Ducati Monster Forum

This post began as a threadjacking elsewhere and so I reconstitued the following to get the ball rolling in a proper place of its own (much of the discussion so far is M696/M1100 related, but the thread is of course open to all :)):


....If M696/M1100 had reflashed ECU to delete the stock 02 inputs, who thinks it could be an idea to fit the Autotune option for PC5??  The Bosch wideband sensors could presumably fit right where your stock O2s just left from.... and since you'd be running free of the stock open loop you'd be running dynamic mapping managed by Autotune/PC5 throughout the entire range.  Problem is, you'd need 2x Autotune boxes which is expensive and I have no idea if PC5 can accept more than one Autotune input.  Unless the Harley-specific Dual Autotune could be adapted.......

Thoughts?




Raux, Dynojet's Autotune option for PC5 listed for M696/M1100 is their universal SINGLE unit designed to sit in the exhaust at a point of mutual gas collection - in a stock system the obvious location would be in the "Y" midpipe.  Problem I see with this is that your gonna get some kinda average reading of the fueling results from both cylinders combined.  So theoretically, if one cylinder is horribly lean and the other is horribly rich..... the Autotune is gonna come to the "average" conclusion that the bike is running perfectly.   Me no like.

But.....  I did ask Dynojet about the possibility of fitting their Harley-specific Dual module Autotune to our Ducatis.  Here's the response I received:

You can use the Harley Auto-tune kit on any 2 cylinder bike with 2 fuel injectors. You would need to chop off the Harley style connector for power/ground and splice power and ground from somewhere on your bike. You might want to get the AT-100B Harley auto-tune kit if you want the kit to come with weld in 18mm bungs for the auto-tune o2 sensors.
 
Let me know if you have any further questions.

Regards,
 
Chris Kelly
Dynojet Research
2191 Mendenhall Dr. Suite 105
North Las Vegas, NV 89081

Encouraging indeed  [evil]  Needless to say.... I do have further questions....  

I'll keep y'all posted  ;D

Looks like its gonna be me.....

.... I ordered an AT-100 Autotune kit yesterday.

This should be good...  ;D

Keep us posted.

I'm personally bummed you can't get this set-up for the older PCs

Like to see how this works out.  [drink]

Steep learning curve ahead, I know.

Somebody's got to get thrown under the bus.  [cheeky]

 [popcorn]

Looks like it will end up being a winter project for me. Eager to hear how it works out for you!

hey ungeheuer

once you get the map with autotune you can save it... send the autotune to me  ;D

Once I get it sorted I think Povidius is gonna shout everybody a PCV+Autotune.  Maybe scoot him a PM  ;) [laugh]

OK so I realise that (one of) my first problem(s) is going to be coming up with target AFRs for the Autotune to aim for.  Especially since I have NFI.  There are very few PCV maps available for M1100 and none with any Autotune target AFR maps.  So I'm gonna have to input the AFRs manually (or find Autotune AFR target for something else - similar - and adapt those). 

My PCV is currently running mapping created by WASP for M1100 (with WASPkit and slipon cans) on their Dyno - it runs pretty well, so that will be my base map. WASP's mapping of course has no values for the closed loop area coz - they're allowing the stock Lambdas + PCV's o2 Optimizers to take care of that section, which according to the PCV documentation is aiming at a 13.6:1 AFR.  So in the "cruise" zone (under 20% throttle and 4500rpm) I'm guessing I can use that 13.6:1 as my starting point.  But beyond there......  I'm unsure. 

So..... does anybody have any idea what I should be aiming for with AFRs?? 

Saw this quote from Dynojet Research on another forum after a quick search...
Ususally around 13.1-13.3 will deliver best peak performance. Sometimes going as rich as 12.8 can deliver better throttle response thru the midrange

and I'm seeing 13.2 as a good starting point as well on other searches

so 13.2 across the board and maybe slowing towards 12.8 on higher throttle and rpm

Thanks Raux - yup my homework seems to throw up 13.2:1 as the most popular number too..........

here's a real good read

http://www.fi2000r.com/page.php?page=41 (http://www.fi2000r.com/page.php?page=41)

Does the autotune feature look for a set of user defined parameters?

yes, it has a chart just like the PC V.
but instead of fuel percentages. it is looking for AFR. it then sends a signal to the PC V to adjust the map fuel percentages to match that target AFR.
It will continue to adjust until it has reached all throttle position/rpm combinations from what I understand. After that it stops adjusting.
What I would like to know is... does that now mean you can grab that new map. save it. pull the Autotune and o2 sensors it has. and use the new map it created.
or does it erase the map when you remove it?

Yes.  Its just as Raux said.

Once Autotune has reached the point where its on-the-fly adjustments are so small as to be of no further great relevance, then yes you can save that map (in reality, you'd be saving each of its trim mappings to your base PCV map to create a new - more accurate base map - until such time as the trim variations are so small as to be of no further use).  Once you have accepted all the Autotune trimming to your base map to create that final map which will no longer benefit from any more adjustment then sure, you save it and could at that point pull the Autotune+wideband sensors and run from that point on with that as a static PCV map.

Thanks for that link - good reading indeed  [thumbsup]

This from Dynojet is quite useful too >>  http://www.powercommander.com/downloads/Support-Released/PCV/Tutorials/pcv_how_to_adjust_target_AFR_table.swf (http://www.powercommander.com/downloads/Support-Released/PCV/Tutorials/pcv_how_to_adjust_target_AFR_table.swf)

Cycleword review here >> http://www.cycleworld.com/motorcycle_news/product_reviews_articles/archive/product_evaluation_dynojet_auto_tune_wideband_o2_controller (http://www.cycleworld.com/motorcycle_news/product_reviews_articles/archive/product_evaluation_dynojet_auto_tune_wideband_o2_controller)

why not just work something like this. and then adjust according to experience
check the plugs for fouling, etc.
this breaks it down into from full throttle wanting best power to lighter throttle wanting less in cruising but more at high rpms
disclaimer. this is just me using excel. this is not a tested or actual autotune table.

   0   2   5   10   15   20   40   60   80   100
500   14.7   14.7   14.7   14.4   14   14   13.6   12.8   12.8   12.4
750   14.7   14.7   14.7   14.4   14   14   13.6   12.8   12.8   12.4
1000   14.7   14.7   14.4   14.4   14   14   13.6   13.2   12.8   12.4
1250   14.7   14.4   14.4   14.4   14   13.6   13.6   13.2   12.8   12.4
1500   14.4   14.4   14.4   14   14   13.6   13.6   13.2   12.8   12.4
1750   14.4   14.4   14   14   14   13.6   13.2   12.8   12.4   12.4
2000   14   14   14   14   14   13.2   13.2   12.8   12.4   12
2250   14   14   14   14   13.6   13.2   12.8   12.8   12.4   12
2500   14   14   14   13.6   13.6   13.2   12.8   12.8   12.4   12
2750   14   14   13.6   13.6   13.6   13.2   12.8   12.8   12.4   12
3000   13.6   13.6   13.6   13.6   13.6   13.2   12.8   12.8   12.4   12
3250   13.6   13.6   13.6   13.6   13.6   13.2   12.8   12.8   12.4   12
3500   13.6   13.6   13.6   13.6   13.6   13.2   12.8   12.8   12.4   12
3750   13.6   13.6   13.6   13.6   13.2   13.2   12.8   12.8   12.4   12
4000   13.6   13.6   13.6   13.6   13.2   13.2   12.8   12.8   12.4   12
4250   13.6   13.6   13.6   13.2   13.2   12.8   12.8   12.4   12   12
4500   13.2   13.2   13.2   13.2   13.2   12.8   12.8   12.4   12   12
4750   13.2   13.2   13.2   13.2   13.2   12.8   12.8   12.4   12   12
5000   13.2   13.2   13.2   13.2   13.2   12.8   12.8   12.4   12   12
5250   13.2   13.2   13.2   13.2   13.2   12.8   12.8   12.4   12   12
5500   13.2   13.2   13.2   13.2   13.2   12.8   12.8   12.4   12   12
5750   12.8   12.8   12.8   12.8   12.8   12.8   12.8   12.4   12   12
6000   12.8   12.8   12.8   12.8   12.8   12.8   12.4   12.4   12   12
6250   12.8   12.8   12.8   12.8   12.8   12.8   12.4   12.4   12   12
6500   12.8   12.8   12.8   12.8   12.8   12.8   12.4   12.4   12   12
6750   12.8   12.8   12.8   12.8   12.8   12.4   12.4   12   12   12
7000   12.8   12.8   12.8   12.8   12.8   12.4   12.4   12   12   12
7250   12.4   12.4   12.4   12.4   12.4   12.4   12.4   12   12   12
7500   12.4   12.4   12.4   12.4   12.4   12.4   12.4   12   12   12
7750   12.4   12.4   12.4   12.4   12.4   12.4   12.4   12   12   12
8000   12.4   12.4   12.4   12.4   12.4   12.4   12   12   12   12
8250   12.4   12.4   12.4   12.4   12.4   12.4   12   12   12   12
8500   12.4   12.4   12.4   12.4   12.4   12.4   12   12   12   12
8750   12.4   12.4   12.4   12   12   12   12   12   12   12
9000   12   12   12   12   12   12   12   12   12   12
9250   12   12   12   12   12   12   12   12   12   12
9500   12   12   12   12   12   12   12   12   12   12
9750   12   12   12   12   12   12   12   12   12   12
10000   12   12   12   12   12   12   12   12   12   12
10250   12   12   12   12   12   12   12   12   12   12
10500   12   12   12   12   12   12   12   12   12   12

WOW Raux - you been busy  [thumbsup]

Indeed I will work with something like that..... 

Point I'm wondering is this:  If I'm doing not much more than guessing what AFRs to set at what throttle %/rpms.... for Autotune to adjust and "tune" the PCV mapping.....  then whats the point of this Autotune thing?  I may as well just instead guess what values to enter into the PCV's mapping directly.....??  :-\

not really

at least with the autotune you can get predictable power/fuel efficiency

with the pc v only. you are only guessing that you are hitting the power afr or FE afr

or think about it this way.
let's say you are making a commuter bike
hit 14.7 afr across the board.
or a race bike.
12.8 across the board.
what we are trying to do is creat a map that is a generic 'road' map.
as you get into setting up your gears you'll be able to further tweak it.
it think about city traffic. you're typically in 2nd gear. no shifting so you will want useable power with good fuel economy say 13.6

but your fav road you find yourself shifting through the 4-5-6 gears on the high revs... so you want the lower 12 range. fuel economy be damned

as you ride more with the newer map. your butt dyno will tell you.. well i'm not getting enough power on the highway for passing.
so take note of the rpm/gear/throttle combo you are using and adjust yoru AFR down in those regions. basically shifting your chart around.
the unit corrects for the new feel you want.

if you had a dyno. you would do the same thing. The dyno would kick out your afr map and the idea would be to smooth it out, giving you a smoother tq curve and more useable power.
the autotune skips that. YOU create the smooth AFR curve. the pc adjusts the fueling to match. so your smooth tq curve is easier to build.

Yeah - just going thru the doubting phase right now  [laugh]

Since I dont yet have the thing to actually play with .... there can be no lightbulb moments.... So instead I think myself around in circles.... 

So anyway......  your interest and input is encouraging, thanks  [thumbsup].

I see you guys are discussing the possibility of creating a MAP and then ditching the Autotune and running just the PC V with the MAP created...



One mportant point in keeping the Autotune installed is that with future engine mods the Autotune will adjust fuel trim accordingly. For me that's a bonus as I'm running cored cans but will be putting on a set of SC project GP-EVO silencers over the winter... maybe even cams after I do some research....and then...and then..... [roll]

I have to question this part of the conversation. The Autotune should work with the PC V and keep adjusting for different riding characteristics, temps, etc...etc.....even right down to a dirty air filter...no??

You're right.  But we're just discussing that it is possible - which it is.  Is it desirable?  Well, I intend to leave mine in place to continue its monitoring even though its adjustments once the "final trim" is accepted will be minimal.

You're right again.  To be precise "After that it stops adjusting" should really read: "Unless there are further changes to the engine's fuelling hardware..... then... after that it stops adjusting significantly"

yeah i can see if things significantly change there would be a need for the Autotune to be a part of the system.

for example, changing exhausts, changing to a freeflow airfilter or changing gearing

but i doubt a dirty filter would affect that much.

and slight temp changes would mean that the bike is constantly searching for the best map from morning to night. but apparently you can install a switch to avoid this type of behavior.

i suppose it wouldn't hurt to keep it on, but i  doubt it would constantly make a difference unless you did major changes

also, just read that the maps from Dynojet include an Autotune map. so, Ungeheuer, if you grab one of the DP Euro maps, it might be a good place to start.

Many maps from Dynojet do include Autotune tables, you're right.   But the only map they have for M1100 doesn't.  

For interest I downloaded one of the 696 maps which does come with an Autotune table.... but...  all the entered values are "13" and there are no values at all in the stock closed loop area (not surprisingly), so not so enlightening.  Harley maps all seem to have detailed Autotune tables included though.... Grrrr...  

So.... after a little homework... & working with the knowledge that the stock closed loop o2 sensors running the PCV "optimizers" aim for 13.6 in the stock closed loop area, combined with Dynojet's documentation which clearly defines the stock closed loop area within their overall AFR table.... I came up with this as my draft AFR table >>

https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0B8GYk44zAjpmMTdjYzAyZWItZjZkNy00ZGJhLWIzYTEtZTMwM2I1MmY4MDRl&sort=name&layout=list&num=50 (https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0B8GYk44zAjpmMTdjYzAyZWItZjZkNy00ZGJhLWIzYTEtZTMwM2I1MmY4MDRl&sort=name&layout=list&num=50)

<< Comments welcome  :)

I'm thinking that closer to a smooth AFR curve then the stuff I saw from them on the 2 maps you can download.
WHICH neither is the DP ECU euro maps  [bang] I emailed them to get those.

I can't wait to see that that is like on the Dyno, Ungeheuer

Who knows?  Clearly there are values there which are almost totally meaningless.....  

eg: 13.0:1 AFR @ 2% throttle/9500RPM.

But really, when is it ever gonna be spinning 9500RPM with only 2% throttle rolled on?  So at the "extremes" it seems to me that predefining AFR %s is somewhat pointless.....

Trouble with jumping in the Deep End is that you gotta quickly learn to swim... lol...

Way Cool... Subscribing...

V/R,
Nick

You edited out your dyno theory ya bugger! I was going to say that it would require a heck of a long time on a dyno to target your A/F ratios using the Autotune...especially since it can allow for different A/F ratios for each gear.  I'm not even sure if that would be possible even with a somewhat close dyno generated fuel map. From what I understand it takes a bit of riding to get the Autotune working closely with the PC V.

An interesting discussion on the Autotune that I came across....

http://www.vfrdiscussion.com/forum/index.php/topic/52266-just-installed-power-commander-5-on-my-06/ (http://www.vfrdiscussion.com/forum/index.php/topic/52266-just-installed-power-commander-5-on-my-06/)




 

^^ Thanks for that link loopsrider.  A very good read that  [thumbsup]

I edited out my... um... so-called Dyno theory because I didnt think I'd made myself clear.....  :-\

... and your response confirms that I only clouded the issue further....lol   :-\.  There are those who think that Autotune would get there pretty fast, have a read of this >>  http://www.ducatisti.co.uk/forum/technical-help/50576-pcv-autotune-3.html#post528588 (http://www.ducatisti.co.uk/forum/technical-help/50576-pcv-autotune-3.html#post528588)  << .  But anyway, thats not what I meant.   I'm thinking you'd do a Dyno run, just like any other (so with Autotune turned off) to create your "perfect" regular PCV fuelling tables (not to be confused with the AFR % target tables).  And then enable Autotune and have the AFR % values which reference these Dyno numbers populate your Autotune AFR tables, thus generating the certainty that you began with the best possible base-mapping and using your Autotune to always "correct" back to that mapping.  So... in theory if there were no environmental or hardware changes your Autotune would need to do very little trimming.  But again, as you can see from that English thread, opinions are divided....

Depends how "close" your base PCV mapping is to begin with.  If you did as I've attempted to describe above, then Autotune would keep you on song very quickly.  If at the other extreme you began with  "zero value" PCV mapping, then Autotune would take quite some time to trim and re-trim on the way to building your maps.  

I'm still unsure how I'll approach it....

So my question is....

Is it better to buy the PC5 and have the bike dyno-tuned for $200+ or.... buy the autotune for $200+ and have the bike constantly adjusting?

Its a good question...

... as you see.... I'm heading down the Autotune path...  is that gonna be "better" in the end?  I have no idea yet.  But finding out is part of the ...um... fun  ;D

Plenty of people simply have PCV nicely set-up on a Dyno and run beautifully with that map from then on.  You change your exhaust?.... or intake?.... or?.... Then you return to the Dyno to do it over.   No unforeseen surprises in that option - its tried n tested  [thumbsup].

ok, confirmation from Dynojet, the AT-100 will work with anybike with two O2 sensors. so you're good to go Ungeheuer.

I have the other two maps if you need them. PM me.

um... wake up Raux will ya...  ;)  [laugh]

Maybe you should take a read of this thread's very 1st post >> http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=42213.msg754968#msg754968 (http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=42213.msg754968#msg754968)  ;D  

But thanks for the confirmation  [thumbsup]

PM sent.

After more homework and advice I went back to the drawing board on my AFR tables.  New, simpler draft here for anyone interested >>  https://docs.google.com/fileview?id=0B8GYk44zAjpmZGRiZjJkZmItZTIyZC00MTkzLTlkZjAtNjRhYTliOTA0ZTYy&hl=en_GB (https://docs.google.com/fileview?id=0B8GYk44zAjpmZGRiZjJkZmItZTIyZC00MTkzLTlkZjAtNjRhYTliOTA0ZTYy&hl=en_GB)

One other cost factor that i wouldnt beleive unless i saw the result with my own eyes, is a rear tire. buddy got his 848 dyno tuned and the rear tire was toast. More than 3/4 life left on the tire i saw before and after of the tire and the tire was done.
Everyones result will be different might have been the guy tune-ing, having fun with the 848 but a rear tire should be factored into the equation of dyno tuning.
That and the tune without a dyno (on the fly) is what has me excited about the auto tune. Cant wait for some results from you guys whos pockets are a little deaper than mine. [thumbsup]
Thanks for experimenting and posting results.

you have no clue

:o Bloody Hell  :o

Deeper pockets? My pockets are a LOT less deep - either that or my arms got longer - than before I contracted this Ducati Mod Virus.  Only way to inoculate yourself is by staying away from evil places like this [evil] [bang].  Sooooo... if you're still here..... I too was attracted to Autotune by the prospect of setting up PCV without Dynotime.  But the thing about Autotuning without pre-defining base mapping on a Dyno is this: You have to get your Autotune AFR% table(s) from which Autotune will build your PCV fuelling map(s) from somewhere.  Dynojet has few PCV maps available for M1100 and none with AFR tables.  So, where are these meaningful AFR% tables coming from?  I've thought up a couple which might work, but so far its nothing more than guess work on my part.  

Consequently I have a Dyno visit booked for the 18th.  [bang]

Thanks.  Was there ever any doubt? [laugh]  

I got my S4 dyno-tuned in '03 after putting a PCIII on it.
It took some life off of the tire, but nowhere near that severe.
It was a Pirelli Dragon Evo, probably a good bit harder than the gumballs on 848's.

Raux,  thanks for mailing me those 696 Euro dynojet maps.  Checking the AFR tables shows that they're using 13.0 everywhere....  cant see that being ideal.

Anyway to cut to the chase.  Its real.  

Having first Rexxer'd away my stock o2s and rid myself of the original closed loop, for a moment I had me that desirable open loop system we all love to love.  But not for long.  I now have me a NEW fully closed loop Autotune system  ;D.

Its too easy really.  Order the AT-100, pull the stock Lambda probes and fit Dynojet's Bosch Wideband o2 sensors in the vacated holes.  Snip off the Harley-specific connector for 12v/Ground and go find these things some place on your bike - I tapped into the tail light loom with a snazzy surplus Ducati connector/plug/socket I had lying around.  No Harley parts on my bike thank you  ;).  Wire up the new o2s to your the Autotune module (a fiddly task - surely Dynojet could've come up with a better design - you'll know what I mean when you encounter it), connect your autotune to the PCV with the supplied loom (thats more like it), enable "autotune" within the PCV's config tools, feed it AFR tables and voila!!  

I'm currently running with this as my AFR table(s) >>  https://docs.google.com/fileview?id=0B8GYk44zAjpmZGRiZjJkZmItZTIyZC00MTkzLTlkZjAtNjRhYTliOTA0ZTYy&hl=en_GB (https://docs.google.com/fileview?id=0B8GYk44zAjpmZGRiZjJkZmItZTIyZC00MTkzLTlkZjAtNjRhYTliOTA0ZTYy&hl=en_GB)

Autotune is trimming the fuel mapping as expected.... actually better than I expected or dared to hope.....  took the bike for a test ride and it ran even better than before, absolutely zero hesitation anywhere in the range... part throttle... full throttle... any where in between... just runs damn well indeed.   Returned from test ride #1 to accept the Autotune "trims" - some large variations applied, many up to the 20% default limit - and set out for test ride #2.  Returning from that ride revealed Autotune trims of much more modest values, indicating that its already getting closer to its "ideal".

Its difficult to see how starting from a properly set up Dynotuned map could possibly run any better than this.  But nevertheless on Saturday I'm booked in for a dyno session to see what else I can learn.

Short story:  If you want to run Autotune with your PCV - with or without any prior dyno setting-up - go for it*.  At this early stage I'm delighted with the results  8) [thumbsup]


*Disclaimer: If you do fit Autotune with or without prior Dyno mapping.... and especially if you use my AFR table to set yours up... you do so entirely at your own risk.  Happy to help, but not financially !!  ;D.

That's great news to here the autotune is working well. I've been waiting to comment about the autotune untill you were done or almost done ! Anyway thers's some autotune haters out there and since I've never used one I decided to wait for your results. So now I know it's working well I have a question, I have bought the Rexxer User and have 2 maps coming one with 02 sensors & one without 02 sensors, did you start out with the Rex open loop (no sensors) map & PCV ? Or did you try Rex map open loop with no PCV ? Or have you tried any Rex map with out the PCV. I'm curious as I have not bought a PCV and am hoping that with the Rex mapping I will not need the PCV. And from what it sounds like to get optimum you need Rex map, PCV & autotune or a good dyno tune in lieu of the autotune.
 Thanks

Yes, there are some Autotune haters out there.  I have no axe to grind either way,  the idea interested me so I set out to find out for myself.  Its early days yet, but so far I have only good to report.  Many of the haters have a vested interest in doing so however,  I spoke to 2 Dynotune operators who both suggested that Autotune is a waste of time, that they get better results without it....   Maybe.   But.... then they would say that wouldnt they.  

I was hoping to keep this discussion specifcally about PCV/Autotune.... :P ;) .... but since you asked....

I've been running PCV since my WASP kit (its part of the WASP kit in fact).  PCV was Dyno mapped by WASP for use with their kit on M1100 with Termi slipon cans.  But ofcourse it only functioned in the open loop, the supplied o2 optimizers (similar to the Fat Duc ones) helped smooth things out in the stock closed loop.

And then I Rexxered my stock o2s away and ran the bike open loop.....(still running PCV with WASPs mapping) for a quick test only.  Just to ensure there were no nasty surprises with the reflash.  All good so moved on to where I am right now....

Which is my Rexxered ECU with PCV running WASP's mapping as a base for Autotune to adapt.  Rexxer can create ECU mapping for whatever you want, so yes the beauty of what they do is that you could have your ECU perfectly mapped to match your system.  No piggy back PCV required.  In theory.  In practice unless you have a common setup (which my WASP system is not - yet) how you gonna know if your Rexxered ECU is ideal?  You could put it on a Dyno and find out, sure.  And if its perfect than thats great.  But if its not.... what then?  So thats why I chose to continue with PCV piggy backed to the ECU, so that I can tune it as precisely as possible.  The only reason I Rexxered my o2 sensors away was so that I could continue that precise mapping over the entire range, rather than merely in the stock open loop.  I chose to try the Autotune option, just to find out if I could get it to do that precision work for me.  So far so good.  But confirmation will come when if I cross check the Autotune's work on a Dyno.

I'm sure theres no One Way to get to your "optimum result".... I've decided to try see if I can get (near) there using Autotune but I'm sure a perfectly mapped ECU is probably the neatest way to get to a good - if fixed - end point.

DucNaked is running his M1100 - Termi cans (I think) Cored stock cans, DP hi-flo air filter + DP air box cover - with Rexxered ECU open loop no PCV.  Maybe give him a yell  [thumbsup].

"END POINT"
I cant beleive those words came out of your head?  [laugh] ;D

^^  [laugh] [laugh]

Nauturally... I wasnt referring to myself  8).   My "tuning solution" if it all continues to go well will be constantly variable - no end point for me  ;D.

Thanks for the info. I understand now that the Rexxer mapping for no 02 sensors will run the bike without a PCV maybe perfect maybe not but a bunch better then stock I'm sure. Weather or not I go for a PCV will depend on how the bike runs with just the Rexxer maps. I'm really not searching for optimum on this bike I just want to make it run right & I like tinkering with these things, this isn't even my 696 it belongs to my GF. So now the dash will read Her name & she'll probably be more thrilled with that then how it's running ! Oh well I'll get to test drive it with the DB killers out and redline it to 10K that will at least put a smile on my face. I will update the 696 Rexxer results when done. It will be interesting to see your dyno results and compare it to stock run. All the dyno charts I've seen on the 696 whether it has a stock ecu, DP ECU or PCV with optimizers all still have a large dip in the curve around 4K to 6K I'm hoping the Rexxer map will take some of that out. I haven't paid any attention to 1100 dyno charts but I'm sure your looking for a nice smooth power curve and I'm guessing the stock bike was far from that.

Quick update:

Or a non-update really.  After 4 months of running the AT-100 Dual Autotune I have nothing much to report.  All working really well, I'm very pleased with the outcome  [moto].

Its been interesting figuring it all out - I especially stressed over my AFR tables, but needlessly so in the end  [bang].

PCV + Autotune has proved to be an entirely viable alternative to PCV + Dynotime in my experience  [thumbsup].

These are you A/F targets?
Your own or found or recommended values?

Absolutely.
I think Raux has tuned before!
It's tuning for the variables of the real world.
Love what you're doing Unge.
Autotune =  On board Real time dyno tune.

It's actually quite surprising how much fuel is required for those times when you really ask for alot of power under acceleration and how inappropriate that amount of fuel is for low load cruising. Sounds like Autotune lets you have it all under every condition. Does Autotune allow for injector style 'accelerator pump' mapping?

nope not yet. just theoretical stuff.

Autotune does what the A/F lookup table directs it to do.
You still have to choose the A/F targets yourself.

Does Autotune or PC V have any logging possibility?

the LCD-200 accessory can log what goes on in the PCV...

reading the manual for it...
It seems to log at least some of the important data for DIY, not sure about this though as the manual doesn't show every data point logged.

My own - with a little help from Raux and from much studying of AFR tables for other roadgoing bikes, since there was nothing out there specifically for M1100.  Although I think I've varied it slightly since then - a little less lean in the mid-range. 

Guess I should post up my final AFR table for anybody who is interested  [popcorn].

But not the Lambdas I presume?

I dont understand the question really.......  See if this is the answer:  When you cable up to a laptop to your PCV you can view the Autotune "trim" values and then choose whether to "accept" those trims so as to modify the base mapping accordingly. Or you can - as I now often do - simply view and do nothing.

If you can log the Lambda values?

To see what Injector durations actually give you in A/F numbers, regardless your A/F lookup table?

I think he was asking of the LCD unit would log the readings from the o2 sensors. And I don't have an answer for that.

Also by logging the data in a format that we can read in a spreadsheet (the lcd units logs can export to CSV that we can import into excel and do all kings of fun stuff with) and can subsequently graph we can get different information out of the... information :p

If you want a long read on what data logging with an "auto tune" type application can lead to give this a read (http://xlforum.net/vbportal/forums/showthread.php?t=169489). It's about a different product on a different bike. But theory translates. :)

when you start talking about logging lambda sensors and the rest that's that a dyno does.
but the lambda log in theory with a bike with autotune will read exactly what you put on your autotune map.
that's if I understand the autotune correctly

Theres actually an aftermarket solution for tuning Harleys that logs everything directly off the ECU (including what the narrowband o2 sensors see) and then suggests changes to your map (via an application that analyzes the logs) and can then reflash the ECU with your changes. It's the most comprehensive DIY tuner I've ever seen for a vehicle, besides the obvious aftermarket ECU replacement options. It is actually a huge reason I haven't completely ruled out a Harley as my next bike. I like torque too :p

Spent the winter looking and finally scored a new Autotune AT-100 for $150 [thumbsup]

I may do a few dyno pulls just for shits and giggles. One OEM....one with just the PCV... One with PCV and AT-100.

 I'll be running the stock ECU with both 02 sensors operational (to begin with) so I guess I'll be welding two bungs into the exhaust.


I'll post up the results when I get things done....

Hopefully I will have my bike professionally dyno tuned sometime this spring, I luckily have a "certified" power commander shop near my house.... So, I will be able to provide maps for everyone that has beyond the standard slip-ons....

Certified? I know a ton of people that are Microsoft certified that can barely check their email. For your sanity I hope Dynojet certifications are a better indication of ones qualifications for a task than Microsoft's...

Lol, well, it's a reputable full on tune shop that can tune the power commander. So, maybe they are a little more certified

So you're gonna be running with 4 lambdas?  And so only have your PCV+Autotune manage fuelling outside the stock closed loop?

Yes, to begin with..

what's the point?
the PCV comes with the parts to overide the original O2 to avoid the issue you're trying to put back in.
it would be easier just to adjust that part during several sessions. there are dip switches to adjust the AFR it's sending back to the close loop. WHen I emailed them they said they've done a lot of work on getting that part correct before they ever sent out the kits. That was most likely the biggest delay in the launch for the 696 PC V

What "part" are you referring to? What "issue" am I trying to put back in??

My point is what I intend to do is have the stock O2 sensors and ECU working in closed loop parameters to maintain fuel economy, and have the Autotune correcting the PCV in all open loop parameters.

guess what I'm saying is that Dynojet has done the work in the closed loop and found the best perfomance AFR to be X. they set their bypass mechanism up to full the ECU that it is the correct AFR.
it fixes the low end issues of the stock maps in that closed loop area.

Now are you referring to the PCV manipulating closed loop areas, or the Autotune manipulating it?

Last I heard the closed loop area was untouched by the PCV?? ???

I believe that the "o2 optimizers" that come with the pcv trick the ecu into producing the most efficient afr in closed loop.

If you havnt seen the new pcv it's essentially two parts, the power commander, and the optimizers which plug into the o2 sensors. I dont believe you can adjust the mapping in closed loop but it is adjusted somewhat by the optimizers. How much and to what extent is beyond me however

I have the PCV installed currently. The O2 optimizers are non-adjustable and manipulate the OEM O2 sensor readings.

From what Raux seems to be saying is that the PCV itself further manipulates the closed loop parameters?? That would be total news to me. Perhaps the "bypass function" he is referring to is the O2 optimizers?

you can change the settings on the optimizers. there are dip switches inside. just ask dynojet for the settings.

  :o

That's news to me....Perhaps I have missed it in previous posts.

That tidbit is definitely not in the manual. Thanks for that info [thumbsup]

not widely known til now, because no one had been messing with it.
I had asked originally when I was more involved in changing the airbox (on hold due to funds) and knew that my air/fuel ratios were going to change drastically.

those with pods may want to work with it though.

Contact Chris Kelly at Dynojet for details on the dip switches.

Got my AT-100 Autotune today.... smokin' deal at $150 delivered to my door (still happy about that) [thumbsup]

As I mentioned, I'm wanting to run the OEM O2 sensors and also mount up the AT-100. I now have a dilemma as to where to weld in the bungs.

What do you think? I'm thinking behind the OEM sensors would probably be best. That's no problem on the rear cylinder header....however the front cylinder header only has a very small section before the Y-pipe and I'm thinking a person could risk erronious readings.

Thoughts?

Lets be clear about this:  Without having had your ECU flashed to delete the stock closed loop, your PCV can only control fuelling outside that part of the mapping, i.e. in the open loop.  If you go take a look at the mapping downloads on Dynojet's website you'll see that in the stock closed loop area no values are input, which when running stock closed loop is the correct format.  So, any values you entered in the closed loop section, lets say to add additional fuel, would simply be over-ridden by the ECU as the stock 02 sensors reported back that things were too rich.  PCV says add fuel, ECU says take it away again.  We're just talking in the closed loop here.  

To get around this inability to control fuelling in the closed loop, the optimisers which Dynojet supplies with PCV plug inline between the stock O2 sensors and the ECU, to modify the value of the data reported back to the ECU by the O2 sensors.  Stock O2s are like on/off switches, reporting back to the ECU either "lean" or "rich" around an AFR of 14.7:1.  The optimisers adjust this threshold (from memory to something like 13.6:1) causing the ECU to fuel a little more in the closed loop.  But this is not "tuning" IMO, its just shifting the cut off point by a fixed amount.  Raux is telling us that its possible to select a different fixed +/- value by adjusting the VRs on the optimisers - but you'd need to find out from Dynojet the effects of changing the VRs.

If you really want to know.....  I think running 4x o2 sensors is a pointless exercise.

if you don't have an ecu with the o2 sensors turned off, you need to run 4 o2 to run the autotune. if you are using the autotune with one sensor i would put it on the single midpipe area. the double i would put them also on the midpipe right before the joining point.

as for the fuel mixture, they chose that mixture as a good optimization of fuel economy and power. so going a bit richer might give you a bit more ooomph but poor fuel economy.

Yes, I'm aware that the PCV system will be basically inoperative during closed loop other than the enrichment circuit of the optimizers (which I now know can be fine tuned). To you guys it probably seems like I'm pissing in the wind since a major percentage of actual run time is closed loop. Let me explain...

 You need to remember the entire PCV/Autotune susyem is originally designed to operate with a fully OEM ECU. That is how I prefer to install it to begin with to see the gains.... future plans will include a reflash. Pretty easy to throw a couple plugs in the aftermarket bungs, pull the OEM sensors, and slip the Autotune ones in...

It drives me absolutely nuts when I see people completely modify a system without doing it in stages (when possible) to see where the gains are.... [bang]. I don't mean to be a dick but I spend half my day at work with an automotive scan tool in my hand on way more complicated systems. This is pretty basic stuff similar to pre-1995 OBDI automotive systems... my confusion was when someone on here was telling me the closed loop could in fact be manipulated. I now know they were referring to manipulating the optimizers via internal dip switches... that is not public information.


My only concern now is sensor placement... I'm thinking mounting the sensors too close to the Y-pipe may negate the fact I'm using the AT-100 dual sensor system by causing the sensors to sample exhaust from both cylinders. The only other option on the front cylinder header is to mount it ahead of the OEM sensor... I'm not sure I like that idea as I'm wondering if it will cause erratic readings at the OEM sensor during closed loop due to exhaust flow around the Autotune sensor. In reality it probably wouldn't... just was wondering opinions before I cut into my system...

Yes, I understand that if the stock closed loop is retained and you also want to run autotune... then the result is 4 lambda probes. 

I completely agree with your logic (although I dont worry about going nuts about what other people do  ;)).  I started with an exhaust system, then modified intake with mapped PCV, stock closed loop + optimisers, then ECU reflash and only then Autotune.  So I do understand your reasoning.

Why not mount your front autotune sensor much closer to the exhaust port than the stock o2?  I just checked and my M1100 full system stock mounting point for the front o2 (into which I have now have my autotune sensor) is just 350mm from the head, which on 696 (we are talking 696 aren't we?) would put it just ahead of the front header heat shield.

Oy,  just got this email from Power Commander:


What's the word guys?  A) Does the DP ECU (one with Termis) void the O2 sensors by default?  B) Do we have to weld in new bungs?   I want to get this stuff but I don't know that I can deal with the welding side... and having to buy the Rexxer to program out the O2 sensors might possibly put the whole project out of my price range.  Thoughts?

I've got 1100S if that matters.

Dp ecu still uses the O2 sensors. The O2 bungs are 18mm. So power commander is wrong on both.

Really this came direct from Dynojet?  I'm surprised, coz Chris Kelly is pretty switched on and in relation to M696/M796/M1100 (Siemens ECUs) this advice TOTALLY 100% WRONG.
 
Also completely incorrect.  If you plan to use Autotune (once you've had your ECU reflashed - DP ECU or not - to delete the stock o2 inputs) you do NOT need to weld in new bungs coz the stock bungs ARE 18mm, exactly the correct size to accept the Autotune sensors.

A) = No it does not.  
B) = No (if you already had the stock O2s flashed away)
or
B) = Yes if you want to run Autotune + keep your stock O2s (resulting in 4x O2 senors in total, an option I fail to see the point of).

^^ What DN said  [thumbsup]

Tsk tsk... You post your dyno pull with your setup and I'll post mine... I'm betting they will be virtually identical anyway. ;D

Wasnt intended as a jibe in your direction mate. You have your reasons for your approach.... and I think differently about it. You say the end result will probably be more or less the same and I say "it aint what you do its the way that you do it". I'm not wrong and neither are you  [thumbsup].

That's the good thing about opinions  ;). 

Just messing with you... I've purposely mounted my Autotune sensors in inconspicuous spots to allow them to be capped when I get an ECU reflash and remove my stock sensors. The reflash will have to be next winter as I don't want any downtime this summer. Guess I could find an ECU on E-bay and send it off...

Thanks for the info guys!  Yeah Chris was the one that sent me that info... totally seemed contrary to what I had read on this thread so I needed to check.

So what do you guys recommend?  I'd hate to buy the Rexxer unit for so much money just to get a PCV + Autotune as well... I've got a DP ECU (and the stock ECU just chilling in a box) what do you guys recommend I do?

End goal: PCV with AutoTuning, deleted stock O2 sensors, Wasp PUK whenever that happens. 

Send the ecu to a rexxer place, get a DP ECU map with no o2 and a higher RPM limit
Buy the PC V with Autotune

Go with any intake/exhaust system after that

I also have an ECU just chillin in a box, if one were to have this "ECU reflashed" where would one send this to and what instructions should be sent along with it? Will they just know what to do with it and will they have DP maps ready to be installed?

 [beer]

<----- motowheels

Well if you dont want the expense of buying a Rexxer unit then your options are... >>
  << What Raux said.

or

Having finalised your choice of exhaust and intake mods, forget the PCV+ Autotune and get your bike over to here >>  http://www.redlinemotors.com/ (http://www.redlinemotors.com/)  <<  for a custom tailored ECU reflash.

Anthony from pro italia is reflashing my ecu with no o2 sensors, and custom maps for my filter and exhaust. I'd like to get auto tune eventually since a true ecu tune is hard to come by for now. I just left the stock rev limit.

I just ordered the Rexxer ECU map to remove my O2 sensors and was interested in going the Power Commander auto tune route.  I noticed that on their website, Power Commander now lists a dual channel auto tuner (AT-300) for the M1100.  In this thread people have been using the AT-100, meant for Harleys, and modifying it for the Ducati.  Does anyone have any experience with the AT-300?  Will it replace the stock O2 sensors like people have been doing with the modded AT-100?  Thanks for any feedback.   

The AT-100 was the "original" auto-tune that had two sensors(one sensor for each o2 sensor bung on exhaust) and was meant strictly for harleys. They power connector on the AT-100 had a universal harley plug. The AT-200 was released the same time for sport bikes but only had one sensor.

Later, power commander released the AT-300 which is basically the same thing as the AT-100 but it does not have the universal harley plug for power, just a bunch of loose wires to wire into whatever bike you want.

All you do if you get the AT-100 is cut off the plug, and wire into a power source.

The AT-300 is more expensive, and you can find the AT-100 cheaper. Just cut off the power connection, and wire up into a power source(I used the tail light) as well as a ground. And, if you can find one used from a harley guy, you can get them on the cheap. But in all my searching, the AT-100 was cheaper than the 300, and works exactly the same, just requires cutting the plug off.

^^ Yup, what DoWorkSon said [thumbsup].

Cut the Harley loom plug off your AT-100 and you now have an AT-300. 

And a usleless free plug. 

All for less $$ than the AT-300  ;D.

So I got my PCV and AT100 and I am trying to wire everything up.  It looks like the PCV does not need a connection to a power supply, just a ground connection, I am guessing that it gets power from one of the pass through connections.  The auto tuner on the other hand says to connect it to ground (suggests negative battery terminal) and switched power (suggests tail light).  It also says that it can draw up to 5A when warming up the sensors.  Given that others here have used to tail light, I am guessing it can handle the extra 5A draw.  Has anyone seen any issues with too much draw on the tail light circuit?

As for the actual connection, can you skip the negative terminal of the battery and just connect both the positive and negative for the auto tuner to the tail light circuit?  Where is the most convenient place/method to tap into the tail light circuit?  Thanks in advance for any help. 

My Autotune is plummed into the tail light loom on the rhs close to the end of the rear subframe where the loom divides out - no issues at all with load.  And its ground wire is located along with the PCV's frame ground.

UN, I remember you had an issue with the Recces and the lack of a service indicator reset function....
Not sure if it has been covered here recently, and short of time to go back and read this whole post...just serviced my bike for the first time since fitting the Recces , used the service reset function and it worked a treat....

Hoping yours is resolved.


Cheers

Wrong thread mate.  This is PCV/Autotune. 

But if you're talking about the Rexxer service reset function, then yup, it was all resolved in the the last firmware release and covered here >>  Rexxer Service Reset (http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=43335.msg913082#msg913082)

what A/F ratio were you using when you set the Autotune up?

Does it have a 'map' of throttle/rpm to set values in?

Lazy Speeddog didnt read the older posts, your answer is on page 3.   Twice   [cheeky] ;).   

But I'll save you the bother, here it is again  ;D   >>  Ungeheuer M1100s AFRs (https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=explorer&chrome=true&srcid=0B8GYk44zAjpmZGRiZjJkZmItZTIyZC00MTkzLTlkZjAtNjRhYTliOTA0ZTYy&hl=en_US)   <<   I've since slightly modified the AFR table... running a wee bit less lean in the 3Krpm > 4Krpm range.

Yes.

Man what is it with people amd their inability to search  [laugh]

Eh, 4 pages back.  [coffee]

How much less lean are you running in the 3k-4k rpm/5-20% zone?

I've been running a Daytona Sensors WEGO II wideband O2 for a while, and now have the ability to change maps in my  MicroTec ECU (replaced my dead FIM U59).

Ran fine with the supplied map, but fuel mileage less than I wanted.
I've been progressively leaning it out.
I've found the engine seems less happy with the F/A above 13.5.

Have you done any logging w it?

My mistake.  That AFR table is the one I've been using for a quite while now.  I did play around with the AFRs in that part-throttle lower-mid rpms "cruise" zone for a while.... but that is the AFR table I finally settled on.

Less happy if it's richer than 13.5, or less happy if its leaner than 13.5?  
I'm assuming leaner.....  

I did a bit of logging with it right after I bought it a couple years ago.
I had no way to adjust the FIM ECU I had then, so didn't do much more.
Now I've got to see if my serial-port laptop still works.


Yes, leaner than 13.5 the engine gets a bit 'surgy'.

Not sure how comparable out AFR numbers are, I've not been able to compare wideband O2 sensors on the same machine.

I'm about to cross check my autotuned AFRs by temporarily disabling Autotune, running with the latest autotuned (but temporarily static) fuel map and temporarily fitting this...

(http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6191/6135591934_6590981a0e_z.jpg)

... and its own wideband O2 just to see if what it detects is the same/similar to what autotune is supposed to have setup.  Kinda cross checking the input by measuring the output with a different device.  Just for fun. 

OK, that's good.

I'm very curious to see how it compares.

+1 on ungeheur, that's what I ment.
Getting a real world check to see where you're at

You sir have a problem.  [evil]

;D

I already had the AFR gauge to help me tune the TM40 pumper carb on my DR - I'm not very good at "seat-of-the-pants" tuning  ;) .

How's that AFR gauge comparing?

 [popcorn]

Guys can I ask a question?

I have the Rexxer unit and the disabled O2 sensors and have finally arrived at the obvious (TO EVERY ONE ELSE EXCEPT MYSELF) conclusion that you do still need the flexibility to perform the final tune on the bike itself... that said i will follow the lead of other pioneers in this thread and fit the PV5 and the Auto tune... my preferred option was to keep the bike as simple as possible and not have the piggy back arrangement.. but without easy access to a Rexxer dyno there seems little options.... sooo....my questions are...
 If I buy the AT 100 (are we still of the opinion it is the preferred unit?)... does it have to stay in the loop or can I just use it as a tuning aid and save the Auto tune corrected file and then remove the AT 100 from the bike? I assume the auto tune can correct the file in the PC5 and save the changes on the go? I have a friend here with 1098 and 1198 that wants to use the Power Commander also and I am wondering if we can share the tool and sensors....
As the O2 sensors are disabled in the Siemens ECU... do you have to buy the PC5 M1100 specific unit or will any PC5 suffice? seems a bit of a waste of time to pay for the optimisers if you aren't going to use them...

if this works out as hoped then perhaps I can send the PC map to Chris at Rexxer and they make the changes to the map they have already provided and I can remove again the PC5? As mentioned I am pretty big on keeping the machine as simple as possible...

Interested in your informed opinions.

many thanks


   

Its still in the box.  Soon(ish) - January is playtime  ;).

AT100 or AT300 - whichever you can get at the best price (they're the same, apart form the AT100 loom plug, which you'll cut off).  Advantage of Autotune is that it's constantly adjusting to your target tune on the fly, but sure, you could remove it after a while and run with fixed PCV mapping from there on.  But then why not skip the Autotune and just put the bike on a Dyno?

I cant help you with an answer on using a non-M1100 specific PCV.  But theres no reason why you couldn't share out the Autotune between different PCV equipped bikes....  if you could be bothered.  I personally couldn't be arsed.

When I last had that conversation with Chris he indicated that they are not able to use PCV mapping as a basis for ECU reflash.

many thanks for the guidance....

Merry Christmas to all.

What happens if you keep the DP ECU closed loop operation and install the O2 optimizers, with AutoTune?

Could you not still affect the AFR in closed loop? The fact that Dynojet wants you to input 6-10 in the closed loop cells seems interesting.

Also, how would I go about using AutoTune with the closed loop operation enabled? Disconnect the stock O2s and O2 optimizers and stick the widebands into the stock bungs, then just save the Autotune table for the open loop cells?

Autotune will effectively "tune" only in the open loop.  Actually it depends what AFR tables you feed to your Autotune....  In closed loop area, if you ask Autotune to fuel above the optimised target closed loop AFR (13.6:1 IIRC) then the ECU will work to cancel out that additional fuel to return fuelling to within its desired optimised parameters......  Autotune will try to add it back, ECU will cancel it out.... in a self defeating circular exercise. 

Effectively not. See above.

Um.....  With closed loop still in operation (as in not flashed away)... you'd need to leave your stock O2s in situ to do their thing for the ECU.  You'd then need to additionally install your Autotune's wideband O2 probe(s) to report their samples to Autotune to control fuelling according to the AFR values you've set for open loop.

I recommend you read this >>  http://www.bikeboy.org/open_closed_loop_efi.html (http://www.bikeboy.org/open_closed_loop_efi.html)

Has anyone ever tried adjusting the fuel map with the closed loop cells and the O2 optimizers? Dynojet says to add 6-10% fuel in those cells, if it didn't make a difference then it would just be kept 0. The Dynojet maps were set to 6, and Dynojet said it could be adjusted to about 10% and to use Autotune or a dynotune to confirm the AFR in those cells.

A few people on forums said to just disconnect the factory narrowbands, ignore the CEL, and just use Autotune for the open loop cells. I never planned to keep the Autotune permanently installed.


I understand the theory of closed loop vs open loop, I deal with it on cars all the time. The way it works on the Siemens ECU is pretty obtuse. It is much easier to adjust/tune on a Ford or Chevy.

The reason the optimisers exist is that you CANNOT adjust fuelling within closed loop - said it before, will say it again - the ECU will endevour to cancel out whatever you add.  If you could add fuel within the closed loop by entering +values in PCV within closed loop cells why would Dynojet bother supplying the optimisers??

Cool.  Do that then   [bang].

Dynojet is asking us to add +6%-+10% in the closed loop cells WITH the optimizers installed to obtain the 13.6:1 AFR. Why are we adding fuel in those cells with the optimizers installed, if the ECU is just going to override everything? Legitimate question. I haven't gotten a clear cut answer on this yet.

I can understand if the optimizers will try to obtain 13.6:1 by themselves, but why do we have to add +6% to +10% in the closed loop region in Power Commander?

Dynojet gave me some new information, which I also found here: http://www.ducati.ms/forums/216-2010-current-2nd-generation-watercooled/124904-mts-1200-o2-optimizers-installed-2.html#post1227252 (http://www.ducati.ms/forums/216-2010-current-2nd-generation-watercooled/124904-mts-1200-o2-optimizers-installed-2.html#post1227252)

So the O2 Optimizers can be adjusted via the PC5 software, which in effect allows tuning of the closed loop region. It's not as clear cut as the AutoTune with the Closed Loop/O2 sensors disabled, but I think a Wideband might work for a baseline and for measuring the adjustments.

So they're asking us to add 6%-10% in the closed loop cells to help with transition fueling, because the ECU w/ active closed loop would revert back to the fixed stoich AFR or in this case, the commanded default 13.6:1

If you read the above thread where the owner installed just the Optimizer, he experienced hesitation regardless of the AFR. My guess is because he didn't have the actual Power Commander to add fuel to the closed loop cells to help with transition fueling. I wonder if the Accel Pump feature could also perform a similar task.

Your bike runs a Siemens ECU, MTS1200 does not.  I have no FHE with anything other than PCV/Autotune/Siemens, so I have no comment on what was experienced above.  However, here's my interpretation of the comments posted there by "Dynojet Research":

"If you simply install the O2 Optimizer and do nothing else (NO PCV) it will allow you to adjust the AFR in the closed loop area. It is intended to shoot for 13.6:1 AFR out of the box. If you need to adjust this area you can use the PCV software and a USB cable and you will get 2 slider bars. These bars will let you make the AFR richer or leaner than 13.6:1 and will do this independently for each cylinder." So - as i have been attempting to explain all along - otimisers alone will cause target closed loop fuelling to aim for 13.6:1 (fattened up from stock 14.7:1).  Apparently with the PCV supplied for MTS1200 you can adjust the degree of the fat lies which the optimiser tell to the ECU in software.  You're adjusting the optimisers NOT adding fuel via PCV.  This too can be done with the optimisers supplied in PCV kit for Siemens ECU, although its done by manual adjustment  - I have not done this, but Raux already explained this to you in another thread.  So if you want fatter than 13.6:1 in closed loop yes it can be done, but not by adding fuel via PCV.

"When you add the PCV we do have some values in the closed loop area of the map. Changing this value will NOT affect the target AFR of the Optimizer but helps in throttle transition and reaction time of the stock sensor. Outside of the closed loop area you are able to adjust the AFR as normal." What they are saying here is NOT that entering values of +6% or +10% will increase closed loop fuelling, but that it will help with the "step" off the edge...  so that in the time it takes for the stock lambdas to tell the ECU fuelling is fatter than allowed... some additional fueling will sneak thru past the gate keeper....  I can see that this may give a smoother transition.  IMO this is ONLY useful if you are running far "fatter" fueling in open loop than the fiddled with optimisers are helping to deliver in closed loop.  Better to create a smooth transition within your PCV open loop cells - or your Autotune AFR target map to avoid this anyway.  

The ECU will override whatever you add.  See above.

See above.  In closed loop if you attempt to add +6%... +10% or +79.4% the ECU will hear about it from the stock lambdas and fight to return fuelling to the rich/lean on/off target.  

According to Dynojet, the O2 Optimizers for all Ducati has the USB port to allow adjusting for a leaner/richer AFR on the Optimizer itself.

Their explanation was that the Optimizer has a voltage offset for the factory O2 sensors, and this can be further tweaked via the menu.

The instructions for the Power Commander say to change all closed loop cells to +10%, but in the Dynojet supplied maps they add +6% in the closed loop cells that aren't at idle. In essence 0-1750 RPM are all 0, as well as at 0 TP.

uh no. the o2 optimizers I have don't have a usb port. but there are dip switches to adjust them

Dynojet is telling me the Ducati O2 optimizers have the USB port? Someone in that other thread was able to access the menu in the PC5 software, which meant their optimizer had the USB port.

I even specifically asked Dynojet if the 14-001 PC kit's O2 Optimizer had the USB port.

There's no way for me to check because I don't have the kit on hand.

maybe they updated them, but my kit does not have USB ports on the O2 optimizers. only on the PCV itself
I spoke to Dynojet specifically about the O2 optimizers and they said the only way to change them is to adjust the dip switches in the optimizers.

Did they explain how the DIP switches worked (which settings did what, etc...)?
When did you buy your PCV?

Are you able to see the 2 sliders for the O2 Optimizer in your PC5 software? I was told by Dynojet that the menu would show up when the O2 Optimizer is connected to the laptop via USB.

+1

+1

So... to get this thread "PCV with Autotune" back on track:  Autotune cannot control the fuelling within closed loop, no matter what you do.

one of the first to purchase it when it was available for the 696

Understood about AutoTune. However, the workaround according to Dynojet is to adjust the O2 Optimizer itself, but you guys with the PCV are telling me the Optimizer doesn't have a USB port. I'll just wait to see a newer kit in person.

The workaround for what?  The optimisers themselves are the workaround for being unable to tune within closed loop.  Raux has said that PCV's optimisers can be adjusted beyond the supplied 13.6:1 value (although I never felt the need).  Your information is that this is done via USB and Raux is reporting that on the versions we both have the adjustment is achieved via dip SW on the optimisers.  Either way, the optimisers can be adjusted - if the later versions achieve the adjustment via USB, then I can see how that would be a better approach.  But the possibility to adjust the target value for the optimisers exists either way, just seems that the newer version apparently go about it in a more user friendly way.

Fact remains:  You still running closed loop?  Then an Autotuned PCV will do nothing for you within closed loop regardless of what you do or don't do with the optimisers.

Just checked my 14-001 optimizers (which are sitting in the box because I had the ECU flashed), and there is no USB port. The only USB port on the entire PC-V / Autotune setup is on the PC-V itself.

When did you buy that kit? Where are the instructions for the dip switches?

There are no instructions for the dip switches. that was knowledge passed down from Dynojet about them being adjustable.

They've done the research and the dyno pulls, the 13.6 is the best setting for them according to their research.


What are you trying to accomplish?
Why not just get a reflash, drop the closed loop, and put a full map on the PCV.

Yeah this seems to be the best route.  Get a Rexxer re-flash the removes O2 sensors and flapper, with a generic upgraded fuel map.  Then add PCV and put it on a dyno to fine tune.  I think that may be the route I go.  Still considering Bazzazz as well though.

If you remove the O2 sensors and closed loop operation, and just get a clean fuel map, how are you controlling the AFR during cruise conditions (essentially the range of cells in the fuel map that was previously controlled in closed loop) without Autotune?

Yeah I'm thinking since I have a good dyno guy close by that is a PC guru I would leave the AT out of the equation, just have him custom tune it with the PC5 after removing the O2 sensors from the map.

The Rexxer builds a new map right onto the main ECU sans O2.

You can either have the tuner build the custom map on the rexxer if they have that capability, which few do, or you reflash with the standard Rexxer map and then customize the PCV for you bike.

it's not like the ecu is going to go haywire looking for the o2 to decide how much fuel. that's what the rexxer map fixes.

A good idea for metroplex too IMO (which I suggested to him days ago). 

And whilst this is true, its already addressed in other general ECU tuning threads. 

You have already posted in the thread which answers this question mate.  I suggest you read it.  All.

http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=41934.135 (http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=41934.135)

Hello everyone, I'm new to this so I'll introduce myself a little bit. I'm from England and I've got a 2009 Monster 1100s (I do get it out when it's dry only, which is often  [coffee]). I've done a fair bit of work to it most recently I've installed the Autonue kit with the PVC and had the stock ECU Rexxer flashed. I've also taken out the stock air intake box and replaced it with velocity stack pods (like the WASP PUK, it is infact the TPO Beast-R).

My question is, since the beginning of this thread does anyone have a suitably well configured AFR Table? Since this thread was started PowerCommander/Dynojet still haven't configured anything.

Any help would be great  [thumbsup]

I'll make it simple for you cuz I asked this same question 2 months ago.

Search for power commander autotune m1100 evo with me as the OP

Yup, your setup is near identical to mine (although you don't mention what exhaust you're running). 

Here again is the AFR table I arrived at (and have been happily running with for a couple of years (?) now:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8GYk44zAjpmZGRiZjJkZmItZTIyZC00MTkzLTlkZjAtNjRhYTliOTA0ZTYy/view?pli=1 (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8GYk44zAjpmZGRiZjJkZmItZTIyZC00MTkzLTlkZjAtNjRhYTliOTA0ZTYy/view?pli=1)

Really enjoyed re-reading this thread.
Good work fellas.

Same here! Just ordered the pcv and auto tuner.  Excited to try Ung's map!

Has anyone bothered with different maps for each gear?

thanks again!

i was planning that out this coming winter

Mapping by gear? It looks easy enough to set up...

Looking forward to hearing your results and impressions.

Anyone happen to know offhand which of the 3 wires on the speed sensor we tap to enable the gear mapping on a '09 m1100?

 On line fitting instructions on PC site should have it via the links for that product.

I'll look for them online. Thanks!

Remember, when your PCV is managed by the Autotune module......  Autotune creates the mapping dynamically. 

With Autotune, 'ungs map' (or any 'map')... isn't one.  It's merely the air/fuel lookup table from which Autotune constructs the best appropriate map for prevailing setup and conditions.

As far as I remember then..... 'mapping' per gear is gonna be neither possible nor necessary.  Set your AFR x RPM x throttle % (as per the table I use or your preferred variation)... and let Autotune do the rest.

Or forget Autotune, wire up for geared mapping and have your Dynotuner create a static map for each gear..... if that's your thing.

Hello Sir!

You make an interesting point. I agree with you that if you're running the same air targets in each gear, that's it's kind of redundant to map each gear. Maybe I'm overly complicating things by wanting to try mapping each gear, simply because the pcv has the ability to?  I may have to rethink the gear mapping and just keep it simple for the time being...

I know it's been a while since you installed and mapped your bike, but do you remember having troubles hitting all the different rpm/throttle position combos?  Posting your far target map was very helpful itself, and a big push to go this route.  Have any other tips to share, Teacher?

Happy Mother's Day all!

Is it Mother's day in the US too?

'Teacher'  [laugh] [laugh] [laugh]

Autotune is already more complex then a sensible human really requires, so forget about mapping for each make the beast with two backsing gear is my humble advice  [thumbsup]

And although the outcome I've arrived at is great.... if I was doing it again.....

I wouldn't bother  ;D 

Much effort and farting around for small percentage gains.  Sure, gains they indeed be.... but in retrospect... other than then academic glory of knowing that "I could and I did".....  it's the difference between Very Good and..... A Bit Better than Very Good  [laugh]

Fit your PCV, wire up your Autotune, feed it an AFR table you like (mine or some other)... and just ride  [Dolph] [thumbsup]

And 'Sir' I am not.  Ask anybody  [laugh]

I wholeheartedly endorse this statement!

I got both the pcv and at-300 installed last night.  Lots of wiring to hide!  No real surprises installing it or getting the software to work.  I just need it to stop raining so I can ride and let it tune!

Is anyone using the startup fuel enrichment setting or the accel pump feature?