I just don't think they apply to a street bike.

the front connected to the motor and not to the rear it was frameless as per the definition that ducati has
just the air box was separate instead of integrated

As far as bayliss he's on the payroll he's not going to say it has the same issues. as the gp bike
until this bike tech wins with another rider I'm not convinced
When or better if it does then i will concede it is a good bike

+1

It may be fine for a SBK, since they're quite a bit different from GP bikes...but I want to see.

i'm not sure how different they are - wheels, brakes, motor, chain drive, swingarm, forks, tank, clipon bars, etc - sure they are each slightly different, but not different animals. its not flat-tracker to road-racer different. Heck, They race them on many of the same tracks!  So what's the difference in GP to SBK that would make lack of front-end feel "ok"?

There's an issue when there are two former world champs on the current machine who've done great on other manufacturers rides, but are having difficulty with this bucket o' bolts.

also the fact that the specs are close to the same. @400 lbs and @200hp

Horsepower, motor configuration and power delivery, front tire grip and the forces that are put back into the chassis, 800 riding style vs. SBK riding style...off the top of my head. I'm not saying a lcak of feel would be OK, but maybe it won't be as noticeable on a SBK.  ???


Agreed. I'm very curious to see how the new chassis works on the SBK. It could very well be a POS.

Tires also.

The MotoGP Bridgestones are a very hard carcass tire so when you're at big lean angles it transmits a lot of feedback, but it also means the frame has to be the more pliant 'suspension'. Back when Stoner was winning on the Duc, Bridgestone weren't the only tire in MotoGP. Even as they became the spec tire, they were making a special front for the D16. Now they've done away with that and every team gets the same tires. That's why this season, more than any other, Ducati have been having problems with their "front end". The other 3 teams giving Bridgestone data and input are 1.) Japanese also, and 2.) aluminum twin spar frames. There is no reason for them to cater to Ducati anymore.

The 'frameless' design has the ability to be lighter than a twin spar. This is negated in MotoGP, however, because the minimum weight is so drastically heavier than what Ducati are ABLE to achieve with their bike. For a road bike there is nothing saying you have to make your bike heavier. In SBK the minimum weight is apparently not a hindrance to Ducati either, as Prezioso only complained about MotoGP weight limits.

In SBK (and especially the real world) they have tires that aren't such a hard construction as the Bridgestone GP tires (you're not seeing nearly the same loading and stress on the tires). The spec Pirellis in SBK are a much softer carcass (as are all other tires) so they are able to better soak up bumps mid-corner vs. relying on the frame to do all the work as in MotoGP.

I wonder whether the DP catalogue will list a Alu or a CF airbox  ;D

I think the minimum weight rule is BS - these are supposed to be prototype machines - If a manufacturer can produce a 220hp 800cc bike tipping the scales at 295 #, then so be it. I can only imagine the rule exists to prevent Honda from bankrupting the competitors in this fashion (instead they are allowed to have a 5-man factory team ???)

I think a lot of Honda's performance this last season has been the culmination of several things, not least of which is the termination of the F1 program. They spent so much time effort and money in F1 and sacrificed so many seasons for "the future" and they finally had a world-class car and then they quit. Brawn took the car, put a Mercedes engine in it and dominated 2009.

They've been the same way in MotoGP, always 'looking towards the future' and sacrificing the present. Once the F1 program stopped they redistributed those lot of engineers. Many went back to Motorcycles and you get them finally working out how to include seamless shift transmissions and stuff like that.

The Spec tire is THE problem.

Can't move the wide V4 forward anymore cause it will foul the tire.

Can't get the front tire hot enough because you can't push hard enough as the front end feel is to vague (not my words, VR and NH). 

Use a soft front and it goes away after the first part of the race, and the ducs start to drift back.  Have cold temps and they are in real trouble.  When the venue has been hotter, they have done better.

VR said the 12' bike was better, because the motor/speed loaded up the front better, which provided heat, etc.  Other reason was the bike can "ride around" the tire issue easier, as the 1000cc bike makes more torque.

Most of the above was straight out of an article.  When I find the link, I'll post it.

Another article:

http://www.cycleworld.com/2011/09/17/finding-flexibility-in-motogp-racing/?zeta_mid=HFM2_572783&zeta_rid=80693876 (http://www.cycleworld.com/2011/09/17/finding-flexibility-in-motogp-racing/?zeta_mid=HFM2_572783&zeta_rid=80693876)

Lots of variables, the most difficult being the rider.

(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6165/6178280819_e64438ae94.jpg)
(http://hellforleathermagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/ducati-1199-termignoni.jpg)
(http://hellforleathermagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/ducati-1199-mirror.jpg)

So they are testing them with American riders now?   [laugh]

You called it just as Wes from Hell for Leather saw it.
"This latest batch of Ducati 1199 spy photos was snapped by a member of Ducati.ms on the Italian Autostrada. The biggest revelation? Well, this is the first time we’ve seen the 1199 ridden by an…American-sized rider. Evaluating the 195bhp superbike’s ability to ride between McDonald’s and WalMart as annoyingly as possible, this is also the first look at what Termignoni is cooking up for an exhaust system. "

that rider looks to be about 6'3 and 230-250lbs. 

So I'm assuming that the grill lid under the seat keeps the exhaust from cooking your balls into infertility, but could they maybe suss out a way to make it a bit less intrusive, visually?

And I'm sure this has been covered before, but from those pictures a wet clutch looks like total certainty.

Oh thats a grill lid... I thought it was a bed pan  [bang] [laugh]

Even 250 seems a bit conservative.

 [laugh]

that's a lot of cowhide

upper body, arms and legs look thin..  tall guy with a big gut and ass.

suit has a back hump so it makes his upper body look huge

The exhaust is in the right spot. [thumbsup]

Fat and out of shape.
Who better to test ride a performance motorcycle.   :P

My comments on FB was that either that guy was huge or they finally made an SBK my size. The exhaust looks "off".

HEY!  I resemble that remark!

Shut up Buell boy. 

 ;D

Yeah, wassat under the seat that is silver and enormous??

Also looks like new Brembo front calipers to me. Different shape than the M4 that came on 848e/1098/1198/sf/d16rr

(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6165/6178280819_e64438ae94.jpg)
Don't forget the side-boob. Or is that side-moob?

Is it going to come with all those pieces of red duct tape on the fairing? Seems like that would make it hard to wash. ;D

The way it's configured the swing arm looks like one on a stretched out Busa. :P

With creative photo cropping, you may never know the difference. ;D

I could never get over that fact that when I was in Italy and had to buy a roll.....

It was known as

"American tape"

can you imagine the part arrival time on Ducati "American" Tape for your 1199 when a piece falls off?

modified with respects for my stupidness

 :(

you should read up on Dolph. Ghosts don't testride.  :-\

Now that's funny! [laugh] And will they make a high performance DP version of the tape bits? ;)

they didn't run the 999 its first year, either...

That and the fact that it cost me the equivalent of $11 USD for a roll about

---
      >this thick
---

Anyways, the new spy shots look badass and the Termis look $$$

And I suspect they will be.

"The new Ducati 1199 Pangiale superbike boasts 195bhp and 176kg weight in road trim – WET."

from mcn

http://www.motorcyclenews.com/MCN/News/newsresults/New-bikes/2011/September/sep2111-ducati-1199-panigale-power-and-weight-figures/_/R-EPI-132817 (http://www.motorcyclenews.com/MCN/News/newsresults/New-bikes/2011/September/sep2111-ducati-1199-panigale-power-and-weight-figures/_/R-EPI-132817)


that's 388lbs wet... pretty crazy.

 :o

That can't be right.

They finally made a twin production bike lighter than the 600ss (172kg dry, 177 wet).. lol

I'll believe it when an independent weight measurment is taken. Ducati has been optimistic in their claimed weights lately.

That said, I'm sure it will be relatively light, regardless.

Reminds me of being back in my younger days and looking around the bar at last call.

For comparison, what does a 1098 or 1198 weigh wet?

447 lbs (wet; 2009 1198) according to this article.

http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/100/3400/Motorcycle-Article/2009-Ducati-1198-Comparison-Street.aspx (http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/100/3400/Motorcycle-Article/2009-Ducati-1198-Comparison-Street.aspx)

For comparison Ducati claims the 2009 1198 weighs 377 lbs dry. So the bike picked up 70 lbs between dry and wet. Hmmm.  [coffee]

well, oil + coolant + fuel + brake fluid might account for a lot of that.   i think "dry" means "really really really dry"

Agreed. May not even have a battery!  [laugh]

Anyway, if a 70 lb dry-wet gain is reasonable and the 1199 really does weigh 388 wet...then it will weigh somewhere around 320 dry, which is phenomenal!

oooh, i absolutely bet it does not include battery too


i should weigh my project 2vSBK in this manner down the road, y'know, when its "finished" (if such a date should ever arrive).

  Would help explain the supposed price increase.

 [laugh]

Gasoline is 6lbs per gallon, so a 4 gal tank would yield 24 right there.

Batteries are around 8-10 lbs

Coolant capacity is about 1 gal and weighs about the same as water: 7 lbs

Not sure where the other ~30 lbs would come from.

Also engine oil, fork oil, and brake fluid are not included when the manufacturers calculate dry weight. Anything to get that number down.

So does the Pangale have 195 rear wheel hp or is it 195 at the crank? 

If I recall correctly, 195 at the crank.

so about 175.5 rwp if you're estimating 10% loss

So what does the 1198 have at the rear wheel?

your mom

154.74hp, 91.66ft-lb

According to this guy, on his particular bike, on that dyno, on that day:

http://www.ducati1198.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12524 (http://www.ducati1198.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12524)

According to the Wikipedia entry for the 1198, 157.91hp, 90.14ft-lb.

Lol

They list dry and wet weight for the SF848, hopefully they'll start doing that for all their bikes.

Frame & exhaust?

Talking about dry vs wet weight

List of things removed for dry weight # and approximate volumes or weights (to be nailed down later):

- battery - yt12bbs ('member when they were 16's?!)
- fuel - 15-20L, varying by model
- engine oil - ~3.5-4qt
- engine coolant
- fork oil
- were there others?

I also expect that weight to reflect the lightest "country-variant" made - so if there is a non-flapper model sold in Europe or South America, they'd start with it. So also remove the dumb fuel evap charcoal canister and tubing.

Then again, we may be doing the math differently - they may specify a group of "essential" parts and add their individual weights, then truncating to nearest whole number (rather than rounding). This would certainly omit the above list but would also cleverly omit some gaskets and seals, some nuts and bolts, etc.

The other-other method may use a set of originally spec'd prototyped parts with closer tolerances and more precise castings for tiny changes per part but totaling up to a pound or so net reduction. (hell, maybe more as the casting dies and such wear...)

still talking about moms?


(sorry, I live near the burbs now, and they are everywhere)

Bayliss chimed in on his twitter apparently about the Panigale...

http://www.ducatinewstoday.com/2011/09/troy-bayliss-says-not-to-worry-about-ducati-1199-panigale/ (http://www.ducatinewstoday.com/2011/09/troy-bayliss-says-not-to-worry-about-ducati-1199-panigale/)

Latest Tweet from Bayliss

I think it's all pre-emptive damage control. Rossi's also now saying the GP11/12 problem isn't the frameless design (carbon or Alu) but getting the weigth over the front-end. I think they're scare MotoGP failure will hinder sales of the 1199 Panigale.

i'm pretty sure that any normal person that gets a 1199 will never be able to put enough stress on the frame for the frameless design to show it's failings.

wsbk is another matter though... but like bayliss said, in street trim i think it will be a huge boost in speed the 1198

I don't think they're not worried about the reality (design), they're worried about perception (sales). People are discussing the link between the 1199 and MotoGP on several fora and in the media. I doesn't need to be true to hurt sales, just people believing it's true is enough.

I don't think the sales will be hindered all that much. What percentage of 1098/1198 owners do you think actually follow Moto GP?

disagree. and partly because whether I feel it is not really the point.   there's no way to define "normal person" - there's coffee-shop ducatista, the weekend enthusasts, the canyon carvers, 0-mile collectors, no M-class-license+headlights-removed track-day-only riders, amateur racers, and AMA/Foreign Equivalents & WSBK riders.   are the only riders to experience chassis problems going to be the Rossi's, Hayden's, Stoner's, ... or the Bayliss/Fogarty/Capirossi/Bostrom/Roche kind of riders?⁰  

these aren't intended to be likened to the Lamborghini's of motorcycles (lookin at you, MV Agusta); these are to be race-bred and raced - if it won't win, scrap it - similar to the Ferrari factory's mentality and approach to building their flagship supercar line.  And for the top of the line model, if it happens to be priced out of the range of some customers, so be it - don't water it down to sell more of them. There's a sea Japanese bikes that are just that (i.e. "more comfortable ergonomics to appeal to the masses as street friendly to the detriment of track riding posture...") and in the coming years, I expect to watch that bland, "not-so-super"-bike segment grow with additions from Chinese and Korean manufacturers - each vying for a bit of the large sportbike market.

Ducati is Italian motorcycle manufacturer whose reputation has been built on racing and winning, and this bike is to be their new flagship superbike/race-replica model. There likely will be some variant that is a special-purpose homologation model. If the new design is inherently inferior but only perceptible if pushed very hard, i say scrap it.   let BMW Motorrad continue to test and implement odd-ball solutions to problems that don't actually exist (lookin' at you, duolever front end) or aren't better than the existing approaches.   To stick with an inherently inferior design - that is perceived by those pushing the race-derived bike - will do little to keep those kinds of customers with the brand, or attract similar customers.  Leaving Ducati trying to market an exotic Italian bike at a higher price to those whose preferences are more aligned with the 'masses'.  And some customer in the back of the room pipes up, asking "why's the seat so high, and handlebars so low? Its too uncomfortable!¹" and another follows with "i don't like the noisy clutch! make them all in oil bath!²" then "can you offer it in unconventionally bright pearlescent paint colors? - like orange and green!³"

...and over the years Ducati becomes the Lambo of Italian bikes, displacing MV Agusta further into obscurity.   And I end up buying a motorcycle from Hyundai or Kia.    :-\

⁰ - in that case, lets switch back to less expensive conventionally mounted two-piece calipers, semi-floating or fixed rotors, external-reservoir-less shocks, axial-pump master cylinders, rubber brake lines, lower spec tires (pirelli supercorsas are expensive!), and valve springs... cost would go down drastically - to same as Japanese SBK's!
¹ - People (and Magazines) complained of 916-748-996-998's ergonomics: seat higher than the handlebars + really long reach, but it wasn't made for pedestrian uses, like bike night or commutes - it was made to win, and it won.
² - Honda, for example, produces showroom models only with wet clutches but at top level MotoGP - they, like all manufacturers, run dry clutches.
³ - seen the colors Lamborghini puts out now? trying to make it into hip-hop videos i suppose, but they all appear gaudy/flashy to me.

it was fairly high when I was in Dallas - if they didn't watch the races, they at least saw the results. And that is even more damaging in some cases.

this i agree with.  it may not be inferior to current design at all, it could be equal or an improvement - but sales hurt if there are concerns that it is similar to the GP bike's design, and with the GOAT on the GP bike and not winning - it doesn't look good. Add to it that the current model SBK had a fairly abysmal season in WSBK & AMA, people might not be looking at Ducati at all.


Troy's posts and times are encouraging - wonders if this was done on a 'base', an 'S', an 'R', or a factory bike such as an 'RS', and what his comparison time was done on.

Fairly abysmal WSBK?..  [evil] i think checa's been dominating.

have you been watching the races?

You mean the series that Checa is dominating this year?

Got em all on DVR.

i watched 'em too.  you see checa true enough, and then ... any others?   factory team...?     Aprilia is running a fairly new bike and hasn't been competing in WSBK as consistantly as Ducati, yet they have 20 podiums - only 3 short of Ducati.  And Checa is definitely kicking ass - but he's certainly a bit special too - he's ridden for Ducati in the past, and his resume includes WSBK, MotoGP+250+125, etc.

how about in AMA? - the bikes were not competitive like they should have been.  One rider changed off of his to a Triumph during the season!

i ought to fess up for those who do not follow the series, i am referring to DiSalvo, and it wasn't until NJ that he switched.... he'd been doing "OK" during the season, if I recall a strong start then a lot of mediocrity

isn't the 848 kicking ass in that endurance series

i only see the results of that one, don't record/watch it - 6 series is enough time as it is (sbk & ss ama, sbk & ss wsbk, MotoGP & Moto2)

All I have to say is that it's been a while since I saw a post with footnotes. The pedantic nerd in me approves wholeheartedly. [laugh]

As for Ducati's race results, with regards to production series (serieses? series'? I really should know this...)

Checa is dominating in WSBK, but he probably would be on any other marque of motorcycle, as well. Guintoli and Smrz both perform decently, but aren't championship contenders. Nobody else on a Duc seems to be doing much. How much of this can actually be blamed on the 1198 is of course up for debate, but the Ducati is hardly filling out the bottom of the roster.

At Imola, in Superstock 1000, the top four riders were on 1198s.

There aren't many Ducs in BSB, but Rutter can manage to keep up with the I4s. Jessop is no slouch either, though Rutter has overshadowed him through much of the season.

However, the Ducati suffered greatly at the Isle of Man due to its top speed deficit.

On power circuits, the 1198 is at a disadvantage compared to the four cylinders more impressive top-end. Though Checa would probably do well on anything mildly competitive, it can't hurt Ducati to make a more powerful bike with greater top-end go-fast-ness. Everyone else will be.

None of the complaints about the 1198 seem to have anything to do with the frame, or handling. I do hope Ducati have their shit together with this new frame concept, as it would be mighty expensive (and hurt corporate pride) to have to redesign after a year or two.

For full disclosure, my comments are based on the fact that I follow WSBK/SS/STK, MotoGP/2, BSB, and pretty much ignore AMA, etc.

(I feel certain I had a point I wanted to make, going into that. I'm not sure I managed to do so, but there it is...)

So yea, I think we've sufficiently covered the fact that the 1198 has languished in competition this season. 

so has anyone tested the bike and "leaked" the results?  I'm still betting the base price to be $24,999  :P

In superbike trim, yes.

It seems to do better in superstock trim.

I was being a bit sarcastic. 

Apologies. Sarcasm detector must be running at half-capacity this afternoon. :P

 [thumbsup]

Bayliss

http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=51286.msg968309#msg968309 (http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=51286.msg968309#msg968309)

The current (and recent) Ducati superbikes have all been derived from the revolutionary 916. For the past 17 years, the frame has (for all intents and purposes) been the same design. The bikes have of course gotten an evolved engine (which has been again, of the same original design), suspension, brakes, fueling and electronics, and have obviously increased substantially in power (with lower weight thanks to the newest engine evolution).

Considering everything, this will be their first ground-up SBK design in almost 2 decades... Sarcasm or not, I'm pretty sure the damn 1198 needs to be put out to pasture already.

Can't wait for the 1199!

Just to be an intolerable pedant, the current superbike engine derives from the 851, not the 916. ;)

actually, all derived from the Apollo engine



























 [evil]

You guys actually believe that people will not buy the 1199? Some people will buy anything with the Ducati logo on it. I would go as far as to say that 75% of Ducati owners in the US do not watch any racing.

Hey, this here boy-racer wannabe only accepts the very best, irrespective of his capacity to use it!

(Which is limited, to be charitable.)

I don't watch racing.  I'd rather be out riding.

I was going to say pantah

A mini site for the superquadro engine is up

http://www.superquadro.ducati.com/en/ (http://www.superquadro.ducati.com/en/)

Not too much info, but there are hp and torque curves. Peak HP of 195 at 10750, with a max rev (on the chart) of 11,500. Peak torque is 8,750 and looks to be 98 ft/lbs.

Some photos and CAD renderings of the engine. It's a chain driven cam, not quite the gear stack of the GP engines, but gone is the belt. Some other details:

Perfomance

    _195 hp
    _4.41 in (112 mm) bore diameter
    _Full and indipendent RbW system
    _2.66 in (67.5mm) equivalent diameter oval throttle body
    _Twin injectors for each throttle body
    _Feeding and delivery gerotor oil pumps for vacuum effect
    _Crankshaft on shell bearing for enhanced stiffness

Weight reduction

    _Nikasil coated alluminium wet liners
    _Decompressor device on both cylinder heads
    _Inlet titanium valves
    _Magnesium sump cover, head covers and clutch covers
    _Plastic gears (tecno polimeri) for oil and water drive

Power Delivery

    _Integrated design for engine & vehicle: the new Superquadro engine is a fully stressed member of the chassis
    _Racing oriented pistons: double ribbed and RR58 alloy
    _Secondary Air System
    _New chain drive timing system
    _Slipper and self-servo wet clutch
    _New gearbox: increased dimension between shaft centers for increased strenght

That engine looks very sexy

60.8mm stroke.  That's amazing.  The 750 has a 61.5 stroke and the 600 had a 58mm stroke.  can't imagine what the pistons must be like to keep them from getting cocked in the bore.

have to say i like the "superquadratta" name over "superquadro"

I looked at the site linked above, and that is one amazing engine.  One question I have though, is on the rod that holds the rocker arms,  (i may have that terminology wrong, the rod that hold the dealy-bobs that the cams move is what I am trying to say) Right next to the bits that the cams move, wrapped around the rod and connected to the things I am calling rocker arms, are.... springs!  what are springs doing in a desmo engine?

There's always been helper spring on the closer side. Sure as hell springs in my 2000 2v

all of the street bikes have helper springs -- about 7lbs.  actual poppet valve springs on spring valve bikes run 60-80-100 lbs.

some racers remove them and set the closer to some really tight gaps which pull the valve nearly closed and the pressure in the cylinder shuts it.  street bikes usually do not have exhaust closers that tight and the extra help with the spring keeps things running well.

Oh.  thanks for the clarification about the springs.

That's the system I had to remove from the Super Duke to keep it from back-firing (quite loudly) every time you let off the throttle. 

apparently its a backfire onpurpose in the exhaust system to burn any left over fuel for cleaner emissions

Pretty much.  It injects "fresh" air into the engine, just prior to the exhaust port.  So basically it tricks the emission "sniffers" into thinking it's running leaner.

And I'll tell you from first hand experience, all that back-firing gets pretty irritating. 

thought i read after the exhaust ports

On the 1199?  Maybe.  I was speaking about the LC8 motor with that comment.

i know [evil]

Video on the engine

The new Ducati Superquadro engine / Il nuovo motore Ducati Superquadro (subtitled) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7SKvsW_0qo#)

So after watching that I'm wondering if this


is the new Vacuum system they mentioned. Some special gizmo to keep the vacuum pressure in the case constant. Could still be that emissions thing like in the LC8 too... hmm

2:43

"for the first time in a ducati engine we have introduced a chain driven cam"

uhh. no..(http://www.motorcyclespecs.co.za/Gallery/Ducati%20500GTL.jpg)

Bet they forgot about that one.  As memorable as the Indiana [thumbsup]

Which is surprising given they have a cutaway model of the engine in the Corse room.  When I went there for an investors' tour, they took us in and it was the first one on a stand to the left.  I doubt it's in that spot still, but hard to miss..

The size/shape/locations of the plates look just the same as the ones on the LC8, as do the fittings (seen center screen at 2:52).  I'm willing to bet this is the feature that they were referring to which allowed the cleaner emissions.  

and the tank?  :-\

Is made of paper, held together by bird spit.

It could be spit from an eagle.

A radioactive eagle on steroids infused with tiger blood.

But what if it's facing to the left?

Even...

Worse....!

they now have 1199 "panigale" on the sbk line up on the site.. coming soon

Hooray!! It's back again!

Back to the 1199 & Gas Charged Forks - they are shown on the bike in this teaser video at the 43s mark:

http://youtu.be/lXMEoPl-2so (http://youtu.be/lXMEoPl-2so)

Almost as cool as this picture... almost.

http://redux.com/stream/item/789086/Laser-Wolves (http://redux.com/stream/item/789086/Laser-Wolves)

that's a left handed guitarist wolf?!

hell for leather is saying 15k service intervals too

 [thumbsup]

One huge question is nagging me in the back of my mind.  Considering that the proposed airbox is part of the forward frame section, including the steering neck, and that this whole sub assembly bolts onto the top of the horizontal cylinder and to the top of the vertical cylinder what happens when it comes time to adjust valves..........? Does the whole front & top of the bike have to be stripped off to remove the valve covers?            Just curious...............

Secondary air system is an emission related system. On cars it usually affects the cold engine running and is shut off as engine temps climb to operating temps. Can't speak exactly for the motorcycle system though except that it promises to be another pain in the butt to deal with when it's not working properly.

The vacuum pump in the crankcase is completely different from the secondary air system and mostly reduces internal crank pressures caused by the action of the pistons compressing air in the cases when the pistons travel downward. This vacuum action would reduce crank blow by pressures. Ducati also refers to the vacuum as helping scavange oil back into the lower crank area but I dunno if that is a major design feature or a left over benefit.

if u look closely at the photos u can see the mounting bolts for the front
I'm going to guess thar most of the bike will have to come apart
hopefully the will put connectors for the wiring at easy to reach places

Exactly.  On the LC8, it's there to inject "fresh" air into the exhaust system, post combustion.  That way the gasses coming out the pipe are "cleaner" and the bike passes emission standards.

that is clever.   perhaps we should just divert exhaust gases out of a dummy port and have an empty pipe for the sniffers to go in... bazinga.


like the charcoal canisters and flapper valves, i suspect this is a system that will be removed/disabled by many owners & racers.

Ducati Superquadro: Beyond the Press Release

For those of you with extreme curiosity, or patience, here is the Facebook transcript of the conversation between journalists and the Ducati reps about this new Superquadro powerhouse:

http://www.motorcycledaily.com/2011/10/ducati-superquadro-beyond-the-press-release/ (http://www.motorcycledaily.com/2011/10/ducati-superquadro-beyond-the-press-release/)

\
i wish i had known about this.. i would have loved to get some qs in.  seems several folks got 4-5-6 q's in

Some engine details and pics here http://www.motonline.com/moto_scooter/articolo.cfm?codice=362243 (http://www.motonline.com/moto_scooter/articolo.cfm?codice=362243) (in Italian).

i like that the drive changes for each head are on opposite sides but it blows my mind that they are right on the crank

Where else would they go?

What purpose does the secondary air system have?

Chains on opposite sides help keep the cylinder heads symmetric. As for the chain location it could run off a secondary gear off the crank, as with the KTM twin:
http://www.ktm950.info/how/Orange%20Garage/Engine/Cam/camchain/uk_mouse_chain_replacement/uk_mouse_camchain.html (http://www.ktm950.info/how/Orange%20Garage/Engine/Cam/camchain/uk_mouse_chain_replacement/uk_mouse_camchain.html)

Any reason for not doing so is probably due to limiting engine weight and inertia.


Emissions.

And silly backfiring, especially in tunnels! [evil]


Maybe silly, but my biggest ah-ha! moment was when I realized what the big round thing between the cylinder heads was! [laugh]

This is the sound of the new Superquadro.
http://blip.tv/play/AYLYvQIC.html (http://blip.tv/play/AYLYvQIC.html)

That is the sound of heaven.

Heaven? 

Cut me some slack. It's almost 7pm on a Friday, my wife's birthday, and I'm still at work.

I was mainly asking if you really thought it sounded that good.   :D

Actually, any of the current, or past, twins with non stock cans sound better IMO. Stock exhaust doesn't make the heart go pitter-patter.

Yeah, but you were still cruising the forum............  ;D

I had nothing else to do.

So, I've been thinking about the middleweight replacement of the 848 based on the 1199...

I've two ideas formulating. With the ability to get an ultra high revving 2 cyl with the configuration would Ducati go back to trying to compete in the supersport 600 class with a new 750?

to get there and keeping near the same ratio of the superquadrata bore/stroke it could have a bore x stroke of 96mm x 51.8mm for a capacity of 749 cc's

if they want to keep the 848 size and stick with the racing series they have now, then it could have 100mm x 54mm for a capacity of 848 cc's

these both keep a bore x stroke ratio of about 1.85 and seem reasonable giving the 112mm x 60.6mm dimensions of the 1199


Thoughts?

I think Ducati has probably sold enough 848s that they don't care about supersport class racing.

And their lack of a bike that conforms to those class rules was a nice "out" for a class in which they weren't competitive.

On the other hand, if they can make a superquad at about 750 cc that has the same weight difference that the 848 did compared to the 1098, then it could happen and be competitive. 

They would have to make a new case though -- merely using thicker jugs would add too much weight. 

Bigger jugs are always a good thing  ;D

Only up to the point that my bike won't have future lower back problems. (snicker snicker)

from what I can tell it would add about 1.2 kg

wow, i figured no more than .75 kg!

your figure is probably more precise, I just did a rough calculation and really didn't think to hard on the formulas

i weighed a pair of M600 cylinders vs a pair of M800.  the walls on the 600 are noticeably thicker.

they actually would only be 8mm thicker. (112mm - 96mm)/2

right 8mm thick by the height, about 60-65mm

What? They don't have to be thicker, you just don't machine as big a whole in the cases...  People bore their cases for bigger cylinders with some regularity, doing it at the factory level (boring the initial cylinder hole smaller than the 1199's) would be easy, I'd think.

They don't unless you use the same engine case for two different engines, which ducati regularly does.

that's why the M400 weighs more than the M600.

The point is that if ducati is going to make a superquad 750, they need to have a different engine case (same one with smaller holes) so the jugs can maintain the same wall thickness and get a weight advantage.

Some leaked pics before the launch later today

(http://i655.photobucket.com/albums/uu274/rac3r786/P3.jpg)

(http://i655.photobucket.com/albums/uu274/rac3r786/P1.jpg)

(http://i655.photobucket.com/albums/uu274/rac3r786/P5.jpg)

(http://i655.photobucket.com/albums/uu274/rac3r786/P2.jpg)

(http://i655.photobucket.com/albums/uu274/rac3r786/P4.jpg)

Can't wait for the official release for better pictures!

+1... Fairings look goofy to me at first glance.  Excited to see official pictures and pricing for N.A. 

Well...

Huh. Yup, it's a motorcycle.

The tail-lights look like the designer wasn't quite sure to use the space usually reserved for exhaust.

The nose is pretty beak-ey, but I think it looks alright. The fairings give it a very aggressive look.

The RSV4-esque tail means that, should there ever be a biposto version, your lady friend better be tiny.

Those mirrors... holy God. Talk about an afterthought.

Also looking forward to the hi-res official pictures. And, as ever, no final judgment until I see one in person.

+2....
waiting for better pics   [coffee]

(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y54/TheoAftonomos/1199.jpg)

Anyone want to hazard a guess as to fuel capacity?

Assuming that beneath that tank is a gigantic airbox, the fuel tank looks quite small.

 Mabey now just the fuel tank, isn't the frame supposed to be the air box?

I like the front nose.  To me it's finally reshaping itself out of the boring look it's had these past years and somewhat resembles the Cedici which I've said they should keep in it's design.    Note:  I love the Tamburini and 999.  

I do hate where they put that rear shock.

+3

Taillights look cool to me. Small tail is cool. Exhaust location is cool.

The exhaust header guard thing under the seat looks kinda odd. Rear shock sux. The nose from the side view looks like an early 2000's Honda 600 due to the bottom of the air ram sticking out.

Can't wait to see the official pics.

i can dig it.

from a designers perspective.

the body panels look like a series of aborted starts and stops with no continuity

the mirrors look like they looked at practicality rather than design. not a bad comprimise on something that's only needed for street. they are forward wide and high.

tail section, not smooth styling especially underneath. and biposto will be a joke.

the exhaust was probably meant to clean up the rear and reduce underseat heat, but the rear header looks like it will ruin both. I do like the dual sided exits though. and the weight being low is great for stock. but going aftermarket light will change center of gravity to higher point.

The shock placement... mechanically cool, again this is a function over form here. the canister though should have been a remote placement somewhere else. what a very complex linkage. rising rate like the old sbk but horizontal.

the nose... elements of the 916/996/998, 999 and 1098/1198. large opening but wierd kink in rear/side  of opening. one of the aborted starts.

the tank.. more mosterish than sbk. very low ramp for support.

Some more info

Official release here in the UK is 6pm today

What I liked:

- The tank! Not sure if it flows well with the sharp edges of the fairings, but I still dig it.
- Tail lights
- Exhaust. I want to see what Termi comes up with since it won't be so much about looks.
- The nose, don't know why

What I didn't like:

- Suspension canister. Completely out of place.
- Fairing section next to the tank.
- The mirrors of course.

The tank and the fairings just don't go together.  It looks like when someone add's full fairings to a Monster.  It kind of looks good but just doesn't quiet flow the way it should. Can't wait to see good pictures though.

The tank doesnt flow cuz they plan to add a round spot and call it Monster 1199, the first Liquid cooled Monster since ... *BUZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ BUZZZZZZZ*

Damn morning call !  [evil]

I don't really like that paintjob, but overall I like it. Not sure it is better looking than previous Ducati SBK's. We'll need a few months for it to soak in and make another evaluation.

+1

well...


i think it looks good in red:

http://youtu.be/vVKLl-ZBUwg (http://youtu.be/vVKLl-ZBUwg)

Wow, I know that is a promotional video so the bike is supposed to look good, but it looks awesome.  The pictures of the tri-color painted Panigale look terrible compared to the red one in the video.  The fairings are more organic and rounded and they match the tank better than what was shown in those earlier tri-color pics.

The only thing I could nit-pick right now is the muffler might look better if it was coated black.

true that.

agree the red allows the fairings to be more fluid. 

Understatement. It looks sick in red. 0:17   [drool]

I like the wheels with the three sets of three spokes.  These are a little different from what we've seen.

(http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/wp-content/gallery/2012-ducati-1199-panigale/2012-ducati-1199-panigale-03.jpg)
(http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/wp-content/gallery/2012-ducati-1199-panigale/2012-ducati-1199-panigale-06.jpg)
(http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/wp-content/gallery/2012-ducati-1199-panigale/2012-ducati-1199-panigale-16.jpg)
(http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/wp-content/gallery/2012-ducati-1199-panigale/2012-ducati-1199-panigale-15.jpg)

ktm duke style belly exhaust is nice!

Random observations:

It has more personality than the 1098-series.

The top, partially-detached part of the side fairings adds some needed visual weight to the fuel tank.

Those vents in the tail are highly pointless, and seem like a vestigial feature from when Ducati superbikes had underseat exhaust.

Looks much better dressed all in red, as others have stated. I like the blacked-out swingarm.

Curious what aftermarket exhaust makers can do with it. I think it'd look pretty cool with the cans covered up, and only the exhaust ports peeking out from the bodywork.

The unpainted black plastic bits look cheap, and probably only exist to provide a reason to buy carbon fiber DP bits.

The more I study the pictures, the better I'm liking it.

+1

That tank looks tiny sitting on top of the bike

Good to see in the development video that it will be aluminum

 [drool]

Curious about oil catch ability of the lower fairing isn't there a requirement for track bikes for that

I like it.  Wonder what the insurance will be  ???

I'm going to guess "a whole big 'ol damn lot."

 [puke]

for racing orgs, yes... i'm sure the aftermarket bodywork guys will have a solution.

Some, but mostly race orgs.   Ducati them self will have a solution so it can be raced!

+11tybillion

Through on some Boom Tubes, a Givi topcase, and gimble cup holder and it's perfect!

I agree, except I like the paint. Now don't get me wrong here and don't accuse me of blasphemy in the adoration drooling rush of a new model appreciation. I love this bike and especially in the Tricolore scheme.

However, it is an evolution of, and not wildly radical change of, what has come previously. The front is highly reminiscent of the 1098 series with some minor changes. The tail end treatment is the most noticeable cosmetic change. I will give all appreciation due to the technical improvements too.

But for all those folks that had a hate type attitude towards the last model but who now love this one I say phooey on you.

Not saying that the Panigale isn't a beautiful step forward, it is, but just that the previous models were pretty darn good too.  Way better looking than anyone else had to offer with the possible exception of the MV F4.   [Dolph]

I love the 916-body bikes.

I've always liked the 999. I dig the art-deco train nose.

I was always lukewarm on the 1098 series. It felt like an apology, and looked a bit "designed-by-committee" in places. Good enough, but never really got me going.

While I have some (previously stated) niggles with parts of the 1199, the design is growing on me, and I think that as a whole it's a better looking bike than its immediate predecessor.

Such language!! 

Hahaha. Best description of it yet. Now that's all I can think of.

Speaking of.... Ducati really should have done an Art Deco-esque logo for that bike. That would have been cool.