Ducati Monster Forum

The interest to fine tune one's ECU (post-exhaust and/or airbox mod) is extremely high and there are numerous posts.

I'd like to use this post to pull together all the different options and current product developments and provide a unified thread of making closed looped ECU bikes run better. I will add likes to other threads as I have time. Please feel free to post links on this topic that I've missed. Also please post errors and such and I will append this post from time to time to keep it fresh.

Thanks!

Common perceptions (feel free to add or critique if you disagree):

• Ducati's come lean from the manufacturer to pass emissions.
• Upgrading to aftermarket Slip-on's do not require ECU mod.
• Upgrading to aftermarket full-exhausts might not require ECU mod depending on new exhaust flow rate. For example, Exbox doesn't require ECU mods, but others' may
• Upgrading to aftermarket full-exhausts and airbox mods require ECU mod to rich the AF mixture
• No idea if just modifying the airbox requires ECU mod

Current (and near-production) ECU mods

Ducati Performance ECU - Designed specifically for the Termi system, but works reasonable well for other systems. The part number is either "96517706B" or "96517906B". Some dealers will not sell only the chip (without the exhaust and airfilter). Price is in the $1000-$1300 range. Product is not 'tunable', other than the trim. Mechanics for this product widely available.
http://www.motospecialties.com/PartOrder.asp?Store=DucatiOmaha (http://www.motospecialties.com/PartOrder.asp?Store=DucatiOmaha)

PowerCommander III - There are several options people have taken.  If you want to run stock ECU, Dynojet now lists a PCIII for a 2008 S4R (which is odd...as there are no S4R in 2008) module which does not tune below 5250 RPM and below 19% throttle unless you also have the DP ECU.  If you have the DP ECU, you would load a different canned map.  A third option is to use the stock ECU, but disconnect the O2 sensor and use the PC III for designed for a 1000ie or a 06 S4R (part number 717-411)  which has full range of adjustments.  You wil need to pay for a custom map and the "check engine" light will stay on constantly. Dynotuners are widely available.
http://www.powercommander.com/powercommander_iii_usb/powercommander_all_downloads.aspx?mk=5&mdl=193&yr=2008 (http://www.powercommander.com/powercommander_iii_usb/powercommander_all_downloads.aspx?mk=5&mdl=193&yr=2008)

FatDuc O2 Manipulator - Aftermarket plug-n-play that sits between the O2 sensor and the ECU.  It has a dial that allows the user to modify the reading that the O2 sensor is sending back to the ECU.  This causes the ECU to think it is running lean thereby adding more fuel. The effect should only be felt during the closed loop part of the ECU map.  Most people seems to be happy with the results; haven't heard any negative stories yet.  http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=16051.0 (http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=16051.0)
The cost is only $80.  May occasionally cause the check engine light to come on when you first start the bike.  FatDuc is aware of the issue.  This is caused by the idle being set too rich and over idling (30~40 minutes) resulting in carbon build up in the O2 probe.  Proposed cure includes not idling too long or WOT it once in a while to clean the probe.
http://www.fatduc.com/ (http://www.fatduc.com/)

Competition Systems' Nemesis - Aftermarket replacement ECU for the 749/999/1098/S4RS/Hypermotard. Allows you to switch instrument cluster and adjust just about everything the ECU controls. Here's the pdf http://www.mmcompsys.com/download_zone/4_fuel_parts/Nemesis%202%20installation%20notes_01.pdf (http://www.mmcompsys.com/download_zone/4_fuel_parts/Nemesis%202%20installation%20notes_01.pdf)
http://www.mmcompsys.com/motorsportsengine.html (http://www.mmcompsys.com/motorsportsengine.html)

Microtec - Aftermarket replacement ECU for several Ducati models.
http://www.microtec.cc/cms/en/motorsport-products/engine-management/m197-ecu (http://www.microtec.cc/cms/en/motorsport-products/engine-management/m197-ecu)

UltiMap59 - Product is full ECU replacement and will eliminate the need for an O2 sensor while not triggering the "Check Engine" light. Generation 2 product does not work with stepper motor to smooth out engine while idling. Generation 3 product runs with the stepper motor.  Website is due to be updated with new info on Gen 3.  One major upshot is the ability to use any aftermarket speedo/tach display and the disabling of the immobilizer. Dynotuners for this product limited in US.
http://www.ultimap-ecu.com/ (http://www.ultimap-ecu.com/)

Reflashing stock ECU to DP ECU - Several services offering reflashing of all Ducati stock ECU's to DP ECU specs including, but not limited to Monstermash, Desmo Porsche, etc... It includes immobilizer disable, O2 sensor disable and raises the rev limit (at customer's request). The cost of the reflash is approximately $450.00. Some ongoing happenings in this thread:
http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=34252.0 (http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=34252.0)
Members have had recent success with reflashing via Mota-Lab: http://www.mota-lab.com/ (http://www.mota-lab.com/)

ProTune ECU Remap Kit - Allows reprograming of the Magneti Marelli 5AM and previous 59M units, which are used on all post 1987 Ducati models with 9 stages of tuning available (including reverting to OEM map).  Product introduced March'09...need user input!
http://www.motowheels.com (http://www.motowheels.com/italian/myproducts.cfm?parentcategoryid=1054|Monster%20Engine&productID=6854&showDetail=1&categoryID=1079|Monster%20Engine%20Fuel%20%26%20Air&vendoridtodisplay=0&filterFor=&collection=168|European%20Motorcycle%20Parts)

RapidBike 3 - RapidBike is having distributor drama.  Please read link below or 2nd post on page 5 of this thread before buying http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=7590.0 (http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=7590.0)
Mixed results. Some people love it. Other people says the support is bad and it fried their ECU or won't hold a map in memory. Latest from RapidBike is that their piggyback unit used in conjunction with the O2 eliminator works very well. However, the O2 eliminator only works with their system.
Note: Rapid Bike redesigned the O2 eliminator this winter for 2007-2008 bikes. New O2 module now shipping and is able to add or subtract fuel across the board by twisting the plug to new settings.  The instruction is poorly written with conflicting info and customer service from the main importer is spotty.  Does NOT work with the stepper motor for cold starts.
http://rapidbike.dimsport.com/indexrapid.php?DS=89295c90113848a097a28593b0a7aa0d&lang=en (http://rapidbike.dimsport.com/indexrapid.php?DS=89295c90113848a097a28593b0a7aa0d&lang=en)

Techlusion TFI Fuel Injection Module - Suppose to work for all Ducati modes by adding fuel across the board in 3 RPM zones. Need user feedback.
http://www.dobeckperformance.com/default.asp (http://www.dobeckperformance.com/default.asp)

FactoryPro' Teka Box - Product is in development. Have already been fitted to 3 bikes with good feedback. Currently only available out of FactoryPro's shop in N.California (you lucks dogs!), but may be able to ship product in 6 month to shops that use their Dyno systems. The box eliminates the O2 sensor while maintaining the stepper motor. Dynotuners for this product limited in US.
http://www.factorypro.com/index.htm (http://www.factorypro.com/index.htm)

Jefferies MyECU - Aftermarket replacement ECU from Australia. Website suggests it is a new company with 1 employee. Website has customer testimonials, but no before&after dynomaps. Need user feedback. Does not work with Monsters after 2003, which has a newer two connector ECU. Good write-up here: http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=13043.0;topicseen (http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=13043.0;topicseen)
http://jefferies-au.org/MyECU/index.htm (http://jefferies-au.org/MyECU/index.htm)

Let me know if I missed any or am wrong about anything!

If anybody is bored enough, they could look at the off-the-shelf maps from PowerCommander to get an idea of the mixture changes made for stock, stock + pipes, and stock + pipes + airbox.

New Dynojet info from C_Rex posted in original thread.

Does anybody have any first hand experience with the Remus Fuelerizer?  That might be an interesting, low-cost option.

Any way to get the power commander to disable the Immobilizer?

nope

FYI -- Will be trying production quality BoomTubes on a S4Rs in a few weeks with Rapidbike and O2-stuff via dyno.  I'll report results then.

Q I posted on the DML but not much feedback.  We (or should I saw our engine tuner) used to tweak the O2-sensor on Nissan's by wiring resisters in parallel  (or was it in series?) with the O2-sensor to fool the computer in what it was reading. Same problem as with the Ducati ECU "closed loop" problem now. Didn't know if anyone has played with this on the Ducati to change the range of what the O2-sensor actually reads? 

Another crude "trick" might be to play with the air temp sensor - make it read a bit colder than actual all the time and I think you would get an overall trim adjustment to compensate.

Didn't think so,  :'(

There is a hand few of shops that have been able to make the PC3 work with the S4RS/S4RT models without a DP ECU.  Several of us have taken advantage of the special knowledge on this subject from TJ at Corse Superbikes in Milwaukee.  He is not the only tuner in the country but he's pretty good. 

My limited understanding is that once the PC3 is installed it "fights" with the O2 sensor, constantly trying to make opposite adjustments.  Typically if you remove the O2 sensor the light comes on and the ECU reverts to the "default" fuel map and renders the PC3 worthless. 

What TJ and a few others are doing is removing the O2 sensor and replacing it with a resistor.  He then wires up a PC3 designed for a 1000ie or a 06 S4R.  This allows the ECU to think all is well with the O2 sensor and not make adjustments while the PC3 does what it does.  Now I may be a little crude in my understanding of what he does but I gave him $650 and he have me a working PC3 with a custom map that makes the bike run OH SO SEXY. 
If any of you are in the Midwest it is worth your time to look him up.  Grazi is the one who fist had it done and may understand the process better than I.

Good luck
Luke

Thanks for this info.  I'd be very interested in hearing whether anyone has first-hand knowledge as to whether this same strategy has also been successful with the S2R1K.

Dave

 I'm not so sure it's quite that simple. If it was I think DynoJet would have a solution by now, no?

 Also I think your interpretation of why the PCIII doesn't work when the O2 in disconnected is a bit off. If the ECU did just reverted to a default map then it would be easy for the PCIII to change the fueling.

 At that point, all we would have to do is unplug the O2, disconnect the battery to reset the ECU and install a PCIII and have it dyno tuned and the problem would be solved.

 Just an FYI, I received an email from Dusty at DynoJet a few weeks ago and they have suspended all R&D on the PCIII's for the S2R1K's.  >:( Which kind of pisses me off because if another company (Dimsport/Rapid Bike) can figure it out why can't they? DynoJet has also claimed that the O2 emulator Dimsport is using is a ripoff of their model for Aprilia's. Hmmmmmm......... Make me wonder.......

Hmmm, I was going to go up to TJ but after this talk, I'm not sure.  A resistor would do nothing in the place of a narrow band o2 sensor as the signal is sent to the ECU as a voltage pulse, rather than a variable resistance...  Still, I might try.  I'd take a functioning tuning system, however crudely done, over what I have now.

Perhaps you guys are correct on my misunderstanding of exactly how TJ make the PC3 work.  He didn’t exactly consult with me about how it should be done. ;)  However these results along with my fist had experience of the fact that the bike runs great should fix any concerns.  You should contact Corse Superbikes about any questions 262-284-2725.  You'll find that they may be the best Ducati service dealer in the Midwest.

Sorry that the HP line is pretty light and hard to read but the "MaxHP" line should settle any debate.  Open airbox and full Arrows without baffles and it doesn't pop a bit.
(http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm98/lukevn/05-22-2007013145pm2.jpg)

Even Dynojet's supposedly soon to be released new PC3 for the S*R will not play well with the first 25% throttle on a stock ECU.  The DP ECU however will allegedly run/map beautimussly from 0-WoT.   

Anyone know anything about the FIM UltiMap U59.

http://www.fuelinmoto.com.au/

 This is a link to their product page. According to the website it works with the M1000 which is a DS like the one's that come in our S2R1K's. It goes on to state that it eliminates the immobilizer.

 I wonder what effect it would have on the O2 sensor? Could this be an alternative to the DP ECU? Of course not thaty it matters considering the price.  [bang]

The new RapidBike O2 emulator essentially does this.  It has 3 settings (by rotating the a ring on the sensor) for the amount of extra fuel it tricks the ECU into dumping.  So far, the primary importer in Brooklyn, NY have had good results.  He alleges that he has lost sales to the full RB3 system because the O2 adjustment works so well.  A poster on TOB installed the new sensor, by itself but was very unhappy with the results.  Unconfirmed that he dinstalled porperly or adjusted it properly...so foe me the jury is still out.  I was going to mess around with the RB3 method, but the economy isn't so hot, so I'm putting it off for another season.


This route has merits.  It seems to be the consensus that whenthe O2 emulator is removed, the stock ECU goes into opem mode after <100 miles.  The was the route RB3 initially took, but the ECU is pretty smart and will periodically ping the O2 sensor to see if it is working.  This "pinging" caused some RB O2 emulators to burnout.  This burning out of the emulator seems to be concentrated in 2007 models, but I don't know for sure.  Perhaps TJ was able to find the "correct" resistors to use.  I'd be pretty curious to learn how much of the signal is altered since the ECU is pretty sophisticated. 
The one question I hope someone can comment on is if the "Engine Maintenance" light remains on with this approach.  That is the down-side of just disconnecting the O2 sensor.

'Mash,
[WILD GUESS] MAybe Dynojet higher legal scrutiny as the market leader (they were fined couple millions a few years back by CA).  I wonder if they have figured it out, but are only selling proiducts that remap avoer 25% of throttle or 4,000 RPM stock mapping to to conform to emmission laws and not necessarily open/close ECU problem.
[/WILD GUESS]

I have a CF Arrow full system, open airbox, K&N, and a DP ECU on my S4RS, and it goes like stink when your on the throttle, I had some tuning issues with the DP ECU when I first had it installed, but after several sessions on the dyno my dealer was able to get it where I liked it. My only complaint is with the DP ECU it seems to run very rich below 4500 rpms. I plan on doing a PCIII with a custom map to help the bottom end. I will post the results as they come.

 While this has some merit I would disagree only because they have a "new" PCIII that is designed for "road use" rather than the old unit that was designed as a "closed course/racing use only."

 So if they really had a solution I would venture to guess they would be selling it with "closed course only" disclaimer.

'Mash,
Ultimap would eliminate the immobilizer.  It would also (I believe) eliminate the O2 sensor since it is an open loop ECU.  I don't remember if the S2R1k's have a stepper motor for low idle.  If it does, there isn't a FIM product that works with it yet.  Also, it's harder to find a good tuner for Ultimap, but Brian at BMC is suppose to be fairly experienced.

UPDATED: RapidBike comes with poorly written instructions with conflicting information.  CUstomer service from the main importer is spotty.

FIM/Ultimap ecu is not suppose to work with the newer engines because of the stepper motor and O2 sensor. So the bike wont be able to idle. The S2R1000 is suppose to have a Stepper.

CDawg, do you know of anyone who has positive results with the O2 emulator? I have an 06 S2R1k and if it can inject a bit more fuel, id be all down for it.

So far I've only hear of 2 reviews.  One person could get it to run properly and was waiting for the full RB3 before making a final call.  The second person could tell any difference.  Although, He Man, if you decide to go for the O2 emulator route, I would suggest calling Robert Foster (the importer at RapidBike USA) and stoping by Brooklyn to either have them do it or make sure you can follow the instructions.  When I spoke to Robert ~4 weeks ago, he was very positive on the emulator, but considering the source...Personally, since my exhaust works fine with stock O2 sensor/ECU, I'm going to wait until more positive results.

http://www.rapidbikeusa.com/contact.html

By Brooklyn, do you mean Brooklyn the borough? the guys up at ECS have great things to say about RB3s. Now.. just need to find this thing called job....

Yes.  RapidBike USA (the main importer) is located at Oakland Gardens, Brooklyn.

What industry are you job hunting in?

then why use RB and O2-stuff...after that Nissan parallel/series experience

soorry but you don't have the whole picture....same problem like on dml: my friend told me, I heard from...and so on. This doesn't help much, but if you are a moderator for this forum then I understand you are trying...

this time you are off...here talking bad about "main importer" and after a while you suggest...that way...main importer... [laugh]...did he bribe you... [wine]
BTW who said about results?! "main importer" doesn't suppose to sell to end users, but this is an italian kind of business

What's that conflicting information?! why didn't you ask the "main importer"...

About FIM with regrets but I have to keep my previous opinion....no customer service, it's easier to talk with your president then with FIM and if you get an email back it's your lucky month. I sent a defective one about 2 month ago (after 1 year of trying) and still nothing...and I'm ready to pay for everything.
One small detail, they don't have ecu's for new models....so relax.

About rigged PC... you need advance not just AFR and also I don't remember one on a '07 up...correct me if I'm wrong.
About Xskjfn from Dynojet saying RBO2 is something they made for Aprilia...but they'll never produce same thing... [coffee]

DP kit from your rich dealer....just compare with $2k for full Arrow TI (or Giannelli, or GPR), RB3 kit (with RBO2 for '07 up) & K&N filter...remember RB3 is working on whatever FI bike or atv, so it's a long term investment. GPR also has a tuning module cheaper, but I'm working on that. On the other hand, like I said many times, we have to support Ducati Corse and those results...so buy DP stuff.

What else...aaa, yes...what was the deal with the other forum, who sold it who bought it...and who was screwed and opened another forum...

Al,
Glad you found us here!  Look, I'm just trying to do the best I can.  We've had this conversation on TOB when I started this thread there.  This entire thread is a collection of other people's experiences so it is going to be he said, she said.  Since I don't have the means to objectively test every combination of ECU mod and every bike, then best I can do is to dutifully report everything I hear without judgement so people can make up their own mind. 

I don't get compensated by Richard.  I don't get compensated by you, nor by FIM or Dynojet.  I don't get any compensation at all except the satisfaction that folks find this thread helpful as a starting point for their due diligence. 

Please cut me some slack; I'm not trying to mess with your business. Scouts honor, I'm just trying to get all the info in one place.

I see this thread as completely clinical and applaud CDawg for taking the initiative to keep track of the possible O2 solutions here.

Moto4US.com- Please, instead of griping at CDawg you might take the time to ask how the RB solution can be improved from a CUSTOMER perspective.  The nature of this thread is that your potential customers are trying to find solutions for the closed loop ECU problem.  You must admit that RB suffers a slight disadvantage in that there aren't nearly as many technicians experienced with it which forces people to have to try and install it themselves (or not).  Forums provide loads of product feedback and any DIY'er is most likely going to look for some helpful decision making feedback- hence, this thread.  Make it the easiest, best working solution and you'll have no problem selling it.  Not trying to slam you but you'd be better served to make the product more friendly rather than go on the offensive when something so very remotely disparaging about the RB solution is said.  CDawg notes many positives about the RB, and does not mistate results posted here or elsewhere.

Read several posts above and you'll see that Mark at MotoCreations is going to use a RB solution to attempt to resolve the closed loop issue for a set of S4RS Boom Tubes.  He'll be using my bike, so as you can see I'm open to the RB as much as any other solution.  I am just one of many potential customers.  Let's make some happy riders.  [thumbsup]

The big picture is more complex, involving Dimsport...I wrote this before and I don't want to spend more time for some dummkopfs (not talking about you guys, you are just customers)...I'm taking care of my business and my customers and I don't spend anymore time&money to push this product when nobody else, including the producer, isn't going in right direction.
Don't get me wrong I want to sell but I'm getting tired to test everything, back up the product and the producer and many more details.
Please let me know if you have more technical questions.

I had a rigged PC on my old 06 s2r1k....posted on it on TOB and on a tech thread here.   don't have the money to pay to do it again, but i just traded someone the DP pipe that came on my new 06 s2r1k for a part i needed to put my spark header back on.  Now when i get around to putting it all back on i'm gonna try and rig the PCIII to this bike myself.  (don't hold your breath but i'll post up how it goes)

Now unless there's a big difference between the 06 and 07, do you really NEED advance?  when i had it done i just had AFR mapped and was a pretty happy camper.   now....would timing advance and rev limiter be nice and make it better.....my guess is probably, but i'm looking for a little boost, along with the sight and sound of the exhaust and intake of my choice...not looking to shave lap time.

Here's my rigged PCIII dyno from a while back...  pod filters, spark midpipe, leo vince Ti sbk slip on

(https://lh5.ggpht.com/FlSurfDog/SDyTEwX1F9I/AAAAAAAAAD4/FQ7eHT4mf1g/mikess2r1000dyno.jpg?imgmax=512)

Good to see.  I'd have hoped that a run with the header pipe, slip ons and PC 3 would be getting closer to 90hp, though.  Do you have an open airbox?

1st post updated with RB3: "1 case reported of not working with the stepper motor for an 06 S2r1k."

 [laugh] biensure you loose the stepper motor and only when it's cold (like under 50F) you'll have to help it with 5-10% throttle, other then that I never had a problem (actually when starts the idle fluctuate a little bit for few sec, then perfect).
Again this is more then funny...I heard "1 case reported of not working with the stepper motor..."   [popcorn]

I had K&N pod filters on that run.  I was thinkning the numbers looked a little low too....  maybe a similar dyno to the one monstermash had his bike on since his numbers didn't look so hot either.....dunno

Al,
Does that apply to the S4RS as well?  Thx!

But that's exactly how mine ran with the rigged PCIII.  I had hoped the bike wouldn't need that sort of help with the RB...

yes, but again you may have problems only when cold outside...just a little throttle help for few sec isn't big deal if you really want to ride in winter...and there are differences from bike to bike. I had only 2-3 bikes (talking about S2R or S2RS) in 3 years with this "problem"....and we have few more factory settings in this equation (like we all know, bikes running great from factory and some "not so good").
In fact if I have the bike here I can adjust that with my pro software.

On the other hand we cannot compare POCO here...

are you saying you have to disconnect the idle control valve when you fit the RB?

Hey all,

I've recently installed full Arrow Titaniums, K&N filter, and an RB3 with the O2 emulator (2006 S2R1000) and am having some problems.  Overall it seems to be running lean (popping on decel) and runs fairly rough below 4k rpms.  It also stumbles badly at around 7k while under WOT.  If I rev the bike more slowly it does not stumble.  I've tried various troubleshooting methods, new plugs, baffles in/out, airbox cover on/off, but to no avail.  Anyone else experience this problem?  Any ideas on what the issue may be?

Thanks,

Inka

Why can't you just unplug the o2 sensor? That should put the computer back in closed loop and throw a check engine light but you should be able to add a PC3 and be able to tune it then.

Peavey,

I could try that, but I spent $600 on a RB3 and O2 module and I want it to work as advertised!  Also, as you are probably aware, there is no PCIII for the S2R1000 and no consistent results with the module for the i.e monsters.

-Inka

Inka, sounds like you may need some dyno time and some fuel map tweaks.  Where did you get you fuel/ignition map?  You might want to contact Al at moto4us for assistance.  He was very helpful to me in getting the RB3 working on my Hypermotard.  I'm very happy with the results from the RB3.

Same problem over here (but i think i had a better fuel map so it ran very well below 4k rpms.) 07 S2R1000
When i rev the bike full it dies at 6500rpm (feels like the rev limiter kicks in) and then continous reving further like it should.
If i rev the bike slowly no problem.
Accept in 6th gear then it doesn't matter if i rev hard or slowly, and then it also stumbles further in the higher revs after 6500rpms.
Not very nice if the bike is starting to stumble at those speeds  >:(

(http://www.mijnalbum.nl/Foto-BTKVC8RZ.jpg)

Went on dyno but they could not get the RB3 to work to change the ignition, adding fuel did not solve the problem.
So we tried RB2 ,cause someone had the same problem with his S4RS and the RB2 with O2emulator worked fine for him.
But didn't do the trick for me.
Then we put on RB1 without O2emulator (O2sensor plugged in) and changed the fuelmap where the O2sensor doesn't do his job. Runs very well now but having a lot of loud popping at decel.So i think that is not the way to go either.Don't know what to do next,think i go back to stock and just wait and see if someone knows a fix and i can put back on the RB3 with O2emulator.

Edit: The engine's oil temp runs about 15-20 °C cooler now.

Appeltjuh

Thanks guys for the responses.  I have been in contact with Al from the beginning and although he has been extremely helpful throughout the whole process, he's a bit stumped at this point too.  I spoke with the U.S. distributer yesterday and he suggested that I may have an older version of the software on the module.  I will have to check this evening and see.  He also said that there are new maps available.  Hopefully those fixes will cure the ills, but if it doesn't I may have to dismantle the whole thing, go back to stock, and start over.

Inka

I don't own a s2r1000 but did read the old ECU mod thread at TOB.

is the DP ECU for a m1000s useful to owners of this bike? I think I remembert it was.

(DP part no is 96513303b)

I believe yes, but then the original poster couple it with a PCIII to tune it.  If memory serves, the poster was pleased, but it was not perfect like the proper DP ECU but a few $$$ cheaper.

For what it is worth, Competition Systems (UK) is developing their next version of the Nemesis which should work with all late model Ducati, including the S4RS.  This is an ECU replacement unit, not a piggy back unit.  They are currently in hardware development phase and have a soft target of 8 weeks before the dealers have it...but we all know how new product launches are...They offer a product for the 1098, so I am optimistic that they can crack the ECU codes of the S4RS.

The price tag for their 1098 model is ~GBP600-700 which is about the price of a DP ECU

I'm going to remain stock ECU for this season (cost, warranty, etc...), but I wonder if the Nemesis will allow me to use any aftermarket instrument cluster???

UPDATE:

Sent back my RB 3 unit to Al and he updated the software.  Apparently there was a fix to specifically address the stumbling in the 7k rpm range.  I got it back and have a couple of rides on it, and low and behold, the problem is gone.  It runs much smoother and seems to have quite a bit more power in the higher rpm ranges.  I'll need to do some more riding before I decide if any more tweaking is necessary, but so far, so good.

I have to say that most of the stuff relating to this thread goes over my head, but from an inexperienced view it appears thet DP have a strangle hold on the systems of the late model engines. It obvoiusly takes some time for the privateers to hack into the system and produce consistent results. As it may still be some time away I think I will go with the Termi Kit.
There has been very little complaint from the people who have the DP System.

I understand FIM has the FIM U59 ECU which is a direct replacment ECU.  Silverback Performance is a US dealer and have done some testing.

Here is their website    http://www.silverbackperformance.net/

True, but they don't have application for the S4RS...been waiting forever.  Also, do note that FIM does not work with the stepper motor.  Nemesis is rumored to be coming out with something for the S4RS and the S2R1K in ~ 8 weeks.  The problem with their product is that the starter button becomes conventional (i.e., you keep it pressed until it starts, unlike the stock/DP ECU where a quick press and release begins a start-up algorithim)

CDawg,

give Fred at Silverback a call or email him at fred@silverbackperformance.net, he wrote to my buddy and said they had it working for a '07 S4R.  They were just finishing up some of the custom maps.  I think the price was around $800 to $900 for it.

Thanks!  I've got a call in.  Fred's on vacation and will get back to me next week.  Thanks for the lead!

When you speak with them, can you also ask whether they have any solutions for the S2R1K and, if so, relay some of the details? Thanks!

Will do.  So far they have impressed on me that it is a very powerful tool, but few dealers know how to use it properly.  It has apparently 3 main files: (1) A/F map, (2) Cold enrichment file, and (3) ignition timing file plus others.

Never heard back from Fred @ Silverback Performance

From Al at Moto4US.com
http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=7590.0


From Desmoworks

Wow,  that is some disappointing news, as I am the owner of a RB3 and RB02 and was hoping to get some more distributer support as I'm still not completely happy with how the bike runs.  I purchased my RB about two months ago from Al, and he was extremely generous with his time and knowledge.   It seemed like he was doing almost all of the work to make the product a go here in the states, but that the distributer and the manufacturer weren't supporting the product as they should have.  I knew I took a risk on the RB vice the DP ECU, and well, sometimes you win and sometimes you lose.  I don't feel like I've "lost" yet, as the bike is running ok and the module hasn't given up the ghost. Hopefully I'll be able to do some fine tuning and get it dialed in.  Al, as always, thanks for your support, your honesty, and your dedication.   The bike world needs more people like you,

-Kirk

Kirk,, I am in the same boat as U. I am actually "The Canadian Monument of Patience" that Al was talking about in his last post on other thread.  It sucks that Al has given up with RB.

I believe he has done as much as he could to help us costumers. The Old Unit's did not work with the 07 bikes. How much help or backing did he receive from Dimsport with those old units ? Not much likely, or he would still be selling them. My  RB3 with new software(which Al is sending) should be back to me shortly.
I expect to do some fine tuning as well.
Maybe I missed something in one of these threads, BUT,, has anybody done any Dyno testing with the RB3. Has anybody been able to match the HP #s that the DP ECU has been making with the S4RS ?

My buddy heard back from Fred and said the ECU is working great.  He did mention that Fred was on vacation for sometime.  You may want to shoot him another email.

Race track version of the PC3 is available for the Hypermotard. Has anyone tried using it on an S2R1000?

Race version only allows mapping of the upper RPMs and leaves the lower RPM range untouched. How much lower in the RPM range does it lock out? i dont know. Any one know more about this?

Race version either starts around 4K rpm or 25% throttle.  I've hard both depending on which model and year for PCIII.  I'm not sure Dynojet has truly crack the code yet.

OK - so I just read this entire thread.  Correct me if I'm wrong as this topic is greek to me.

For the S4RS models, the easiest setup is a DP ECU w/Termis?  Everything else (PC3, Arrows) will suffer from nagging problems? Or further mods?

Again, my apologies for my ignorance, the next big step on my bike is to install a full-system (preferably Arrows) but now I'm not 100% I want to embark on that path  :-\

Welcome to the "Dont Want to Put on Termi's Club"
Oh shit,, I think both the Arrow Exhaust Cans come up on the Clutch side like the Termi's  [bang] :)

If I had to do it again(not yet knowing how my RB3 is going to work) I would buy the Termi's with DP ECU. Sell the Termi's & buy what exhaust I really wanted.

So far,, no one with the RB3 & a S4RS has posted better performance gains then the DP ECU. Other pipes do work with the DP ECU.

Edited. To my knowledge. Termi's & DP ECU = $2000 - $2400 installed. That was a Yr ago. Prices are probably up (not sure if tuning bike is included in this cost) DP ECU = $1100 if bought separately. That was also last Yr. IF(note the BIG "IF") A person could sell the Termi's for,, lets say 1200 - 1400. U might save,,,,,,,,,,,,ahhh frick,Just go buy the DP ECU & get it over with,lol ;D

 I'm not sure the Hm has an O2 sensor does it? If so, has DJ figured out a way around it? and if so, why the hell haven't they figured it out for the S2R1K??

 Also if your going to get a PCIII for an S2R1K wouldn't it make more sense to get one for an M1000? They both have the same DS engine.

I question the value of buying a PCIII that locks out the adjustment at low RPMs and/or partial throttle.  I'm convinced that its the remapping in those areas that provides the most noticable improvement in day-to-day rideability (how much time do you spend at WOT on the street?).  Once you get the DP ECU, you can add one of the older PCIIIs that allows adjustment of the entire map.  You might even be satisfied with just the DP ECU.

the m1000 PC3 doenst have a way around the ECU. the HM1100 PC3 does. Most people who have gotten the PC3 to work with the S2R1k used the m1000ie one.

If only Ultimap came out with a stepper motor compatible ECU already. 600 bucks for RB3 like controls that completely replace your ECU.

My apologies if this was covered in the last 4 pages... honestly somewhere around the middle of page 3 I think I lost consciousness.  [coffee]

I would just like to know if I have ordered all I need to order.
The bike: 2006 S4R
The parts: Arrow CF Full exhaust, PCIII (old version) and a flat K&N filter.

I realize that it will need to be tuned… planning on 2 -3 hours of Dyno tuning at the dealer however, do I need any additional parts? Does my bike have an 02 sensor?

the latest version of the U59 is capable of running the idle valve.

Brad, Thanks for the heads-up.  That's very exciting!  Can't wait to see people's feedback and find someone near NYC who knows how to tune it!

From FIM's website:
Major Website update coming soon !!
It's been a long time, and things are always changing, so for now this page has shrunk to nothing. We will be adding information about the current U59 third generation ECU and all the new models its covers (including Hypermotard)...

Minor update from Dynojet on Power Commanders:

PowerCommander III - Dynojet now lists a PCIII for a 2008 S4R (which is odd...as there are no S4R in 2008) module which does not tune below 5250 RPM and below 19% throttle unless you also have the DP ECU.  Their 1098 PCIII has the same disclosure. 

Full re-write on Dynojet's Power Commander:

PowerCommander III - There are several options people have taken.  If you want to run stock ECU, Dynojet now lists a PCIII for a 2008 S4R (which is odd...as there are no S4R in 2008) module which does not tune below 5250 RPM and below 19% throttle unless you also have the DP ECU.  Supposedly if you have the DP ECU then you can use the "non race" versions which is fully adjustable...still being verified.  A third option is to use the stock ECU, but disconnect the O2 sensor and use the PC III for designed for a 1000ie or a 06 S4R (part number 717-411)  which has full range of adjustments.  You wil need to pay for a custom map and the "check engine" light will stay on constantly. Dynotuners are widely available.

CDawg,

Any luck with speaking with Fred at Silverback Performance about the U59 ECU?  It appears they have figured out the O2 sensor for the stepper motor but no one on the board has installed one yet.  We need a guinea pig.   [evil]

I haven't placed a second call yet.  I'm out of the office this afternoon and will try to call both Silverback (3rd Gen Ultimap) and DynoJet (PCIII for DPECU) tomorrow and report back.

This may be of some interest to you guys.

http://www.ducati.ms/forums/showthread.php?t=49891

Dynojet and DP ECU: Same hardware, just a different map.  My guess is the map for stock ECU is zeroed out for RPM <5250 and <19% throttle. 

Spoke to Fred today. 
First off:  What a nice and patient man! [thumbsup] Here's his feedback: 

FIM Ultimap G3...product is shipping, but he has yet to install one on a Monster.  The ECU is tricky to tune.  Since he hasn't developed a base map on it, he is hesitant to just ship me an ECU and hope I can get it tuned.  ECU price does not come with tuning software or cable connector

Nemesis: Works great on the 1098, but he had invested 5 days last winter to develop a base map for cold start.  His cold start map is now incorporated into the default Nemesis map.  Nemesis has benn saying that a Monster version is just weeks away for a few month now.  He is real thrilled with the Nemesis on the 1098.  Expensive at $1400 (but come with cable and software)

Rapidbike: Nice looking product but huge lack of support issues

PCIII: His suggestion for just exhaust and airbox mod is to just unplug the O2 sensor and use PCIII to tune.  This may mean with living with "Check Engine" light.

DP ECU: He is real down on DP ECU.  Mentioned that the DP ECU has the same part number for multiple bike models and there is no way that one map works for all those different bikes.

 I am still very confused by this suggestion. From everything I've heard in the past, even with the O2 unplugged this will not work. BCM tried to make a PCIII work in this way and was unsuccessful.

 There is an S2R1K for sale in the classified section and the owner states he has a PCIII installed. I suggested this option on TOB and was told it wouldn't work.

 So whats the real story? Anyone have any first hand experience with a PCIII installed on an S2R1K with the stock ecu and the O2 unplugged?

 From what I understand there is some different ignition timing on the DP ecu as well.

I've heard the exact same story. Though a member on this forum (hypurone) heard otherwise and I'd like to know where he got his info from. Also, i found this quote by desmoworks on ducati.ms

DucShop did it on my 06....I think i already wrote it up somewhere on this thread.....did it a few times on TOB

 Ok, so is there some sort of trick involved to make it work or is it just plug and play like on the non closed loop bikes?

 Obviously there will need to be a custom map but otherwise....?

 Also, if it's as simple as just removing the O2 then why doesn't DynoJet offer a PCIII (the race version) for the S2R1K?

 In addition, why doesn't Desmoworks offer the GPR O2 eliminator for sale on their website?

Did some thread searching. this is Flursdog post


Located here...http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=1601.msg27148#msg27148

And regarding the RB3 unit, I'm gonna call up ECS since they were doing tuning Ducatis and RB3s for a bit. See what details i can get from them. I keep going back to the old posts on this thread and all i can get from moto4us is  ;D [laugh] [wine] @ any problems of the RB unit, and we still dont know the true story on whats going on with it.

Update on Nemesis:

Competition Systems' Nemesis - Aftermarket replacement ECU for the 749/999/1098. Application for other Ducati's in the works.  Application for S4RS(T) is second in line for development (Hypermotard is ucrrently being developed--ready around October 2008).  S4RS application tentatively scheduled for Nov'2008.

My dealer (Den Biggelaar in the Netherlands) says on his site that he can rewrite any Ducati ECU from 2003 and up

Its cool that its as adjustable as an RB3 module, and entirely replaces the ECU. But it doenst make it any more cost effective than a DP unit. Though for race applications its great.


Id tell him to put his money where his mouth is and produce an adjustable S2R1k ECU without an O2 sensor.

He allways delivers ,and is by far the best dealer in the world (42 year ducati dealer)
If you let him tune your bike you get a dyno before and after

Could you check on the application? Is he running a FIM chip?

It is actually more expensive than a DP ECU (~$1200 vs. ~$1400), but according to several folks the DP ECU is only a good start and you should really get a PC III on top of it which is another $350.  The Nemesis does allow you to get rid of the immobilizer and use any after market dash...

People have said so much about "yea we can do E3 bikes with the o2 sensor" etc.

its always a big fat lie to bring in people. DPECUs cannot be adjusted, you can flash them since it really is just a chip. but youd have to know what the DP ECU speaks. which is about the same levels as cracking a code.

This guy doesn't lie
Mailed him what he could do with the after 2003 ECU's
Answer : everything
He can reprogram it ,adjust it , remove the immobilizer ,adjust fuel , adjust ignition, remove rev limm
I want to say that this shop give warrenty on every thing the do

Could you provide a tel or email...I'd like to see what he help me with on a S4RS that runs too lean.

Sounds like you know this guy pretty well. Im with CDawg, please provide contact information so we can get pricing. Someone here can donate a stock ecu to have it reflashed and tried on someone else's bike.

Email adres: werkplaats@biggelaar-performance.com

His site ,there is a small englisch section http://www.biggelaar-performance.com/

I want to say that this guy is only my ducati dealer so if he makes money i ain't getting any of it  ;D

Thanks!  No worries as my wife speaks dutch.

Cdawg let us know how that goes. I bought a power commander 3 today and will attempt to use it on my 06 S2R1K........... When I get my make the beast with two backsing bike back

This guy has found a pot of gold. I might just nip over the channel and talk to him.

Martin,
Glad it workesd out for you.  IMHO, the reason the PCIII didn't work smoothly at first is because the O2 sensor sends a variable input back to the ECU instead of a fix value.  That was the problem that RapidBike faced with its 2007 O2 emulator.  Keep us posted on the Dyno run results from next spring!  Good to know that found a work around.

I wonder why Monstermash and NAKID didnt run into that problem.

The 06 S2R1k is not suppose to display the check engien light with the o2 removed, only the 07.

Added to 1st page:

FatDuc O2 Manipulator - Aftermarket plug-n-play that sits between the O2 sensor and the ECU.  It has a dial that allows the user to modify the reading that the O2 sensor is sending back to the ECU.  This causes the ECU to think it is running lean thereby adding more fuel. The effect should only be felt during the closed loop part of the ECU map.  A few people have tried it and are happy with the results.  The cost is only $80.
http://www.fatduc.com/

UPDATE: put my fat duc manipulator on this morning before commute.  Immediately noted smoother idle, no stalling on idle.  Much smoother power on from 3-4K and now capable of riding below 4K though obviously not "on" power.

Uhhh... This is exactly what DucShop did on my 06 s2r1k about a year and a half ago. Although you do explain the process much more clearly than i could (don't know much about all this) but i also had the same results.  It was a little crummy when really cold out, but once warmed up it was perfect.  I'd reccomend it to anyone.  (unless of course you commute only like 2 miles to and from work a day)

Mike

Factory links added to the 1st post for ease of research.

Can Monstermash or NAKID comment on their experience with their PCIII and S2R1k? Now it seems like i cant use a PCIII at all since i ride my bike all the way down to the 20's (yes Fahrenheit!)

:(

This guy has a Rapid bike 3 on the for sale ad though!

I don't have a rapid bike on sale if you're talking about me.  I was selling my PCIII off of my crashed s2r1k because i was thinking about going with a rapid bike unit on my "new" 06 s2r1k, mostly because cold idling was a problem since i was making short trips to work every day when it was 30F in the mornings.  I talked about this on TOB and a couple threads here too.

not you, i ment someone below in the parts for sale section. I just called up rapidbikeus and they said if i have any issues with it i can contact them.

looks like its RB3 for me!

so has anyone actually used a PCIII on a 695 w/ DP ECU and O2 eliminator?  I've got free access to a dyno for the next 6 months and a PCIII would help a LOT if it works.  Which PCIII would you use, obviously they don't list anything for a 695?

If you have a DP ECU, you don't need an O2 eliminator.  The DP ECU already does that.  You should be able to use any of the reasonable close PCIII since you are custom mapping it.  All it does is sit in between your DP ECU and the various wires.

What he said. you can use any 2v PCIII module.

Hey DMF'ers!  I've posted an interesting idea for potential free HP here.  Love to get some collective wisdom:
http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=12876.0 (http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=12876.0)

 [evil] got a RB3 unit!!!!!!!!!

Will post up details. very excited. Any tips from other RB3 owners? maps?  :)

I just installed the Fat Duc on a 2007 S4R with full Arrows and it does seem to work.  My bike used to hiccup between 2500 - 4000rpms but it seems to have smoothed it out and the bike can be cruised in that range without having to downshift.  For $80 it is worth a try and it really seems to be working at this point.    [thumbsup]

Did you get the RB3 and O2 emulator?  Is it a 2008 emulator? How did you get comfortable with all the back and forth?  Keep us posted!

I got the whole RB3 kit. No idea what year O2 emulator i got (how do i check?). But from the jist of it, it doenst matter on the older 06 bikes, only the 07+ bikes. I have a 2006 S2R1000  Mods: open airbox, cored exahaust.

I actually contact mr foster at Rapidbike USA, he said he would help out where he can with tech support. So i felt good. The seller said Foster is a great guy to work with and had some really good stuff about him. So it gave me some hope in the RB unit.

The unit is actually very well built, but it took over 4 hours to isntall because Goldcoast motorsports, the shop that worked on my bike decided the would put the springs that hold the injector sensors in place backwards. Then I was looking for wires that werent where they said they were. the translation from italian to english is very poor. You could do the install in less than 1 hour though.

Anyway, i hooked it up, and loaded base map for the S2R1000. The software comes with a few hundred maps for various bikes.

How does it work?
Well ive only tried one map so far. which is designed for a bone stock S2R1000. I thought there was gonna be a HUGE difference....well... i cant tel you what huge is.

Low end is MUCH MUCH smoother. No more jerkyness and crusing is much more pleasent. There is a dip around 4500rpm thats as bad as hitting the rev limiter. I havent been able to really try the bike because of this reason. I am gonna go home and try a different map. Hopefully that will solve the problem.

The seller gave me some other maps, but i acnt get them to load. :( Cdawg, your in NYC arent you? Do you know STeve & Jay at ECS? They tune RB3s and ahve nothing but good words for them (last i heard back in June)

The 2008 version has a dial on the O2 mudulator that allows you to vary the signal output to the ECU.  Some of the 2007 emulators got burnt out by the stock ECU.  Apparently the stock ECU will periodically ping the 2007 emulator since it only returned a static signal causing the emulator to get fried.  The 2008 version is suppose to have solved this problem, but no one seems to be willing to confirm or deny



Yup!  I'll give ECS a call.  Rockwell has also done one on a S4R and developed a very good map.  I believe it is for RobS4R.  you could PM him for a map.

then i definitely have the older version. I just got home right now, and i wanna get some hw done so i can work on the bike.

Also, i found out RapidbikeUSA  is in queens lol. freaking CLOSE.

edit: i found out why my bike had a huge dip. the fuel map has a dip at that point for some reason. of a possible 30 points in fuel increase, the "stock" maps' max value is only a 4 point bump. I changed maps to a more generous map. 15point bumps and much smoother. Will test out the ride tomorrow!

Update, the rb3 is acting funny.

It is super smooth hroughout the rpm range when riding smoothly. However, when I cruise at 3800rpm and gun it, my bike just hits aflatspot and my bike feels like I droped an anchor until 5000rpm.

I'm thinking the 02 sensor may be at fault since it supposely cuts off at 4400rpm.

I'm gonna disconnect it and see how it runs. In theory it should be much better since 06 bikes run fine withut them

Talk to Foster about getting your O2 sensor replaced with the 2008 model.  They should, IMO, replace it gratis since RB3 acknowledges the '07 version is buggy.

Disconnecting it could work, but then you are left with the Check Engine light on at all times.  Also, if you disconnect, make sure you doa complete power drain and ride it for 80~100 miles before making a judgement.  It takes time for the stock ECU to give up the ghost and go into open loop mode permanently.

keep me posted on your discovery!

2006 S2R1k wont turn on the check engine light (ive ridden for about 1,000 miles with the o2 sensor unplugged)

some people say doing that will kill your o2 sensor. but the momment i plugged it back in, cleared my ECU the bike pulled much harder than did before.

I will see how my bike runs with the o2 sensor later tonight. THere are too many vehicles on the road right now.

Thanks for the heads up on the O2 emulator replacement I will probably swing by Rapidbike USA on tuesday and try to get a replacement. I wouldd LOVE to get my bike dynoed, but i wanan get my exahust and intake setup before i get a final map.

Update:

The RB3 unit itself wont hold the map for cylinder 1. Atleast thats what it seems like. I might not be doing it right.

The RB3 unit can accept a map, run the bike with that map, but not save it pernamently. once you shut the bike of, the map dissapears. These temp maps are stored in the RAM. The maps you want to keep are sent to the flash eeprom.

So you can send map, but not save to flash, and when you try to start the bike, it is still running its previous map.

Also, since there is a map for each cylinder, you have to make sure you send all maps. I tried it a billion different ways, but it seems like the RB3 unit wont save the timing map, and the cylinder 1 map. only cylinder 2 map will save. after toying around with it, i decided to remove the RBo2 emulator. I connected the regular o2 sensor up and it still did the same thing. I unplugged the o2 sensor and tried again. It saved the map! but im not sure if it will stay in the RB unit.

I also managed to get of my ass after collecting parts for the past 2 weeks, and installed a relay onto my heater grips! bravo to me!

im not gonna start the bike up since its midnight right now and i dont wanna wake up anyone. Tomorrow i will go for a ride and see how the bike runs and update this again.

Another update:

Did the some research. Flat spots are dips in power resulting from too little fuel or too much fuel. I HIGHLY doubt it was too much fuel so i decded to just pour fuel into that area of the map. I bumped the surrounding areas and the speciifc TPS value of 20% where my problem occured. and voila! gone. I backed the fuel points down until the problem occured again, and bumped it back up by 3 points. and smoothened the area out. I must say the bike has gotten MUCH better.

With the RB3 my front wheel actually comes off the ground a tee bit in 2nd gear thorugh power itself. Before it would throw me in the back of my seat and thats it. Result of smoother power? or more power? ill leave that up to you guys to figure it out. I will be going for a dyno tune once i get my whole bike figured out intake and exhaust wise.

the bike is pulling much much harder throughout the whole rev range now, thugh i still have a bit of a flat spot (not that bad) at 6500rpms. I will go through the same process as the 4500rpm flat spot and smoothen that area out as well.

I also reinstalled my RB02 emulator. the RB software allows you to regulate the voltage output (much like the $80 fatduc O2 modulator) It varies somethin like .100V to .400V or something like that (not hooked up to the comp so i cant access that data right now)

Im not sure what to put it at. My stock value was .230Volts and i have it set at .190Volts figuring its better low than high.  Not sure if thats a  good thing or a bad thing? Any idea?

Also, no check engine light with the O2 sensor unplugged. since its an 06. Not sure why the other guy with an 06 has the light on. I have heard from everyone who i have spoke to who own 07's  the check engine light comes on for theirs, and the 06 guys says it doesnt.  ??? might of been a factory ECU mixup.

Also it turns out the memory issue was just me being incompetent at reading english. the instructions say something like

"for pernament use, use all flash memory" or something like that. It even had a diagram! [laugh]

I need to learn italian!
Other updates of today
Heat grips work flawlessly! High is extremely hot!
My horn died today due to my use of non weather proof wiring, i need to get some heat shrink! It was evident when a car tried to side swipe and i reached for the horn. no horn = AHHH! felt naked out there.
Also my right light *monster part duals* went out. need to get a new bulb. I have 1 year warranty with the HID guy i bought it from and sent it out today....seriously tryiing to keep my monster running really puts a drain on you!

That's really interesting because that was one major point of contention between distributors who says RB3 doesn't work and ones who says it works fine.  Would you keep use posted on your experience with Foster?  That is another point of contention on availability of his support. Thx!



It shouldn't matter if the RB3 is doing what it is suppose to do which is intercept and modify the signal between the stock ECU and the spark plugs.

I see your point, but then why does the kit recommend the install of an RB02 emu(other than money)? The RBo2 emu has no connection to the RB unit what soever. It just plugs inline with the stock O2 sensor.

HOWEVER, the RB3 software (when connected to the RB unit) detetchs the RB02 emu and you can tweak the RB02 emu. You get what im trying ot say? (cause i dont really think i even understand myself at this point lol)

So, to sum it up. What the hell is the point of the RB02 emu if all the RB3 does, is modify the fuel signals like a PCIII? Ive tried running with it and without it, there is no difference. Ive tried running without the o2 completely and with the O2 plugged, there is a difference. though i have not ridden the bike with either settings long enough to justify myself. It may just be all in the old noggin.

The RBO2 emulator is suppose to do 2 things (one of which does not apply to you):
(1) Lock the stock ECU into a fake open mode by feeding it a constant, but oscillating signal
(2) Prevent the check engine light from coming on if&when the stock O2 sensor is disconnected.

Without the O2 locking the stock ECU in the "closed" loop part, the ECU will kepp fighting and overwriting the RB3 and defaulting to the stock map with or without the RB3.  This is what happens with PCIII and why the temporary fix from RB Italy (when they discovered the problem with the '07 O2 emulator) was to zero out the values in the low end of the map...just like PCIII now recommends on their website.

Good luck!  I'm NYC too so if you want to meet up and bang heads together...let me know.

banging heads hurt though.... ??? ;D

Well i rode today, and i dont know wtf was going on. I warmed the negine up to 200F and the damn flat spot came back!!! it is only evident in the 20% +TPS range.


I am wondering if the bike lost its map again? I emailed RBUSA about the situation and i haven't gotten a msg back from him. I will try calling him up tomorrow or swinging by there tomorrow morning. I think i might just remove the unit until i get my exhaust system. The download is so silky smooth. :/ i dont wanna take it of! but the flat spot is in the range i use the bike the most.

We should defintely meet up, if i can figure out whats wrong with the RB unit (if its the issue of a map) maybe youd like to try it on your system see if it works. you have an S4Rs right?

Im not gonna get home till 1030 tonight so i wont be able to check the map till then. I really hope its not a memory lost. If it is, its comming of tonight and im gonna go to RBUSA tomorrow.

1AM update!  [roll]

Bike did not loose its map. When i tested it, the bike was only marginally warm. 150F to 180F (48degrees outside) so it was quite cold.
 Ran the bike pretty hard in the 200F range over the manahttan bridge. insane amount of flat spots. about 3-4 of them at the same 4400rpm range at 50%+ TPS.

So what am i suspecting now? the Timing map. I loaded up a Multinoodle map DS1000, with a very generous amount of fuel in the range where i have issues with no timing map at all. Its too late to test the bike and its too cold to run it hard. so it will have to wait until tomorrow. as it stands. the fuel max is 24points, where my previous map was ~15 points. The max allowed is 30points.
 
I checked out the other maps and i find it intresting how they come up with half of them. the 695 map for a stock bike where max fuel points are 5, and low is a -2. lol it actually takes away fuel!

on a 1098 Race map, the map is so up and down, at one point its +5, then its -4, then its +10, then -8. How the hell do those bikes run like that?

yet another frustrating update.

RB3 SUCKS. That hiccup is still there. Im begining to think its the unit.

Last test, im gonna zero all the maps so the RB3 does nothing. if it still the same, im gonna try to get a new one. I have not been able to get a response from RBUSA.....

He Man, give Nick at Rockwell a call is you cannot reach RBUSA.  He fixed up another DMFer's S4R with RB3.

Im gonna go to RBUSA first, the dude who sold it to me said he is hard to get a hold of sometimes, and he'll try for me first. Hes also digging up the receipt for it, so i can use it in case i need to warranty the thing. I loaded up the zero map and will try it tomorrow morning (6am open traffic woohoo!!) Im really pissed of. I havent gunned my bike in over a week now (im also seeing 40mpg city where i usually see 33mpg LOL this is a fuel saving device!) its driving me nuts. If the zero map STILL has the flat spot, im gonna try for a replacement. if its just my bike then ill hold on to it until i can dyno tune it.

im gonna try steve and jay at ECS before i try rockwell, after the way they treated me when i got my forks done, all my needs go to them first.

I feel sorry for you, but why you didn't read my posts before buying RB? I wrote about all the problems with modules losing memory and support/warranty from Dimsport (I don't even want to talk about foster, they are out of business in my opinion...technoresearch in same boat, but at least they ran away from RB and cleaning his inventory).
BTW you don't need RBO2 for '06 and you can try to reload the project (if you have pro software)...that's what worked in few bikes. For ex I have my race gsxr750 and I cannot keep maps longer then one deals gap ride (I have also switch maps and I end up with some weird maps, anyway nothing close to what I loaded).
I'll update my thread about "the end of RB in US"...

Heres the update: Called them up spoke to Lenny Pedersen, he said i should send the RB unit (the queens shop is closed) to him and have the firmware updated and replace the O2 Modulator.


the unit does have some memory issues at the begining, but i havent had any issues with it losing maps just yet.....but its still a concern.

Im off to school and tryinig the "zero" map to see if i still have a flat spot.

Ok rb unit is comming of when I get home. this thing sucks. If foster can't get this thing to run right I'm gonna light this pregnant dog on fire. I'm at a spilt in the road again. If foster group can't fix it, ill vouch for moto4us, rb is dead.

But I'm gonna give them the benefit of the doubt an see what happens

Hey all,

I've posted some lengthy posts here and OTB regarding my experience with RB so I won't rehash them now, but to sum up, I've decided to go in another direction.  I think the module does offer a lot, and the potential is great, but I haven't found a tuner willing to work with me to get it dialed in.  It runs better, it runs stronger, but there are a few spots in the powerband that aren't quite perfect.  Soooo....I've given up and am getting a DP ECU installed next week.  Big bucks I know, and I was hoping to avoid it, but I really want a perfectly-fueled bike.  I'll post up when the ECU gets installed, and let you know the results.  As for Al and Moto4Us, I still can't say enough good things about him and his efforts to make RB3 a success here in the States.  Sometimes these things work out and sometimes they don't.....

is it because there is no dealer that works with RB units or is it because no one can get the thing to work right?

it's because no dealer w/dyno in my area wants to work with it.  Hopefully you'll have better luck.

hopefully.... i wonder how much a dyno tune is at the shop im gonna be doing it at...

I took of the RB3 unit last night and took it out for a spin today an i FINNALY got a chance to do a wheelie!!!! no more 4k flat spot! lol back to stock. However, i will say this,

though the RB3 unit sucked, and had a flat spot even with a zero map, it made my bike so freaking smooth. When i first installed it, i didnt notice it much, but after riding it for a week, and then taking it off, i suddenly forgot how well my carbie 900 rode, this S2R1k SUCKS. Its  everywhere and no where at all.

Al. Its John from Canada. I have only put on 1800 miles since U sent the my RB3 back with new programming. It hasnt skipped a beat.
This is on my 07 S4RS with Termi Shortie (Catalytic converter removed)
My problem was anything above 6000 Rpm. Sometimes it felt like someone was flicking the engine kill switch on/off. Or Rev limiter (as HeMan said)
I never did noticed a HUGE gain in power, but it does pull steady, even at lower RPM. I never took it to a Dealership to get fine tuned either. Termi Shorties probably arnt the best pipe for power gains.

As for Rapid Bike. I dont think it will make it in the US/ North America without the support of Tuners like Al. Just my Opinion.

Now, what do U guys know about the making the best potential power on a stock 1098 ? :-)
I see that here are so many more options available in the last few months. DP ECU's are coming down in price. There's a company called   " Hypertrick " that will take your OEM ECU & program a Map for slip/on or full exhaust http://www.hypertrick.net/en/
The Nemisis prgrammer, FatDuc O2 Manipulator, PCIII. Whats the best " Bang for the Buck " with out the hassle of having to make the beast with two backs around with the tuning all the time?

I spoke to Foster today. RB unit is being shipped back to me, should get it tomorrow according to FedEx.

Apparently the previous tuner that touched it used the wrong version of RB manager to program it and it couldn't communicate with the RBO2. Hopefully I'll get it up and running without the mentioned issues. How often was the 6000rpm + problem? I had the same issues from 4000+ and it was consistent each and every time (20%+ throttle)

either way, I wont be back on the bike for another 2-3 weeks. Went down today and banged up my bike and my leg. :(

Hey Man He Man, sorry to hear that. That sucks. I hope it wasnt too serious ?

It was never consistant. I'd say 50% of the time. It seemed like it would by-pass the hesitation - if I rolled it on slowly.

 "Al " also said the RB3 was not communicating until he reprogrammed it with new software

it wasnt to bad. I have to go scrap my skin of the exahust pipe. Went to class today and my sock was soaked in blood since i walked up 4 flights of stairs. No more walking until it scabs over. Got me right on the ankle. Should of worn my boots. It was one of those days where i just didnt realize i wasnt wearing boots and just hopped on the bike.  [bang]

Anyway, i had the exact same issue, if i rolled on the throttle slowly then it wouldnt be there, but if i wacked it past 20% throttle then the bike would hit the flat spot. I dont know why this problem exists. I know its not a fueling issue because i ran a 0 advance and fuel map. Fedex.com said its shipped so i cant wait to get home today and toy with it.

Wow, I haven't checked this thread in a while and it seems like I've missed a few things.

First off I would like to wis HeMan a speedy recovery. Crashing sucks, sorry to hear you went down.

The second thing I would like to say is........



I TOLD YOU SO!!!!!!!!!


But somehow those words just aren't any fun when you guys are still having problems. I knew I had a bad feeling about RB back on TOB. And there was that one guy (I forget his name) who kept mentioning it in EVERY thread that even remotely had anything to do with fueling. Where is he now I wonder?  [roll]

Oh well, good luck getting the thing to work.

If you don't have any luck, you could always just buy my bike. At least it's running right now that it has the DP cams and ECU.

knowpain?

I still havent installed it. If anything ill pass it on to the next hopeful person.

 Yeah! That was him. What a dick. I sent him a nice polite email asking him to refrain from posting in the threads where we were trying to find a solution and he sent me back a rude email. Something about some guy asking him to stop make the beast with two backsing his girlfriend and he told him the same thing he told me.....Go make the beast with two backs myself. There was more but that was the gist of it. What a douch bag. I'm glad we haven't seen him here yet.

 Or have we and I just missed it?

I haven't seen him. Last i remember he sold his bike.

Thats a really make the beast with two backsing werid story. lol "yea i was make the beast with two backsing some dudes chick and he was like please dont do that anymore and i said go make the beast with two backs himself"  ???

He was the one who said all the hot stuff about how his bike is much better then everyone elses cause of RB3 and how his bike developed 95+hp/tq or something like that. When the graphs came it, it was just a mommentary spike that induced a peak.  [roll]

I'm trying to follow the thread but being very UNknowledgeable in mechanics I keep getting more confused.
Essentially I'm thinking of changing  to the QD Ex-Box system. This one http://www.motowheels.com/italian/myproducts.cfm?parentcategoryid=660|Ducati%20Exhaust&productID=4688&showDetail=1&categoryID=671|Monster%20Exhaust&vendoridtodisplay=0&filterFor=&collection=168|European%20Motorcycle%20Parts
I have an 06 S2R and it seems a closed loop system.  What I have are the Termis and PC III, already tuned.  Can I make this exhaust change and not fiddle with the ECU?  If not, can you help tell me what options I have?
Thanks

if you have a PCIII working, you can just fiddle with the PCIII when you install the exbox.

You cant ever say that a map will work for a certain setup until you do it. It may run great, it may not. Either way, if you have  PCIII working with out issues, you should be able to get a dyno tune if your termi map doesnt run right with the exbox.

it's definately working with no hiccups, backfires and the power band has increased.  I just hate to spend the money to find out it doesn't work and sell at a huge discount.  Have others tried this setup?
Thanks again.

You didn't say if the bike is an 800 0r 1000.  If the bike is an 800 it is not closed loop.  If it is a 1000, it is closed loop, or, at least it was when it came out of the factory.  Since it has been modified we need to know what was done.  I would suggest contacting the previous owner or the shop that did the work.  Either way, you are changing from low restriction exhaust to low restriction exhaust, there shouldn't be a problem.  If there is a problem and the bike is open loop, a remap of the PCIII will compensate.  If the bike is closed loop and you have a problem, go open loop and remap. 

Muskrat,
The Quad-D ExBox is one of the few (only?) exhaust system that seems to work real well with Monsters.  I have in on my S4RS and did not need to fiddle with the ECU (assuming you kept the airbox closed).  My strong guess if the ExBox will be fine with your bike regardless of (1) Stock ECU w/ closed airbox or (2) DPECU W/ PCIII W/ opened airbox).  Lastly, since you already have the PCIII tuned to the Termi's, you may want to invest the ~$250 in remapping the PCIII to the ExBox for optimal performance.

update on RB3- its in a ziplock bag back from Foster Group.

Went down on the bike and i cant walk around a garage to risk reinfecting my wound since its so dirty in there, so no joy until next week. From what Mr.Foster said, the unit was badly programmed from being in too many hands and they are trying to weed out some of the tuners (their words). So it was formated reprogrammed with updated firmware and new maps loaded.

Does that include yours (hands that is)  ;D

i wish, that would mean i have access to the Rapid Bike Pro Manager software. :(

Thanks.  Do you by any chance have a sound clip and/or pictures I could see?  The motowheels website doesn't do it justice in my opinion, or so I'm told.
You can reach me at daxrizo@tx.rr.com

Thanks again.

PMed to /threadjack.

Nemesis updated!  Product shipping for Monsters!

Competition Systems' Nemesis - Aftermarket replacement ECU for the 749/999/1098/S4RS/Hypermotard. Allows you to switch instrument cluster and adjust just about everything the ECU controls. Here's the pdf http://www.mmcompsys.com/download_zone/4_fuel_parts/Nemesis%202%20installation%20notes_01.pdf
http://www.mmcompsys.com/motorsportsengine.html (http://www.mmcompsys.com/motorsportsengine.html)

i may have missed it, but you still havent said if its the s2r800 or the 1000...
anyhow, heres a pic for yah [thumbsup]

(http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm285/s2r1000/cliponsrightsideview.jpg?t=1227293966)

Power Commander + FatDuc + S4RT

Power Commander does not allow adjustments below a certain RPM and throttle opening because of the closed loop EFI.

FatDuc supplies a constant signal to the ECU overriding the closed loop function of the EFI system.

Therefore the Power Commander can now be used to adjust the closed loop part of the EFI as the FatDuc is supplying a constant signal to the ECU.

Is my thinking correct?

If not, I am ordering a Nemesis 2 tomorrow and I have a brand new never taken out of the box Power Commander for sale.

Yes, that set-up should work in theory.  You will be able to dyno tune the open-loop end via PCIII.  The FatDuc should give you a rough adjustment for the close-loop portion.  If you go down this route, let us know how it works out.  Of course if you go the Nemesis route, we would be keen to learn how that works as well!

the PCIII for S4RT is completely RPM Dependent right?

Someone correct me if im wrong but the O2 sensor is capped at a certain RPM, but it is TPS dependent. aka if you are at 1300rpm and WOT it, it automatically goes to open loop.

So you might have difficulty building a smooth map if your running ECU map until your engine hits a certain RPM before the PCIII can take over.

The PCIII reads both RPM and TPS.  It may not be silky smooth or dialed in like a laser, but far cheaper than a completely new ECU + programming time.

I ment the zone in which the PCIII works in is solely based on RPMs not TPS.

Aka, you could be at 1% or 100%, as long as you are over 5000rpm the PCIII will be available.(5000rpm is an arbitrary number)
 However if the O2 Sensor goes straight to open loop mode at 100%TPS but you are still at 3,000RPM you'll be stuck with the Monster ECU map until you hit 5,000RPM. which if you aren't spending all day at the upper RPM range, it might just be bothersome since the bike doesn't transition well into that zone.

UPDATE:

Monster mash! REFLASHING OF ECU!

http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=15502.0 (http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=15502.0)

From reading the information on the Power Commander website my understanding is that the only reason that the PC cannot adjust the closed loop section is that the standard ECU will always adjust the air/fuel mixture back to its pre-set value so cancelling any adjustments made by the PC.

However with the FatDuc supplying a constant reading to the ECU, this would then allow the PC to make adjustments to this closed loop section without the ECU reverting to its pre-set values. I my understanding that the PC allows you to make adjustments to this closed loop section, as when you fit a DP ECU you can adjust the complete rev range.

Got busy at work today and forgot to order the Nemesis, gives me one more day to contemplate.

New produce added to 1st post:

Reflashing stock ECU to DP ECU - Monstermash offering reflashing of all Ducati stock ECU's to DP ECU specs. It includes immobilizer disable, O2 sensor disable, raises the rev limit (at customer's request) and optimizing of the fuel/ignition map including a one time custom tune to your specific bike. After the ECU has been installed and the T.P. and the C.O. have been set, have the bike dynoed and send the ECU back with a copy of the dyno sheet and we'll reprogram it to match your exhaust and any other mods you have made to the bike for just the cost of the return shipping!  The cost of the reflash is $550.00 and includes return shipping. 'Mash have successfully beta tested it on his bike. Looking for more  rider experience/feedback.
http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=15502.0 (http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=15502.0)

I submitted an inquiry to Dynojet asking them to confirm how their PCIII for the S4RT/s works and got this from their top tech support man, Dustin Schaller:

"The stock ECU only controls the fuel curve in the closed loop area which is 19% and under and 5250rpm and under.  Above these parameters the PCIII is able to adjust your fuel curve without the ECU interfering.  Both of these thresholds need to be met before it goes out of closed loop."

A follow-up inquiry seeking permission to post that here drew this response:

"You can post this info if you like.

"The bike will run at the stock 14.7:1 in the closed loop area which will give you good fuel economy but not the best performance.  If you should have any running issues in the closed loop area you will not be able to make any adjustments with the PCIII unless you have the DP ECU or we find a way around the O2 sensor.  Also don’t believe others that state they have a product that bypasses the O2 area.  We have tested them all and they don’t work!"

Now, I'm not sure that last comment was intended to apply to the FatDuc device as this came in a few weeks ago when I think that was pretty fresh on the scene.

I've emphasised a couple of bits I found of particular interest.

I've still got an interest in maybe running the PCIII with stock ECU as I need the best fuel range I can get, and don't run much around town. Not sure how the closed-open loop transition would affect throttle response with the PCIII but after all the stock bike has such a transition, and I imagine the PCIII could be tuned to make this as smooth as desired. Dynojet's website offers a map for the stock bike.

This DOES apply to Fat Duc O2 Manipulators.  Dynojet was sent one by a well known tuner with hopes that it would eliminate the sensor.  O2 Manipulators do not eliminate the O2 sensor or supply a constant signal to the ECU.  They're installed inline with the factory O2 sensor and alter the signal to make the ECU believe the bike is running leaner than it actually is.  It still allows the O2 sensor to oscillate between rich and lean, but the overall mixture is richer than the stock closed map.  O2 Manipulators work, but you will not be able to add a PCIII or other device and fine tune the closed loop portion of the map (only open).

Jason Borders
Performance Boulevard, LLC
www.fatduc.com (http://www.fatduc.com)

Thanks for clearing that up. Have ordered a Nemesis, hope to have it in about a week. [thumbsup]

LHL,
Pls keep us posted on the nemesis!!!  Thx.

I ordered one yesterday. Now I just have to wait for it to arrive. Also waiting for better weather (snow outside). :'(

Will be back with update when I can. The sad thing is that spring is far away, so maybe a dynochart in a month, but riding it will have to wait at least 3 months.

updates?

One week has a different meaning to some. [bang]

Called them Thursday - no answer, called Friday - no answer. Called today, sorry we were very busy last week, has not come in as yet, should be here tomorrow. It's going to be hard to find someone to tune it over the Christmas/New year period though! :(

still no nemesis for 06 s2r1000? am I reading this right?

Got my Nemesis installed today, preliminary  numbers says: before 107hp now 130hp ;D ;D ;D

Wow! You serious! :o

Me serious? Yes !

Ill be back with more info when I have it. My "dyno man" called me to today for a quick uppdate; he was almost as happy as me.  ;D


BTW This should be posted somewhere else. This is not a "Closed loop ECU mod" its a "Closed loop ECU elimination".

Anyone try Monstermash's ECU reflash yet?  I havent seen any feedback and I am looking to do this for my 08 S2R1k.

Has anybody seen this? Does it work? Is it safe? I'm just looking for something to run an after market pipe with and not run too lean.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=120365487936&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=002 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=120365487936&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=002)

Should work, but I have not see any feedback on that product.  FatDuc produce operates on similar principal by tricking the O2 exhaust sensor.  That product have been tested by a couple of DMF'er to their satisfaction.

The :+15~35 hp" is likely puffery unless your bike is badly, badly tuned from the factory. 

Thanks Cdawg! Does anyone have any insight as to what is the better way of manipulating the ECU? Modify the O2 sensor output, or modify the intake temp output?

Fat Duc [thumbsup] 

Started a new thread about my Nemesis:
http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=18082.0 (http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=18082.0)

So no more Closed Loop for me  ;D [moto]

Doh! Just got an email from Fat Duc saying they have been having problems with the 696's so it's a no go. Got an email from the guy in Hungary about the Magnum Performance chip and the broken english left me with as many questions as I had before.

ok, didn't realize this was the thread for ECU/fueling mods.

for the 696. i checked around. found the following systems
two brothers juice box. fits into the fuel injector system doesnt mod the ecu or trick o2 sensors
dobreck powercard. makers of their own system and the two brothers. (designed by the guy who made the first powercommander)
GPR extreme. another fuel injector system mod.
Dynojet PC V does all sorts of things to the system and way versatile but very complicated
i also check on that ebay o2 trick thing. seems like it makes the computer read cold engine readings so it pumps more fuel, and to avoid the o2 from fixing the mix, it intercepts the o2 signal.

from my money i went with the two brothers. altough a rebadged dobreck it does add some interface simplicity.

that's all i found for the 696 below $500

so i'm sitting here reading this and wondering.
if the juice box adds fuel but doesnt modify the o2 signal, why wouldn't the ecu just readjust the fuel mixture to compensate for the rich conditions that the juice box creates? damn gotta call two brothers now.

Raux,
It should and does...that's why folks are using the FatDuc on the low closed loop portion of the map.

Need some big brain help on the new DynoJet product: PowerCommander V

Question: Is the analog input portion essuntially a built-in FatDuc?

http://www.powercommander.com/powercommander_iii_usb/powercommander_v_information.aspx (http://www.powercommander.com/powercommander_iii_usb/powercommander_v_information.aspx)
NEW Power Commander V Basic Features List
Reduced size from PCIIIusb (less than half of the size of PCIII)
USB powered from computer (9 volt adapter is no longer needed for programming)
2 position map switching function built in (map switch not included)
Gear/Speed input (allows for map adjustment based on gear and speed)
Analog input (allows user to install any 0-5 volt sensor and build an adjustment table based on its input such as boost or temperature)
With gear position input connected the PCV is capable of allowing each cylinder to be mapped individually and for each gear (for example: on a 4 cylinder bike with a six speed transmission there could be up to 24 separate fuel tables).
Unit has a -100/+250% fuel change range (up from -100/+100%). This allows more adjustment range for 8 injector sportbikes
10 throttle position columns (up from 9 on PCIIIusb)
Enhanced “accel pump” utility (increased adjustment and sensitivity ranges)

to my understanding, the O2 sensor is just one type of the 0-5v sensors on your bike. The pressure/temp sensor near your guages is another one. this would be able to work with both them i guess?

the autotune feature is pretty cool. I remember trying to tune my friends buell, you could plug  bike into your laptop, throw it on your back and go for a ride. the program would collect all types of data such as A/F at various rpms and speeds, and take into account your riding style, and you could build a map based on the A/F. thought it was still tps/rpm related.

this looks like it just plugs into your o2 bung and builds a map based on the target afr for a given load automatically. neato! this would simplify street tuning. but i bet the thing cost $200 or something.

ok long and short. apparently the Two Brothers Juice box does intercept the O2 signal as well as pump extra fuel. but i haven't confirmed that with Two Brothers yet.

UPDATED:
FatDuc O2 Manipulator - Aftermarket plug-n-play that sits between the O2 sensor and the ECU.  It has a dial that allows the user to modify the reading that the O2 sensor is sending back to the ECU.  This causes the ECU to think it is running lean thereby adding more fuel. The effect should only be felt during the closed loop part of the ECU map.  Most people seems to be happy with the results; haven't heard any negative stories yet.  http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=16051.0 (http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=16051.0)
The cost is only $80.
http://www.fatduc.com/ (http://www.fatduc.com/)

UPDATED - added new product:
ProTune ECU Remap Kit - Allows reprograming of the Magneti Marelli 5AM and previous 59M units, which are used on all post 1987 Ducati models with 9 stages of tuning available (including reverting to OEM map).  Product introduced March'09...need user input!
http://www.motowheels.com (http://www.motowheels.com/italian/myproducts.cfm?parentcategoryid=1054|Monster%20Engine&productID=6854&showDetail=1&categoryID=1079|Monster%20Engine%20Fuel%20%26%20Air&vendoridtodisplay=0&filterFor=&collection=168|European%20Motorcycle%20Parts)

OK, so is anyone running a FatDuc O2 Manipulator to take charge in the closed loop system, and a PCIII to cover the Open Loop portion on an  '07 S2R1000? If so, what PC map are you using?

I ordered both and am going to see how it works.  Seems like it'd be worth it (cost wise, if it works) if you're not on the track... I'm not going to jump into a $1,500 ECU anytime soon, so it's this or nothing.  I don't feel like pulling and sending out the ECU for reflash either.  I've got miles of tarmac to cover.  ;-)


Mike

I dont get why people complain about a few days lost riding from sending their ECU out, its not like its going to take weeks for it to get back to you...

anyway the o2 manipulator doenst "take charge" of the closed loop system, it just takes every value of the O2 sensor and maniupluates it to a higher or lower value and the ECU will adjust accordingly. So it wouldn't make sense for you to install a PCIII since the bike is still running off data from the O2 sensor. So you just wasted you're money. Ontop of which, the PCIII is kind of funky to work with on a S2R1000. You can unplug the O2 sensor completely, but on the 07's it will most likely trigger the engine light switch. From there you can install the PCIII and see if it works.

Well, I got both the FatDuc O2 manipulor and the PCIII today.

I don't see why they shouldn't work together.  One will enrichen the mix in the closed loop, one will enrichen the mix in open loop... and both are adjustable.

Anyway, I put the FatDuc on first, and loved it immediately.  From start and idle, to cruising around, you can tell it works, and it works well.  No more backfires, dying while cold, et al.

The PCIII was more or less a straight forward install, and feels like it has a smoother, stronger pull from mid-range to up-high.

I base this on nothing.

Don't ask me for a dyno.

That is correct.  It has been hypothesized that the FatDuc and PCIII would work well together.

Just to be clear. I read the web page. If I remap with say stage 2, then i pull out my db killers and want to switch to stage 4.

1. I have to send the ProTune kit back to you to get it reset?
2. Is there a charge for this?

The text reads:

Once a remap module has been down loaded onto an ECU unit, data can only be transferred from this particular ECU unit.

This part seems to imply that the ProTune gets locked to a particular ECU which is understandable if you want to sell more than one

If a user requires a map upgrade because he has subsequently changed the tuning state on his motorcycle, this can also be done by sending us the re-loader for a new map.

This part implies that it is a one shot deal, once re-maped you can only go back to stock without sending the unit back to you

You have to contact MotoWheels.  I am not affiliated with any of the products on the first post.  I just aggregate it.

I installed a FatDuc on a Multistrada 1100S a couple days ago and did a before/after dyno run.  Gained about 2-3HP but more importantly the bike rode a lot better.  I wouldn't say that its perfect since obviously your not building custom maps but it did smooth the bike out a lot, cleared out the low throttle stumble the bike had before.  The difference on the street was very noticeable.  Easily the best bang for your buck option.  Had about the same experience with one on an 1198 a week or two ago but we didn't get to do the dyno comparison. 

The Protune comes with a DP map loaded on it. If you change your bike down the road, you can send just the Protune kit over to us for us to load another map. There will be a slight charge for this service. The charge has not been determined yet but it will be less than the cost of the hardware and software required to do it yourself.

There is plans to make it a complete do-it-yourself re-load but they have some technical and licensing details to work out still. So far it has not been an issue. The maps are very good. So far no-one has had a need to get another map.

-M

Martin,
PM sent.

I am based in Singapore-Malaysia and have a Zard full system exhaust & K&N high flow filter on my 07 Monster S4RS.  As is, with the stock ECU, my bike is very 'snatchy' in the lower RPMs/speed, but fine in the higher RPM/speed.  I bought the Nemesis 2 ECU from Brian Sharp @ Boulder Motorsports, CO, & it came with a map for my bike.  Mechanic installed it on my bike but it was way too rich that it burnt a spark plug shortly - idling really high @ 1.8-2K rpm.

Am sure its a great product BUT (here's the really important part for the rest of us who reside in this part of the world and NOT the U.S. or Europe), there was just no tuner in my neck of the woods knowledgeable about the Nemesis and, therefore, it couldn't be tuned to run in our local conditions. I contacted Mick Boasman of Competition Systems Ltd UK and he said:

"This is not unheard of, it seems your fuel over there has a significantly lower specific gravity which means that for one injection opening more fuel flows through it. So any maps made over here or in the USA run pretty rich for you guys, which is why your bike fouled a plug over the first days running.  We do not have any 'off the shelf' maps designed to run on your fuel but it should be a simple matter of reducing the injection time  globally which can be done in the software, keep dropping a few percent until you get it right, and remember to do both cylinders."

When I wrote back for more specific help as the tuners in Singapore and Malaysia are more product-specific (Dynojet PCIII or for Ducatis, mainly DP+Termignonis), Mick replied, "Unless you can find somebody local who can make these changes and understand how to it from the manual then you are in trouble...The manual is intended for instructing an engine tuner how to use the software, it is not intended to teach them how to do it. We presume that any tuner who wishes to use Nemesis already has engine tuning experience so simply has to adapt to some new software. We do not teach users how to tune engines."

So thats it, I have learnt lesson, possess a virgin Nemesis ECU to sell and now still need an alternate solution.  I'm fine with the higher RPM but need something to smooth out the lower range.  Any advice would be greatly appreciated - how about the FatDuc O2 Manipulator?

According to all reports, the FatDuc would address your low RPM surging and throttle response issues, and at $80, how could you go wrong trying it?

solstice0000,
2 advices:
1) if you go the FatDuc route you will likely also need to purchase the PCIII.  I'm assuming you opened up the airbox with the Zards.  If you didn't then you might not need the PCIII
2) you should reach out to Fred at Silverback Performance who is one of the gurus on the Nemisis for the 1098.  I don't buy the response, it reads like the idle trim/stepper motor is not set properly.  Heck, the 1098 map may a good place for your tuner to start since there is a chance your tuner will only have to fiddle with the A/F map and all else is already tested by Silverback.

my 2 cents...

First post edited:

FatDuc:
May occasionally cause the check engine light to come on when you first start the bike.  FatDuc is aware of the issue.  This is caused by the idle being set too rich and over idling (30~40 minutes) resulting in carbon build up in the O2 probe.  Proposed cure includes not idling too long or WOT it once in a while to clean the probe.

has anyone actually had no issues with the pcIII and the fat duc combined? in my head it sounds like the fuel map that transitions from the open to closed loop might be harsh and cause the bike to not settle well.

regarding the nemsis software, it might be a good idea to learn how to use the software by tinkering with it, i think youll come out on top.

For what its worth, it won't be any harsher from using the PCIII alone if it's mapped properly.  Now as to whether PCIII has truly found the close/open loop point...I don't know.  BAsed on their literature, what happens tothe stock ECU if you are at 5500 RPM and only 9% TPS?  is the open loop or closed loop???

Post here on another forum from Ducati Seattle showing their dyno curve from running two FatDucs and a PCIII to tune an 1198 on the stock chip.

http://www.ducati.ms/forums/showthread.php?t=64399&highlight=Akrapovic+1198&page=2 (http://www.ducati.ms/forums/showthread.php?t=64399&highlight=Akrapovic+1198&page=2)

I imagine they used the two FatDucs because the bike has (IIRC) two 02 sensors, one for each cylinder.

Relevant post is about number 10 on this page.

Follow-up post on next page has full details of set-up:


Curves look pretty nice.

They make the point that another 1198 they are tuning that has a DP ECU and full Akra system (Rob's bike, in quote above) made no more power.

CDawg, Dynojet in reply to my query said the stock (S4Rs) ECU remains in closed loop until you are over 5250rpm AND 19pc throttle. Hence, at 9pc you are in closed-loop whatever the revs, they claim.

Hey thanks for your advice - yotogi, CDawg and He Man! 

Yes, I did open up the air box to go with the high flow K&N filter and full system Zards.  After receiving your collective advice, I shall:

1.  Give it a go to:
(i) Reach out to Fred at Silverback - not sure if he would be able to help me as my issue stems from a difference in environment factors/conditions (eg. fuel gravity etc.) between the U.S. and Singapore/Malaysia.  I had asked Brian Sharp at Boulder Motorsports (who seems to have a good reputation and whom I bought the Nemesis from) but he wasn't particularly helpful post-sales, just brief replies to my emails.  I suppose he was busy racing and I'm not based in the U.S.
(ii) Tinker with the nemesis software (as He Man suggests).  I just thought I'd leave tuning to the experts but it appears that there are NO experts re the Nemesis in my neighbourhood.

2.  Failing which, I will go the FatDuc route (you are right, yotogi, it is after all only $80! Btw, is there a thread on how-to install & adjust the FatDuc?).  CDawg, is it an absolute must for me to install the PCIII once my airbox is opened?  It seems to run ok so far - though my rectifier did die on me yesterday on the city freeway (thankfully not while touring in the middle of nowhere).

Thanks again to all!

Its not that dificult to adjust the map yourself, or if you have a local tuner worth his name, he should be able to do that for you.

There may be a thread somewhere, it is so stupid easy to install, it hardly merits it though. Just unplug the O2 sensor at the harness (left side of bike, in front of vertical cylinder), plug the FatDuc into the O2 sensor side, and into the harness. Zip-tie up and go!

The more you open your intake and exhaust systems the more likely you are to need modifications to you fueling. When you open it up, you will definitely benefit more from the PC3. Your mix may be so far off as to really need to have it. With your modifications and even though you seem to be running ok, a properly mapped PC3 would only benefit you.

Agreed!  Also think of FatDuc as shift the entire closed loop fueling map up or down.  A PCIII (which allows you to change the shape of the map) is not absolutely necessary, but if were willing to spend the $$$ for Nemesis, then the PCIII is a bargain.

solstice0000,
Also, the Nemesis is dramatically more complicated than PCIII.  If you tinker, just realize that you have to fiddle with A/F map, ignition timing, idle, cold start map, etc...  It took Fred ~3 days to perfect it and that is in the hands of an expert.  It is essentially programming a new race computer.

Thanks again, guys - sadly, there apparently isn't a local tuner worth a dime in my neck of the woods.  So it looks like I know which is the route to definitely take now!  Any recommendations on the best place to get my hands on a PCIII for my 07 S4RS?

Coming back to you guys with a quick question on the FatDuc O2 manipulator: I mentioned to my local Ducati dealership mechanic that I was considering using the Fatduc and PCIII combination and he said that their experience with the Fatduc wasn't positive because it would only be a matter of time before the stock ECU would consistently analyse the air-fuel mixture and realise that it was running richer (cos of the Fatduc), and subsequently make adjustments to bring the ECU etc back to its original A/F setting.  As such, he recommended  the DP ECU that comes with the Termignoni slip-on or full system instead.

Does this make sense to you guys?  Thanks for your help and advice in advance.

Nope.  The modified signal from the O₂ would be the only way the computer could realize this.

+1.  Dealer trying to up sell you a $1200 product.

that makes no sense at all. I hate when dealers just say that stuff to make you buy things.

The o2 sensor sends a signal to the ECU but its intercepted by device. so the ecu compensates by adding a bit more fuel. sends that signal to the injectors, and the fatduc unit tries to maintain this mixture so the next sensor reading will tell the ECU, this is good. keep up the good work.

The ecu will only know its being fooled if it finds out about mr.fat duc and O2's secret relationship.

I would go back and put your dealer on the spot for this. If they don't understand how the bike works well enough to be able to answer questions like this correctly, they shouldn't get the privilege of your service money. If someone doesn't know something, they should just keep their trap shut.

Of course, your dealer could be spouting what they had been told, but it seems to me if they believed what they said, they really have a fundamental misunderstanding of how the most complicated part of your bike works.

Really appreciate all your insights and advice...thanks lots again!

Linked from another thread, but does give some interesting dyno numbers and analysis of the 1000DS engine in all it's mysterious glory.

http://www.bikeboy.org/sr21000.html (http://www.bikeboy.org/sr21000.html)

Maybe a derby, but didn't find anything when I looked.

I started one a few weeks back to try to colelct some info on where others are running theirs, not that many people have chimed in but may be helpful.

As for install - very simple as said above.  I zip tied mine to the fram so i can adjust it wasily while i am messing around with it.

Good luck.

im a new monster s4r owner. what if i just remove the stock double barrel exhaust only and run it with just the bulky think under the motor. do i need to remap/ecu/fatduck ?

Depends. You will have less restriction without the cans, so you will likely run leaner. Take 'em off and keep an eye on your temp as well has how your bike performs at lower RPM. If you are good with it, awesome, you won the Closed-Loop Lotto! If not, a FatDuc will help with the lean condition on the low end.

If you get into an even more open exhaust or intake, then you are probably going to start looking into ECU modification (PC, DP ECU, Nemesis) to get the most out of the bike with the modifications.

This is a great thread!!   [drink]

I'm a little late to the game on this & do not have any FHE with ducs on it, but.  When modifing car exhaust we used to use 555 timer & a variable resistor to trick to ecu into thinking post cat o2 sensors were installed & working corectly.
This may be the same way the Fatduc works, I have not looked into it closley.  By giving the timer a 1 volt power supply & tuning the frequency until the cylcing is what the computer is looking for you can trick it into thinking there is an o2 sensor installed & only reading a value of Lambda 1.  This prevented ECU intervention.

-=Disclosure=-

I am not a mechanic, I am not trained in anything directly applicable to electronics, mechanics or the like. All of this info is gleaned from reading about Ducs and working on my own 06 S2R1K.

-=End Disclosure=-

You are describing a O2 sensor replacement which would work as you describe. A manipulator like the FatDuc just modifies the signal being sent back to the ECU a fixed amount. In a sense, it works a lot like a fueler. Since most people installing the FatDuc need the adjustments that occur in closed-loop operation to run well, sending back a constant signal might not be what is needed to run smoothly.

Here is a thread describing a DIY solution to the issue where Monstermash (minor sponsor and ECU flasher) talks about his experience with the issue on his 07 S2R1K.

http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=11473.0 (http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=11473.0)

At minimum please read the FatDuc builder's post in the thread. I know he has a vested interest in pumping his product but based on my experience with it, I have no reason to doubt what he is saying.

http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=11473.msg202500#msg202500 (http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=11473.msg202500#msg202500)

And probably what I like most is that the builder has been helpful in a number of posts directly asking questions about the product but that he has remained passive not pushing his product nearly as hard as I do.  :)

I did not mean to sound as though I was bashing the product in any way.  I only used the referance because they seamed compairable.  I was just trying to mention a possible way to remove the O2 sensor from the bike to help with closed/open loop issues.  Sorry if I sounded like a horses arse  [beer]

You didn't sound anything of the like. But considering your response, I may have! We are, as they say, "All Good".  :)

Hi There,
I read in your ECU item that Ultimap U59 ECU's are a current replacement option for those wishing to tune their Ducati's.  I fitted a U59 to my brand new '06 749S & the U59 spat the dummy whilst riding thru a rain storm.  The owner of Ultimap, Duane, appears to have shut down his operation & gone AWOL.
Does anyone have current contact details for Dyane ?  The N.Z. agent has sent mine & 2 other defective ECU's to him & he's not replying to any inquiries & we can't get the ECU's returned.
Any help in tracking Duane down would be most appreciated.
Cheers, Desmodude !

Great thread! I am learning alot obout my bike reading this (and others)...your conversation is helping make me a more informed rider and helping me decide on my own modifications with my bike.
 [thumbsup]

I have a 2008 S2R 1000 and obviously been scratching my head for months about what to do with the bike once I finally get enough cash to get an aftermarket exhaust installed…

PCIII and the likes do not really do a good job on a closed loop bikes since, apparently, it can only change the shape of the map for when the bike is in the closed loop mode only. So even with the PCIII dyno-tuned the bike would still run kind of rough in the low range… Nemesis, DP ECU, etc are just too damn expensive for me, so is the Termignoni Slipons /ECU/Airbox kit…  

In my months-long research I just recently found this shop in Minnesota (SilverBack Performance http://www.silverbackperformance.net/fim.html (http://www.silverbackperformance.net/fim.html)) they do a complete Stock ECU flash with a carbon copy of a DP ECU file. Silverback uses hardware from Alientech which got into Magnetti-Marinelli ECU game in the recent years… AlienTech is fairly well known in automotive tuning world, so no problem there. the guys from Silverback, on the other hand, are also fairly well known for their Ducati tuning/performance work.

So... SilverBack can do the whole ECU read-write job on your Stock ECU for a mere USD$300... I live in Maryland so the whole thing will have to be done mail order, unfortunately. Once the stock ECU is flashed, they can further tune it on a dyno, but for obvious reasons I would have to just get my ECU flashed and that's it.

Has anyone heard of this process? Should be a no-brainer in my mind, but still would be nice to hear from someone who had it done, or just has an opinion about it...

On a quick side note, I am having Marving collector pipes installed next weekend along with the FatDuc, but I will keep the stock cans for the time being. Sometime off-season, I am looking to get my ECU flashed by Silverback and get a set Quat-D Magnum CF cans and a DP Open airbox installed. Later, once I get my new cans, airbox installed, and ECU flashed i may add a PCIII or a Dobeck, or something similar to get some more power out of the bike…

Cheers.

Eugene

Check with SilverBack performance in MN (http://www.silverbackperformance.net/ (http://www.silverbackperformance.net/)) I think you have to talk to Doug.. these guys are dealers for UltiMap. Even-though they are phasing the unit out, they will most likely be able to help you  [coffee]

Hope this helps

Not sure about this. It has been my working understanding that a PC3 cannot do anything to the closed loop map. Either way, the statement that a bike would run rough in the low range is correct.


MonsterMash (a sponsor of this very board!) also provides this service.

http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=15502.0 (http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=15502.0)

i need to go back to this MV dealer in Frankenstein and talk to him about this new system he has.
It is supposed to mount on the bike with a few extra sensors, you go for a ride and then come back. he inputs the information on the computer and it writes a new map for you.
If you make a change to the bike, you put the sensors on, go for a ride...
anyway, it was new at EICMA last year he said.

Sounds like a PCV (Power Commander 5) with the Autotune accessory.

http://www.powercommander.com/powercommander/Products/AutoTune/powercommander_autotune.aspx (http://www.powercommander.com/powercommander/Products/AutoTune/powercommander_autotune.aspx)

I, too, have an 08 S2R 1K, and would be very interested to find our more about what Silverback is doing with the ECUs (and Monstermash, as well.)  I'm presently running with cored cans and a Rapidbike 02 Emulator, which apparently does the same thing the FatDuc does (but cost $150 more!)

In any case, I'm not interested in dropping $2K on the Termis/DP ECU set up, so this re-flashing option is definitely of interest.  Can anyone else weigh in on their result from having tried this route?  Very happy with how my bike runs now, but definitely interested in improvement if it's available...

Topangster

Look at DesmoPorche

Just bought a Ducati Performance ECU flashed for my 2007 S2R 1K. 

Got it dialed in today - Bike runs perfectly with a full Arrow system.

$399.00 www.desmoporsche.com (http://)

Shipped right away.




V.

Are there any updates for the 696? Put the Xbox exhaust on the GF's and have been waiting for PC-V or FatDuc or anything to assist in cleaning it up.THKS

there are a few fuelers out there, but the PC V is not out as far as i know.

hmm...I have the xbox for the S4RS (stock airbox) and had not needed to use any ecu mod. 
Eastview, What issues are you experiencing?

This  is on GF's 696 and I removed the plug in second outlet. It seems to start a little hard when it is cool outside(always kept in garage) and feels like it wants more fuel down low. At the same time it doesn't like much choke or throttle  either. Don't get me wrong, I think it is fine just wanted to run it at its best.

After reading just about everything I could find, I decided to go with the Nemesis-2, Type 2 and boomtubes for my 2007 S4RS. I found a couple local dyno tuners that are interested in working with it. Now the waiting begins...

Please be sure to post your results!

I'd be keen to hear how it goes as I have a S4RS too.

I'll be sure to provide a update. What's everyones opinion on dyno testing stock, then after the mods? I'm curious to see the delta, but is it worth the time and money? Given that I am going to have the nemesis, boomtubes, and the corse airbox/filter, that is quite a few combinations to run on the dyno.

depending on the cost of the dyno run, I think it would be nice to see how big of an improvement your mods make

If you don't do a before dyno run you never know what you improved on. I think before & after are the only way to go.

Just checking to see how your bike is still running with the reflashed ECU.

Was the chip plug and play?  And, how hard was it to install?

Thanks for any info.

I think you at least should have one "before" dyno done. And then post both before and after dyno charts here  [popcorn][bacon].

My dyno run (which you may have seen before): http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=18082.0 (http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=18082.0)

ECUs are trivial to swap out. It isn't a chip, but rather a little plastic box with bug plug sockets.

Anyone have any detailed instructions or photos of replacing the ECU on a S4R?

I don't know of one, but I can take some pictures of pulling one from an S2R this weekend and post them.

It is really trivial though, there are 2 plugs and 2 M6 (?) screws and that is it. Buy a $5 PDF copy of your service manual from http://duc.nu (http://duc.nu). It will more than pay for itself the first time you need to look up something like this.

closed loop theory question...

basically the ecu is looking for a set value from the O2 sensor. why are the aftermarket addons NOT doing this or are they? apparently the two brothers juice box only plugs into the fuel injectors. ok this adds fuel but then the ecu's compensate due ot the rich condition and then overcorrect... wouldn't it be easier to intercept the signal tell the ecu it has the perfect signal and let the addon decide how much fuel... or is this what the dynojet autotune is doing?

my head hurts  [bang]

by the way they expect to be out this spring.

This was hella helpful as it covers open and closed loop as well as the adaptation table.

http://www.bikeboy.org/open_closed_loop_efi.html (http://www.bikeboy.org/open_closed_loop_efi.html)

You could emulate the lambda sensor sending a neutral reading, but my guess is that since the lambda is an on-off kind of thing (again read the link above) that wouldn't really work by itself. Instead what you can do is modify the signal (FatDuc) to make the bike richen or lean the mixture based on the modified lambda. I don't know how the autotune works, but my guess is that they are modifying an adaptation table like the stock ECU based on sensor readings. If you don't disable the stock ECU's closed loop operation, they will fight with one another continually counter adjusting each other.

In order to completely tune though, you still have to eliminate the lambda altogether and clear the adaptation table. DP ECU or DP flash will solve that. Considering how inexpensive the reflash option is right now, I am not sure how much more work we will see on the workaround front.

got an email from Dynojet, they are compensating for the new closed loop systems of the Siemens in their new systems with a new feature. NICE can't wait.

I hope they crack the nut, but I don't see how that's possible without an O2 emulator...RapidBike tried, but wasn't too successful.

Here's my feedback, have a 2005 M620 Dark with hi mount Termis and open top airbox.

Always was having issues with popping when "air was cold" or descelerating after a mid lenght trip.

Couldn't find a DP ECU for my Monster, even though the accesories catalog shows one with the exhaust kit...

PC3 for me was/is overkill, anything else, had to keep the bike moving, so after a talk with the pillow, put an order to Desmo Times and got my TFI controller; by mistake while installing, I "messed up", got online asked for Dobeck's help, got it, fix it, running great...at least up to where I've gotten it...brake and suspension issues have kept me sidelined for a while, but, it's simple install, and out of the box it worked marvels for my baby Monster....

That's good news, any idea when the new PC will be out ?

i was told before may

i spoke to ECS a local shop, they said that a PC3 ill work fine with the S2R1000.
i know some people here have done it, and i think the result is you loose your stepper more idle capability. havnet gotten to talk to them about it yet. but im wondering if theres any more knowledge here on it

Heard from CA-Cycleworks that the PC V for the 696 is out.

 I copied this from another board.


"I got the PC5 a couple of weeks ago for my 696. Dyno Jet also sends things they call Optimizers to install with it. What they do is cause the computer to think its running leaner than it is so it bumps up the fuel a tad to help with the lean pop from 5500 RPM's on down. Also in that RPM range it can not be mapped due to the new style computer (ECU) used in the new generation Monsters so the popping that is left seems to be what we have to deal with at this point. Now that I have ridden my bike a few times I'm going to have mine mapped again to see if my map has changed at all due to this new ECU being a learning type of computer. Doing this I can let my customers know in the future what can be expected from running the PC5 on their Monsters. "

Sounds like the FatDuc + PCIII.
Shame, since it seems like there is no way to break the closed loop with ECU replacement/flashing.

Can you tell me what board this was from, it sounds like the guy has a shop and is working on the PCV & 696 I would like to contact him to see if he's got it sorted out.
 Thanks

http://www.ducati.ms/forums/showthread.php?t=86736 (http://www.ducati.ms/forums/showthread.php?t=86736)
Doesn't really sound like a total fueling solution. I have to agree with CDawg.

What a drag, I'm new to Ducs but from what I read I thought the fat duc & PC3 allowed re-mapping on the bikes with out the seimens ecu. I thought this closed loop on the 696/1100 seimens was the only ecu that could not be re-mapped or allow a piggy back device like a PC, teka or Bazzaz to re-map the fueling. Any of you guys out there with something other than a 696/1100 should check out the Bazzaz stuff the guy has started work on Ducs & he makes some trick stuff.

i dont really consider the fatduc a tuning device though it will defintely help downlow.

What's your airbox set-up, mate?


Cheers

EDITED on first post:

Reflashing stock ECU to DP ECU - Several services offering reflashing of all Ducati stock ECU's to DP ECU specs including, but not limited to Monstermash, Desmo Porsche, etc... It includes immobilizer disable, O2 sensor disable and raises the rev limit (at customer's request). The cost of the reflash is approximately $450.00. Some ongoing happenings in this thread:
http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=34252.0 (http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=34252.0)

an update for Siemens' bikes

Desmoworks can reflash the ECUs and take out the 02 loop making PC V that much more effective.

there are some deals on pc v if you search.

RE: Desmo P flashed ECU.


I had Rob's Dyno run the bike at the last Bomo day.

I have a full Arrow with a Desmo Porsche DP ECU.

Just over 20k hard miles and its an 2007.

Results:

Max Power- 88.26
Max Torque- 66.92

It id tuned almost perfect. He said maybe, maybe thin it out a tad, but otherwise do nothing....


V.

Let me apologize if I'm being dense and if this is posted somewhere in this thread. I have an 06 S2R1k, which I have installed a full exhaust, removed the O2 sensor, installed a K&N filter w/ open airbox and the DP race ECU from DesmoPorsche. Does anyone know which Power Commander will work for my bike with those mods? I've been told the PC V for the Multistrada 1100 is supposed to work but wondered if anyone has experience with this.

Thanks

I currently am waiting for my Desmo P reflashed Ecu. All I did was tell them what intake and exhaust I will be running. Is it same to assume that the O2 sensor will be dissabled? If so, do you just plug the fitting and disconnect the wire loom at the closest connector? I know that a trip to the dealer will be needed to fine tune.

Likely, but no guarantee.  You should just give him a quick call to make sure the O2 is disabled.  Others parameters to consider:
-disable security
-raise RPM limit modestly

Just got my reflashed ecu in the mail from pro italia for my 696. Ater install will I need to have the tps reset, or anything extra I'll need to do?

Tia

Never mind, I found that I would need to change it from eu to USA. Unfortunately I don't think my ecu took the reflash. I think I'll need to ship it back out. Ugh. All that work for nothing. I am pasting the sequence to adjust the country below (it's from another thread here)

One quick note though; when you get done, it'll be in EU mode instead of USA, so all your measurements will be in kilometers.  To fix that, just hold the 2 position selector switch up, turn the key on, then hold down for 5 seconds.  Display will now read '000000 Pro'.  Move the switch up and release until you scroll through all the zeros and it will read 'Unit set' if I remember correctly.  Hold down until it says ecu, then you can scroll through EU, UK, JAP, and finally USA.

S2R1K full Arrows open air box here

I have up graded to the DP race ecu from oem
The performance after installing the Desmo-Porsche supplied virgin unit is no less than
stunning , reset TPO and trimmed up the bike pulls like a train is crisp and has no flat spots.
It was running rich using too much fuel and dangerous when cold as it could choke and almost stall.
For the low price I would highly recommend this upgrade as opposed to re-flash   [thumbsup]
 It fells like a completely different bike leaving me with the original ecu untouched as a backup.

I finaly had a chance to take a spin around the block today. Started fine, but sputtered upon acceleration and popped on decel. I have the TPO pods with velocity stacks and just running the mid pipe until my exhaust comes in. How will I know if the re-flash did not take? Also the TPS, the bike idled fine, maybe a little high. Is there anything I can do to richen it up so my ride to the dealer is not dangerous?

Just drove it home after the tech reset the TPS, fine tuned the air-fuel and adjusted the throttle. With the TPO pod filters and all the plumbing to go with, she runs like a champ. Props to Desmo P. I can't really say there is a huge HP gain, at least not yet. I haven't ridden in almost a year, so I was kinda gentle. I did not notice any poor running conditions as others have with the pods. The whole setup was not cheap however. $1200 for the pipes, $350 for the mid-pipe, $250 for the pods, $250 for the ECU reflash, $100 for all the little filters and $100 for tuning. $2250+  what else would I have done with my money? She gets all my spare change.

Thanks for the update and glad the popping went away once the A/F got dialed in!

I just spent the day riding my 2010 M1100 ABS with a Mota-Lab/Pro-Italia ECU flash.

This is the best bang for the buck for drive-ability that I can imagine. Totally gone were the low RPM stumble, poor starting, and other M1100 "features" that we all know and love.

No joke- this bike now fuels correctly from idle to redline. Really great work guys.

How much did that run you?

And do you search motolab to find their site? To many names to deal with lol.

Here is their site: http://www.mota-lab.com/ (http://www.mota-lab.com/)

I dealt with Anthony. I think this was somewhere around $250+ shipping.
Like I said, this was a massive improvement from the stock ECU as well as the Termi slip on ECU. I would have paid $500 to get this type of mapping as it makes the bike so much easier to deal with.

Microtec added to first post:

Microtec - Aftermarket replacement ECU for several Ducati models.
http://www.microtec.cc/cms/en/motorsport-products/engine-management/m197-ecu (http://www.microtec.cc/cms/en/motorsport-products/engine-management/m197-ecu)

I have done the following modifications to my M1100: Leo Vince pipes, Flashed ECU removing O2 sensors, and I just added DucShop velocity stacks w/ K&M filters and a PCv w/ autotune.  My question is whether someone with a similar setup could send me his/her map including AFR table so my autotune will not have to work so hard to get it straight.  Feel free to back channel me if you have a PCv map you are willing to share.

Figured I would post this here.

I have a 2006 Monster S2R1000. The bike had a Leo Vince slip-on, Spark catless midpipe, and open airbox when I got it. The O2 sensor was removed and it didn't run super great. I had the ECU reflashed to DP Race spec and then the TPS/CO done. It ran pretty well but had some serious idle problems, like I've seen many others encounter. The bike would surge at idle from about 900-1600 RPM up and down, as well as stall a lot. I lived with it for a while until eventually I got sick of it. I have unplugged the stepper motor and capped off the nipples for the hoses, along with backing out the air bleed screws 1 1/4 turns each. The bike now idles perfectly and runs smooth as can be. Cold starts it needs to have the throttle held at around 2000rpm for a minute or two and then it is good. To remedy this, you can put the throttle housing from a 748/996 on and use the fast idle button, if you're too lazy to hold it yourself for a minute. Also, because there is no longer a stepper motor and the ECU is always in open loop a Power Commander for a DS1000 engine will work on the bike. Tada, issues fixed.

great thread - lot's of info.

Can you guys post the shops that are offering ecu re-flash services?  I have an '09 696.  If possible i'd like to work with a shop on the east coast to save shipping time and cost (I'm in Quebec), but am not opposed to sending it out to California or something if the quality/service is better.

Recommendations?  I prefer good service to price BTW...

[EDIT] Doh!  Just saw link for Mota-Lab above.  Any others that you'd recommend?

Thanks again!

MotoWheels

Here is another one:
http://houstonsuperbikes.com/i-8554194-ducati-ecu-flash.html (http://houstonsuperbikes.com/i-8554194-ducati-ecu-flash.html)

Houston Superbikes does not flash the Siemens ECUs, only the Marelli Units.

He recommended the Bazzaz solution here:

http://www.bazzaz.net/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=vmj_genx_img1.tpl&product_id=497&category_id=38&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=181 (http://www.bazzaz.net/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=vmj_genx_img1.tpl&product_id=497&category_id=38&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=181)

Since it apparently can overcome the closed-loop limitations by using an 02 eliminator.

So...maybe we don't need the Siemens unit to be reflashed at all, unless we specifically want to bump-up the rev limiter, or to deal with Immobilizer issues.

I just read this thread for the first time.  It sure seems like the S2R1k is the problem child in the closed loop ECU discussions.   I have a 2006 S2R1000 and I figured I'd report my findings.  

For quite awhile I had a 1000DS motor, full arrow system and open airbox with K&N drop in filter.  For tuning I ran the RB3 with 02 emulator.  It seemed to work reasonably well but the guys at the shop had issues on the dyno with it as the O2 sensor seemed to cause things to fluxuate.    Well, I had a bit of a timing belt/belt tensioner bearing issue last year.  caused a couple of valves to slap, as far as I'm concerned this is unrelated to the RB3 mapping but you never know, point is, I'm not writing this to place blame, I'm just giving some history.   Oh, original dyno sheet showed 88 whp and around 60ft-lbs in this configuration if I recall correctly, this is on ducati Indy's conservative dyno I think we were seeing 78 whp stock.

None the less, I had the motor rebuilt, new valve guides, and valves, 1080 high comp (93 octane) pistal pistons and a lightened flywheel and velocity stacks.  They put it all back together and went to map it and the RB3/02 set up was giving them fits.  Finally I located someone to do a DP ECU reflash (for less than the listed $450 btw).  They removed the 02 emulator and remapped the bike with the flashed ECU and now it runs fantastic.  

So now I'm to the meat of what I'm saying.   I never knew how much better my bike could run.  It never ran terrible but I just kept it reved up when I was in the twisties because that is where it felt right. And at the track, it was always great, but in retrospect the 02 emulator is not really involved at the track where you are generally WOT and in the revs all the time.   Anyway,  now with the low RPM, low throttle fueling sorted out more nicely the bike is amazing.  where I used to be at 6-7k rpm all the time now I feel like I never need to go above 5k rpm, and it pulls like a freight train, has over 60ft-lbs at the wheel at 3krpm and is so much smoother, I never knew it was wrong before.  I think it is now peaking around 95 whp and 67ft-lbs torque, again on ducati indy's dyno.  None the less, I can say my experience with the 02 emulator set up was less than stellar and I'm thankful that a cheaper alternative to the $1100 DP ECU came about because frankly that is a ludacris price for a non adjustable ECU that essentially unlocks your closed loop system.   If I knew what I know now, a drop in ECU replacement, or an RB3/PC3 + DP ECU would have been the way I went,  The RB3 and 02 emulator seemed like a great solution on paper but at least for the S2R1k it really didn't work correctly, at least the 02 emulator part.  In retrospect I think my bike was running pretty lean on the low end.  

Pretty interesting to read about the other solutions though, FatDuc, or just straight removal of the stepper motor, and the various ECU replacements.   Great thread. 

Looking for a "good" PCV map for a Monster 796, my set up is going to be Leo Vince SBK Carbon slipons, K&N filter. If anyone has a custom map(that they are willing to share) for a similar set, PM me please, thanks.

Just wanted to post some updates/results from what I have going on...

09 M1100s - DP Cams (degreed), HMF slipons, Modded stock mid pipe (removed flapper, welded holes), DP ECU, Power Commander V, Autotune, DP Air filter, MWR Power Up airbox mod.

My bike already ran GREAT with just the DP ECU/Slipons/DP Air filter but of course I wanted MORE. I added the DP Cams, mid pipe mod and PCV and I was a bit disapointed considering the time/$$ spent. I was running the only downloadable map available @ Dynojet and figured it would be close enough. How wrong I was... After aquiring a WASP map (thanks Ung) I saw some improvement. I then aquired an autotune, removed my stock o2's and installed the DJ wideband ones. I created a new map I simply called "all 10's". I just set the Fuel table at 10 throughout and set the AFR table in an educated guess of below 3.5 KRPM and or less than 40% percent throttle of 14.0 and more than 3.5K RPM and or more than 40% throttle at 13.7. I ran it for a hundred miles or so and accepted the changes and it really began to wake up. I did this again a couple more times over a couple of days and got to iteration 3 and must say I was quite satisfied with the results, more power and BETTER fuel mileage. Iteration 4.0 includes AFR of 13.4 for throttle above 60% in RPMs above 4K. It is pretty dialed in as of now and I really like the snappy -ness. Not a fan however of the airbox SOUND, it is annoying at certain rpm's. I am also running into the rev limiter A LOT more so going to have to re-learn shifting times when WFO.

Just a bit of additional info, I have not had my stock ECU reflashed for open system and the DP ECU is not made for it either so my CEL is on for now but has had no effect on the enging running. I plan to put my stock O2's back on after I am satisified with the map the Autotune is creating for me.

Just read all 20 pages, sadly not a lot info for the 09+ 696/796/1100 ECUs. From research elsewhere it seems Rexxer (Redline motorsports is USA distributor) is a viable option to tune entire rpm range, remove o2s, flappers, rev limit, etc. Anyone have any direct experience with this on the newer Siemens ECUs??

This is from their[ReXxer] webiste:

"RexXer "User" using Siemens M3C / Mitsubishi Melco type-ECU

IMPORTANT INFORMATION: We wish to inform you that when using the RexXer User with the Siemens ECU M3C for the Ducati models Monster 696/796/1100 + EVO (all versions) and Hypermotard 796/1100 EVO SP (all versions) and the Melco Mitsubishi ECU, as used for the Ducati MTS1200 (all versions) and Diavel (all versions), you cannot read the standard mapping by using the OBD plug, because these types of ECU do not allow this function. The RexXer User reads only a dummy includes the serial number which is stored in the ECU, to get's the access.

However, we can read all standard mappings of the affected models with a special process to be able to provide these files for free when buying a RexXer User to play back if the standard file is needed in the future. This must then be written to the RexXer User and programmed to the ECU after in the same way as a tuning-mapping. Full instructions of this operation are now included in the delivery content of the appropriate models!

Due to this, the RexXer Users cannot be automatically “unlocked” by the customers themselves, as was the case for previous ECU types in the past. If the RexXer user is to be used for a different model, the standard mapping must first be played on to the ECU, as mentioned earlier and then the unit must be sent to the dealer or directly to Daniele Moto International. We will unlock the device free of charge and send it back within 15-20 working days to the customer."

Remember that both, Siemens/Continental and Mitsubishi/Melco ECUs, reset the TPS everytime you put the ignition in the ON position and the AFR is corrected within a certain RPM/MAP where the O2 sensors work in close loop; this is aprox from about 2k~4500 RPM and up to about 70Kpa MAP; so unless you were to find wideband O2 sensor to fit the holes of the OEM ones . . .

You would need to contact either Redline or Technoresearch Inc direclty in order to let them know what mods you have on your bike, where you live in order for them to "write' a map for your bike . .. just remember, once you do this, your ECU can only be read by the ReXxer unit . . . So if  you go on a road trip, you would need to always your ReXxer with you.

And to fine tune it, find a shop with a dyno  [Dolph] [thumbsup]

http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=41934.0 (http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=41934.0)
If you use the search function in this forum you'll get almost 2 pages of results. The above link is one of the most informative. Myself and Ung were the first to receive this product and helped trouble shoot the initial bugs.

To any one in the southern California area and have any of the following bikes please get in touch with my self (on this forum or call 909-597-8300 EXT 103) as we would like to get your bike in for R&D work. With lending your bike to Bazzaz you will receive a free Z-FI fuel control unit and custom map built on our newly released Bazzaz Principia dyno!  waytogo The bikes we are lookings for are as follows:

Panigale 2013
998 02-04
hyperstrada 2013

FWIW, I just learned the the older ECUs (5am Magneti Marelli) can now be reprogrammed by some tune shops by purchasing a software key.  Specifically a shop near me has offered to do a full custom dyno-tune using the stock ECU.

Software key is being priced at $250.  Dyno-tune is being priced at $600+

This seems similar to the ECU reflashing available, but with the added functionality of a customized map.

Here's the website.  I'm having it done this weekend and will report back in early May when I get my bike back:

http://www.europeancycleservices.com/service/dyno-and-tuning/ (http://www.europeancycleservices.com/service/dyno-and-tuning/)

OK 09 Monster 1100 DP ecu(slip-ons), TPO Beast R stacks, Newly fitted QD Exbox exhaust. 1st ride last night felt down on power but rideable. Headed to the dealer to have the ecu reflashed to delete exhaust flapper and possibly remove o2 sensors out of the loop as well. Any thoughts about pros and cons on having it w or w/o O2s on Ducatis???

J

IMO there are no benefits to retaining the lambda sensors besides *maybe* emissions.  You need them out of the ECUs brain in order to gain full control of the closed loop portion of the map and get proper low RPM fueling.  Without removing them the ECU will override any fueling changes in this lower RPM closed loop mode.

Gotcha, so remove them and do what? Tune ecu or go with PC?

With your mods and eliminating the O2 sensors, tune the ECU, you can revert to OEM if  ???

So I swapped over to evo exhaust on my 796 and did the MWR airbox mod this weekend (reflash already done). Its running a little rough under 3500 rpm now so need to figure out solution to that.

Considered pcv to tune the lower range, but Dynojet says they dont know if it will work for 2013 model... only tested up to 2011. Anyone know if it works on '13? Seems like it would with no real changes to the bike between the years.

who did the re-flash?

Matt @ Motowheels

w/Rexxer?

Yes with Rexxer

weird, Rexxer maps are very close, have you contacted him and explained

Yeah, said I might need to adjust throttle bodies...

Can have tech at dealership do that but not sure if that will fix it. Thought about PCV just to fine tune everything. Local dyno shop puts system and dyno/labor at nearly $1000! That's a bit expensive right now so hope the TB sync fixes it.

TB is done automatically by the ECU every time you shut the bike off with the key . . . I could be wrong, but, Continental ECUs work like that . . .

I've heard this but nobody can provide proof to back this claim up.  Some say only the dealer can reset the TPS with their proprietary software, some say you can on/off the ignition 3 times to reset it, some say it automatically resets at every ignition cycle...which is true and which is interwebs BS?  who knows.  I have yet to see ACTUAL written proof of any of these methods...

a few tech from different dealerships have verbally confirmed this . . . even the 'aftermarket' DDS software[manufactured by the same company that manufactured the DDS] wont do it and is an exact copy of the OEM software . . .

I spoke with a ducati master tech from motocora and he confirmed that by doing on/off the ignition 3 times resets the TPS for the new monsters!

I removed my termi with DP ecu because sold my bike , they are pratically brand new only 250 mi on them. PM if interested. thanks.

You can calibrate the TPS with a PCV and eliminate the O2 sensors using these:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Oxygen-o2-sensor-eliminator-Ducati-Monster-Hypermotard-696-796-1100-/251374121997?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&vxp=mtr&hash=item3a8710b40d (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Oxygen-o2-sensor-eliminator-Ducati-Monster-Hypermotard-696-796-1100-/251374121997?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&vxp=mtr&hash=item3a8710b40d)

Those look like very simple in line versions. Very tidy. Do they set the closed loop AFR to 13.6? Are they Dynojet Optimizers and can they be opened and adjusted?
Chlikes

Edit: They are O2 Eliminators by Smart Moto.

Hello,

I'm new to the forum.  I just purchased a 2007 S2R 1000 with 14k miles on it.  The previous owner installed a full Arrow CF exhaust on it, but no Power commander.  So I purchased a PCIII and took it to my performance shop for a custom map.

Got it back and noticed I still had popping issues on deceleration in the low rpm ranges.  Top end seemed much better though.  After finding this forum and doing a little research I discovered that the PCIII has no effect in the "closed loop" rpm ranges.

So... thanks to this thread I have ordered a Fat duc O2 manipulator to help out in the closed loop range.  Hoping this helps to reduce the popping on decel.  Thanks for the great info.

Regards,
Sean

I have ordered a set of these Greek style O2 eliminators. They appear to run along the lines of the Bazzaz O2 eliminators which are not just Optimizers ala Power Commander, but close off the circuit and allow the O2 sensors to be removed and the bung holes sealed off for a tidy result.

The Bazzaz version gives a very rich AFR with plug fouling results requiring up to 20% less fuel to be tuned out via the Bazzaz or PCV devices according to the Bazzaz blurb. The Bazzaz version are claimed to allow mapping over the closed loop section with O2 sensors deleted without a reflash. The PCV Optimizers run at an economic and reasonable (but on the lean side) 13.6 AFR which can give me about 200kms out of a tank of HWY riding and being a good citizen. Not bad. These run in line of the O2 sensors which must stay.

If the Greek style O2 eliminators ("Smartmoto" brand) are ok and don't chew too much juice at their base setting (and really let the PCV or Bazzaz map work in the normally closed loop stage), then that would be a great thing. What I can't ascertain is whether they just do the Optimizer thing sans O2 sensors or actually let you map over them so to speak. We'll see.

One thing of note is that the PC and Smartmoto optimizers dont have an external earth wire to the frame or battery like the Bazzaz version. Im guessing this emulates the O2 sensor being earthed to the motor via the exhaust. Interesting then how the Smartmoto version eliminate the O2 sensors without this and still tells the ECU that all is good.
Your thought are welcome.

Oba! The O2 eliminators from Smart Moto arrived!
Ok, an update. They are definitely not an in line unit and intended to eliminate the O2 sensors. They are very tidy. I do not know if they provide a set AFR baseline input to the ECU or require the PCV map to do its thing. Im gonna find out.

From little of what I've read, they emulate the resistance of the O2/Lambda sensors; couldn't find at what load/rpm . . . pkease let us know

I just tested them on my regular low end and lower midrange course (20-55 mph). The bike is definitely smoother with the ECU closed loop surging removed. The idle and off idle rpm are more stable too, with only the stepper motor doing it's thing, but much more subtly now.

It's nice not to have the ECU second guessing my throttle inputs now that the O2 sensor intrusiveness is removed. In the tight stuff, I have better throttle control and don't need to slip the clutch as much. It's great not having the ECU fighting me! With the closed loop intact, even with optimizers, the bike was difficult to ride in wet or greasy conditions and when you add the light engine internals, a bit unsafe. It felt like ride by wire turned evil. I will have more confidence now with the bike actually safer to ride and since I take the GLW riding with me much of the time, this is a good thing.

I can only guess the AFR at present, but from the plug colours, it must be similar to the PCV O2 Optimizer's 13.6 rather then the Bazzaz Eliminators very very rich, plug fouling AFR (possibly sub 12 from how black the plugs were). So still on the lean side for economy down low in the 20-25% throttle/sub 4500ish rpm range. I need all the economy I can get in the cruising section of the map, but above that, the PCV kicks in with a dyno derived map. [evil]

Good to know . . .

Good testing Tony! 👍🏻

Further testing today.
Bazzaz eliminators use more fuel but give plenty of response. The Smartmoto eliminators are on the leaner side and very smooth but very economical, but not as snappy response. I would have stuck with the Bazzaz version but after an hour's riding they activated the check engine light. The Smartmoto version did not. I can only speculate why, but the DP ECU was onto the Bazzaz units. Maybe the Bazzaz ZFi unit needs to be installed to trick the ECU, but that's a guess. This has been a consistent pattern when testing them. If anyone can explain what the ECU is picking up I'd appreciate it.

Tonight I will test a theory.
The Smartmoto  eliminators do run lean but really work well and only marginally correct the AFR. They appear to be eliminators first and optimizers second (if at all). The plug colours and performance show a lean but just barely ok AFR. The response is flat, but not dangerously lean but with no horribly lean or closed loop surging. I am differentiating between the surging caused by a dangerously lean AFR and just the self modulating of the ECU in closed loop mode. The light weight and light internals of the Evo 1100 bikes really expose this.
 I have reconnected the Power Commander dual channel Optimizers and connected the Smartmoto eliminators to them. I know the PC Optimizers are set for a 13.6 AFR in the closed loop range and I was happy with their performance except for the ECU's closed loop intrusion on my throttle control.
So the idea is the PC Optimizers modulate the AFR and the Smartmoto devices eliminate the O2 sensors, by joining forces. If my theory is correct the worst thing that could happen is a too rich condition and at best, a reasonable AFR with no closed loop ECU intrusion.
Just testing at idle there is no check engine light. It will be hot today so I will test in the cool of the evening.

Well, Doctor, we await your diagnosis

Dr, Dr give us the news, you got a, bad case of tuning blues....

Sorry, first thing that popped into my head! Lol!

With the set up tested as above the bike ran like shit. :P So much for my theory.. [laugh]
No check engine light but back firing on part throttle. Whatever signal was being sent to the ECU, it didnt like it. I stopped after 1km, connected the PC Optimizer and switched back to the Smartmoto devices alone. Did about 50 kms through the hills. Ran fine but maybe a bit soft.

Strangely, the AFR is getting richer the more I ride it. What does this mean? The only clue I have is a statement from the Bazzaz blurb for their O2 Eliminators and ZFi unit which says that it may take some time for the AFR to stabilize once the O2 sensors are eliminated. Does this mean the learned parameters of the former closed loop system take time to be overidden?

Could be . . .

The Smartmoto units, despite looking so simple, are doing more than I thought. By that, I mean more than just telling the ECU that the O2 sensors are there. They must be influencing AFR or at least allowing the PCV to do its work.

As per your seat of the pants dyno report, it seems to be that way or at least, the engine is "tuning itself"

I'll run the Hellenic Eliminators and monitor the plugs, fuel economy and power characteristics.
If Im unhappy I can go back to the O2 sensors and PC dual channel Optimizers until I get the beastie on a dyno. Only thing with running optimized closed loop and O2 sensors, is that while giving vivid acceleration, it also has that annoying ECU intrusion interfering with my throttle control.

Well, I'll need to purchase a set for an 848 that had the wiring coming of the sensor chewed by squirrels or rats or something . . guy doesn't want a new sensor

Tested again tonight and ran stronger with better part throttle response.. Maybe the ECU does take time to stabilize the AFR.

Their site says can be used to replace a bad O2 sensor. [thumbsup]

that's the idea . . .

Might have fuel block learn like a car.

I was wondering about that. The car guys talk of cars settling into new tunes. I just wondered how it could be possible with the O2 sensors removed (and less sensors overall).

I can report that the Smartmoto O2 eliminators and PCV are working better and better over time or number of start ups (not sure which). Bike is getting stronger in the sub 4000 rpm range with a smoothness akin to very well tuned FCRs. I dont have the theoretical knowledge to explain it but can only surmise that the PCV&DP ECU are taking over that rpm range via the action of the Smartmoto units. The Smartmoto units have performed the best (so far!) out of the PC dual channel Optimizers, PC individual Optimizers and Bazzaz O2 Eliminators. The Bazzaz O2 Eliminators worked well but got
" found out " by the ECU after about an hours riding each time I tested them.
I got another pair to put in the tool kit. Very cool little jiggers.

NOT available for 848 . ..  [bang] [bang] [bang]

Nice to know it's working out

Update.
I had to go back to using the O2 Sensors with the PC Dual Channel Optimizers. :P

After a long ride with the SmartMoto O2 Eliminators the Check Engine light came on and after scrolling through found no specific error, just like with the Bazzaz Eliminators. The Light does not come on with the PC Optimizers, either Dual Channel or twin individual units. With both the Bazzaz and Smartmoto Eliminators, it's as if the ECU knows something is up but doesn't know exactly what it is. They're onto us! [evil]

Theory (possible bullshit) time. ;D
Maybe, it's because all seems ok when I am just using Power Commander devices, but as soon as I mix and match, maybe the ECU picks up a not so perfect interface of devices. That's my uneducated guess based on the fact I am using a PCV. Or, maybe (as Ung put's it), the ECU cant detect little white lies (Optimizers), but cant help but detect big fat lies (O2 Eliminators). I have yet to try these units on a bike with no PCV or PCIII, so just a theory.

Maybe the only way to really go undetected with removing the O2 sensors is to reflash the ECU ala Rexxer as Carlos has suggested. Don't lie to the ECU, just brainwash it! [laugh]

I've emailed a couple of local tuners about this stuff and will let you know what they think. If anyone local with a Seimens ECU, (but no PCV or PCIII), wants to try some O2 eliminators I'm happy to let you borrow them to test.

Edited.

I received responses of Brad (bikeboy) and Todd (Intake Express) on this issue, two accomplished and expert EFI tuners down here. To be fair, I will not quote them, but give a very brief overview of their responses. It appears a reflash is still the best way to circumvent the minefield that is eliminating Vs deceiving the closed loop system. I will give more detail via PM if anyone wants to know.

On the other hand, my PCV Dual Channel Optimizer works ok, as did the two individual PC units. But we know that ok not good enough for some!

Carlos Darkmonster has advocated the reflash for a long time, but I wanted to learn first hand for myself how these systems work in relation to the incumbent ECU. Not the high end theory (way beyond my area of education), but the practical tuning applications. I am an older carb guy and this was an important process for me. A generational transition so to speak. ;)

Iirc  earlier in this thread CDawg put forward the theory that the ECU checks in on the O2 sensors at a given interval. If this is true, then after a given period of time (or miles?), the ECU will not receive the appropriate response to it's signal and throw a code/engine check light. Makes sense to me. My experience with both the Bazzaz and SmartMoto Eliminators, when tested on a regular route makes sense of that theory. They both worked fine until "found out". The O2 Optimizers in line with the O2 sensors were not detected.

One thing such eliminator devices are potentially useful for is as a spare in case an O2 sensor craps itself on a ride. But like a lightweight spare tyre, not for the long term. May be necessary to pull over, turn off the motor wait, and then resume until you get home.

Appears a reflash is on the agenda down the track.

Cheers.

I need to get a new ECU or very reliable used 5AM/2 to reflash, I will delete IMMO and ask for DP Map for my 620 . . . with maybe, maybe 500rpm overrun

As a base map before dyno time (due to the 750cc)?

As per former Ducati Svc Mngr[guy in Italy],he told me I can go to 750 with my ECU since my mapping is better and the "street" map will work perfectly with the 750cc conversion, I just want the extra oomph of the DP map for the way it creates the torque and keeps it "flatter" for a few more rpm

Sadly I can only send ECU and engine not the whole bike, we have NO dyno here

So maybe a data logger or on board AFR meter?

none of that . . .

I tried the Fat Duc on my 2007 S2R 1000 that has a Full Arrow exhaust system, and while it did improve things, I wasn't satisfied. It still pops too much for my liking on deceleration.  I sent my ECU to Motowheels for a Rexxer re-flash.  I had them disable the O2 sensor and load a custom map for the arrow system. 

When the temps improve I will be testing the re-flashed ECU/map.  I also bought a Power Commander III and installed that as well with the Zero map loaded for the time being.  I figure... If the re-flashed map still needs tweaking, I will take it in for a dyno run and custom mapping.  At least with the re-flash, it should solve the dilemma with  the closed loop, and then I can use the PCIII to fine tune.

Fingers crossed.

Sounds like a good plan. Let us know how it goes.
Cheers.

The temps hit 70 this weekend and I finally got a chance to test out the Rexxer remapped ECU on my S2R 1000 with full Arrow system.  After 3 hours of riding I have to say that I am very happy with the results.  There is no more popping on deceleration with the throttle closed, no stalling at stop lights, and no noticeable flat spots. 

I do still have some popping on deceleration when I do not completely close the throttle (around 5% throttle).  Also, I didn't have the throttle position sensor reset yet.  For those of you with more knowledge about the Power Commander... Can I use it's throttle position sensor reset to override the ECU's now that I have the Rexxer reflash with disabled O2 sensor?  I'm currently running a zero map in the PCIII as I wanted to see how the reflash map ran before considering a dyno run and custom map.

Sorry for not replying. I think you should post this question in the Tech or mods sections. I don't know if the PC tps reset will successfully over ride the ecu but others here should.

Hey LD
I have come to the view that a Rexxer flash is a good start but that getting the PCV dyno tuned is the next step. I would shop around for a good high performance intake kit to go with your full system and get the dyno tune for peak performance. Like many others, I feel the intake mods have a great effect on the AFR so I would not do them without a dyno tune.

Rereading this to refresh my memory. May have an M1100Evo soon and need to revisit this type of ECU tuning.
Excellent info. [thumbsup]

1100 Evo. Track tuning only of course.
PCV with dyno map, Smartmoto O2 eliminators.

O2 Optimisers appear no longer available, but Eliminators are plentiful, so what gives? As Ungeheuer put it, sweet little lies Vs big fat ones. Could it be that Eliminators are clearly and overtly track use only as per the mfrs caveat while Optimisers interfere with the function of an oem component?
For example Dynojet no longer supply Optimisers but provide Eliminators for various models.

That aside, the Smartmoto Eliminators have operated in a controlled test for over an hour without being rejected. Maybe the run needs to exceed 60 miles/100 kms for the ECU to ping the O2 sensors for diag operation? We do know that unplugging a sensor throws a code immediately, so I'm hopeful and we'll see how this goes.
Track time is expensive.

BTW: where is he these days?

I think he might be doing a lot of travelling and very busy.

Ung is missing, and missed.

Sorry for long post & to rehash an old thread but I am having an issue for the last 5 months and I am slowly losing my mind and its all just to have a quick shifter....

Now I know its not a Monster however I do own a monster along with a few other Ducati's but reading this thread I have see a lot of issue that I believe is connected.

Bike: 2012 Hyper 1100 EVO SP

Fitted with a wasp kit, DPECU, PCV and all was good, bit hard to start and would die unless it was warmed up, but it was good,

Wanted to upgrade to the new 950SP was told I was crazy and the 1100 EVOSP is the best?  But I wanted a Q/S

So fitted Rapid Bike & RB Q/S with CNC rear sets, all was good, infact it was amazing for about 3-4 rides, then ECL came on over and over and was the Vert Cyl o2 sensor?
Spoke to RB they said its strange so turn off the auto adjust and go again, same problem?

Next took off o2 sensors and put Smart Moto 02 sensor Eliminator plugs, bike ran like shit, needed another tune to fix it, bike ran good, like before but not great.

Now ECL comes on again with Vert & Horz Cylinder ECL and Immobiliser Codes??


RB are saying its a Bike Fault and if I swap back to PC5 it will be the same? Im at a loss, does anyone have any help, advice or guidance they can impart?

RR

You said you have a dp ecu installed, most of those disable the o2 sensors.  Have you tried removing the rapid bike and seeing if the faults return.  I have never been a fan of the piggybacking ecu tunners, but the quick shifter limits your options.  Is the evo a merrelli ecu?

Tomorrow I will remove the RB and reinstall the PCV with the 02 sensors back in like it was before and see what happens, if its good, I will buy a PC Q/S and the balance of life will be restored …..

The only issue also is if I do run the O2 eliminators I will need to retune it and even though I don't pay for tunes its a time thing? 

Stay Tuned! (Pardon the pun)

RR

Evo has a Siemens (spelling) ECU. With these ECU's (including the DP version), the O2 sensors stay on unless you fit O2 Eliminators or get a reflash.

Another device is the O2 Optimizer. O2 Optimizers work inline with functioning O2 sensors to trick them while O2 Eliminators deactivate them (whether they are removed or not).
The beauty of Optimizers is that you dont need a retune and they trick the ECU to set the AFR around 13.6 in the closed loop section of the map until the PCV takes over in the open loop section of the map.

Eliminators do require you to map over them, so dont expect them to work like an Optimizer.

Got ya, well so far so good, have swapped back to the PC5 with 02 sensors pluged back in and its running fine and no codes, but will be going on a longer ride tonight so that will be the true test, only drama is not having a Q/S but if this works I will have to buy a stand alone Q/S, so now the hunt is on for a unit that is good and easy to set up, any advice?


RR

 I thought PC made one to tap into the PCV iirc.
https://www.dynojet.com/quickshifter/

Well an update, the PCV runs perfect, no codes and all is good,

so there is something wrong in how the RB works with the hyper, a real shame as I have spent thousands in trying to get it right but that's life I spose, you win some you lose some.


Only option now is to put a Q/S in and be done with it.


RR

Tested PC O2 Optimiser against the Smartmoto O2 Eliminators on a modified M1100Evo today. The bike has a dyno tuned PCV, velocity stack intake kit, DP ECU, Termis and deactivated exhaust servo.
The test covered the closed loop rpm/throttle range that these devices deal with. One completely excludes the information from the O2 sensors and one works with the sensors to trick the ECU to be more generous.

The difference in how the respective devices worked with ECU was quite vivid. The PC Optimizer provided very strong acceleration and immediate and very aggressive throttle response. The bike surged forward spinning up very quickly with small throttle adjustments. Small throttle turns yielded big surges of torque. Very gratifying. The bike went from angry to rage.

The Smartmoto devices allowed a dyno tune map to apply to closed loop rpm/throttle and was very soft and smooth, a bit like urban or wet mode that some bikes have. This made throttle control easy and safe. The motor felt flat in comparison, but with easy throttle modulation and very smooth power delivery.

So wild Vs mild.
I went with wild 8)

That's cool!

I would still like to tune my ECU, but I haven't quite made the mods you have on my '13 796.  I don't know if you can qualify a 796's torque as either angry or rage, but it would be fun to have a little more response.  :)

What mods were they again?

Simple enough... Arrow slipons, which helped the bottom end immensely, a Duc-ee servo eliminator.  I actually have the mid-pipe from a 696, so I can get rid of the flapper completely... it's in the To Do pile.

It still has the factory intake, which I'm reluctant to fool with.  I have a second ECU I picked up, I want to send it off and have it remapped, it's my understanding that some maps will eliminate the O2 sensors completely.

Yes O2 delete is an option and mapping applied to that rpm/throttle % zone.

I guess I have to axe... what, exactly, are the downsides to leaving the O2 sensors?

If they are programmed out of the equation with a reflash then they are fine just sitting there.  You can remove them and fit bungs.

The other route is to actually use them via the Powercommander route. The Powercommander/Dynojet O2 Optimizer unit actually makes them work really well imo. I have tested that route with a PCV dyno tuned for performance and have been very happy with the results on two Siemens ECU controlled Evo 1100 motors. The two Powercommander modules work together, one covers the closed loop zone and one covers the open loop zone and I am a convert to this method.

Others have gone the reflash route and are happy. I think the reflash route works best if the map is created for your bike via a dyno tune.

One other thing, I read recently that the O2 sensors can be damaged if left in without being connected. I can't verify this at present. If this is true then it's best to remove them and fit bungs if the reflash deletes their input.

If they're disconnected, why would it matter? If you don't want them...?

I was thinking in case of selling or putting back to stock for any jurisdictional reasons.