Ducati Monster Forum

Anyone have any success with this setup? I've gone through two Ignitech ignition units since installing these coils. Same failure mode each time.

I'm getting one of the ignitions replaced by our guy Chris (thanks for all your help along the ways) and he is also sending me a new set of coils. I REALLY hope I can run them with some confidence that maybe I got a bad coil somehow.....they measure well at 5.5 and 5.8Ohms

I put the stock coils back on, wired it all up and it seems to be working fine now. So I either have had 1 ignition fail on me randomly (but coincidentally right after i put the red coils in) and had a second one DOA....OR I had a bad coil in there which toasted the ignition units.

The spark from the CA coils was impressive and much stronger than stock.....but if it wont work with the ignitech, I cant make use of it!

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UPDATE

this thread has gone onto page 8 at the time of this writing. We have covered a lot and it boils down to this:

The spark plugs used with the ignitech must be a resitor type plug. NGK has them marked with NGK R and there is an R int he part number. (full part number breakdown here partnumberkey.pdf (http://www.ngksparkplugs.com/techinfo/spark_plugs/partnumberkey.pdf)

With these plugs and STOCK coils everything is fine. I am on a fine wire of trust in these units now, so until I have my dead (3 now) ignitech units repaired, I will not try to move on to using the ExactFit red coils. Once I am able to have a  backup ignitech on hand, I will try the red coils and see what happens.

So right now I cann confirm a
D8EA plugs with red coils kills ign in a matter of minutes (2 instances of this)
D8EA plugs with stock black coils kill ign in matter of hours (one instance of this)

DR8EA is good with stock coils. Red coil info to come later.

UPDATE 2

DR8EA plugs with the Ca-Cycleworks red coils seem to work well. I only rode about 100mi with them, but in all of my other failures, it happened within this timeframe. I will post here if it does eventually fail, but I think we're set now.

update3: plenty of time with the red coils now to say they are good to go with the ignitech, just use a R type plug.

NOBODY here has seen this configuration successful?   ???

how about tried and failed?

I have an Ignitech running on my 95 SS with dynas (from Chris several years ago).  No problems, the whole thing works well.  My TCIP4 unit is one of the older ones though..

Man, I wanted to chime in - "Hey, done it and had no problems!"  but...


... then I realized I have Dyna's that Chris used to sell on the Monster with the Ignitech. That said, the Ignitech did need to be replaced one time - unsure why.   Worked great since then.

The M900 "fixer-upper" I'm working on has a set of the ExactFit coils for it, but I haven't moved towards replacing the ignition boxes just yet - I've got a set of the DP 1.1 boxes for it, as well as the OEM units, and was going to see if all that would work out alright and save that money for another day.


Let me know what you end up learning though, I'm interested.

on a separate but related note - I don't see the ignitech listed on the CA-Cycleworks website any more?

No you dont, and its not a separate note at all. They (Ignitech, not CA-Cycles) are just too much of a customer service headache. Very little support.  [bang]


In order to generate such a stronger spark, I think the newer coils must have a lower inductance since the DC ohms reading is the same.

This would allow them to charge much faster, requiring a shorter dwell time. I still had my dwell time set to long for the stock coils. When  I get spares of everything on hand, I am going to see just how long it takes for the coils to charge up. I will then set my Dwell accordingly and hope everything works!!

Did he decide to drop them?

I was dreaming of a future where I rigged up a motogadget and use the ignitech's tach-signal output to drive it

Quote from: avizpls on April 27, 2011, 08:57:36 AM
No you dont, and its not a separate note at all. They (Ignitech, no CA-Cycles) are just too much of a customer service headache. Very little support.  [bang]

yeah, they stink when it comes to dealing with them.  i don't know what the reason is, but they could sell those things like hotcakes if they'd fix their support.

partner with some american company so people have a local person to pregnant dog at.  the main reason i've seen people avoiding them is the support/cust service.

That's a real bummer.   (Wonder how hard it'd be to make a competing product 'round here: clone the basic tech and make your own software to accomplish the same and/or additional goals.)

Quote from: j v on April 27, 2011, 09:30:53 AM
That's a real bummer.   (Wonder how hard it'd be to make a competing product 'round here: clone the basic tech and make your own software to accomplish the same and/or additional goals.)

crack it open.

my gut feeling is that there is a 2716 eeprom inside and that's about it.  you wouldn't need more than that.

YOU crack it open.


i may very well source a 'spare' for such experimentation down the road - would love to put in the hands of the talented and say "i want it to do x,y,z - here's what it does now and here are the shortcomings i need 'fixed'".

Quote from: j v on April 27, 2011, 09:38:51 AM
YOU crack it open.


i may very well source a 'spare' for such experimentation down the road - would love to put in the hands of the talented and say "i want it to do x,y,z - here's what it does now and here are the shortcomings i need 'fixed'".

if you decide to do that, i'll split it with you.  i'd love for someone to make the same setup with a USB.  i have a feeling that 90% of it is epoxy fill.

I have two units, fully functional except for the ch1 output. Ch2 is still good....



which makes them useless for my bike.....but still functional

Quote from: avizpls on April 27, 2011, 10:28:43 AM
I have two units, fully functional except for the ch1 output. Ch2 is still good....



which makes them useless for my bike.....but still functional

want to relinquish one for the betterment of humanity?

Considering it. But I would be actively involved. The only thing I am really lacking right now is a microprocessor development platform.

It will depend on where I can get myself with these new coils Chris sent out. That will have to wait until after May 14th, when I will have a break in racing to take the bike out of commission.

Quote from: ducatiz on April 27, 2011, 10:12:47 AM
if you decide to do that, i'll split it with you.  i'd love for someone to make the same setup with a USB.  i have a feeling that 90% of it is epoxy fill.

In the "ducatiz / j v" version, sure would be nice for fitment if made in a convenient, nearly-identical size of a single OEM kokusan unit - with well-labeled wiring harness - tach-output pigtail already installed in plug with blanking plug for those not using it.    


and if dreaming, i might dream big:
- perhaps temp sensor input to modify advance if things are getting above a safe temperature
- similar pigtail w/ blank for TPS - plugs approipriate for keihin fcr-mx - get real creative and make retrofit tps modules for banked 39/41's, need two and a small third part if using split singles - giving a complete fuel-ignition map.
- fuel pump signal for more than turning on an electric fuel pump: electronic control over fuel pump delivery, and adjust flow rate for fuel consumption - accessory single-in, single-out 5/16" barb-fitting fuel pump and wiring loom, sold separately
- low fuel light input - triggering reduced fuel consumption characteristics in mapping (software on/off: could turn off for trackday folks, etc so they don't get the low fuel reduced-performance race-outcome decider as seen occur by accident at the pro level)


it would be a complete management system for the carburetted bikes and retro-fit carburetted bikes
Could have Three wiring harnesses available:
 1. Normal, two-trigger carbie style
 2. FI alternator case sensor / layshaft-gear recessed-tooth pickup style
 3. A single trigger carbie style trigger where second cylinder's timing is based off first pickup and separately adjustable if necessary

i recall having a much longer list of ideas at one point that included side-stand trigger input among others (digital fusebox, headlight control, relays/flashers, etc - like a Motogadget M-Unit that also controlled the ignition curve, etc.)

Quote from: avizpls on April 27, 2011, 10:56:14 AM
Considering it. But I would be actively involved. The only thing I am really lacking right now is a microprocessor development platform.

It will depend on where I can get myself with these new coils Chris sent out. That will have to wait until after May 14th, when I will have a break in racing to take the bike out of commission.

http://www.sivava.com/EPROM_Programmer_4.html (http://www.sivava.com/EPROM_Programmer_4.html)

16 bit eprom programmer

http://www.progshop.com/shop/programmer/BX32/eprom-programmer.html (http://www.progshop.com/shop/programmer/BX32/eprom-programmer.html)

32 bit programmer

Quote from: j v on April 27, 2011, 10:56:25 AM
In the "ducatiz / j v" version, sure would be nice for fitment if made in a convenient, nearly-identical size of a single OEM kokusan unit - with well-labeled wiring harness - tach-output pigtail already installed in plug with blanking plug for those not using it.    

if you're going to do that, then split the function into two modules, each the same size as the factory models with pickup/sparker plugs on both. 

as far as having separate channels for each cylinder, they could just be identical units.  maybe a serial sync to program them at once... 

QuoteThey (Ignitech, no CA-Cycles) are just too much of a customer service headache. Very little support.  bang head

In what way have they failed w support?

Quoteyeah, they stink when it comes to dealing with them.

What did they do when you dealt w them?

Quote from: greenmonster on April 27, 2011, 05:45:09 PM
In what way have they failed w support?


What did they do when you dealt w them?

i had a series of questions about the units and got very slow responses and finally they stopped replying altogether.  some of the problem, i think, is english facility which is no one's fault but if they are selling to an english speaking audience, they need to address that.

i had several issues with the unit that i tried to address and i simply could not get a straight answer.  i wanted more information on the interface.  also, i was trying to get a straight answer about why they won't use USB (given the PCIII has no problem with it, for instance)..  and so on.

the main thing was that my emails took up to a week for a reply.  and email was the only option for support.

Sorry to hear that.

I have opposite experience.
But their mails are a bit short sometimes.

I'm running Kelley coils and the Igniteck TCIP 4 V80 version. Runs great and no advance delay.

Set it up with shift light and rev limiter functions. Had to use the later software as the version in the kit was for the older V75 model. I just downloaded it from the website. Got a USB adaptor and software disc to run it from a local computer store. I got mine from Chris with his coils and it's the best thing I've done besides FCRs. Brad Black sent me some maps and gave support. I didn't even know he stocked them, just knew he fitted 'em.

If Chris has stopped selling them then get them from Australia! [laugh] Maybe you better get them from Brad as he speaks English (Oz style). I know the OZ dollar is strong now but the support would be worth it.

Quote from: j v on April 27, 2011, 10:56:25 AM
In the "ducatiz / j v" version, sure would be nice for fitment if made in a convenient, nearly-identical size of a single OEM kokusan unit - with well-labeled wiring harness - tach-output pigtail already installed in plug with blanking plug for those not using it.    


and if dreaming, i might dream big:
- perhaps temp sensor input to modify advance if things are getting above a safe temperature
- similar pigtail w/ blank for TPS - plugs approipriate for keihin fcr-mx - get real creative and make retrofit tps modules for banked 39/41's, need two and a small third part if using split singles - giving a complete fuel-ignition map.
- fuel pump signal for more than turning on an electric fuel pump: electronic control over fuel pump delivery, and adjust flow rate for fuel consumption - accessory single-in, single-out 5/16" barb-fitting fuel pump and wiring loom, sold separately
- low fuel light input - triggering reduced fuel consumption characteristics in mapping (software on/off: could turn off for trackday folks, etc so they don't get the low fuel reduced-performance race-outcome decider as seen occur by accident at the pro level)


it would be a complete management system for the carburetted bikes and retro-fit carburetted bikes
Could have Three wiring harnesses available:
 1. Normal, two-trigger carbie style
 2. FI alternator case sensor / layshaft-gear recessed-tooth pickup style
 3. A single trigger carbie style trigger where second cylinder's timing is based off first pickup and separately adjustable if necessary

i recall having a much longer list of ideas at one point that included side-stand trigger input among others (digital fusebox, headlight control, relays/flashers, etc - like a Motogadget M-Unit that also controlled the ignition curve, etc.)

and software to run from android or ipad

Quote from: monsta on May 02, 2011, 05:06:41 AM
and software to run from android or ipad

how will you connect it to the Ipad?  No serial or USB

FWIW to add, I blew another Ignitech this weekend on-track for no apparant reason while using the STOCK coils.

Ignitech are garbage! Both the people and the product.

Quote from: avizpls on May 02, 2011, 05:29:21 AM
FWIW to add, I blew another Ignitech this weekend on-track for no apparant reason while using the STOCK coils.

Ignitech are garbage! Both the people and the product.

wow.  another?? did htey replace the last one?

wtf?

I wonder if it's a voltage surge?  maybe an in-line fuse on the power (13) line?

but its the OUTPUT that drops.

This was at my trackday yesterday. I jsut packed it in and went home and promised myself I wouldn't let it ruin my day.

So I havent really diagnosed it too far yet. Odds are though that its the same as the ones before.


That, and with the new version 80, the bike wont run right with the PC connected. The software also crashes if you try and run the bike with tit connected. Its just plain junk. Thats why CA stopped selling it, and thats why Im stopping using it. Quick shifter be damned.

I have a version 75 and it hasn't had those problems.... I wonder if they just screwed up on the update...

I know the output drops, but my question was more to the cause of the failure.  I am wondering if transient voltage could do it, it's not like the electrics are that sophisticated.  put a 12v 0.5A quick blow fuse inline and see what transpires...

so buy ANOTHER one?

no thanks. 3 is enough.   [thumbsdown]

Quote from: avizpls on May 02, 2011, 07:40:24 AM
so buy ANOTHER one?

no thanks. 3 is enough.   [thumbsdown]

so they didn't replace the prior ones????

I could be wrong, but I'm guessing you haven't had the pleasure of dealing with these fools.

If by replace, you mean allow me to buy new, yes.

Quote from: avizpls on May 02, 2011, 07:58:21 AM
I could be wrong, but I'm guessing you haven't had the pleasure of dealing with these fools.

If by replace, you mean allow me to buy new, yes.

no, i've emailed plenty with them trying to get questions answered, but i am surprised they wouldn't offer you something for a failed unit.  wtf?

Part of it is that I am sick of wasting my breath dealing with them. Its so frustrating.

I sent them an email basically saying they suck, their product is a joke, the support is deplorable, and I want a refund.

not the way to make friends, but after everything Ive gone thru trying to work WITH them, make the beast with two backs it. They have the option now of working FOR me or not at all.

i had one replaced that simply stopped responding all together one time, and I'd have the software freeze on me infrequently (but enough to note)


i hope the one i've got now doesn't shit the bricks.



anybody using Silent Hektik?

Quote from: j v on May 02, 2011, 12:27:54 PM
i had one replaced that simply stopped responding all together one time, and I'd have the software freeze on me infrequently (but enough to note)


i hope the one i've got now doesn't shit the bricks.



anybody using Silent Hektik?

a few european guys pn the pantah list are but $$$$$$ sheesh!

...but if it works long-term?


...and has similar adjustability through selectable curves?

Quote from: ducatiz on May 02, 2011, 05:07:49 AM
how will you connect it to the Ipad?  No serial or USB

the ipad  does connect to usb, thats how you connect to itunes  (but I find it annoying so I dont use it)   
maybe an itune for bikes!  :D

I was actually thinking android, because I have an android phone and thought it'd be cool to be able to tune out on the road without having to take the laptop.

I had problems wiith my ignitech after a couple of track days. I had taken my standard modules out with me so I just swaped them back in. I think the problem was heat, because when I refitted the ignitech after everything had cooled it was ok.
I've since moved it to a cooler spot and had no dramas (tho, I havn't done any more track days with it)

Is it the version 80 or 75 or both that`s having problems?

Quote from: ducatiz on May 02, 2011, 05:29:56 AM
wow.  another?? did htey replace the last one?

We (California Cycleworks) replaced more than a few at our cost. The ones we sent back to Ignitech in CZ were returned to us with the explanation that nothing was wrong with the units which were dead on arrival or sudden failures on otherwise stable running motorcycles.

There is one small batch of TCIP4's coming that I am giving to customers as warranty replacements. Ignitech owe me a few $thousand for these (and more) replacements before we buy any more. I would advise against buying that brand until they can guarantee support. I've lost $$$$ on them, so they're done getting the free support from Ca Cycleworks.

Gud times,
Chris

Bummer. 


But I suppose that brings up the point that it can't be that hard to make a 'good' version of such a device... Or perhaps figure out a way to get something setup with Silent Hektik, Jako Motorsport, or AS Uotani.

Silent Hektik Option 1: http://www.silent-hektik.com/Duc_M-SS.htm (http://www.silent-hektik.com/Duc_M-SS.htm)
Silent Hektik Option 2: http://www.silent-hektik.com/Duc_PB.htm (http://www.silent-hektik.com/Duc_PB.htm)

Jako Motorsport Option: http://www.jako-motorsport.de/angebote/zuendanlage.html (http://www.jako-motorsport.de/angebote/zuendanlage.html)

AS Uotani Option # 00502: http://www.asuotani.com/fpkit.html (http://www.asuotani.com/fpkit.html)

QuoteThe ones we sent back to Ignitech in CZ were returned to us with the explanation that nothing was wrong with the units which were dead on arrival or sudden failures on otherwise stable running motorcycles.

That bit is sooo strange, did you try them when they came back? They were still bad?
Is it newer version 80 & Exakt-fit coils that don`t match or what?

Quote from: chris on May 03, 2011, 07:47:44 PM
We (California Cycleworks) replaced more than a few at our cost. The ones we sent back to Ignitech in CZ were returned to us with the explanation that nothing was wrong with the units which were dead on arrival or sudden failures on otherwise stable running motorcycles.

There is one small batch of TCIP4's coming that I am giving to customers as warranty replacements. Ignitech owe me a few $thousand for these (and more) replacements before we buy any more. I would advise against buying that brand until they can guarantee support. I've lost $$$$ on them, so they're done getting the free support from Ca Cycleworks.

Gud times,
Chris

I had no idea it was so bad.  They have really f**ed themselves for the USA market.  Chris was the only vendor who stepped up to import them and support them in the USA.

It's a real shame, such a great concept.

Now I wonder if their issue with using serial vs USB is more of a design problem they have...

Quote from: j v on May 03, 2011, 07:58:44 PM
Bummer. 


But I suppose that brings up the point that it can't be that hard to make a 'good' version of such a device... Or perhaps figure out a way to get something setup with Silent Hektik, Jako Motorsport, or AS Uotani.

Silent Hektik Option 1: http://www.silent-hektik.com/Duc_M-SS.htm (http://www.silent-hektik.com/Duc_M-SS.htm)
Silent Hektik Option 2: http://www.silent-hektik.com/Duc_PB.htm (http://www.silent-hektik.com/Duc_PB.htm)

Jako Motorsport Option: http://www.jako-motorsport.de/angebote/zuendanlage.html (http://www.jako-motorsport.de/angebote/zuendanlage.html)

AS Uotani Option # 00502: http://www.asuotani.com/fpkit.html (http://www.asuotani.com/fpkit.html)

All of those suck, IMHO.  Anything that involves more than swapping the CDI boxes and MAYBE upgrading the pickups is overdoing it.  There is no reason to do all of that.

The cause of the problems are unknown.

I had an 80 die with stock coils, so its not necessarily the ExactFit/V80 combo that's a killer.      

My next step is to stop using ch1 and see if I can get a unit to die that way. I have a map that will run cyl1 off of ch 1 and 4 (ch1 being dead) and cyl2 from ch2 and 3.

Maybe with the extra "auto" settings they have monitoring ch1 with some current-sense resistor, they are overloading that sink. We'll see and I'll try and keep this updated with what I find as I find it. This isnt my only headache now, so whatever  [wine]

I got set up a wiring harness to swap in my stock units quickly though. I need to put the tank back on and do a full diagnosis of the elctrical system (stator and regulator basically.) before I connect another Ignitek to it.

Oh, and also, for anyone who hasnt figured it out, CA Cycleworks are NOT the problem here. They've done more to help me than Ignitech themselves.

Quote from: avizpls on May 04, 2011, 04:48:58 AM
Oh, and also, for anyone who hasnt figured it out, CA Cycleworks are NOT the problem here. They've done more to help me than Ignitech themselves.

amen.   chris has been great

Quote from: j v on May 04, 2011, 05:27:07 AM
amen.   chris has been great

yeah, kudos for sticking his d*** out there to offer something like this and dealing with the hassles. 

i'm just surprised there isn't more on the web about ppl complaining about it, but then again, i can't search in Czech.

your googlefu is weak, grasshoppa.           you need mad skillz.

Quote from: j v on May 04, 2011, 06:23:46 AM
your googlefu is weak, grasshoppa.           you need mad skillz.

well, it's more like sloth considering my mother-in-law speaks czech, hungarian and romanian... sigh

I just got an email citing this specific thread. They're watching us..... lol  [thumbsup]

I went back and edited my recent post. They corrected me that it is ch1 and 4 together and ch 2 and 3.

I must say, Im cautiously optimistic that this will pan-out to OK. It may take some time shipping back and forth, but they have been more communicative recently.

Quote from: avizpls on May 04, 2011, 07:38:39 AM
I just got an email citing this specific thread. They're watching us..... lol  [thumbsup]

I went back and edited my recent post. They corrected me that it is ch1 and 4 together and ch 2 and 3.

hopefully they get some idea that this isn't good press for them and step up to the plate and address the problems.

Quote from: ducatiz on May 04, 2011, 07:45:39 AM
hopefully they get some idea that this isn't good press for them and step up to the plate and address the problems.

Yeah, like I just edited to add: I must say, Im cautiously optimistic that this will pan-out to OK. It may take some time shipping back and forth, but they have been more communicative recently.

edit: I edit too much  [cheeky]

I hope things do work out.


My decision to purchase another Ignitech versus an one of the alternatives depends on it.

Quote from: avizpls on May 04, 2011, 07:47:02 AM
Yeah, like I just edited to add: I must say, Im cautiously optimistic that this will pan-out to OK. It may take some time shipping back and forth, but they have been more communicative recently.

editL I edit too much  [cheeky]

well i still want one of the units you have.  my dremel is itching to slice something.  i have a friend in mill valley who is a chip designer, he said he could hack it and copy the basic function in about a week, then make an ASIC for it, the packaging would be up to me... i might jus do it..

But if they can step up and make their own product right, they deserve a chance to do that. Until they tell me to piss-off, Im not going to reverse engineer their product.

Besides. It doesn't require any reverse engineering. a 2V ignition system is not that complicated.  I could make one of these myself if I felt like taking on that effort. I just dont. I should be able to pay a company to do it, and thats where Ignitech comes in.

Quote from: avizpls on May 04, 2011, 07:54:02 AM
But if they can step up and make their own product right, they deserve a chance to do that. Until they tell me to piss-off, Im not going to reverse engineer their product.

Besides. It doesn't require any reverse engineering. a 2V ignition system is not that complicated.  I could make one of these myself if I felt like taking on that effort. I just dont. I should be able to pay a company to do it, and thats where Ignitech comes in.

I hear you, I just don't think you're going to get much.  Chris was a vendor of their product, no idea how many he sold for them, and look at his situ.  Seems they've had plenty of opportunity to behave...

Quote from: avizpls on May 04, 2011, 07:54:02 AM
But if they can step up and make their own product right, they deserve a chance to do that. Until they tell me to piss-off, Im not going to reverse engineer their product.

Besides. It doesn't require any reverse engineering. a 2V ignition system is not that complicated.  I could make one of these myself if I felt like taking on that effort. I just dont. I should be able to pay a company to do it, and thats where Ignitech comes in.

+1

Brad explains enough about them here:

http://bikeboy.org/ducati2vignition.html (http://bikeboy.org/ducati2vignition.html)

for anybody technical enough to build them to know what it is they need to build. That explanation, a scope, a running bike, and enough free time will let you design your own. I suspect though that you'll run into the same problems Ignitech have - theoretically it's an easy job. Getting it running in the garage or on the dyno wouldn't be too hard at all. Making it work reliably over time in the crazy environment of a motorcycle and its electrical system is a whole other ballgame...

big

Quote from: avizpls on May 04, 2011, 07:38:39 AM
I just got an email citing this specific thread. They're watching us..... lol  [thumbsup]

cool! 
maybe the next version will incorporate some of the ideas mentioned by jv...

Quote from: monsta on May 05, 2011, 05:08:29 AM

cool! 
maybe the next version will incorporate some of the ideas mentioned by jv...

sure, you plunk down the cash, flog it, and let us know...

unfortunately, they've pissed off too many people by now... :-/

Quote from: ducatiz on May 05, 2011, 05:15:22 AM
sure, you plunk down the cash, flog it, and let us know...

unfortunately, they've pissed off too many people by now... :-/

I think I've got your point...

Quote from: monsta on May 05, 2011, 07:47:29 AM
I think I've got your point...

well good on ya!

The 4 channel trick didnt work. That whole "half" of the system must be shot. I sent them an email (and Im telling them here) that they really must not be able to help ME out in MY situation. I ask for a refund, and shipping costs if they want them back.

And no Im not giving them up now or thereafter. Maybe someday if I can find the ACTUAL problem since it must not be Ignitech  [roll]  I'll pay repair fees and get new ones. If I give them away, I wont have that option.

in that m900 motor i'm rebuilding, it would be a real advantage to have an adjustable ignition, but I'm concerned that I'll be fighting with dying units, etc, if I buy an ignitech (for that matter, fingers are crossed that the 2d one currently on my M900 stays alive)

so, anybody want to take a gamble on a japanese or german alternative with me?

i'm considering ordering one of the various items out there, might be more affordable if i was ordering more than one, would at least save by combined int'l shipping...

Quote from: j v on May 05, 2011, 01:42:40 PM
so, anybody want to take a gamble on a japanese or german alternative with me?

i'm considering ordering one of the various items out there, might be more affordable if i was ordering more than one, would at least save by combined int'l shipping...

i would be interested but all of those are far more complicated than the ignitech design (which may be part of the problem, but it shouldn't be).

There's no reason to need anything more than replacing the CDIs.  If Ducati can offer advance units that don't fail, then someone else can too. 

I have old Bosch BTZ type advance units which are 30 years old and still work great.  There is nothing peculiar about these bikes which means an programmable advance unit is by definition unstable.

I can't believe that adjustability is inherently unreliable/unstable.   perhaps there is an issue with fluctuations in voltage causing failure, or that in addition to heat, but it must be resolvable.



wonder how difficult it would be to petition the folks at motogadget to build me an "all-in-one" system off their M-Unit fuseblock/flasher/relay assembly that had a programmable ignition built in, with a single cable output to their gauge.

like the most rudimentary drawing here:

(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/_4iYlZ1m8UEM/TcMUS6TWcuI/AAAAAAAAGxU/k_50GMNw63s/s800/M-Unit%20Integrated%20with%20Ignitech-Device.jpg)

The M-Unit already can do a "lot", I'm imagining a fairly comprehensive unit to replace all the separated 'lectronics on the bike, leaving only the coils, output devices (headlights, gauge-display, turn signals, brake light, shift light, etc) and pickups/sensors still external (since none of these parts could be built in and serve their purposes), if that makes sense

Quote from: j v on May 05, 2011, 01:52:55 PM
wonder how difficult it would be to petition the folks at motogadget to build me an "all-in-one" system off their M-Unit fuseblock/flasher/relay assembly that had a programmable ignition built in, with a single cable output to their gauge.

that'd be cool..
I think I'll be getting an M-unit when I get around to tidying up the wiring. All in one would definately be on the shopping list.

I *believe* using the M-Unit will involve a bit of rewiring for sure, but really nothing extreme - more like the similar wiring issues related to installing an aftermarket gauge where the Ducati wiring may use different # of wires for a particular task (like instead of LH and RH indicator, the duc simply has a flasher indicator).

I like the idea of the M-unit because it takes up little more room than the OEM fuse block, and has the flashers built in, and can be coupled with the key-fob proximity sensor lock (M-Lock i believe).


My thought is the ignitech-like gadget could be built into this device, which would provide with adequate power (switched, conditioned, well grounded, etc) and further consolidate the electronics to a convenient spot. The location on the old bikes is certainly away from the motor, so heat is not so great a concern, and even if a slight concern still, a small electronics fan could be integrated into the unit.

Quote from: chris on May 03, 2011, 07:47:44 PM
We (California Cycleworks) replaced more than a few at our cost. The ones we sent back to Ignitech in CZ were returned to us with the explanation that nothing was wrong with the units which were dead on arrival or sudden failures on otherwise stable running motorcycles.

There is one small batch of TCIP4's coming that I am giving to customers as warranty replacements. Ignitech owe me a few $thousand for these (and more) replacements before we buy any more. I would advise against buying that brand until they can guarantee support. I've lost $$$$ on them, so they're done getting the free support from Ca Cycleworks.

Gud times,
Chris

Sorry to hear that, very bad news indeed. Good will is everything and they are losing it. To deal with a respected, high profile, high volume distributor like that is entrepreneurial suicide.

Quote from: j v on May 05, 2011, 02:22:47 PM
like the most rudimentary drawing here:

(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/_4iYlZ1m8UEM/TcMUS6TWcuI/AAAAAAAAGxU/k_50GMNw63s/s800/M-Unit%20Integrated%20with%20Ignitech-Device.jpg)

The M-Unit already can do a "lot", I'm imagining a fairly comprehensive unit to replace all the separated 'lectronics on the bike, leaving only the coils, output devices (headlights, gauge-display, turn signals, brake light, shift light, etc) and pickups/sensors still external (since none of these parts could be built in and serve their purposes), if that makes sense

i'd prefer a separate unit that can be removed.  combining everything means a SPOF and higher expense for the unit if it needs replacing.  combining the controls and sensors for the bike apart form the ignition makes sense, but not hte spark control.

howza 'boot a two-piece design where spark control was done with 2nd unit, connected directly to first unit via cable for reporting back rpm, etc. (would be useful for spark kill on quickshifters)

Quote from: j v on May 06, 2011, 12:15:14 PM
howza 'boot a two-piece design where spark control was done with 2nd unit, connected directly to first unit via cable for reporting back rpm, etc. (would be useful for spark kill on quickshifters)

That makes a lot more sense.  If you're smart, you make the output on the first box with rpm some sort of "open" design so other people can design their own boxes for it.

I dont want to speak too much on it so as to curse myself, but stay tuned for what I hope to be the solution! Fingers crossed!  [popcorn]

It could be the solution to many instances of failed ignitechs.....Cautiously optimistic

Will they replace the bad ones too?  If htey do that and make it right for Chris, then I see nothing wrong.

I dont know about them making it right with Chris. Thats a whole other issue itself. They've stuck their neck out pretttty far (to my direct benefit) and with no real help from Ignitech.

If this works, then I will most likely be paying if I want to have my dead units repaired.  [bang] But, thats the way it is I suppose. I'd like at least one spare.

I had a guy take a look at mine -- they are epoxy filled so all the guts are sitting inside, buried in epoxy.  It's a curious choice given other electronic devices (such as the PCIII) are not and work fine.  I wonder if they did it just to prevent people from cracking it open and duplicating the EEPROM

Quote from: ducatiz on May 09, 2011, 08:10:08 AM
\  I wonder if they did it just to prevent people from cracking it open and duplicating the EEPROM

Probably a mix of that and this is the easiest way to package them. A company like this will usually rightfully take some steps to protect IP

QuoteIt could be the solution to many instances of failed ignitechs.....Cautiously optimistic

So you`ll be able to find a real cause to these units failing?

I honestly hope so. What spark plug were you running when yours died?

I got my last and final ignitech yesterday (thanks Chris!) and I havent even hoooked it up yet. I will probably do that today. I will start it in the garage, then I will go out on it tomorrow....maybe later tonight. Either way, I'm not calling it just yet. It will need to make it thru a day at NJMP before I trust it again. (so I'll report back on monday morning with my conclusion). Keep your fingers crossed!

are you implying that spark plug choice is killing these units?

Thats whats being implied to me

Fortunately, I have had enough of a data set now that I will know pretty much for sure soon.

Quote from: ducatiz on May 09, 2011, 08:10:08 AM
I had a guy take a look at mine -- they are epoxy filled so all the guts are sitting inside, buried in epoxy.  It's a curious choice given other electronic devices (such as the PCIII) are not and work fine.  I wonder if they did it just to prevent people from cracking it open and duplicating the EEPROM

I think potting electronics in epoxy is a fairly common practice for electronic device that are subject to vibration.  Pretty sure the MSD ignitions are potted, or at least used to be.  I don't think potting would stop a serious EEPROM reverse engineering type, but not being one myself, I really don't know.

Bob

Quote from: Langanobob on May 10, 2011, 03:30:37 PM
I think potting electronics in epoxy is a fairly common practice for electronic device that are subject to vibration.  Pretty sure the MSD ignitions are potted, or at least used to be.  I don't think potting would stop a serious EEPROM reverse engineering type, but not being one myself, I really don't know.

Bob

Well you're right at least as far as the stock sparker boxes -- they are potted.  But the PCIII is not, just rubber mounted inside a metal case. 

Quote from: avizpls on May 10, 2011, 10:06:50 AM
Thats whats being implied to me

Please tell us soon. I'm sweating on my Igniteck. I'm running NGK Iridium plugs Resistor type DPR8EIX-9 or standard resistor type NGK DPR8EA-9. Could the issue be resistor Vs non resistor type plugs?

QuoteWhat spark plug were you running when yours died?

Mine is not dead, happy w it.
Really surprised, this is the first time I`ve heard of them dying.

Quote from: greenmonster on May 11, 2011, 03:42:07 AM
Mine is not dead, happy w it.
Really surprised, this is the first time I`ve heard of them dying.

How many have you used?  I assume ca-cycleworks has dealt with more than a sample size of 1.

I have had 1 and it is still working.  Therefore, I have only seen a 100% success rate.

I`ve used 3, my friend w mates 9, I know 3 more that uses it.
If it was a bad quality product in general, I think we all would have noticed that earlier in various Forums etc.

Quote from: greenmonster on May 11, 2011, 04:50:45 AM
I used 3, my friend w mates 9, I know 3 more that uses it.
If it was a bad quality product in general, I think we all would have noticed that earlier in various Forums etc.

what generation?  i.e. model?  70 75 80?

On my M900  1997 in summer 2007, that`s when I started the megathread at TOB.
3rd on my father`s Suz 400 last summer.
Monster, dunno version, probably 70 or 75, it did not have a default Duc setting nor Ducati Kokusan map.
Where do I find version number?

Quote from: koko64 on May 11, 2011, 02:35:33 AM
Please tell us soon. I'm sweating on my Igniteck. I'm running NGK Iridium plugs Resistor type DPR8EIX-9 or standard resistor type NGK DPR8EA-9. Could the issue be resistor Vs non resistor type plugs?

I was using DR8EA NGK plugs last year with the TCIP4 and Stock coils with no problem.

I wanted to upgrade to CA-Cycles red coils. Per there sites recommendation, I got D8EA plugs to go with them. (I just looked at the site and I dont see this recommendation. Maybe I was imagining it...either way, I did switch to the D8EA plugs)

Ignitions started dying. 3 to be exact. I changed variables on all three, but never thought of the plugs. I changed coils, wires etc.....

I put NGK plugs DR8EA in last night and it runs fine. I havent rode it yet, and  I wont until the track day this weekend so the real verdict comes after that.

But Ignitech says you must use a 'R' plug (which you are) and I inadvertently strayed away from 'R' plugs and my problems started. Everything adds up that yes, Non resistive plugs are the problem. I will feel more confident saying this on Monday....or I'lll have a different story all together.

That seems like an odd catalyst for the box to fail - don't big bore kits sometimes advise the use of different plugs too? 

yeah, all I can think of is BEMF. More resistance, less BEMF after the spark.  ??? fingers crossed it works, thats all.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counter-electromotive_force (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counter-electromotive_force)

Resistive plugs are recommended in many electronic ignition systems. Its not an unreasonable requirement, but a shame that they are SO dependant on it.





Lets not get ahead of ourselves, though. Previous failure modes leave me to believe there is still a moderately high probability of failure this weekend

y'know, when my ignitech failed, i was using the DCPR8E's like normal...but i suppose it may have been the D8EA's

Just another tidbit

I did put on my plate and lil headlight and went out for a 45minute ride around town. Survived that.

God, I hope this works!

Thanks for posting regarding the resistor type plugs.  I have an old ignitech unit I bought from Norm way back when they first started selling them.  It's been in my tool box for 3 years now.  I was just getting ready to install it when I read this post. 

When I get ready to hook it up, I will switch to the DR8EA as I am running D8EA now.   

so.....I made it through the day today without a hitch.

I....guess.....it was the....plugs!  [bang]  [clap]

That's a relief.
Now for a celebratory beer.

Quote from: avizpls on May 14, 2011, 03:33:20 PM
so.....I made it through the day today without a hitch.

I....guess.....it was the....plugs!  [bang]  [clap]

wowzers... that's great you figured it out.  now do they post that R plugs are required on their site?

Quote from: ducatiz on May 14, 2011, 08:41:24 PM
wowzers... that's great you figured it out.  now do they post that R plugs are required on their site?

They recommend it to avoid 'electrical disturbance' in the section that covers faults. They say to use resistor plugs and leads.

Now, when I spoke with them on the issue (email rather) I asked specifically if I should use resistive plugs AND resistive leads. Having not read this that you cite, I didnt know what answer to expect. The answer: Do NOT use resistor wires along with resistor plugs.

Whatever....it seems to work

andI have a ten pack of DR8EA plugs now

Quote from: avizpls on May 16, 2011, 05:12:31 AM
Now, when I spoke with them on the issue (email rather) I asked specifically if I should use resistive plugs AND resistive leads. Having not read this that you cite, I didnt know what answer to expect. The answer: Do NOT use resistor wires along with resistor plugs.

Whatever....it seems to work

andI have a ten pack of DR8EA plugs now

resistance is additive.  you'd use one or the other, that's what i've been told.  on old ducs, the bikes came with resistor spark caps -- no R plugs.

Im super stoked to have the QuickShifter functionality back.

Actually, the Igniteck site mentions resistor plugs and "connectors', so I'm guessing they mean plug caps. I'm running R plugs and NGK plug caps with the Kelley coils insulated 7mm wires.

Any of you sparkies have any thoughts?

Good it worked out.

From Ignitech FAQ:

Quotec) Interference (disturbance) â€" We recommend to use plugs or plug connectors with resistor.

What type of wires & caps are the Eact-fit coils sold with?

they are a non resitive setup and they are made to fit the threaded connectors as on the plug on left.


NGK R plugs are not necessarily resistive. It must have R in the part number. for example....
This is not necessarily a resistive plug.
(http://www.mrcproductions.com/quad/ngk/NGKR.jpg)


This is, as the part number is CR7EIX
(http://www.gsparkplug.com/shop/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/5e06319eda06f020e43594a9c230972d/c/r/cr7eix_1.jpg)

All NGK "R" plugs are resistor plugs:

http://www.ngksparkplugs.com/techinfo/spark_plugs/faq/faqresistor.asp (http://www.ngksparkplugs.com/techinfo/spark_plugs/faq/faqresistor.asp)

Quote from: avizpls on May 16, 2011, 07:00:40 AM
they are a non resitive setup and they are made to fit the threaded connectors as on the plug on left.


NGK R plugs are not necessarily resistive. It must have R in the part number. for example....
This is not necessarily a resistive plug.
(http://www.mrcproductions.com/quad/ngk/NGKR.jpg)

Huh. OK. I didnt think they were ALWAYS resistive.... [thumbsup]

this is the full breakdown of part number

http://www.ngksparkplugs.com/techinfo/spark_plugs/partnumberkey.pdf (http://www.ngksparkplugs.com/techinfo/spark_plugs/partnumberkey.pdf)

Quote from: avizpls on May 16, 2011, 07:07:09 AM
Huh. OK. I didnt think they were ALWAYS resistive.... [thumbsup]

this is the full breakdown of part number

http://www.ngksparkplugs.com/techinfo/spark_plugs/partnumberkey.pdf (http://www.ngksparkplugs.com/techinfo/spark_plugs/partnumberkey.pdf)

the R refers to their (formerly) proprietary resistor design in the plug.   i want to say they pioneered it, but i am not sure.  it would explain why old bikes had resistor spark CAPS but not resistor plugs.

good info thanks. Keep in mind that with as much as I DO know.....I was utterly unaware that there were two types of plugs, R and non-R  [thumbsdown]

Quote from: avizpls on May 16, 2011, 07:17:08 AM
good info thanks. Keep in mind that with as much as I DO know.....I was utterly unaware that there were two types of plugs, R and non-R  [thumbsdown]

:-)

Quotegood info thanks. Keep in mind that with as much as I DO know.....I was utterly unaware that there were two types of plugs, R and non-R

And maybe Chris was unaware, too, and this is just an unfortunate mix of parts which led to unit malfunction.
Very understandable & could have happened to anyone, I guess.
F sure could`ve happened to me, haven`t read the Ignitech FAQ until today..... :-[

Quote from: greenmonster on May 16, 2011, 08:14:22 AM
And maybe Chris was unaware, too, and this is just an unfortunate mix of parts which led to unit malfunction.
Very understandable & could have happened to anyone, I guess.
F sure could`ve happened to me, haven`t read the Ignitech FAQ until today..... :-[

I wonder what his reply will be on this? 

Well Chris didnt send me the plugs I used. I bought those all on my own. I THOUGHT I saw a recommendation  for them on his site, but now I don't and I may have never  [drink] /  [coffee]

I hope someone saves themselves a headache from all of mine.  [bang]

Quote from: avizpls on May 16, 2011, 08:29:35 AM
Well Chris didnt send me the plugs I used. I bought those all on my own. I THOUGHT I saw a recommendation  for them on his site, but now I don't and I may have never  [drink] /  [coffee]

I hope someone saves themselves a headache from all of mine.  [bang]

post a summary in your initial post?

the headache is usually reading through all of our bullshit

Quote from: ducatiz on May 16, 2011, 08:30:49 AM
post a summary in your initial post?

the headache is usually reading through all of our bullshit

good call. Lets find an avatar for that.....  [beer] no I used that one....


[clap]

Now, I know things are done differently by different manufacturers and in other countries, however -

I did not know there were any substantial resources on the Ignitech website. I did not know there were requirements for plugs. I did not receive a manual that included any of this, a "Read Me First" flyer, or any warning stickers on the apparatus.

I would not be paying for a replacement if it was plug related - its not up to me to do additional homework not advised or given notice of requiring when ordering a product and reading over the literature that comes with it.  I would would highly encourage the manufacturer to appropriately label the device with such a requirement if it would lead to total failure, and include the FAQ's along with a pamphlet-manual with the device. The disc could include this, but warnings such as this are common to be found in separate bright colored print outs with an electronic device, and common in the motorcycle-specific electronics area.

yeah, well....im sick of this activity--->    [bang]

so I'll just pay (im assuming it wont be outrageous but we'll see I guess) and have good backups at the ready. I'll put them on other projects even

I may also, but I need to check my spark plugs for the one that I had go dead - wouldn't start bike and wouldn't respond to computer...  not sure what was the cause of that, if it was resistor plug/wire related, or something else.

Quote from: avizpls on May 16, 2011, 10:22:42 AM
yeah, well....im sick of this activity--->    [bang]

so I'll just pay (im assuming it wont be outrageous but we'll see I guess) and have good backups at the ready. I'll put them on other projects even

so will you still sell me one for $50?  :-)

I find the use of the word "still" to be slightly confusing.

Probably not. I mean....I've been called a hoarder, but....I can use these to some extent. Race fuel/track map and a pump gas/street map unit comes to mind. I want to build a sick go-kart, and I have a KTM that could use one. There-thats 4

I'd really rather just keep them (in one piece) for myself.

Lets see how much they tell me for repair.

Quote from: avizpls on May 16, 2011, 11:05:10 AM
I find the use of the word "still" to be slightly confusing.

Probably not. I mean....I've been called a hoarder, but....I can use these to some extent. Race fuel/track map and a pump gas/street map unit comes to mind. I want to build a sick go-kart, and I have a KTM that could use one. There-thats 4

I'd really rather just keep them (in one piece) for myself.

Lets see how much they tell me for repair.

i am sure we would be good friends IRL, but you suck.  :-D

LOL I'll be sure to keep you in mind (as if I could avoid it) for potential unloading if repairs aren't worth it. Im hoping they will be reasonable about it though.

Quote from: avizpls on May 16, 2011, 11:21:11 AM
LOL I'll be sure to keep you in mind (as if I could avoid it) for potential unloading if repairs aren't worth it. Im hoping they will be reasonable about it though.

imagine a grown man crying in joy. 

that'll not be me.

i'll just be mildly happy.

i called NGK today to pick their brain about this matter. they said that using a non resistive plug on an aftermarket ignition system would interfere with the electromagnetic sensitive system that a non-restrictive spark plug would produce. by using the resistor plug would scramble the electromagnetic frequency produced by the spark plugs, allowing proper operation. they also mention any sensitive electrical system could be affected also.  Dyna, and MSD ignition systems were similar ones to name.

here's the resistor plugs for a belt driven 900

DCPR8E (Nickel plug with glass media resistor)
DCPR8EIX (Iridium plug with resistor)


sorry if i'm beating a dead horse with the same info.

That's a good summary

+1.  Thanks DL.

They're actually the plugs I've been using. That's a relief.

Seems Resistor plugs appear to be the norm with modern ignition systems nowdays.

Going to gave to check mine.

Interesting, I would never use anything but R plugs on modern bikes.  I've just assumed it was necessary for the EFI system.

I think I mentioned previously that older bikes had a resister in the plug cap and no R plugs.

Quote from: Düb Lüv on May 24, 2011, 07:20:22 AM
i called NGK today to pick their brain about this matter. they said that using a non resistive plug on an aftermarket ignition system would interfere with the electromagnetic sensitive system that a non-restrictive spark plug would produce. by using the resistor plug would scramble the electromagnetic frequency produced by the spark plugs, allowing proper operation. they also mention any sensitive electrical system could be affected also.  Dyna, and MSD ignition systems were similar ones to name.

here's the resistor plugs for a belt driven 900

DCPR8E (Nickel plug with glass media resistor)
DCPR8EIX (Iridium plug with resistor)


sorry if i'm beating a dead horse with the same info.

Does anyone know the difference between the above plugs and say a D8EA or DR8EA?

Quote from: turbodude on May 25, 2011, 10:21:00 AM
Does anyone know the difference between the above plugs and say a D8EA or DR8EA?

The plugs you mention don't have a projected tip.

One is not a resistor plug.

Do we need a projected tip?

Ive been running the DR8EA...

Quote from: avizpls on May 25, 2011, 10:54:46 AM
Do we need a projected tip?

Ive been running the DR8EA...

NGK seems to think you do:  DCPR8E

http://www.ngksparkplugs.com/part_finder/motorcycles/step4.asp?id=3926&type=reg (http://www.ngksparkplugs.com/part_finder/motorcycles/step4.asp?id=3926&type=reg)

Quote from: avizpls on May 25, 2011, 10:54:46 AM
Do we need a projected tip?

Ive been running the DR8EA...

It's what BCM used to put in my bike when they were there and what my tech still uses.

I believe NGK is right...

Quote from: ducatiz on May 25, 2011, 11:03:34 AM
NGK seems to think you do:  DCPR8E

http://www.ngksparkplugs.com/part_finder/motorcycles/step4.asp?id=3926&type=reg (http://www.ngksparkplugs.com/part_finder/motorcycles/step4.asp?id=3926&type=reg)

;D

fml.

the takeaway, then, seems to be the:

When using an Ignitech TCIP4 programmable ignition

1. Manufacturer of Coil is not relevant (Dyna, CA-Cycleworks, or OEM)
2. The sparkplugs (themselves) or the sparkplug caps on the wires must be "resistor type" to eliminate interference which causes the Ignitech device to fail.

  2.1. Proper sparkplugs, when not using resistor-cap sparkplug wires, include:
    2.1.1. DCPR8E - Projected Tip Resistor Type [Gap from NGK is 0.024) (Use non-resistor type wires)
    2.1.2. DCPR8EIX - Iridium Projected Tip Resistor Type (Use non-resistor type wires)

D = 12mm Thread Diameter
C = 5/8" Hex Size Construction
P = Projected Insulator Type
R = Resistor Type
8 = Heat Range (2 = Hotter - longer insulator nose; 11 = Cold - shorter insulator nose)(for heat sparkplug can handle/remove from combustion chamber - purpose is to avoid creating a hotspot and preignition/detonation at the too-hot end, and carbon fouling on the too-cold end. E.g. NGK Goldilocks Plugs.)
E = 19mm Thread Reach
(IX) = (Iridium and booster gap, I believe)


now, somebody go and remind me why it matters what the primary and secondary resistance (ohms) of the coils are again, pretty please. We can make an exhaustive sticky at some point where the info is all consolidated.

I think I recall a zero-ohm reading on the secondary resistance means its a bad coil, perhaps that applies to either reading.
I also recall reading that the resistance reading may show zero or 'bad' (outside of range) or the coil may function intermittently when it gets hot - perhaps why coils on the newer bikes are located closer to the frame's edges on newer models, rather than tucked up behind the airbox by the battery on the old ones (though I've never had a coil go bad on the Duc... but have received a batch - all eight - brand new Accel 'super' coils for the ol' chevrolet that were bad out of the box - then i learned people seem to avoid prestolite products who know what they are doing...)

 [drink] , koko?  ;D   I have... [beer]

What about original Champions, should be resistors, do they work w this setup?

Oops, let me rephrase that, j v.
Incompatible coils can cause a melt down of coils and/or ignition components ala Chris Kelley's experience on his tech site. I have seen it on a few bikes when the incorrect coils were fitted.

greenmonster, sounds like we are in the clear. [beer]

By my reckoning there would be an original plug that would be non resistor with resisitor plug caps/leads or a retrofit resistor plug that is now the standard OEM (Champion RA6HC).

Well the ignitech better be good. I bought chris's last one and bought both harnesses incase I want to upgrade to 1000/1100 in the future :-)

Hmm.  I have plenty of time to wait before needing something for the project monster 900, so I may wait to see if they reappear for sale by US vendor, or weigh alternatives if needing to order abroad anyhow.

Wonder if Rick's Motorsport Electrics would be interested in making such a product.

Quote from: j v on May 26, 2011, 04:47:14 PM
Hmm.  I have plenty of time to wait before needing something for the project monster 900, so I may wait to see if they reappear for sale by US vendor, or weigh alternatives if needing to order abroad anyhow.

I think Norm on TOB was selling them at one time, maybe it was just informally and I don't know if he ever set up a dealership, or whether he still has it if he did.   

Bob

Quote from: Düb Lüv on May 26, 2011, 04:22:00 PM
Well the ignitech better be good. I bought chris's last one and bought both harnesses incase I want to upgrade to 1000/1100 in the future :-)

The Igniteck is versatile.

As your engine mods grow the ignition can be tuned without the compromises of retarding the pickups with the 'set in stone' Kokusan map. Custom advance curves can be made to fit different engine configurations.
The advance curve can be adjusted for easy starting and smooth low speed operation. I had underestimated how much the Kokusan's rudimentary advance curve (and I use the word 'curve' loosely) contributes to rough and snatchy low rev operation. Engine response also has more snap in roll ons.
One can chase easy horsepower by fine tuning when on a dyno or allowing for fuel availability or a change in compression.
Actually having a rev limiter now is great and the unit will interface with a shift light which I have and use regularly. [evil]
Another thing I really like is the laptop monitoring of the operation of the pickups, revs, rate of advance, etc in real time.
I have not really explored the potential of the system, but I intend to.

As you can tell, I'm a big fan of the unit.
As long as the thing don't go 'pop'.

sorry for the thread jack, but has anybody had this problem before with the Ignitech?

i had to get a serial to usb adpator. when i have everything hooked up with the ignition on i cannot get the TCIP to communicate with the computer.

a prompt will say
"com opening error"

then software will open stating the PC is not connected.


i checked the wiring and the TCIP is getting power. i think i downloaded every driver, uninstalled and reinstalled all the software new and older versions. my only thoughts is to get a more generic serial to usb adaptor(i'm on my second one that has a mini processor inline) or try a different computer. hopefully i can find one with a 9 pin serial port.



*PROBLEM SOLVED*

the reason why i was getting the "COM OPENING ERROR" was i didn't sync the com port for the adapter to the TCIP4 tuning software.

when having the software open click on the COM file at the top left.

under Com there will be Com 1- Com 30 and Com Auto(which is a com scan).

i selected Com Auto and found the i was running on Com 3, then selected Com 3. you could probably just keep it on Auto if you wanted.


*SOFTWARE SUPPORT HEADSUP*
after i got the Com problem fixed, i was connected to the computer. but i was getting a software incompatible message saying the PC and Ignition module weren't running the same software.

i remember seeing on my module that there's a sticker reading "2CH v80 Ducati Kokusan". i was using the software that chris included which i guess was an older incompatible version. i remember seeing a version of TCIP software with v80 at the end. after tracking it down on the Ignitech website hidden under the TCIP4 module product information, downloaded the correct one and now my system i fully functional.

 [thumbsup]
Went through the same thing. Downloaded the V80 software and all was cool.

This is for the original post.

I running 3ohm dyna coils with the tcip4 and all seems well.

Wow, what a thread this has become.

Quote from: turbodude on May 25, 2011, 10:21:00 AM
Does anyone know the difference between the above plugs and say a D8EA or DR8EA?

(above plugs being the DCPR8EA)  Yes, the D8EA and DR8EA without the projected tip usually won't get closed by high compression pistons hitting them.

Quote from: greenmonster on May 25, 2011, 04:36:38 PMWhat about original Champions, should be resistors, do they work w this setup?

I was told by a Ducati mechanic early on to never use Champion plugs as their threads are "cut" and tend to screw up the heads. They said to always use NGK as they have rolled threads. I don't have access to Cham-peen and have been loving NGK for a couple decades already...

Quote from: koko64 on May 25, 2011, 05:22:16 PMIncompatible coils can cause a melt down of coils and/or ignition components ala Chris Kelley's experience on his tech site. I have seen it on a few bikes when the incorrect coils were fitted.

If the primary on the coils is too low resistance, the coils will melt out the igniters. Early on, my favorite setup was to run nology coils. But you had to have the early ignition modules with the midnight blue epoxy in them. The later all black epoxy modules didn't suffer the nology's at all and would melt out. I eventually stopped talking about it because no matter how big I wrote "We sell dyna coils because they are compatible with all Ducatis" people would call and ask if it worked on their bike and were worried about buying them.  [bang]

Quote from: ducatiz on May 25, 2011, 07:12:34 AM
Interesting, I would never use anything but R plugs on modern bikes.  I've just assumed it was necessary for the EFI system.

I'd never use resistor plugs on bikes. Why give away 1~3hp to heat? Every Ducati I've owned has gotten D8EA plugs... `92 900ss, `96 916, mh900e, 104hp `97 M966, `05 S2R800. A few others I didn't really ride long enough to service, so I didn't list them. Hitting the way back machine, my favorite were the DP8EVX-9. That "felt" the best compared to any plug I tested in my 900ss, even the iridiums.

Like I tell people that call seeking wisdom: "Do what lets you sleep at night".

In the case of Ignitech, it would have been fantastic if they would have treated us as well as even the average guy off the internet buying one of their modules. We've been selling these for years and I find it peculiar that all of a sudden, non resistor plugs are giving fits. And it coincides with a number of out-of-box failures...  ??? Which coincided with a cold shoulder from the Czech republic.  :-\

Bummer man. First off Chris, Thanks for your contribution - in my opinion it is invaluable and you've not once led me astray - if anything you've helped right the wrongs of others when I had been led astray and needed a compass reading or map back to the "right side of things."  With that said, do you think you will be investigating alternative modules for sales, such as the silent hektik, Jako-Motorsport, AS Uotani, or an all-new Chris Kelley designed Exact-Fit adjustable ignition device?

Quote from: chris on May 31, 2011, 02:40:27 PM
I'd never use resistor plugs on bikes. Why give away 1~3hp to heat? Every Ducati I've owned has gotten D8EA plugs... `92 900ss, `96 916, mh900e, 104hp `97 M966, `05 S2R800. A few others I didn't really ride long enough to service, so I didn't list them. Hitting the way back machine, my favorite were the DP8EVX-9. That "felt" the best compared to any plug I tested in my 900ss, even the iridiums.

1 hp is equivalent to about 40 BTU/minute.  I'd have to see for myself that much additional heat shedding.

That being said, given the issues with electronics on bikes, its either give up 1-3 hp as you say, or carry additional weight for shielding?

I dunno.  The spec was for R plugs, I used R plugs..  Drop the weight of the bike, skip a few desserts, tune the engine.  1-3 loss at the plug might not seem that much...  :-)

Hey Chris
How about an Exact Fit/Kelley adjustable ignition system?
I'd buy it.

Will have a few small updates soon regarding functionality between tcip4 and the ca cycle red coils. I got my damaged ign's repaired and they were returned today. So now having a spare, I will try and run the red coils. I'd have them swapped out by now, but I have too full of a gas tank to lift it up. Once i ride some of that gas away I'll out in the red coils and see if she holds together for a full day at the track....so I guess that will be sept 3rd.

I'm looking for a timing solution for my 900ss rebuild...

How is the ignitech holding up?

one of mine crapped out, got a replacement from ca-cycleworks, the new one still works but i've been off the bike mostly this year.   :-\   I'd like to try silent hektik or as uotani next time.

I would absolutely like to run a non resistor type plug for 1-3 hp gain, but won't due to being concerned that it may take out my Igniteck which is an awesome little unit for what it does for the price.

If someone can tell me how to run a plug that gives a genuine hp advantage without buggering up the ignition then I would be all over it! I am running the projected tip NGK Iridiums (costly) at present they deal well with the premium fuels here with good coils (Dyna or Kelley coils). Haven't smacked them with the JE pistons yet. The D8EAs are heaps cheaper!

If Chris was able to run the non resistor plug without issue and it became an issue later then maybe there was a component change in the Igniteck that made the unit vulnerable? I'm no sparky, so anyone with knowledge on this is welcome to chime in. Is there a way to deal with the issue and keep the best spark plug for power? Is it ignition cables, plug caps, some added component? Tiz, you seem to know about this stuff.

I mean, ten bucks in plugs, that's cheap horsepower!

Before they made resistor plugs, you had to use resistor caps when the bike required it.  The issue is shielding and the wires on the bike act as a huge antenna for any radio noise generated by the plug.  It doesn't matter where on the circuit you put the resistor - i.e. inside the plug, in the cap, in the wires -- any resistor is going to cut some voltage. See Ohm's Law -- voltage is inversely proportional to the amount of resistance. 

Now this is based on the knowledge that the spark creates a noise burst when it fires, and so designers have tried to keep it simple and put the resistor nearest the plug (cap or wire) and now have figured out how to put it inside the plug. 

It might be possible to put a resistor inline for each wire going to an ecu or the ignitech.  it might only be necessary to put one on the power lead.  this might protect the circuits if that's the problem.  likewise, if the input voltage is nonvariable, you could put a voltage regulator inline which would prevent spikes (by dissipating them as heat)...  i used a VR for an LED tail light that I built for my Pantah -- to keep the charging system from burning out the LED arrays -- keep the input voltage at 12vdc and the resistors can be finely tailored to what voltage feeding them.

Anyhow, I don't think there is an easy solution.  But it might be as simple a using a ferrite core on the wires.  That would be easy enough to try.

Quote from: ducatiz on August 16, 2011, 07:09:22 PM
Before they made resistor plugs, you had to use resistor caps when the bike required it.  The issue is shielding and the wires on the bike act as a huge antenna for any radio noise generated by the plug.  It doesn't matter where on the circuit you put the resistor - i.e. inside the plug, in the cap, in the wires -- any resistor is going to cut some voltage. See Ohm's Law -- voltage is inversely proportional to the amount of resistance...

I don't completely understand the effect of resistance on spark voltage.  If you increase the plug gap, effectively increasing the resistance, the plug will not spark until the voltage builds up enough for the spark to jump the greater gap.  So, in this case, voltage is directly proportional to resistance, not inversely proportional.

If you add an inline resistance, the spark will still not jump the plug gap until the  voltage builds up to the same point that it took to jump the gap prior to adding the resistance.  It seems to me that the plug gap is what controls the spark voltage, not inline resistance.   So, what am I missing here?

DR8EA plugs with the Red coils and 0ohm wires seem to be a good match. Im still not running the projected tips, but I might switch next year (i have a case of the dr8ea.

Just got around to installing my ignitech from way back when Norm did the first group buy.   Working well so far (500 miles).  Hoping it continues to work well.

Quote from: turbodude on August 17, 2011, 11:21:44 AM
Just got around to installing my ignitech from way back when Norm did the first group buy.   Working well so far (500 miles).  Hoping it continues to work well.

what bike and what's your configuration?  did you tweak the programming any?

Quote from: ducatiz on August 17, 2011, 12:05:19 PM
what bike and what's your configuration?  did you tweak the programming any?

944 with split 41 fcr's and dynacoils.  Have the pick ups retarded as BCM used to do to deal with the compression.  I did mess with the preset map a little to compensate for the delay mentioned earliers as I have an old style ignitech. 

I plan on moving the pick ups at my next oil change so  I can get more timing.

Quote from: turbodude on August 19, 2011, 04:58:10 AM
944 with split 41 fcr's and dynacoils.  Have the pick ups retarded as BCM used to do to deal with the compression.  I did mess with the preset map a little to compensate for the delay mentioned earliers as I have an old style ignitech. 

I plan on moving the pick ups at my next oil change so  I can get more timing.

If you have the Ignitech, you don't need to move the pickups, you program it.

Quote from: ducatiz on August 19, 2011, 05:33:03 AM
If you have the Ignitech, you don't need to move the pickups, you program it.

Yes, but my pick ups are retarded 6 degrees so by 9,000 rpm I am believe I can't even get to 30 degrees with the delay.  (No I haven't had a chance to check it with a timing light.  Don't want to hold it at high rpm in the driveway with a timing light and get the neighbors wound up).

Quote from: turbodude on August 19, 2011, 09:57:04 AM
Yes, but my pick ups are retarded 6 degrees so by 9,000 rpm I am believe I can't even get to 30 degrees with the delay.  (No I haven't had a chance to check it with a timing light.  Don't want to hold it at high rpm in the driveway with a timing light and get the neighbors wound up).

[evil]

I'd say that's a good Sunday morning activity, why not?

stop by on Sunday.  You can hold the throttle, I'll hold the timing light.   [bacon]

Quote from: turbodude on August 19, 2011, 10:31:28 AM
stop by on Sunday.  You can hold the throttle, I'll hold the timing light.   [bacon]

where are you?  I got no problem if we do it at your place.. LOL

Here's an explanation of ignition system resistance.   Don't know for sure if the guy knows what he's talking about but it made sense to me.

http://www.motorcycleproject.com/motorcycle/text/plugwiretech.html (http://www.motorcycleproject.com/motorcycle/text/plugwiretech.html)

I'm very happy to have found this thread.

I've been building my new track bike over the past six months.

It has TCIP4 with Ca-Cycleworks red coils, I'm running D8EA sparks.

Took it out for the first time last weekend, very exiting, it was running sweet, I was smiling.
10 laps later it started to cut out, running rough, and that was the end if the first test.

I couldn't figure out what was wrong, I connected the TCIP4 to the laptop, it was showing error codes.
Then I found this thread.

So it looks like I fried the Ignitech unit by using the OEM spark plugs?

cheers

Very much likely, my friend.  [thumbsdown] but at least you won't have to chase the problem too long. I've been running the red coils for quite some time now with R type plugs and no issues for the ignitech.

Oh to make sure it's the same failure mode, check and see that it's the ch1 cylinder that's not running.

I have a new unit coming in, so I'll get the right plugs and hopefully that will work better.
It's a sweet unit otherwise.

They need to put a red label on the unit saying 'use resistor plugs or else it will damage the unit', not a fine print online saying 'recommended sparks...'

Can I ask, what quickshifter are you using with the TCIP4?

cheers

Quote from: sevenfifty on November 30, 2011, 02:35:38 PM
I'm very happy to have found this thread.

I've been building my new track bike over the past six months.

It has TCIP4 with Ca-Cycleworks red coils, I'm running D8EA sparks.

Took it out for the first time last weekend, very exiting, it was running sweet, I was smiling.
10 laps later it started to cut out, running rough, and that was the end if the first test.

I couldn't figure out what was wrong, I connected the TCIP4 to the laptop, it was showing error codes.
Then I found this thread.

So it looks like I fried the Ignitech unit by using the OEM spark plugs?

cheers

resistor plugs have been std fitment for longer than i've been working on them.  they always had champion ra4hc or ra6hc.

Quote from: brad black on December 03, 2011, 05:05:31 AM

resistor plugs have been std fitment for longer than i've been working on them.  they always had champion ra4hc or ra6hc.

Except for those of us who got sold bikes with the NGK DPR8-EA9 plugs in them. And the stock toolkit plug spanner that doesn't fit them...

:P

big

Quote from: bigiain on December 15, 2011, 12:40:54 AM
Except for those of us who got sold bikes with the NGK DPR8-EA9 plugs in them. And the stock toolkit plug spanner that doesn't fit them...

:P

big

DPR8EA9s are resistor plugs

Quote from: ducatiz on December 15, 2011, 06:43:06 AM
DPR8EA9s are resistor plugs

I think his comment was more directed at Brad about brand and the wrench not fitting.

guilty.  and the cause of many low speed and cold running issues when not gapped back to 0.6mm.

now i've found you can get DCPR8E with screw on ends, and they fit the supplied socket.